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Free Thinking : The community

From tenantspin, residents John and Margo

Crime – Causes and Cure

  • John McGuirk
  • 10 Aug 06, 05:57 PM

The country we live in at the moment seems to be in a state of lawlessness unparalleled in my lifetime, and nobody seems to have the answer to it. Yet the solutions seem to be obvious to the majority of the older population.

There was an old adage in the past that ‘the punishment should fit the crime’; this no longer seems the case when a sentence to life imprisonment carries a proviso that the offender could be free in four to five years. Even then the time is served in prisons on a par with a three star hotel with privileges like T.V., poolrooms, gyms and access to things not available to some law abiding citizens.

While not advocating that criminals should be kept in prehistoric conditions prisons should be places you would not like to experience more than once.

It would also appear that the politically correct and human rights organizations need over hauling as they seem to have gone too much in favour of the wrongdoer. Some politicians are for pulling out of the European Human Rights Act and replacing it with one of our own. Logic suggests that if one person takes the life of another then they forfeit any claim to rights in any form.

Another reason for a lot of today’s wrongdoing is lack of respect at all levels and this should be instilled at an early stage in life. Again a body of unknown faces has decreed that parents should not smack children on the legs.

Teacher’s means of punishment are curtailed. We now have schoolchildren carrying knives into school. We have teachers being killed by pupils, children killing other children. These are things that were unheard of 70 years ago when a proper punishment regime was in place in schools.

I experienced all the things that are taboo today. A slap from my parents or the cane at school for misbehaviour. It did not turn me into a vicious criminal as I grew up because as I got older I understood why I was punished and was actually thankful that somebody was around to show me the error of my ways. There are thousands like me still around, they are called pensioners. Yet the advocators of the go easy on the wrongdoer theme have only been around I should imagine for an average of 25 to 30 years.

My main worry is not for myself but for my grandchildren and what kind of world I am leaving for them. Whoever it is with their finger on the button regarding these matters has got to get it right soon. Either go back to the old school of punishment or follow the path of the ‘understand the criminal’ brigade. Having experienced both I know which way I would pick and would start building new prisons now.

Comments

  1. At 09:49 PM on 10 Aug 2006, Neil Newby wrote:

    Wy not give are children a new insentive away from comiting crime by introducing a passport scheme, the insentive being a free 10 year passport at 18 if no criminal convictions & if no coutions up to the age of 16 mabie a reduction in driving lessons and special offers on fammialy holidays in Britan.The Govermant funding saved on crimanal damages and cort costs can be used in funding beter insentives ?.

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  2. At 07:01 AM on 11 Aug 2006, Fitz wrote:

    Whilst I agree with the original posters sentiments, the interesting question is WHY of course!

    Why have young kids and teenagers become lawless?

    I was never lawless when I was a teenager in the 50's.

    social norms and rules and discipline were different then. In fact the classes in England have always reacted different to each other.

    The rich and upper class could always be 'lawless' in their own way - they just covered it up or paid to get out of it - watch some of the series of 'Brideshead Revisited' to understand what I mean.

    The upper middleclass were attempting to make money and better themselves and become as 'lawless' as the rich - they needed to maintain discipline for themselves and their family - it was a sign of getting on improving.

    And the underdog the working class - well I think they were kept in check and kept their own in check by political, industrial and social controls - get out of line and you will lose your livelihood!

    What has changed - I think the idle rich have lost respect from the lower ranks - we don't need to emulate them anymore apart from getting the cash! And their own kids have even rebelled and said 'enough of this - this is a sham and I have the money to do what I like anyway'

    The middleclass have probably still remained the most stable - look at any distribution of crime and social unrest and you will see that the middleclass are still in the minority of crime and striving to aspire.

    The working class I think have done a complete paradigm shift and said in essence " we've had enough of the idle rich and the middle class who try to control us we are our own group and if you don't like it we'll strike. I think from this ethos the increased independence of the youth has materialised and they have copied their parents and run amock.

    Look at any stats produced on crime in general in young people - 30% of the total youth population and largely working class.

    I'm not knocking working class just in case you think I am - I came from that stable and progressed a bit - but these are the facts.

    There are rich fellow crimes - at executive levels - middle class crimes and working class crimes - and I guess we can all look at each other and say "he's doing it so will I"

    But the bottom line is - look at the total infrastructure of this country UK, and then all the figures - and you will find that the drug stats, crime stats, etc etc - still are below 50% - yes they may be growing and that is of concern but what about all those citizens in the above 50% range who are still by enlarge law abiding citizens? -

    what happens to them - why of course - they don't make front page news!

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  3. At 10:21 AM on 11 Aug 2006, jason wrote:

    The time of the judges has come, read 2000ad ( info at www.2000adonline.com ) for tips !


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  4. At 10:31 AM on 11 Aug 2006, John McGuirk wrote:

    I feel that the thinking seems to be right but it gives youngsters the wrong impression.

    To be rewarded just for doing the right thing gives them the wrong outlook on life, when they grow up they believe they should be rewarded for everything they do. Being able to do the right thing brings its own rewards.

    The reason teenagers are in a lawless state at the moment orginates from the home. There is no doubt about that. People who have the most impression on your life are often your parents, I think that's the biggest factor why youths are lawless today.

    Also in schools there is some leadership but teachers are limited. A teachers hands are tied by new laws brought out by the authorities and children quickly realise this and take advantage.

    The rich and upper classes being lawless in their own way is very true, however they are more able to avoid the penalties of their lawlessness.

    The middle classes really don't have a reason to be lawless they don't have the struggle like the lower classes and don't have the pressure of the upper classes.

    The working class after a hundred years of being kept down suddenly became educated and realised there were things in life they were entitled to like everybody.

    At the moment they are possibly indulging themselves a bit too much. I'm not an expert and there may be other factors that more experienced people could solve.

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  5. At 10:42 AM on 11 Aug 2006, jason wrote:

    Your right but namby pamby liberals have ruined it all, bring back the cane, the local bobby,public flogging etc.

    Drugs are a big problem, best they flog drug dealers in public and then lock em up for 10 years.


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  6. At 11:24 AM on 11 Aug 2006, jason wrote:

    "My main worry is not for myself but for my grandchildren and what kind of world I am leaving for them"

    www.vhemt.org

    tell them not to breed :)

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  7. At 10:43 PM on 12 Aug 2006, tom wrote:

    We already lock more people up than everbefore and more than any other country in Europe/ We have introduced restricting laws and ASBO`s yet none of this seems to make things any better and for most people they feel they are worse. just getting tougher doesn`t appear to work.
    At the same time we don`t get engaged with our neighbours and expect someone else to deal with this stuff usually the police.
    Perhaps if we spent less time condemning and more getting involved we might see some improvement,

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  8. At 02:05 PM on 15 Aug 2006, John McGuirk wrote:

    The answer to locking up so many people is that we simply must build more prisons. Cutting people off from normal life should still be the biggest deterrent in preventing crime.

    At the same time, there should be a much bigger police presence on the streets. No police visible obviously makes a potential criminal or burglar feel safer at what he's doing.

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  9. At 11:12 AM on 17 Aug 2006, jason wrote:

    tis true,in prison,folk do not commit crimes against the larger community,as,they are, locked up !

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  10. At 02:22 PM on 18 Aug 2006, John McGuirk wrote:

    That's true. But prison should not take the form of five star hotels.

    A prisoner should realise what he's missed while he's been locked up. Making them less liable to reoffend.

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  11. At 11:52 AM on 22 Aug 2006, Claudia Kappenberg wrote:

    I would like to add a comment to John McGuirk's initial blog and his proposal that 'the punishment should fit the crime'. This is a common sense idea, but the question is of course what that might mean in reality. To illustrate my point I would like to give an example of a different justice system I experienced while in New Zealand in 1990. I was living there at the time and had my car stolen. The car was found not long after in a terrible state as it had been used by a group of youngsters for a joy ride. The police was able to track down those responsible who came from a Maori community in the South Island. Not long before the incident New Zealand had passed a new law for youth crime, which made it possible that youngsters be 'tried' by their community and that the community would decide on the level of punishment. The incentive of this law came from the traditional structure of the Maori society and the New Zealand Government has over the past few years taken on board a number of such customs, rules and regulations within for example the justice system, healthcare and education.

    In the case of the car robbery I, the victim of this crime, was also invited to assist the hearing, so that the delinquents would meet those who they have affected. Unfortunately I was not able to attend but I was very impressed by the whole proceedings. I was informed subsequently that the youngsters had been given tasks within the community to make up for their wrong doing. I have no doubt that standing up in front of the extended community in order to acknowledge their crime would have been an effective and long lasting measure. For this to work it is essential of course that this community has an effective structure of elders and spokes people.

    I believe that this is an example of a meaningful way of dealing with crime particularly at a young age and at this 'low level' of criminality. I would argue that a pervasive anonymity within many, and including the British legal system are seriously counterproductive. If we consider that social anonymity is also a cause of much frustration, anger and crime and it does not help that our society aims to counter a problem with the same means that have contributed to the problem in the first place.

    Whilst in New Zealand I experienced further effective examples of the inclusion of the wider family or community in for example psychiatric care, whereby a distressed patient would not simply be admitted by themselves and dealt with individually. The clinic would call on the extended family to be included and present as much as possible. Extremely supportive measures and rituals would also be in place during therapeutic sessions; if someone had something difficult to say, someone else might stand behind them to provide emotional support.

    The notion, and experience, of being part of something, of belonging, and of having a greater social force behind oneself is unfortunately not very much embedded in contemporary Western cultural, social and legal systems. The justice system probably aims to enforce exactly this idea, but the reality of its proceedings tell a very different story.

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  12. At 10:10 PM on 24 Aug 2006, Carole wrote:

    My family were certainly not well-off. We had few home-comforts. But we had an abundance of love. We would gather around the piano for hymns. Or sit by the fire and listen to my father reciting poetry.We played cricket in the garden-all of us.³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ was all about the four of us.My mother and father were always together, and we were a very happy little family.

    When my daughter was tiny, we were always making things, singing,drawing, painting, reading...Even as I pushed her in the pram, we would sing together or recite little poems. My husband left us when my daughter was about 7. We had to live in a horrid flat with very little money and no car. But we were happy and content.I loved every moment of her childhood. And in my daughter's wedding speech 2 weeks ago, she actually spoke of her happy childhood, and she thanked me for it.

    I taught my daughter how to respect others,to be kind and gentle,not to laugh at the afflictions of others...

    She is now the most delightful 32 year old woman, with a promising profession to which she is dedicated, and the most charming character. She might not have turned out like this had I not bothered with her upbringing. We had very little going for us when she was young, but the outcome has been wonderful.

    I brought my daughter up, single-handedly, with the same standards that I was brought up with.

    My immediate neighbours, on the other hand, are the archetypal hooligans of today. They have cars, bikes, a swimming pool, every known gadget for easy living, furniture that seems to change with the seasons(I see it coming and going!!)...yet they are the neighbours from hell. Their 3 boys are all problematic, and so are the parents. The youngest child once told me that he had never been read to, or shown how to read, write, or draw! They have all the material advantages that my daughter and I never had(nor my parents).Yet they have made a mockery out of being parents. I have often thought that if their sons had been my sons, how different their lives would have been.

    I therefore put a very large part of the blame on parents for the atrocious behaviour of today's youth.

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  13. At 12:01 AM on 25 Aug 2006, Peter wrote:

    I'm 54 and have lived in the same village, in Cheshire, all my life. It perhaps shouldn't be called a village, since it has a population of thousands, but my mother remembers it when it truly was. I can look out onto the fields her father used to plough.

    She tells me of taking him his sandwiches, seeing him with the horses and thinking he was wonderful. I had all my grandparents till I was around twenty, so I know the difference between the two kinds of wealth.

    Yes, there are now boys (and, I assume, girls) in this village who are causing a lot of trouble. It's not stealing apples, it's setting fire to things.

    Yet, when I was about twelve another boy said his father would give us both a lift to school, if I just came round in the morning (the school being about three miles away). I began to understand why he'd been in so much trouble at school. The father, as well as the rest of the children, treated the mother like a servant. I'm not saying that, now, it really matters what we call each other, but in the sixties to hear things like, "Have you cleaned my shoes, Elsie?" was really strange to me. I couldn't put up with their bickering for more than a few days. How was it for him? He'd had the cane nine times in one term.

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  14. At 03:55 PM on 29 Aug 2006, jason wrote:

    Some people are the victims of circumstance, bad luck and all that.

    Others just have really unsocial genes, when we lived in small tribes they were just weeeded out, these days they can get away with it for longer and often breed, thus passing on the issues.

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  15. At 01:33 PM on 10 Oct 2006, M Stewart wrote:

    New Labour has created 3,000 criminal offences in just nine years. Is it any wonder then that the prisons are now overflowing?

    One has to ask the question what is this really all about - lawfulness or control?

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