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Hi Tim


As an Inter fan, I'm curious what you think about the addition of Milito and Motta to the Nerazzurri. After the 2-0 derby win last night in which Milito scored two solid goals, I'm very hopeful (For him and Motta)... But given the formations, etc, how do you think Milito will pair up with Eto'o? I was definitely looking forward to his partnership with Ibrahimovic, but I think if we can learn to play better through balls to Eto'o we could have two strikers hit 20+ a season - a first for god knows how many years.

Tim

Great piece as always.

I've heard you talk about this trend a number of times on the World Football phone in.

This seems to be a business model that has evolved out of the increased financial power of the European clubs, but do you think this is a long term solution for the future of the South American game?? It is a proud footballing continent, with a tradition which rivals that of Europe and it seems now that as the best players are leaving younger and younger, that the status of the game, at club level at least may be diminished. Fans in countries like Brazil and Argentina, who are used to watching players at their peak playing in their home leagues must be disheartened by this trend??

In a semi related topic, How do you think Keirrison will fair in Spain?? It seems as though he will be loaned out Barcelona this season, potentially giving him the first team experience he needs.

Tim,

Are there any smaller clubs in Brazil that have a good youth academy compared to the current success of their team? I'm talking maybe similar to West Ham.

Also do certain parts of South America aspire to play for certain teams in Europe - I imagine most of Argentina wish to play for Barcelona? What about the other countries?



Cheers,
Steve

Hi Tim,

My club, Dundee United, has recently signed a player from Argentina - striker Damian Casalinuovo - he spent last season with Platense in his homeland, having previously been with Valez Sarsfield.

Do you know anything about him? Is he any good? Reason I ask is we did go down the south american route a few years ago but it didn't work out for us (combination of bad scouting and not knowing what to do with the players we'd signed.

Thanks

Iain

Hi Tim,

Great stuff as ever. Just wanted to get your opinion of Lucas Barrios who has joined Dortmund from Colo Colo in Chile. He was the world goalscorer of the year 2008 with 37 goals in as many games and I wondered how he would fair in the Bundesliga. Alot of South American have excelled in the division particularly Grafite last season and I wondered if Barrios would be a success. He has moderate success in the Libertadores and I think he is keen to get into the Argentinian squad for the World Cup, he seemed to have a number of choices in Europe but chose BVB what are the chances of Maradona calling him up?

great post tim,

saw the video of the kid making his debut, an opposition player touched him and he rolled more times than a baker.

I think it was utterly absurd for Baldivieso to select his son for that match.

There is no way that even a precocious 12 year old kid is able to compete with men in a professional game.

It was clearly a publicity stunt by the father to make his son famous. As far as I'm concerned the league shouldn't even have allowed the son's registration.

Why doesn't FIFA come out and make a stand on issues such as this, instead of making public comments about highly paid famous players like Cristiano Ronaldo being 'slaves'. FIFA could also try and do something about the murky nature of South American player contracts and stop the continual plundering of the continent's best talent by European clubs.

I think European clubs are slowly killing the goose that is laying the golden eggs in South America. Young talent gets a chance sooner here, but at what cost to the standard of the leagues and clubs when the best players leave? It's the Gold Rush of the 21st century.

Hi Tim, your blog (and accompanying shifty photo) is consistently the best thing about the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ website.

My beloved Arse(nal) are being linked heavily with Wellington, somebody I know absolutely nothing about. Can you give us a little info about him and if he'd be any good and if indeed there is any credibility to this rumour - or has the tabloids Rumour-o-meter got out of control (again).

Thanks

This is a non story really, the exact same thing happens to smaller clubs in England and throughout the world. Look at a typical League One club and you will find a handful of kids with potential, a couple of veterens who have played at a higher level at one time and the rest are journeymen (or one-clubmen) who have never been good enough to play at a higher level.

It is of course all down to money. Brazil and Argentina just can not support teams at the level of most premiership squads and until the economies of those countries reaches a point where they can fill a 40,000 seater stadium every week with £50 tickets nothing that the various footballing bodies do will make a blind bit of difference.

9. I have to agree with you really, although it's on a slightly less extreme scale, my team Tranmere's first team squad this year appears to be made up mainly of talented youngsters (up to 21 or so) and experienced signings of 30+. Any talented players in their peak are snapped up by Championship clubs.

Great blog - as always - this piece merely highlights how big money leagues like the premiership, la liga and serie a are destroying south american football. not only do clubs lose their top players, fans lose their heroes and even national teams suffer due to the disruption caused by having a squad of players based around the globe.

Another very interesting post, many thanks Tim.

Common sense would say that 16 is already a overly young age to play an adult match so thirteen is plain wrong. Some men keep in pretty good shape after retirement so a fit man could well be playing in a lower division at 45 and a goalkeeper would not have much problem to keep up.

Just some info to add to your post, if you don't mind, about Sao Paulo. Sao Paulo Football Club is a club based in Sao Paulo city, as well as Corinthians and Palmeiras. Sao Caetano and Barueri are clubs from smaller cities located in the Great Sao Paulo, therefore in the outskirts of Sao Paulo City. Sao Paulo city, the largest city in South America, is the capital of Sao Paulo state which is roughly the size of the UK and is one out of the 26 states that form Brazil.

Plain stupidity from the coach. He clearly wanted to almost promote his son to the world, like an advert. Baldiviseo put his son on show like an animal in a zoo, knowing that because he had a good playing career, his son maybe worth a punt. Plus, if he did continue playing and he moved clubs, what kind of transfer fees would be floated around for a 12-year-old?!?

Also there was a chance he could of get injured, in which case Baldiviseo Snr would have been outraged at the opposing player? Why should he, he sent his son out there in the first place!

This act though clearly shows the desperation of South American clubs to recruit whatever players they can.

You could manufacture the same argument about English football, just look at Sheringham when he finished and Owen or even Macheda when he started.....

It's one think worrying about the state of South American football, but from what i can see World football has a shortage of top class footballers too. I mean £40M for John Terry? around £67m for Zatalan? Where are the credible alternatives?

There are none.

To comment number 10.

You're saying it's a non story? The continent which has produced so many of the worlds great players can no longer hang on to its stars past the age of 20. And this is a non story because you've seen the same thing happen at Tranmere?!!!

That's like saying a multi million pound bank robbery is a non story because I dropped a tenner down the drain! Brilliant!

15 -

I completely disagree.

If you look into the Serie A, there are plenty of alternatives for Zlatan already - though I don't expect my team to be splashing out on any of them.

Mauro Zarate has had a wonder season at Lazio - showing all the hallmarks of a complete striker, just needing a bit more time to develop it. Goran Pandev, again, is an all action striker. Further afoot, Fabio Quagliarella - whilst he might lack the tricks of Zlatan, has the ability to finish, quite literally, from anywhere on the pitch, and his move to Napoli should allow him to become a much more recognized player. Then you have to look at people like Edison Cavani, etc. I know these aren't current world class players, but certainly in a couple years at least a couple of them will be. Oh, I forgot to mention Ezequiel Lavezzi.

Defense, admittedly, Italy is somewhat lacking at the minute. For the centre-back area, only Santacroce and Kjaer (Danish) stand out of the youth players. With the emergence of Motta and Santon, the full-backs have gone from very susceptible in a couple years to actually possibly quite solid.


The alternatives are there, you just have to look for them - something that, it would seem, Barca and Real aren't interested in doing this summer.

The classical place to buy young players, of course, is South America. The S American clubs realize this, and they've jacked some stupid prices on their places - for example Hernanes at 20mil, or Douglas Costa - a player whose only played a couple, if I remember correctly, first team games. Even Coutinho, who Inter have signed, was bought for about 5 million, a year before he played any first team games for his side.

There's talent in Europe, a lot of it, I would cite Genoa and Napoli as the main clubs to watch, that I know of, who actually buy smart. Genoa paid a combined 8m for Milito and Motta (on a free) and got Roberto Acquafresca and 30 mil (Euros) back for them a year later.

Felipe Melo is another one of these success stories, this time at Fiorentina, as is Kjaer.

I hope I don't even need to mention Marek Hamsik in much depth? A player who had a bid of 32million euros rejected last summer for half of his contract. Stunning stuff.

Anyone who's been to a Fla-Flu or Vasco-Flamengo game at Maracana will understand that Brazilian Club football is truly worth preserving. European Clubs taking young players too early will eventually kill the club game in South America. It is also bad for the young players as they are no longer being given time to hone their natural talent at home before having it coached out of them in Europe.
The regulations should be tightened - it appears that certain teams in Europe have a never-ending conveyor belt of Brasilians coming through. Many of them claim to have dual-nationality, but many of these claims are dubious in extreme. Why are there so many Brazilians in Russia, Ukraine, Turkey, etc.
Another reason for clubs having to sell players is because the national club championship in countries like Brazil are financially untenable. The vast travelling distances are financially crippling and many of the games attract only small crowds. Locals are only interested in local derbies and the occasional grudge match between Rio and Sao Paulo clubs.

Just watched the video on YouTube. Twelve or not the kid is a joke. I've never seen such an over reaction to a challenge.

I think it adds weight to the argument that anyone of that age should most definitely not be allowed registration and selection for a senior game. Even if he is physically ready he's certainly far too immature.

collie21

Your missing the point. It being that there is very little talent in between in South American leagues.

Yes we had Macheda and Sheringham but we also have many World Class players in their pomp playing in England.

17 - I did say I agreed with 9, but I was backing up the comment overall rather than that poster's opening statement. This IS a story, but I was just pointing out that it happens on a greater or lesser scale everywhere. Obviously League 1 football is nearer the 'lesser' end and the problem in South America is 'greater', but it's essentially the same principle behind it. That's all I was trying to say.

i just saw the clip of the kid playing he barely got touch but was rolling around like he had been shot. 12yr old is def to young to play senior football

Good blog - i think this demonstrates the problems that the vast spending on imported players by European clubs has caused. It reaches a stage where a country loses all it's best players and the league is in decline. The high value of wages and transfers effectively prices clubs from these nations out of buying any players, even up and coming ones from their own nation! This is common in South America, but is also beginning to happen in Europe's smaller leagues - Holland, Belgium, Scotland, Austria are all leagues reduced to a bit-part role in European competition because the majority of their best players are taken away at a young age. Even these countries biggest clubs cannot afford to sign them, so are they are forced into playing youngsters or the only transfers they can afford - cheap journeymen.

It is to the benefit of the game as a whole that there must be a limit placed on imported foreign players. This constant importing destroys entire countries leagues and also limits the oppertunities for youth at the clubs spending big to bring in the next 'wonderkid'. Platini had the right idea with his '6+5 rule', but it was critisized by big spending sides in Europes big leagues - mainly for their own greed.

What do you think Phil? - is it time to limit this mass exodus of players to the big leagues around Europe?

Hi Tim,

I heard that Roberto 'Gatito' Fernandez, the goalie of the Cerro from Paraguay, just landed a deal with Estudiantes of Argentina. This seems like a great career move for the kid and I hope he does well, but do you think that is even possible? And if so, do you think he has what it takes to make the leap across the ocean? Aside from two notable exceptions, Paraguay has never produced goalies who have been successful outside its borders. I won't get my hopes up, but will follow Gatito's progress closely.

While there is amazement at the kid turning out for Aurora, I think De Avila will be interesting to watch. It'd be great if he's kept himself fit, and it would settle a few of those "do they ever lose it" debates - and look at Lance Armstrong coming back and still competing in cycling, where I'd argue it is far harder to keep to a competitive level.

Insofar as the "doughnut effect" of South American talent leaving the continent is concerned, it's a worrying trend, but that's exactly what I think it is - a trend. The current globalisation of football and the foreign wealth pouring into Europe means that talent from all over the world will grace European leagues. But I don't think that this necessarily will go on forever. I can see two scenarios: there will eventually be a backlash from the European game, that will lead to a kind of 6+5 rule being implemented (or imposed); or I can also envisage that the talent drain will lead to a "saturation point" - there will come a point where there are so many starlets being lured to Europe's big clubs that (for footballing reasons at any rate) it won't make any sense to go abroad, when there's a first team place and possible honours available in an uncrowded home league.

Tim dont you think CONMEBOL can do a lot more to protect South American football. They could try to look for changes that stop players under 20 from leaving South America. From the outside CONMEBOL do appear to be quite useless compared to UEFA.

Santo André who are doing surprisingly well in Serie A have 42 year old Fernando appearing in midfield.

On Wednesday I saw a young lad called Jorbison make his debut for Flamengo. He looks about 12 years old but is apparently 17. So probably a bit old for Man U then.

Hello Tim,

I am in Ghana and I never miss your articles which I have enjoyed all these years.

Well, I have been watching the Brazilian League very much recently courtesy DSTV AFrica's SuperSport network. I must say my interest is growing in the Brazilian league because I just want to always see my idol Ronaldo Luis NAzario de Lima playing. And I must admit that you have been doing a great job, as I see it.

Well I hope you can tell me about the Colombian player called Makalele who features for Gremio. I saw him come on in the second half against Corinthians recently. I want to know if his real name is Makalele or his style or position as it were of play is similar to that a certain Frenchman. He was very rugged and almost always seemed to be fouling opponents and got himself yellow-carded as well.

I must admit though that he was very strong, kept running and seemed to be everywhere, a workhorse. Phil, do you think he wants to play just like Claude MAkalele of Real Madrid and Chelsea fame? Is he a better player than Claude or he is rushing it all over?

ANd before I forget, he doesn't look like Claude Makalele, but rather another Frenchman, a certain Lassana Diarra.

Great article as usual - your point about South American clubs having to continually sell to balance the books is being played out at the moment during the pretemporada in Argentina. San Lorenzo, River and Independiente have all had problems paying their players in the last couple of months and the AFA have said that if they don't sort out their finances soon they might have to delay the start of the league. How much of this is maladministration, and how much just the problems of modern football in South America?

Independiente in theory should not be in this position after the Aguero sale of a couple of years ago. An added problem is a lot of the clubs don't even own some of their best players. San Lorenzo in particular have lost a lot of their XI from last season but as they were all on loan/short term contracts (Bergessio, Solari, Ledesma) they get nothing for them.

Isn't that kid a little too big for a 12-year old? Well, I was talking to a mate about it earlier and I've been wondering how crap must be the level of Bolivian teams(both footballing and organizational) to even accept it?

9 - Clube Atletico Mineiro has proved that you can fill the stadium with 50.000 every week. But it's not cultural to go to the stadium if your team is not doing well. Some clubs like Sao Paulo and Cruzeiro can't even fill their stadiums when winning everything. The Atleticano is usually associated with the fanatic people in Minas Gerais, while the Cruzeirense is usually the one who does not care about football at all and supports their team because it has been the most successful for the last 2 decades.

I think we(Atletico Mineiro) had a bigger average attendance than Cruzeiro for the last years but they've been more successful and the two teams have roughly the same number of supporters(we have a slightly majority in Belo Horizonte, where both clubs are based but in the rest of the state it's the opposite)

Tim, as usual you have once again written a thought-provoking article. Thanks.

I think such conscience-stirring stuff will make the football pundits, football policy makers and football clubs sit and consider the pros and cons of pre-adolescents playing football with grown up men on the big stage.

Rights activists have time and again questioned child labour and other forms of exploitation of the child including the exploitation by parents. Children need to be with fellow children and preferably in schools meant for their age groups.

In my long years of field work in our Indian road side restaurants, cafes, small factories for spinning, rolling fireworks and crackers, I used to see these innocent children involved in things not meant for kids but were being encouraged by parents so as to get those few extra bucks. But I must say things are changing to a great extent. Thanks to the relentless campaigns by activists, media and NGOs who try to find ways and means to sensitize Society.

Child footballers, child soldiers and child labourers need to be liberated from being used as mere objects by the grown ups.



Dr. Cajetan Coelho

Whatever about kids not being mature enough to hang out on the field with grown men, they are certainly not mature enough to be earning thousands a week. They loose of sense of proportion and become laws unto themselves. Yes even the 'nice' ones. Just look at beckham and what his money enables him to do. No real sense of loyalty to any club because he is rich enough to pay a club to play him.
How it might finally turn around is when some of these rich brazilians take their money and invest it domestically, but that is a pretty utopian hope.

"It is not easy to stick to a long-term plan in an environment like football where so much importance is given to short-term results" - couldn't agree more with you Tim. over the past few weeks alone, we have seen brasileirao coaches getting fired left and right.

On the doughnot analogy with respect to south america's talent, well its an unfortunate truth. while you can't deny a player to earn more and test his talent in a foreign continent, it does seem to deprive of the traditional footballing education. this is evident in many national south american teams play on the field in the last two decades. hopefully this youth poaching by european clubs will cease once a 6+5 or something is implemented. i certainly hope so!

In Argentina this doughnut has made it very difficult for the big clubs. The big clubs from leagues of lesser calibre in Europe, such as Germany, France, Holland, etc. can buy and hold on to quality players since the prospect of a guruanteed Champions League spot is very appealing. But in Argentina and Brazil there is no international tournament with prestige and little reason for their good players to stay. This is why in the last Argentine season none of the big clubs were even in the title race, with Velez, Lanus, Huracan, and Colon being the contenders. Being a big club in Argentina nowadays only means you have a big stadium. Racing was an inch away from relegation last summer and Independiente has fallen completely apart but can't afford any transfers other than a few rejects from other clubs. It's unbelievable, imagine a nation's biggest clubs only having the cash being able to buy a bench player or two. And despite selling Aguero for millions Independiente is already 6 or 7 months late on finishing their stadium, which was almost completed but stopped due to contractual disagreements with the construction company, with no signs of progress. They've been playing their home games away now for a few seasons.

Tim, do you think this might change? Can Argentina's big clubs regain their importance?

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Anyone else really want to know what No.37 said!?!?!? Come on, we're all adults here!

39 - If I can remember correctly(I read once, was going to answer, went away from the pc and the comment was gone when I got back), he said (in portuguese, which is the reason it got removed, hope he understands that english is the language of this discussion):

a-) That Tim was using Brazil good things to talk well about South America and bad things about South America to talk about Brazil. Like "If Brazil is good then the rest of South America is and if South America is bad then Brazil also is."

b-) That Euro isn't a good thing for Europe because it made some countries too expensive to live for its own habitants. And that the journalists who see Euro as a good thing tend to see continental competitions as a good thing. (I can't even understand that point)

c-) That Libertadores "argentinize" Brazilian football and that it would be better for us(brazilians) to stay home and forget about our neighbours.

d-) That the argentinians are racist and that they mock our league(citing D'Alessandro saying that if he was good, he wouldn't be playing in Brazil), which is provoked by the fact that "a country with a very high percentage of black people is more modern than its 93% white neighbour".

e-) That the NBA(American Basketball League) doesn't "share" its teams with Europe. Meaning that Brazil can't allow our teams to play continental competitions because "the big leagues doesn't do it"! I hope he understands that going to Bolivia is much simpler than going from California to England. If he knows what California is.

That's what I can remember for now.

@ 2.Poocher14

Keirrison was loaned out by Barcelona last night for a season to Benfica.
(Link:

Always like Tim's Doughnut comparison, So true - River and Boca in Argentina probably the classic examples, with Gallardo, Ortega, Palermo, Riquelme as the old boys, who have returned from Europe.

But have you seen what's happening in Argentina football at moment,Tim?

Serious possibility of start of Apertura being suspended due to so many clubs not being able to pay their players.

What a mess! Big clubs aswell, eg. River, Independiente, San Lorenzo, Neweel's and Rosario,

Maybe it won't be a doughnut structure anymore for some of them, but just teams that resemble youth teams.

Just read last week's column - great article, and excellent debate on Veron from the posts.

- sad to hear the Cafe Italia in Soho has gone. That place was always a great comfort, for a cappucino and sandwich, after missing the night bus and having to wait an hour for the next one, on many a freezing London night.

- can only hope that the reason it's gone is because there are now many other all night cafes, offering similar service, with London finally dragging itself into the 21st century, in line with all the other major cities of the world, in terms of night-life.

- I can relate to your story about Careza. I worked in Spain for a while in the early 90's, and loved watching Bernd Schuster play for Atletico Madrid, a similar type of player I believe.

If only Schuster hadn't decided never to play for Germany again after falling out with his Federation after he was the outstanding player in their 1980 European Championship victory. He would have played in 2 World Cup Finals (86 & 90), possibly 4 World Cup tournaments, and four European Championships, and would be considered up there with some of the all-time greats, in my humble opinion.

Thanks galoucura. It all sounded a bit..... ignorant. Never mind.

For balance, post 37 should be restored.

I don't think this is a problem restricted to South America. All over the world the best young players are hoovered up into the top European clubs at increasingly young ages. The situation here in Scotland is a joke. As soon as a player has a decent 6 months in the SPL Rangers, Celtic and English Championship clubs are after them (we don't produce many good enough for the Premiership anymore unfortunately). It's as though we're not able to have any decent players for more than a season or two, because if you hold onto them any longer than that their contract is inevitably running down and you risk losing them for nothing.

The same thing happens in the "lesser" leagues all over Europe - where are Ajax and Auxerre these days? Certainly not where they were pre-Bosman.

You've your work cut out for you this week Tim with number 37 there haha

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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Hi Tim,

I enjoyed your article, as always, though I feel you must be more opinionated on the so-called 'doughnut effect'. Surely as a South American football journalist, the loss of top talent to Europe must be as frustrating for yourself as it is for the fans? Have you any suggestions that may remedy the hemorrhage of younger talent? I know that Corinthians circa 2005 were modelling themselves as a credible alternative to Europe's top clubs, is there another modern-day equivalent?

As an outsider, I would say that Baldivieso-gate is more fundamentally connected to the innate eccentricity of South American football, rather than a need to compensate for player deficit. It is the same eccentricity that gives players the gumption to try outrageous skill and fans justification to chase opposition players down the tunnel. Unfortunately European teams cannot take the fall for every evil of South American football.



Regards,

Simon Gaskell.

49 and 50 - Cause it's a discussion which the lingua-franca is English. And you're yourself a troll, I can't believe you were serious in your last comment, and if you were then I'm ashamed to have you as my compatriot.

Tim,I would be very interested to hear your comments on AFA report that several Argentinan First Division clubs owe their players several weeks wages.

I tried to phone in ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ R5 World Football phone In,on Saturday got through but sadly never got a call back.To discuss the financial state of Argentine Football and whether this could delay the start of the new season.The players want to be paid in US dollars but the Argentine peso is not doing well.

My beloved Boca Juniors and River Plate are two of the high profile clubs mentioned.Riquelme has even offered to play for free next season,the situation is grave,as the Credit Crunch in Europe means top clubs are not looking to S.America for young players.

Hi guys,

Bit of a fiery response from yourself Tim over number 37, that must have hit a nerve. After reading his post seems like a bit of a WUM if you ask me.

Thoroughly enjoyed the debate on Veron last week, had a funny feeling you would choose the young kid as the topic this week.

Wonder if anyone can help me, I'm off to Ecuador (staying mainly in Quito) on September 21st, wondered what stage of the season they would be at and how easy would it be to go and see a game? Being a Birminhgam City fan hopefully taking a couple of shirts over to swap will go down well due to our two new arrivals-Benitez and Espinoza.

Cheers.

I agree with galoucura completely on posts 49 - 50. It seems to me that the poster is paranoid and/or has way too much time on his hands.

In regards to the article, I completely agree with it. Another factor that is very frustrating is the mass movement of players to Europe midway through the year. A big example this year is my team Corinthians, who were arguably the best Brazilian team in the first 6 months of the year, but then sold 3 of the first 11 in a week (Andre Santos, Cristian, Douglas), with another couple rumoured to be following (Felipe, Elias). This has completely unbalanced the side and we had to even ply a midfielder at left back yesterday. I can now see us dropping into mid-table or even flirting with relegation if the right replacements don't come in.

54 - The Ecuadorian league is very complicated, but they are in the second of four stages there. I would give wikipedia a go, just search "Serie A de Ecuador". Unfortunately I cannot help in regards to tickets, but I am sure it won't be too difficult to get some. I doubt matches will be sold out unless it is a derby.

Tim, do you know whether Palacios going to Genoa has anything at all to do with Boca Juniors' (los xeneizes) historic affiliation with this city?

Cheers,
James.

First of all, great blog Tim.

I think what you're focusing in this one is basically a reality in south american football since early 2000 (but it had shown its first symptoms before), and at the same time that it can get some older players to show that they still have what it takes here (even though some of them - like Ze Roberto some time ago - can really highlight that the average of all teams aren't really high on terms of potential and ability) I think it's the cause of so many good young players being burned here by: getting too early to the first team and crumbling with the pressure or not being so good but, due to the lack of quality in the opposition, the player ends up looking better than he is.

#49 - O futebol brasileiro tem que atender as expectativas do torcedor brasileiro, do que ele gosta, e nao o que alheios "planejam" pra ele.

Basically he is saying that the brazilian football must attend the expectatives of the brazilian supporter, what he trully likes, not what others have planned for him.

Ok, I lost my will to read any more of that comment from there, but I've managed to do it some time after.

So he knows exactly what every brazilian supporter wants to see and it has to be done that way! Incredible.... man, actually you're the one that's looking, at least for me, to be forcing others to think about something your way, that is, if you really thought about what you wrote at the time.

Agree with you completely there as well Tim, it is those players chance to get their "pe de meia" i.e. financial security to support their family. In a perfect (to me) world, the top Brazilian clubs would not have financial trouble and would be able to compete with the salaries European clubs offer. Then we would not be seeing this mass exodus, as a lot of Brazilians would prefer to stay at home. Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world though...

I still think the mass exodus mid-season is stupid though. An alignment to the European Calendar and a more logical transfer window system need to come into place. For example, we have had Edu for a few weeks, but he can't play for us until the 1st August as he moved from Europe. But players move the other way as early as June, like Maicosuel to Hoffenheim, leaving clubs with less chances to find a goo dimmediate replacement.

Perhaps leaving later is better than leaving soon.

Take Diego and Robinho for example. To the effect of comparison, both have the same talent(I'd say Diego is actually more talented, but it doesn't matter)

Diego left a year before Robinho(and being 1 year younger, thus leaving 2 years before) and had trouble adapting at Porto(which is a big club but not THAT big) and only now he finds himself in a top european club(Juventus), never having cemented his place in the first-team of the national squad(he faces more competition than Robinho, but a player of his category could make easily to the bench)

Robinho, leaving in 2005 was already hailed as one of the greats by the national media because of his time in Santos. Had no problems at the national-squad, even being hailed as indispensable whereas many would say that he isn't. Left Brazil straight to one, if not THE, biggests clubs in the world, Real Madrid.

I'd say if I were a player I would refuse the first opportunity to leave, if that meant going to a lesser european side.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

60 - I do agree with you in that respect and I think that if a club and player hold out for a bigger club they would both benefit. The club would get a larger transfer fee and the player higher wages, but most importantly a better footballing platform and a much bigger chance to continue playing for the national side (just like you mentioned)

I do however believe that players and clubs are unwilling to risk waiting for a second offer. If the player suffers an injury or his form drops, then a worst offer could follow. Two examples come to my mind, and sorry they will be Corinthians ones again!

Back in 2001 or 2002 (not sure on the date) Luizao was set to sign for Dortmund, who at the time had a lot of money and were playing regularly in the Champions League. Just before the deal was finalised he got seriously injured and the transfer was cancelled. He ended up moving to Hertha BSC for a lot less money after he got back to full fitness and never really shone anymore. I know his injury caused him to miss the first deal, but just imagine if he got seriously injured after rejecting the first offer.

The second example I have is Lulinha. He was rated as one of the most promising players and Corinthians put a £50 Million rescision clause on him after (I presume) rejecting a few good offers. Now we have loaned him out to Estoril in a desperate attempt to increase his market value...

61 - Seriously, your bickering is getting very tiring now. Firstly, you keep writing in portuguese, meaning that 95% of other posters don't know what you are going on about. Additionally, I believe that the house rules state that posting should be done in English. Secondly, your bashing of Tim is extremely petty and completely unnecessary. Tim is trying to bring South American football to a British audience, something which I believe he has done very well. There isn't enough coverage of South American football in the UK and his blogs always provide people with inisghtful stories. His non-biased views are also very refreshing compared to some of the Brazilian journalists who still believe the Brazilian league to be one of the best of the world and anyone playing outside of it is a mercenario and useless. So please, just leave it.

That's quite a thing to say Tim! Quite an accusation!

It does seem an anomaly that Brazil's top clubs, operating as they do in one of the top ten largest eceonomies in the world, with a huge population, unparalelled footballing tradition, massive public interest and potentially enormously lucrative television rights, aren't able to produce a product capable of at least rivalling the best European leagues.

It is also a great shame; my dad speaks about the great Brazillian teams who came over for world cups in the 70s and 80s carrying some sort of mystique about them. Most of the players were still unknown to European audiences, and the competition between different footballing cultures made for one of the most fascinating aspects of inter-continental competition. Unfortunately with the hegemony of the Champions League clubs we are seeing less and less of this. Hopefully Brazil moves out of the dark ages and produces the sort of domestic championship it is capable of!

Just a suggestion Tim, but I rather wish you wouldn't respond to quite so many of the Argentina/Brazil bias allegations. I know it's hard to resist when it's you being shot at, but it is a bit tiresome, certainly for this reader, to see it on the responses every week!

Good blog again!

Hi Tim
Great blog as usual, however I do agree with gerry, obviously you're very passionate about this and have the right to counter any points made against you, but I think in this case with the cross-language discussion going on, if the Portuguese comments are deleted then maybe your replies should go as well.
I look forward to next Monday morning, and maybe some more light-hearted comments!
Alex

62 - Back on Diego and Robinho, I think I would never reject a move for Porto, after all, it is a big club just not as big as Real!

So Robinho might just have been luckier. I can't remember what happened that led to his move but I can remember that he left deeply unsatisfied, since it took long for him to leave.

Mind you, if the wait resulted in going to Real Madrid, he should never get upset.

Now Lulinha, if he had the choice(he probably didn't) I would reject the move to Estoril. He could attract MUCH MORE attention playing for one of the biggest brazilian clubs than in one of the lesser portuguese sides. Not mentioning that Corinthians is probably the team with more air time in TV now, because of Ronaldo. Had he fought for his place, he could have achieved more, if he truly has faith in his ability.

If not, his wage must be better at Estoril.

66 - I partly agree with your point on Lulinha. The thing is, he wont be able to develop his football at Corinthians right now. The fans criticize him too much and there is too much negativity. And I dont think any of the big clubs would take a chance with him + Corinthians wouldn't want to loan him out there. A move to a smaller club would have been a lot better, maybe to Barueri or Santo Andre, where there wouldnt be much pressure from fans. The move to Estoril is certainly not a good one and I am sure his agents had a bigger say than him.

Tim, I agree with the other posters in regards to the criticism responses, althoough I understand why you get frustrated. Although I replied to the last one, I believe it is probably better if they were ignored.

The State Championship issue I partly agree, partly disagree with you. I believe that in the current format they are useless, but they are also too traditional to just abolish. I believe that if they were run more like a cup parallel to the Brazilian League they would be better. For example, the best placed 8 teams in the national structure qualify for next years State cup, where you split it into two groups, have home and awys matches that qualify to a Semi Final and then Final. That will leave you with 10 fixtures, something which you can easily fit across the season, playing on wednesday and thursday nights. You then regionalize the 3rd/4th tier into North, Northeast, Southeast, Centre-East and South and divided into staes for the 4th/5th tier and below. Just something I was thinking about. But for me aliging the calendar to Europe is a bigger issue. All these mid-season exits ruin the league in my opinion.