成人快手

WHAT IF EVERYONE WAS DISABLED?

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Presenter: Mat Fraser

Producer: Steve Urquhart

A Reduced Listening production for 成人快手 Radio 4

First broadcast on Thursday 16th July 2020 at 11.30am

/programmes/m000kx1l

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成人快手 R4 INTRO

Now on 成人快手 Radio 4: the actor, writer, drummer, and rights activist Mat Fraser imagines a very different world to the one we鈥檙e used to, in terms of design, technology, and attitudes. Recorded mostly before social distancing began, this is: 鈥榃HAT IF EVERYONE WAS DISABLED?鈥�

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[MAT SCRIPT:]

It was the year 2000.

The Disability Rights Commission had not long been established.

The Disability Discrimination Act had kicked in five years ago.

Words like 鈥渃ripple鈥� and 鈥渉andicapped鈥� were 鈥� largely 鈥� confined to the old Millennium.听 For disabled people, things were changing.

CLIP: 2000 PARALYMPICS, TANNI WINS 800M GOLD

At the 2000 Paralympics, Tanni Grey-Thompson won four Golds.听 She became a household name.

A disabled person, a household name!听 This all felt like progress.听 It felt like hope.

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CLIP: 成人快手 SPORTS REVIEW OF THE YEAR 2000

APPLAUSE鈥� STEVE RIDER: 鈥淭he top three, in reverse order鈥︹��

Then, later that year鈥� a short, sharp bump back down to earth.

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STEVE RIDER: 鈥溾��and in third place, a great Paralympian who excelled in Sydney this year 鈥� Tanni Grey-Thompson!鈥� + APPLAUSE

MUSIC: ANASTACIA 鈥� I鈥橫 OUTTA LOVE

Tanni came third at the 成人快手 Sports Personality of the Year awards.听 You won鈥檛 remember seeing her on stage at TV Centre, to collect her prize鈥� because, she couldn鈥檛 get on stage, in her wheelchair.听 They hadn鈥檛 provided a ramp.

Of course, the 成人快手 apologised for the error.听 Tanni accepted it was an oversight, she was totally gracious.听 Much more gracious than those of us who were shouting and swearing at the telly.

MUSIC FADES

I鈥檓 Mat Fraser.听 I鈥檝e been shouting and swearing about disability for decades.

And in case you鈥檙e thinking, 鈥渨ell, he sounds normal鈥濃�� I should explain.

1鈥�33鈥�

MAT: I鈥檓 disabled, I鈥檝e got little arms 鈥� my impairment is I鈥檓 a thalidomide survivor, I鈥檝e got short arms with inward turning hands at the elbow height, with no thumbs. It means I have to hold a lot of things with two hands, where other people might hold them with one. And therefore, the way I approach the physical world is literally very different, and mentally very different.

FX 鈥� SCHOOL / SWIMMING POOL

MAT: I think I noticed the first time I saw another disabled person. That鈥檚 when I would have noticed 鈥渘ormality鈥�. I mean, I know I was different, I could see it in the mirror, but it didn鈥檛 feel different, because I wasn鈥檛 constantly reminded of it. The physical world is when you鈥檙e reminded. Swimming? Sports? God, I was reminded of it then. I remember, because I was slower at getting my swimming costume on than everyone else, that I learned to start surreptitiously unbuttoning my shirt in the last 15 minutes of the lesson before swimming鈥� so that when we made the mad dash across the playground to the changing rooms, I wouldn鈥檛 be like a whole five minutes later in the pool than everyone else. But that manifested in me getting tangled in my jumper and shirt. I could hear lots of people laughing 鈥� and it was like, yeah, this has gone horribly wrong, and when it got whipped off, of course everybody was looking at me and laughing. That鈥檚 normal for a disabled kid in a non-disabled environment.

2鈥�48鈥�

Over the past couple of decades, I鈥檝e seen loads of positive changes.听 And loads of lessons learned.

CLIP: 成人快手 SPORTS PERSONALITY OF THE YEAR AWARDS 2019

CLARE BALDING: 鈥溾��delighted to be joined here on stage by Tanni鈥檚 family鈥︹��

Baroness Grey-Thompson 鈥� as she became 鈥� won the lifetime achievement award last year.

CLARE BALDING: 鈥溾��to Baroness Tanni Grey-Thompson!鈥� + APPLAUSE

MUSIC: Hopp铆polla 鈥� Sigur R贸s

And yes, there was a ramp!

MUSIC STOPS

But despite the progress, the legislation, the ramps, the accessible toilets, the 鈥渞easonable adjustments鈥濃��

CLIP: HIS DARK MATERIALS

鈥�despite people like me starring in prime-time shows like 鈥楬is Dark Materials鈥欌��

CLIP: HIS DARK MATERIALS

or playing drums with Coldplay at the London Paralympics鈥�

CLIP: MAT PLAYING DRUMS WITH COLDPLAY AT 2012 PARALYMPICS (鈥淕od Put A Smile Upon Your Face鈥�)

CHRIS MARTIN: 鈥溾��on drums, Mr Mat Fraser, let鈥檚 go!鈥�听 听 听 听 听 听听

Despite all that 鈥� we鈥檙e not done yet.

Because every day 鈥� and I鈥檓 58 now 鈥� every single day, I鈥檓 still reminded of my disability.

Yeah, I get on with it, it doesn鈥檛 stop me from doing much鈥� but the reminders are always there.听 Mainly because of the way in which our world has been designed.

3鈥�56鈥�

MAT: Small aspects constantly hit me as a short-armed fellow. I solve the low buttons by kneeing buttons, I have precision kneeing down to a skill, I can quickly press button 5 鈥� and not 6 or 4 鈥� with my knee bone. Humans can adapt to anything. And I suppose what鈥檚 disappointing about most design, money has ruled the roost. So when they found a cheap way of delivering access for a majority of people 鈥� let鈥檚 face it, non-disabled people 鈥� then that鈥檚 what they鈥檒l do. And everything else will be called an add-on, and be a kerfuffle. Whereas it needn鈥檛 have been that way. It could have been inclusive 鈥� and it would have been, if the powerful people who designed the world in their image were all disabled.

FX 鈥� STAIRLIFT NOISE

MAT: I just can鈥檛 help but feeling, if the really powerful people in the world were wheelchair users, the stairlift would never have been invented, because it wouldn鈥檛 have needed to be invented.

MUSIC: Busta Rhymes 鈥� Put Your Hands Where My Eyes Could See (Instrumental)

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Now, this isn鈥檛 going to be a moany old Radio 4 documentary, well, not entirely.听 Sure, there鈥檚 plenty to moan about, but there鈥檚 also plenty to celebrate.听 I want to think about where we are in 2020, how we got here, how far we鈥檝e come鈥� but also, to flip things around.听 To imagine a world in which, not the minority, but the VAST MAJORITY of people had a disability.听 What if EVERYONE was disabled?

FX 鈥� TV CHANNEL HOPPING

MONTAGE OF CLIPS plays quietly underneath Mat鈥檚 voice:

Sandy from 鈥楥rossroads鈥�

鈥淎 Child Born Without Arms鈥� (Path茅 News)

EastEnders 14th April 2014 鈥� Donna Yates鈥檚 first appearance

鈥業ronside鈥� Theme 鈥� Quincy Jones

MAT: Cor, it blows my mind to think how different society would be. Imagine a world where Sandy 鈥� Sandy from Crossroads 鈥� wasn鈥檛 the only disabled bloke that I saw on TV. Imagine if half the people on television were disabled. Everything would be different. Plots, newscasting, technology鈥� catchphrases, ridicule鈥� We, as a nation, would know how to fit a catheter. Because we鈥檇 have seen it a MILLION times, in procedurals! In a world where everyone might be disabled, all the fiction has characters that might been disabled. And they still do their job, and save the federation, with their gammy leg, or their one eye, or whatever it is that鈥檚 considered a disability.

As actors, one of the things we do is to create scenarios of the life we want our art to represent.

CLIP 鈥� LIZ CARR in 鈥楽ILENT WITNESS鈥�

For example: in 鈥楽ilent Witness鈥�, for Liz Carr鈥檚 character Clarissa Mullery, everything is accessible. She鈥檚 good at her job as a forensic examiner, her disability doesn鈥檛 really come into it. Hopefully, someone will see that, and they鈥檒l think 鈥� oh yeah, I need to make sure the real world鈥檚 like that, not just drama.

Liz and I are old mates. She鈥檚 just landed her first Hollywood role, I鈥檓 not at all jealous, you understand! She hasn鈥檛 let fame go to her head, she鈥檚 still speaking to me鈥�

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MAT: OK Liz, so we鈥檙e talking to each other both isolated in the midst of this global corona crisis鈥�

LIZ CARR: Yeah鈥�

MAT: So Liz, what if the entire world was full of disabled people鈥� a world where disabled people have been infused into a structure of its design, and how would the world be different?

LIZ CARR: (laughs) And you want me to answer that, Mat?!

MAT: Not even a question, is it?!

LIZ CARR: (laughs) No! What鈥檚 funny, I think, about imagining a different world, is 鈥� we dream about this, we dream about living in a world where we鈥檙e not disabled, in the fact that everything, or so many things, would be accessible to us 鈥� the environment, the way that we live. But then when we鈥檙e given that freedom, we鈥檙e like 鈥� oh! I don鈥檛 know what that would look like! But I think, when a lot of this really struck me, was when I went to San Francisco for the first time, in 1994. One of the highlights for me was going on a public bus! Because at that point in the UK, buses 鈥� public transport really, was not accessible to me as a wheelchair-using woman. And so I caught the bus in San Francisco! And, not only did I get on the bus 鈥� there was another wheelchair user on the bus!

MAT: Aaaah! I know that feeling!

LIZ CARR: I couldn鈥檛 speak! (laughs)

MAT: Were you sort of smiling inanely at them, and they were like 鈥� what鈥檚 wrong with the mad lady over there?!

LIZ CARR: Absolutely! But, that was the most liberating and freeing experience. Sometimes, my own expectations have been lowered, because you accept poor design, and poor access. And sometimes it takes someone else to have the vision and to have the ambition for you, and to go, you need to actually demand more than this, or, you deserve more than this.听

9鈥�00鈥�

FX 鈥� LONDON UNDERGROUND 鈥� ESCALATOR

MAT: Wheelchair users and the underground system, that鈥檚 got to be the toughest disability transport interface I know of. I鈥檓 sure it doesn鈥檛 have to be this way鈥�

[鈥淪TEP FREE ACCESS鈥� ANNOUNCEMENT IN THE BACKGROUND]

MAT: We鈥檝e just come down an escalator, that I鈥檓 sure could be designed to accommodate a wheelchair user. I don鈥檛 know how, I鈥檓 not a designer.

[QUIETER FOOTSTEPS ATMOS]

MAT: I mean, maybe there鈥檚 a button you can push, and a second step depth comes out, so it鈥檚 more of a sort of platform鈥� (FADES UNDER)

MUSIC: A Guy Called Gerald 鈥� Subscape

But, what do I know?听 I鈥檓 just guessing, when it comes to design. And let鈥檚 face it, I鈥檝e only needed to think through the short-armed stuff, haven鈥檛 I?! So, I need to find some people who know what they鈥檙e on about.

MAT: Right 鈥� we鈥檝e just travelled from Lambeth North, er Waterloo, to Euston 鈥� we鈥檙e on our way to Manchester, where I鈥檓 gonna meet a couple of experts in inclusive and universal design鈥� much more experts in their field than I could ever be鈥�

MUSIC UP

ATMOS CHANGES鈥� from EUSTON STATION to MANCHESTER CENTRAL LIBRARY

MAT: 鈥�right 鈥� what is the difference between inclusive design and universal design?

JANE SIMPSON: I don鈥檛 think there is anything鈥� but some people believe universal design means you can design something that suits everybody. And that鈥檚 impossible鈥� (FADES UNDER)

This is Jane Simpson. 听Jane鈥檚 an architect, and an access consultant, who advises on things like BS 8-300鈥� that鈥檚 the British Standard for the design of accessible and inclusive environments.

TONY HEATON: 鈥�I think inclusive design is about being more flexible, how do you build flexibility into things? 鈥� (FADES UNDER)

And that鈥檚 Tony Heaton.听 Tony鈥檚 an artist, a sculptor, and a disability rights legend!

TONY: 鈥�cos all the rest of us can鈥檛 use it. When we talk about access and barriers, we always talk about the fact that it鈥檚 not just wheelchair users, it鈥檚 prams, shopping, luggage鈥�

JANE: Oh yeah, yeah 鈥� I mean, toilets is the biggie.

TONY: I鈥檝e just bought a new industrial building for my studio, so I have carte blanche, and I鈥檝e put an accessible toilet in. And the toilet doorway is 4鈥�6鈥�, so my head just, as a wheelchair user, 2 inches, I just clear it. I call it the public inconvenience! My mate who built it for me is 6 foot 4! But it鈥檚 my little rebellion, it鈥檚 my power!

MAT: Can I ask this presumably quite ignorant question? What if EVERY toilet was a private cubicle with a sink? So you could do your business, and have your wash up, and look in the mirror 鈥� would that solve it?

TONY: Well, years ago鈥� when we designed accessible toilets years ago, and people said 鈥渦nisex toilets鈥�, or whatever, non- gender specific鈥� well, they always were! They were just a toilet cubicle, with this magical wheelchair logo stamped on the doorway, and 鈥� interestingly 鈥� braille, above where you couldn鈥檛 quite reach it. And if you were blind, what do you do, walk around feeling walls just in case you come across a toilet?! But, anybody can use this. And it鈥檚 really the wheelchair logo that acts as the sort of 鈥渃rucifix and garlic clove鈥� that stops all the non crips from using it.

JANE: I think it鈥檚 鈥� where they鈥檝e got these what they call 鈥渟uperloos鈥� with a toilet and a sink, which are great for people who鈥檝e got colostomy bags and stomas, they鈥檙e really good for them 鈥� people actually take longer, than having the cubicle and the sink outside, so they鈥檙e looking at the numbers, cos potentially the numbers in buildings won鈥檛 be sufficient, if they start doing that everywhere. It鈥檚 a big debate, there鈥檚 never gonna be a right answer, you鈥檒l never have a truly accessible building, for everybody.

TONY: The old adage, that whenever you get disabled people together, they鈥檙e talking about toilets within 5 minutes, has just come true yet again! (laughs)

12鈥�52鈥�

Tony, Jane and I pause our discussion. Not to go to the loo 鈥� well, not just yet 鈥� but to have a look around the first building we鈥檝e come to, Manchester鈥檚 Central Library.听

TONY: It鈥檚 a lovely building, it is鈥�

JANE: I think they鈥檝e done an amazing job of making something so old and so historic into a very accessible鈥�

It鈥檚 recently been refurbished, but still very grand.

TONY: What I love in old buildings, when you make them really accessible, it鈥檚 just great proof to everybody who says, 鈥渙h it鈥檚 a Grade I listed building 鈥� we can鈥檛 do anything, mate, it鈥檚 Grade I鈥︹�� Well, you can.

MUSIC: Mr Scruff 鈥� He Don鈥檛 (instrumental)

It dates back to 1934.听 It has pillars, a dome roof鈥� it鈥檚 like some kind of Roman temple.

TONY: To be fair, Manchester鈥檚 been a really accessible city for many years, you know鈥� the accessible tram system!

MAT: Accessible trams?!

FX 鈥� MANCHESTER CITY CENTRE / TRAMS

TONY: You can just dive straight on, and roll straight off, it鈥檚 quite weird. And you know when you get on a bus as a wheelchair user in London or wherever, and everybody stares at you, you get on the train and everybody stares at you鈥� nobody blinks at you when you get on the tram! And it鈥檚 amazing, how many crips use it鈥� (FADES UNDER)

We take a stroll through Manchester City Centre 鈥� from the historic Central Library, to a very new building.

MAT: Well it is the classic wet and windy day in Manchester, blustery and cold 鈥� we鈥檙e in Tony Wilson Place, Tony Wilson obviously famous from Factory Records 鈥� and we鈥檙e now going into this amazing looking glass-front cladded building called HOME鈥� and here we go, going in!

14鈥�25鈥�

GEORGE: So, HOME is like a contemporary arts centre 鈥� we鈥檝e got film, theatre, visual art, we also have an engagement programme, restaurants, bars cafes, festivals鈥� (FADES UNDER)

This is George 鈥� George Whalley, who heads the operational side of things here. George gives us the tour鈥�

GEORGE: 鈥�on the ground floor, there is both 鈥� there鈥檚 gender specific toilets on the other side of the building as well. So you鈥檝e always got a choice.

TONY: I鈥檓 just gonna use this 鈥� start an access audit! (laughter)

鈥�and Tony Heaton wastes no time in checking on the toilets鈥�

TONY: You can hang your hat and coat on the back of the toilet door, at wheelchair height, which is always great. Somebody with an attention to detail, has done that.

In 2017, HOME won a major award, for universal design. Jane Simpson was one of the judges.

JANE: This was the outstanding winner that year. It is a fantastic space, and I love the fact that you鈥檙e actually listening to people. Any building has to keep reviewing, as they go through, and talking to disabled people! It鈥檚 really really important.

But, Jane being Jane鈥�

JANE: You could do with improving your signage!

GEORGE: Well, I think the signage鈥�

She鈥檚 not gonna let them get complacent!

GEORGE: 鈥�it does need some improvement.

MAT: Tough, Jane!

GEORGE and JANE laugh

It鈥檚 reassuring to see a building so well thought out. But weirdly, it is still unusual.

TONY: We鈥檙e still building new buildings that aren鈥檛 accessible, which is the thing that really makes me wanna weep.

MAT: But why isn鈥檛 鈥� I mean, isn鈥檛 that against the law?

JANE: Well, yes and no, because, the equality legislation asks for equality in services. Building regulation is a minimum safety standard. So that鈥檚 why buildings don鈥檛 necessarily meet it. That鈥檚 gonna keep happening, we need to make sure that access advisers are actually involved at a very early stage on projects. And, if you do it early on, then it doesn鈥檛 cost any more!

TONY: And a lot of architects are very conservative people, they wouldn鈥檛 like to admit that, but they鈥檙e terribly conservative鈥� because they鈥檒l find something that works, that they鈥檝e got away with and they鈥檒l just re-package it for the next thing they build.

JANE: I have to defend architects, to a degree 鈥� as an architect myself! 鈥� because ultimately, how do you persuade the client? That鈥檚 where training comes in 鈥� it鈥檚 trying to ensure architects understand what their responsibilities are, understand the ethics, so that they can feed it back to the clients. But ultimately, if the client doesn鈥檛 want to pay for it, you can鈥檛 make them.

TONY: No 鈥� that鈥檚 the argument I come across all the time 鈥� the client wants the cheapest solution.

MAT: So what I鈥檓 hearing is that, unless it鈥檚 enshrined in law, it might not happen?

TONY: Yeah. And I don鈥檛 think it鈥檚 carrot and stick 鈥� I think it鈥檚 stick. We started to wear seatbelts when we got fined and points for not wearing seatbelts, we stopped drinking when we realised the breathalyser would take away our licences, and huge fines and really expensive insurance鈥� and I think the only way we learn, and we do the right things, is when we are forced to do so.

MUSIC: A Guy Called Gerald 鈥� Subscape

And really, that鈥檚 the point. We鈥檙e still talking about 鈥渕inimum standards鈥�, access advisers, 鈥渞easonable adjustments鈥�, guidance, recommendations 鈥� this stuff isn鈥檛 mandatory.

Back in London, I take this up with Julie Fleck. Julie鈥檚 spent the past 30 years working as an access and inclusive design adviser, at local and national government level.

17鈥�36鈥�

JULIE FLECK: I think part of it is that people don鈥檛 really think about the PEOPLE at the very beginning of the design process. If we really built in that concept of thinking about the users, and the client said 鈥測es I want my building to be loved be people who are going to use it鈥�, then a lot of these issues might evaporate.

MAT: So, how can people see it as something really positive and necessary rather than an expensive, stressy hassle?

JULIE: It鈥檚 about, it鈥檚 a mindset 鈥� it鈥檚 about shifting our mindsets.

MAT: Well traditionally, mindsets are not officially changed until the law forces it. So are you saying that we need these rules and regulations and standards enshrined into law, before 鈥�

JULIE: Absolutely鈥�

MAT: 鈥� how likely is that review of the law, under our current administration, to be in the next five years?

JULIE: Well they鈥檝e made lots of promises鈥� so we鈥檒l have to see, won鈥檛 we?

MAT: Were they put on the side of a bus?!

JULIE: (laughs) No! (laughs)

MAT: But, this isn鈥檛 about Tory, it鈥檚 not about Labour, as a disabled person I鈥檝e been under several administrations, and the situations have all been roughly the same鈥�

JULIE: I鈥檝e worked for Tory administrations and Labour administrations, and they鈥檝e both been very supportive鈥� but there are still challenges. And even with the best policies, we really need the government to lead by example.

19鈥�00鈥�

So鈥� money. Power. Politics. Legislation. They all play a huge part in this. But so do attitudes towards disability.

CLIP: Trump visit, 成人快手 News coverage, 12th/13th July 2018

Now, I鈥檓 no fan of Donald Trump. But, when he came to the UK two years ago, and there were all those protests, and placards, I wrote something on Twitter, politely asking people to stop banging on about his 鈥渟mall hands鈥�.

CLIP: Trump visit, 成人快手 News coverage, 12th/13th July 2018

Look, I don鈥檛 blame people. I don鈥檛 have a list of all the people who made small hand comments about Donald Trump, and am festering with my list鈥� but I could see it happening and I thought 鈥� you guys aren鈥檛 even thinking about this! Like, hey hey! Don鈥檛 be confused, small hands is just small hands. It鈥檚 what he DOES that defines him, not the shape of his body. It just warned a few people that I love off, making jokes that would have pissed me off, and made me have a row with them. Just because they hadn鈥檛 been thinking.

20鈥�00鈥�

MAT (OUTDOORS): I loathe the winter. Especially on the bike, right? The bike means you鈥檝e gotta have gloves in the winter. And in order for me to work anything to do with my bike, I have to take the gloves off, but then where do the gloves go when I鈥檓 trying to do the lock? So I try and put them under my armpit, but because my arms are so short, they get in the way of my hands a bit 鈥� and鈥� all of this faffing just blights my life!

MAT: For a bicycle, you need a pair of gloves that can come on and off very quickly. Inching fingers into woollen-fingered gloves is not practical for me. So I realised I don鈥檛 need a finger in every hole, so to speak. I have four fingers 鈥� two above the handlebar and two below, and that gives me enough purchase to manage handlebars. Therefore, I only need a two-fingered glove. Wide fingers, admittedly 鈥� kind of like a T-Rex, if 鈥� let鈥檚 go there! So I had some made. My 鈥渇littens鈥� are made of sheepskin, because that comes on and off really quickly unless your hands are wet鈥� I refer to my upper appendages sometimes, for fun, as flippers, not hands. And so, mittens become 鈥渇littens鈥�.

21鈥�05鈥�

SAMANTA BULLOCK: This is a glove that you put on the top of a jacket, and the leather bits are what will touch the wheel鈥�

This is Samanta Bullock.

鈥�so it means, if this gets dirty, it just wipe cleans. This is the part that touches the wheel, the leather, so it鈥檚 much easier, it makes you warm, so, there you go! (FADES UNDER)

Samanta grew up in Brazil, where an accident with her dad鈥檚 shotgun almost killed her. That was nearly thirty years ago. Now based in the UK, Sam鈥檚 a model who鈥檚 wheeled herself on to the catwalk at London Fashion Week. She has her own accessible clothing range, and she鈥檚 a huge champion of inclusive fashion.

SAMANTA: We had some comfortable clothes for disabled people but they are so functional and ugly, and medical鈥� and I don鈥檛 want to be seen as a patient. I鈥檓 woman, I鈥檓 married, I travel, I work, I have my friends, I go for drinks, I have my sense of fashion. I want my husband to see me as a woman. And I want my friends to see me for what I am, and for the things I think, and for my ideas and my feelings, not for my condition. So, I鈥檓 a wheelchair user but the wheelchair doesn鈥檛 define me. It鈥檚 part of me, it鈥檚 fine 鈥� I accept that, it鈥檚 fine 鈥� it鈥檚 not that I鈥檓 saying I鈥檓 not disabled, no! I am! And, it鈥檚 ok.

MUSIC: Daniel Avery 鈥� Illusion Of Time

22鈥�38鈥�

It鈥檚 great to hear Samanta Bullock being so positive about disability. I wasn鈥檛 always so positive. Nor did I kick up a fuss, with my perfectly able legs. For years, I would 鈥渄eny鈥� my own disability 鈥� I mean, deny it to myself, reject the label.

Now, it鈥檚 obvious when you meet me for the first time, all but the most visually impaired people would see within about half a second that I鈥檝e got short arms. But despite that, almost until my 30s, I was still hiding in the 鈥渄isability closet鈥�. And I reckon school had a lot to do with that鈥� getting changed for swimming, and so on.

This is Liz Sayce 鈥� a long-time advocate for disability rights.

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LIZ SAYCE: I鈥檇 love to see much more inclusive schools, workplaces, communities, so that everybody with any kind of experience of impairment is just automatically included. And I think we鈥檙e still a way from there.

MAT: Well I鈥檝e long thought inclusive education is the most important thing, you know, whenever we have these conversations 鈥� 鈥渨hy aren鈥檛 there more disabled people in鈥� 鈥� you know, fill in dot-dot-dot line there, it always comes back to inclusive education.

LIZ SAYCE: It鈥檚 through learning together, playing together, being together, growing up together, that we all learn how to accommodate each other. If what you do is, you separate out a group of children, and teach them somewhere else鈥� what happens instead is, you get a lot of people trying to change attitudes towards disabled people through attitude campaigns. And actually, what is far more successful, is simply being together on equal terms. So, if you have a disabled boss, disabled colleagues, that鈥檚 what makes you see everybody as equal 鈥� different, but equal.

MAT: I always said that if Grant from EastEnders 鈥� the old hard man from back in the day 鈥� had had a wheelchair using mate in the Queen Vic, the social implications of that would have been more far reaching than we can ever imagine. And so, we need more of that stuff. We need more inclusive, sustainable, aesthetically pleasing design 鈥� and it IS possible 鈥� and we need the law to back it up.

听MUSIC: Busta Rhymes 鈥� Put Your Hands Where My Eyes Could See (Instrumental)

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I believe in the 鈥渟ocial model鈥� of disability. What that means is, people aren鈥檛 disabled by their differences, or by their impairment, but they鈥檙e disabled by society鈥檚 barriers 鈥� attitudinal and physical 鈥� stuff like inadequate transport, or inaccessible buildings. Or, no ramp at an award ceremony.

The value of oneself is reflected by how accessed you are in a society. So, if a building isn鈥檛 accessible, or there isn鈥檛 a pair of gloves that works for you, you feel less valued.

Dismantling barriers that make us feel as though we鈥檙e lesser beings, is absolutely vital. Otherwise鈥� you鈥檒l shrink into a corner.

And NOBODY puts Liz Carr in a corner.

LIZ CARR: I remember, on my first year of Silent Witness 鈥� the wrap do, so, the party when you finish filming that series, after 8 or 9 months together 鈥� the wrap do wasn鈥檛 accessible.

MAT: Wow 鈥� how to make you feel unwelcome鈥�

LIZ CARR: 鈥�and 鈥� it really hurt. It鈥檚 basically saying 鈥� you鈥檙e so insignificant, that we have forgotten about you, or not bothered about you, you might as well have a sign at the front, going 鈥測ou鈥檙e not welcome here鈥�. And that鈥� is HARD. It鈥檚 really hard. And I think it鈥檚 where a lot of our humour comes from, because you have to be so incredibly strong and resilient to survive that, that knockback all the time. And I guess 鈥� you asked me at the beginning, what could this incredible world where we鈥檙e included look like? And, I鈥檓 not very good at the visuals, so I鈥檓 not sure Mat, I wish I could see it. But I鈥檝e been so used to a world that isn鈥檛 accessible, I don鈥檛 know. But I know the feeling I鈥檇 like from being there 鈥揳nd that is: I鈥檇 love to not feel grateful, and thankful, when something is done accessibly. Because I鈥檇 like it to just be 鈥� that鈥檚 how it is. But I think that鈥� it really tells me a lot that I feel the need to be incredibly chirpy, and thankful and grateful, that people are just allowing me into a place I should have been allowed in from the start.

MAT: You are the most bitter (LIZ LAUGHS) unbelievably selfish bitch I have ever listened to.

LIZ CARR: And that鈥檚 why I love you, Mat!

BOTH LAUGH鈥� fades out.

27鈥�30鈥澨�听听听听听听 ends

R4 OUTRO

鈥榃HAT IF EVERYONE WAS DISABLED?鈥� was presented by Mat Fraser, and produced by Steve Urquhart.听 It was a Reduced Listening production for 成人快手 Radio 4.

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