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One thing I don't quite agree with Tim, do you think Man United fans are not aware that they are now only 1 title behind Liverpool's record 18 haul?

Happy new year Tim!

In Brazilian football do the chairperson elections provide more or less stability for clubs? I would expect if a chairman is elected by its fans he or she will go to great lengths to keep in with them and so i would expect a manager on a bad run to be vulnerable. Much as it is becoming in the prem.

Tim, don't know if you were deliberately proving what you said about your generation only remembering 1966 and beyond but holding midfielders were created with the WM formation of Herbert Chapman in the 1930's.

Interesting and convincing theories, though, as ever.

Happy New Year Tim

Good Stuff, more informative reading in this article giving a great insight in to the game in South America.

Not sure if I fully agree on the not looking back on the past from ana English point of view, as I for one love to reminiss about days gone by of English football(and im only 23) and the greats of past generations before mine, but that could just because im an advocate of football and love to see the game and players what was like before I actually started to watch my generation of as u say 1992, but I do tend to agree that it probably isnt as widely looked back upon as say in Brazil

Also
Quite enjoyed your tongue in cheeck quip -

"It is not because, in the club's white shirt, he will look like a giant ice cream."- Very Amusing Tim

Keep up the Good Work

Fantastic article. What a blog should be - informative, entertaining and well written. A thousand miles away from the embarrassment that is Chick Young.

Interesting to hear about Denilson - I remember around the time of France 98 talk of his transfer and the impending destruction he would be reeking at European defenses. I remember always being the first to call myself Denilson down the park when playing football too, I was so enamored by the hype.
Just goes to show that great talent does not guarantee success; mentality and who one surrounds one with has a massive say on how a footballer's career can go. And in today's climate where players are scouted and brought in at fifteen or sixteen, I think it's important to remember that - for both clubs and players.

Ah Denilson - the perfect start to any Championship Manager reign....

Tim,

I agree the Brazilian public have more passion for the history of their team. However, i do believe that true football lovers have an appreciation for the history of their club even if the average fan doesn't.
You mention no real significant English football history pre 1960, however events such as the Munich disaster is a huge part of English football history not just Manchester United.

I'm with Warncken, I am a Liverpool fan and trust me, the biggest fear that any Liverpool supporter has at the moment is that Manchester United might get to 19 titles before us! Even winning their 3rd European Cup sits uneasy with us.

We remember that Matt Busby was the Liverpool club captain before he was ever a Manchester man, even if the press don't.

These century-long memories are silly but we love them; they're what give each season's achievements a meaning, a place.

When Chelsea won their first title in 50 years under Mourinho, no Liverpool fan cared. We just shrugged and thought '16 more to go, guys' (15 now, eek! haha). When Manchester United hit their 17th in May, I had to put on a little more deodorant...

...and change my shirt entirely when they got their third European Cup. Well, it had been a couples of weeks and people were compaining!

I'm not sure how much I agree with the statement that Brazil tends to forget its legends either. I have a friend who lives in Rio and is a MAD Flamengo fan. She constantly eulogises about Zico and loves to remind me of the only meeting between her club and mine (which you reported on some weeks ago, an article I forwarded to her, your words get around!)

Once again, just want to say this is the best blog on the football site, keep it up!

Zephyryx

Whenever I think of Denilson I picture - step over, step over, step over, step over, step over, step over, step over, step over, step over...whoops lost the ball again.

A prime example of the problems with someone believing in there own hype, without having the substance to back it up I suppose!

Hi Tim

Fantastic article as always, however to say that in England we do not care about tradition is partially true - look at the fading popularity of the FA cup, once a cup every team strived to win now is not so high on the big clubs agendas, Not something I agree with but money talks these days. Being a Manchester United fan however we, as you know are a club steeped in History one we look back on with pride - Pre 1992! This year also being an important year as we may level Liverpools league tally on 18, which will bring some more banter we can throw at them lot down the road!

great reading Tim - keep up the good work!

Hey Tim

Why did you think Denilson's spell at Dallas was a bad one. When ever i saw the highlights of the games he was lighting them up with his tricks. He is clearly no longer a top player or even a level below but he still has the skills.

I thought his stint at dallas was the best thing that came to mls. Beckham might have raised awareness of the sport but denilson kept them more interested in the sport with his skill. A perfect remedy to the league which thrives on past top players, similar to it was when they tried it 25 years ago with best & pele.

Can I quickly request that at least one of these articles uses a club other than Arsenal when naming an example of "international squads" ?

I understand they are often jabbed at as being "a club of foreigners", and that blog entries can quickly make use of this fact to make an easy point (which in turn probably supports aforementioned jeering).

But they are not the only club in Britain that has the diversity and tolerance of a squad assembled from around the world.

Tim,

Just to echo other members' disagreement with your point about the number of titles not being relevant in England.

As a Liverpool fan our current 18 to 17 lead over Man Utd's number of league titles is very important to me. The idea that this season they'll finish 1 point ahead of us to equal our record fills me with dread, while the prospect of us edging them into 2nd place to open up a two title gap fills me with delight.

Throughout the 90's and 00's bragging rights have been all important, and despite Man Utd's dominance I've always been able to say to my Man Utd supporting 'friends' that Liverpool have more league titles and more European Cups - I don't even want to contemplate losing these two records!

Tim may not be right about Liverpool and Man Utd fans counting championships, but he's definitely right about younger fans and gloryhunters believing that football 'began' in 1992, and using only recent players as their points of reference.

The one for me is Makelele- you constantly hear people going on about the 'Makelele position' and claiming no-one played it like he did previously, when there were hundreds, thousands of players who played that position in the past. He was a good player but not the 'inventor of a position' as I've encountered numerous people trying to claim on message boards.

Tims comments are usually well written and researched and these are no exception.

I have to agree with the majority of points here. Despite the comments on essentially a manufactured rivalry (just ask older Utd and Liverpool fans which rival was more important right up until the 1980's) there is a wilful, and media led neglect of football in England before 1992. History (on an national basis never mind football) seems to be an embarrassment to footballs spin merchants and TV pundits, even to the FA. As I read in a Tranmere programme commenting on the same phenomena recently, "if we discount everything before 1992, that means England never won the World cup!".

However, I have to say the comment on David Price and Fabregas was perhaps ill thought out. While I love the football Arsenal play under Wenger, although that is decreasingly the case in recent seasons, that pleasure has always been tempered by the fact that the current top flight is so poor. By contrast, the side Price, alongside Brady, Rix, Sunderland, Stapleton, and O'leary played in, produced superb football in an era when from 1st to 21st there were no really 'dire' teams as there are, quite frankly from 11th downwards today, and every match was a test of the sides ability. Not their inability as it often with the current side. Great though Arsenals 2003-04 side was, would they have gone unbeaten in the 60's or 70's? No chance.

On that note it's often embarrassing listening to pundits, as the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ presenter did yesterday going on about the 'better' players of today. He 'might' be right if we are talking the 'big four' (and even then...) but the rest of the EPL? I think not.

As for Ronaldo, and the Brazilians better grasp of historical connections, I would tend, having spoken at length about football to Latins in Europe never mind in South America, to agree. Ronaldo himself is a symbolic link to a golden era for Brazil's national team. How easily, when criticizing the current team, we forget that between 1994 and 2002, they reached three World Cup Finals winning two of them.

Perhaps when England do that, we can comment on the failings of Brazil. Until then, even a Ronaldo who is a shadow of his former self (in playing terms) might yet produce a last huzzah.

Let's hope so.

Oh, and cue the comments from the usual suspects about the Utd v Liverpool rivalry. *sigh*

Denilson was all step-overs and no end product......kinda reminds me of another over-hyped winger

Splendid article once again Tim. I was on holiday last week so I missed your article on Ronaldo's return to football.

How can I find the article to read on the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ website as the link has been replaced with this one? I am sure it will be an interesting one with Ronaldo been one of my favourite players of all time. Cheers

Post 17 - I just save this in my bookmarks.

/blogs/timvickery/

Post 15, fathomer 1 - what nonsense about the quality of the top flight being poor from 11th downwards! The top 2 divisions are much stronger now and this is why it is so hard to come up from the championship and why a team like Hull can adapt and get into the top half by embarrasing many of the more established teams.

It is ridiculous to compare a modern Arsenal to that of the 1960's or 70's in any meaningful way, but if you must, surely because of the array of nationalities and the greater competition to get into the first team today, the modern team would be much better and would go unbeaten for longer!

While you may be sickened by commentators extolling the virtues of modern players, it is in fact more often the case that players from the past are put on a pedestal, when it is not impossible that many of the them would look ordinary if playing today.

I watched Denílson at FC Dallas. He really was awful. He played 8 games, all of which involved him trying to justify being paid silly amounts by doing daft moves in the middle of the park. The players didn't like him and the fans didn't either. He was dropped after a while and spent the rest of the season on the bench before being released. MLS was way too fast and physical for him.

Sorry to continue talking about English club rivalries rather than Brazilian domestic football but I have to say I don't know why the Arsenal fan *sighs* and refers to the Liverpool/Man United rivalry as being manufactured - and how 'older' pre-1980 fans would, presumably, single out Everton and City as these sides' true rivals.

Believe me, as an 11year-old boy in 1977 (does that qualify me as an older fan?) I hated Utd for winning the FA Cup Final and messing up Liverpool's chance of winning the treble - although it has to be said that winning the European Cup the following Wednesday blew away any upset as the Reds' League and European Cup achievement dwarfed United's 'trifling' Cup success!

Forest then in many ways became Liverpool's fiercest rivals for a few years as the two clubs contested European supremacy as well as domestic Championships and Cups over a five year period that also had other intriguing sub-plots such as which team's goalkeeper was the true England No.1 - Clemence or Shilton? That rivalry then drastically receded with Forest's decline.

Local rivalries are always going to run deep and rivalries borne out of success can possibly cut deeper. Liverpool and United's rivalry is both local and borne out of a combined 35 League Championship triumphs, 8 European Cups, 18 FA Cups and 9 League Cups and unless each of these triumphs can be described as manufactured then you sir, are *sighing* right out of your Arse!

(we won't include any ridiculous 'world club championships' to that list mind you, as that IS completely manufactured.. arf!)

Hi Tim,

Great little blog there.

Who do you feel have been the breakthrough players this season in south america as a whole?

How long do you think these players will ply their trade in their native lands before the euro pirates steal them away?

Hi Tim - interesting read as always, but can't agree with your thoughts on the English appreciation of footballing heritage. What about the nonsensical drivel about the ?magic/tradition of the F.A Cup? that is reeled out and rammed down our throats about twice a month from now until May every single year? The ludicrously over reverent opening titles to each broadcast (complete with the obligatory and pointless old style music), the trotting out before the cameras of rather bemused looking foreigners (at gun point, it would seem) to proclaim that they?ve always dreamed of playing in a competition which, by any account, probably received little or no coverage in their home countries, etc etc etc. This self created and self perpetuating myth that is the ?magic of the cup? would be harmless enough were it confined to England. But it seems to be used as a method of belittling other footballing nations, be it Scotland (which has its own proud cup heritage and is completely ignored by the national media), or countries like Italy or Spain, where there is no passion for domestic knock out football, the relevance of which only lies in the opportunity to qualify for continental competition.

As a native Corinthians fan I think the signing of Ronaldo will be a disaster; not doubt we brazilians will never forget him but he's overweight, injury prone and more interested in socialising). Firstly he will spend most of his time on the sidelines recovering from injury. Knowing the Corinthians' fans well enough, they won't be have any patience to wait Ronaldo get fit, they'll want to see performances straight away otherwise the criticisms will flow.

As far as sale of merchandising goes, brazilians are not able to buy a new kit every year as in England, it is true that more people will be inclined to go to the stadium to see Ronaldo play, but that will quickly wear off (either because he won't be playing or because he hasn't been performing).

I was very happy the way they conducted themselves during the second division, I thought management was wise by not signing so called 'big stars' and seemed more concerned with building a group of players that worked well as team. I thought the philosophy would continue and we would stand a better chance of long term success (just like Arsenal is doing) without spending non-sense money.

I don't think we'll win Copa Libertadores in the near future, I hope I'm wrong...!

I agree with fellow bloggers that English fans do care about their history, why else would they sing 'shit club no history' to the MK Dons fans???? :-)

To Miraglyth,

How many Premier League clubs have less English (or British) players in their squad than Arsenal? Perhaps Liverpool, but they have Pennant (although he's probably leaving soon), Gerrard, Carragher and Keane, while Arsenal only really have Walcott, plus perhaps Wilshere (who is 17 and has made around one prem appearance) and gavin hoyte (who hasn't made any this season i don't think).

Again not sure about english fans not living in the past...........liverpool fans have been doing it for nearly 20 years :)

Hi Tim

Great blog as always. A historical point, Corinthians merged to form Corinthian Casuals in 1939, long after the tours of Brazil mentioned in the blog. They did not enter English domestic competitions, but toured regularly. The did however play and beat (usually heavily) the top English pro sides in the pre WWI era.

Liverpool - Man U a 'manufactured' rivarly??

Not so long ago it was not uncommon for Mancunians to watch Man City at home while United were away, and next week United at home while City played away.

The same thing was happening the Liverpool.

Regional rivalries like United - Liverpool, Forest -Derby, Chelsea - West Ham,Arsenal or Spurs are the truest and anything but manufactured.

What a surprise I got when I read the comments from heavenschimney and captainmagenta. Not.

First, Heavenshcimney is of course correct, you cannot compare football from another era with the current one. In any country. However, apart from that he was talking as so many do, fresh from the Sky script. Do you think I based my opinions on just my own view? Many of my generation are thoroughly disillusioned with the rubbish they see far too often that is then passed off as 'bit of defensively orientated game that' by the Sky (and others) pundits. What they really mean is 'nothing happened of any note or quality in the whole 90 minutes'.

There seems to be this misconception. sadly ascribed to by many, mainly armchair fans, that just because the top flight of English football is overburdened with overseas players, it 'must' be better. I would suggest to those who live with this, head firmly planted in the sand attitude, that instead of berating people for 'not believing' that they actually watch the superb passing and movement, tackling, and ability to take men on and beat them, whilst dodging flying tackles t that made up 90 minutes of football in the days of yore. Modern football is NOT built around such tenets. Speed, long balls, and massed defence is the order of today. Anyone who really thinks that watching spitting, snarling overpaid greyhounds is preferable to watching the elegance and skill of the likes of Brady, Weller, Francis (G), Bell, Heighway (or dare I say Waddle, Hoddle, Gazza?) to name but a few, is in dire need of checking out the 90 minute DVDS of that era. Nostalgia nothing, we have lost more than we have gained.

As for championship sides struggling, I would suggest watching FL games nowadays on a regular basis. It's not a pretty sight. Teams are now roughly playing at a level one down from twenty or thirty years ago. It's no wonder they struggle.

As for the comments about the Liverpool v Utd derby, depressingly predictable as they were, I would point out that the author belongs to the current generation of fans, not the one to which I was referring. As someone who teaches many of the older generations on Merseyside, I can assure him that, although disliking Manchester (full stop) is prevalent among the older generations (for socio political reasons) in footballing terms a Mersey derby win or a manc derby win still hold far greater meaning to them.

Again, I do not put forward such views based on 'my' humble opinion alone.

Talking to continental fans I notice another thing too, that being they do not regard their leagues with such rose tinted glasses.

Feliz ano novo Tim!

I would just like to ask if you think Ronaldo's Corinthians will be title contenders for the Brasileiro Serie A 2009 season? Or do you expect Sao Pauo to claim a 7th title with most of there squad staying at Sao Paulo and the addition of goal machine Washington joining them from my beloved Fluminense.
What do you also make of Fluminense chances in this coming season to?

Saude,
Luke Vooght

West London Blues, I can assure you, knowing as many Red and Blue noses as I do, they would rather chuck themselves in the Mersey than watch each others sides if they aren't at home.

It's a common myth (the media again...) that the two sets of supporters 'get on'. There didn't use to be violence between them on derby days as the Scouse are thick as thieves (no pun) but there was no love lost between them. Now, with so few locals actually able to afford to go, an ugly, violent undercurrent has sprung up to sour it further.

As for Mancs going to each others games, again, no City fan would be seen, and I quote, " dead handing over their hard earned cash to 'that shower'". ;)

The idea of them going to each others games is a myths m8, pure and simple.

It's bit like saying Arsenal and Spurs fan would do that, the rivalry is that fierce. Not a chance.......

You implied that Ronaldo is going to wear number 99 because Corinthians celebrate their centenary in 2010. Ronaldo actually wore 99 at his last club (AC Milan) so it may just be a coincidence that it is the centenary as he may have chosen that number anyway regardless.

Rosinha85: Robbie Keane is Irish, and therefore not English (nor British). And how many games has Pennant played? Very few, if any as he's been rotting in the reserves for quite some time now. Im not a gooner but if you compare both Liverpools and Arsenals' full squads im guessing you would find more British players in Arsenal's squad. Word to yo motha.

Fathomer 1 I respect your view and you have some interesting points, however I take exception at the notion that an opinion of a higher standard in the modern Premiership must be that of an armchair fan!

Either way, it really is all about opinion and I think the current Premiership is very entertaining. If you were to say, however, that it was no longer as good value for money compared to the rare ol' times, given the inflated ticket prices, then you might have a point.

Am i right in remember Denilson was once quoted as saying he chose the squad number 20 for the 1998 World Cup because he believed he was "twice as good as Pele" (number 10 of course)?

Mental! Even if it was true (and it clearly wasn't), you wouldn't say it would you?! It's Pele!!!

Maybe 99 is his weight in stone!

in response to the guy who must be referring to ronaldo as an overhyped winger with no end product.

r u sure m8? does 42 goals from the wing = no end product!????

Tim,
I was wondering if you could shed some light on what on earth has happened to River?!

I had been following them on and off for a while having spent some time in Argentina, but after a spell of not checking up I find they are rock bottom.

I'm guessing there are some interesting tales behind their form?

I might be on my own here but I see similarities in what Corinthians have done by signing Ronaldo with what Cardiff City did last season with signing Robbie Fowler.

A big name which was primarily designed to shift merchandise with the faint hope that a once great striker could re-live the glory days but inevitbly will spend most of the time un-fit and dissapointing when on the field.

Am I on my own here??!!

P.S. I am not for one moment insinuating that Ronaldo and Fowler in their primes were in the same leagues in terms of ability.

Anybody that thinks the technical standard in England has improved throughout the league since 1992 watches a different game from me.

I watched Hull v Villa last week for example and players were struggling to control the ball and were easily panicked into kicking the ball in whatever direction they were facing, with the only foot they were able to use.... and that was on a pitch like a bowling green.

In the past players played on awful pitches yet were far better technically. many modern players just couldnt play on past pitches.

The public are being brainwashed into thinking that post 1992 football is far better, when it is of a lower technical standard, far less competitive, out of the reach of the average working man and played by men who go to ground if there is a slight breeze.

So what if Hull did well for 14 games?
In the past teams could get promoted and actually challenge for the title.

Pace, strength, power, height and stamina are what is required in the modern british player. A shame.

In the 40s and 50s it was very common for people to go to City one week, Utd the next etc. for the person who said it never happened.
Nowadays supporting one team means hating others.

Ok, so the British game is very physical currently. But wasn't it always so?

I think there is a decent level of technical skill in English football, and also a great variety in styles of play, but it is one of the great things about football that all that skill can be down by hoofing the ball to a powerful forward who scrambles it over the net.

I think those talking about the good old days risk sounding like grumpy old men/women who are bitter about how the game has progressed. But that is life, you have to move with the times and appreciate what you have.

"out of the reach of the average working man" is currently a valid point though. I live in Northern Ireland but I do not understand how clubs are allowed to charge what they do into matches.

I meant to say "all that skill can be undone"

Love the article, i think Brazilian football gave us attacking football and total football, soemthing we should all be proud off.

Im sure there are fans all over the world who take history seriously.

If you read the posts from this blog you will see that LFC fans are certainly worried about Uniteds dominance off the last twenty years. However Rafa is building a side that can dominate for the next 20 years quite easily.

Also, in Spain you have the continued dominance of Real and Barca, one which goes back decades, Italy has the Milan twins plus Juve to throw in for good measure as well as the occasional trophy for Rome.

All football fans know about rivalry and history of Sao Paulo and Flamengo, Boca and River Plate.

its only a matter of time before one of these clubs produces something special.

Tim

How do you think Ronaldo will be remembered when he retires?

Personally, I believe he is the greatest player to have ever played the game. I hope he does well at Corinthians.

He is the most complete striker I have ever seen. He has won so many trophies for different clubs and for country, and many individual honours too: the Ballon D'or twice and the FIFA World Player of the Year 3 times.

He is the highest goalscorer in the history of the World Cup.

Tim, do you think he will be placed amongst the all-time greats, i.e. Pele, Maradona, etc. when he retires?

anyone who has a problem with MK Dons 'lift and shift' must therefore think the same about Arsenal.

They detached themselves from their traditional Woolwich home (and moniker) and rebranded themselves simply Arsenal. I conced that they did not move as far but the principle remains. Also transport was not as good back when this happened and I imagine a great deal of loyal fans were left unable to watch their beloved Woolwich Arsenal due to not being able to get up to highbury from the south east of london.

Sorry, i know that was off topic.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Hi Tim

Quality article once again

Just wondered how important you view the Coppa Sao Paulo.....being played at the moment with the Juniors of the teams....is this the elite youngsters preparing themselves for battle later with the senior teams or is this another "windo-shopping" exercise for cash rich European sides to get a good look at whats on offer??

I see my father in law get so excited about some of the players and feel he is to be let down...again.....when they dont come through....

am i way of the mark?

Glad to see that the web managers can recognise talent - even if they probably can't spell it! Good to read a regular article from you.
Your next job is to get the ridiculously un-ear friendly Dotton fired and take over his show!

hi tim,
great blog as always, south american football and its culture really fascinates me. i also listen to the world football phone in on 5 live.
can i ask you do you have a favourite club in south america?

I live in Recife in the Northeast of Brazil and i support Liverpool and here in REC Sport Clube do Recife which was the first team in the northeast to win the Copa do Brasil in 2008 thumping Inter, Palmeiras (all season a toal of 5 times) Vasco on pens and Corithians in the final. English football is very good but its the same big 4 every year which make it a little boring. Looking at the table I think Liverpool will snatch it in 2009. Whereas, here in Brasil the serie A has different teams in the top 4 every season which makes it very entertaining. On the other hand its nice to go to Ilha do Retiro and see Sport play. But, the condition of the stadium is just terrible. The atmosphere is great though with just 35,000 in the ground it sounds like double that

Late as ever, but Happy New Year.

Some of the best blogging on any subject, anywhere on the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ, and love the FiveLive phone-ins.

Have a great 2009.

9. At 10:04am on 05 Jan 2009, The Dangle Formerly Known as Sir - (CCFC - Social Events Officer) wrote:

Whenever I think of Denilson I picture - step over, step over, step over, step over, step over, step over, step over, step over, step over...whoops lost the ball again.

-----------

Bwahhahaha, yeah me too! And the horrid mint coloured shirt of Betis.

I agree Brazilian football has a certain nostalgia about it, which perhaps English football doesn't lack but it's just that I feel differently about them. I love south american flair and the gung-ho, "can't be bothered chasing back to defend" attitude. It's brilliant to watch and beautiful on the eye because I don't care about the result. Probably.

Good post Tim.

Fathomer1 - although I'm sorry you found my message depressing, I suggest that you're perhaps just depressed generally.

It's a tough call, I agree, as to which game might be considered the most 'rivalrous', and as an Arsenal fan it clearly irks you that Liverpool vs Man Utd is sometimes touted as such, and rightfully so - who's to say it's any greater than say Oxford United vs Swindon Town or even Spurs vs Arsenal?

But to say it's 'manufactured' (as if somehow by pesky modern video game-playing kids who don't remember 'the good old days') needs defining and your responses are just pedantic.

I am a younger fan (16) but me and mates always banter between Manchester united and Liverpool and we are all to proud to remind each other of our great pasts, we do reflect on the great legends of the game and anyone who thinks makelele invented that role should actually consider looking up the past and greats of football, who actually did make the position. Althought i do agree that some of the younger fans are just there for the glory and could't tell you how many league title they have got are even last weeks score are who the next game is agaisnt, but i think it is unfair of you to group all the younger generation of football fans in the same pot, as some of us actually do care about the past.
Also good post Tim.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Mr Vickery, you cruel man, although I do like this ruthless side!

"i was going to add that perhaps his head with current hair style was an attempt to look like the flake" - forget the attack of discipline, its all good fun, a bit of humour goes a long way?! haha

Interesting blog and some interesting replies.

I think fans tend to get more interested in their club's history the longer they support them and the older they get. Let's leave out big clubs though - when you're a very successful club, you do to some extent have to use all-time records to keep your interest, so a knowledge of club history is essential. Hence the Man U - Liverpool sniping on here.

But there is a statute of limitations and I think Tim's right - it's generational. As a Notts County fan I can happily wallow in our successful top flight seasons of 81-84 (I wasn't there) and 91/2 (I was) but I have no interest in the Lawton era or anything pre 1970s. There is no film of those days and it just feels too remote (I was born in 1968).

I would welcome comments from Derby fans though. I saw in some article somewhere a few years back that they voted Steve Bloomer as their favourite ever Ram. Hard to believe given that there's probably no-one left alive who saw him play!

warncken, i totally agree.

i'm good friends with a man u fan and a liverpool fan, and live in liverpool. the man u fan has been talking about overhauling the number of titles for years, and the liverpool fans have been worrying about it for years.

i think its true that football before the 60's has largely been forgotten, but its also because its so hard to relate it to todays game. although football was very different 40 years ago, it was literally a different ball game 100 years ago.

Man Utd fan here from sunny and hot South Africa. I can assure you that every Liverpool fan back home is hoping and praying they take the Prem this season. They are painfully aware that we are right on their shoulders. Been supporting the Red Devils for over 30 years and it riled me to see Liverpool take the title so many times. The claim by Liverpool fans to being the best in England has on countless occasions been vehemently substantiated by the fact that they have 18 titles. I for one, even though I would like to see Man U lift the Champs League a few more times sincerely hope that SAF stays on long enough to equal and perhaps better Liverpools tally. SAF has publicly said that his young team will in time equal Liverpool's record but I am sure that privately he wants to be the one to do it and perhaps set a new record! I remain confident that come May 2009 Utd will have equalled the record. Who knows, that may even inspire the wily old Scot to take Man U to even greater heights.

Agree with previous posters, Tim's is the best blog by a mile.

Just wanted to say that I spent most Saturday's in the 70's playing for one of our school teams. In the holidays or half term I would go with up to 8 friends to see either Liverpol or Everton - whoever was at home. In those days 30-50p entrance was not extrortionate (probably equivalent to a tenner?). I was 100% Evertonian and always hoped we would be at home on our Saturday's off but we all enjoyed 'live' football then whereever it was - there was very little of it on TV. Rivalry certainly existed between the two clubs but I don't really think anyone hated other teams (mmmm... except possibly Leeds) in those days.

To griperrocks:

ok fair point, Keane is not British, but players from the Republic of Ireland have always played in England and generally don't seem to be considered as 'foreigners' in the same way that a French/Brazilian/Nigerian player might be.

Regardless, you are also right that Pennant has played very few times this season; according to the official Liverpool website he's made 3 league appearances this season and 1 in the league cup.

If you are to compare arsenal and liverpool in terms of 'British' squad players, you really have to do so without counting the league cup because we all know that arsenal play an extremely young side every year, but very few of them actually ever break into the first team on a regular basis.

Arsenal Prem Lge appearances: Gavin Hoyte 1, Walcott 13 (9 starts), Ramsey 5 (all as sub), Wilshere 1 (as a sub)

Liverpool: Gerrard 18, Carragher 20, Pennant 3

Granted, there's not much between them in terms of numbers, but Gerrard and Carragher are regulars whereas Arsenal don't have 1 British regular, even Walcott before he was injured was guaranteed to start.

Excellent read, as ever, Tim.

Don't fancy showing your UK-based colleagues how it should be done, do you?

Definitely a nerdy comment but Corinthians FC and Casuals FC were 2 seperate clubs up until the 1930's when they merged to form Corinthian Casuals.

The team that visited Brazil in the early years of the last century was Corinthians FC.

CONSIDER YOURSELF TOLD.

I hope Ronaldo can stay fit for a good stretch and end his career on a high. If he does he'll score a hatful of goals even without any pace, the man's a legend.

Just to echo most other comments, this blog really is excellent every single week..............so well done! :-)

Just realised I meant to post the above comment on last week's blog, doh!

This one was good too though; and yeah as a Man Utd fan I can't wait to (hopefully) equal Liverpool's number of league titles

very entertaining blog. i hate to say it but ronaldo's days are over, even in the recent pictures of ronaldo at corinthians he still look unfit. reminds me of thomas brolin.

"glad you liked the line about Ronaldo in a 99 shirt looking like a giant ice cream - i saw going to add that perhaps his head with current hair style was an attempt to look like the flake - then had an attack of discipline and took it out."

That discipline didn't last long did it Mr V!

Anybody who thinks football was more skillful 20 years ago really ought to read Charles Hughes's The Official FA Guide to Basic Team Coaching from that era. In it he basically concludes (erroneously) that moves of 5 passes or more are effectively useless and the sole focus of football should be getting the ball forward as quickly as possible. This guy was in charge of the whole development of English football from the mid-80s to the late 90s and English football still hasn't fully recovered from the damage he caused.

Tim,

Denilson has gone on trial at Bolton - if you were a betting man would you think he will gain a contract?

If he does, how do you think he will fair.

I am intrigued to see how he does, but I think that the pace and power would have been too much for him when he was in is prime, let alone now.

P.S. How did he manage to get so many caps for Brazil?

I find it interesting that throughout your analysis of the 60's and the renaissance of football that took place then, you have failed to mention the first British team to win the European Cup. A team of true great: Celtic's Lisbon Lions of 1967. Hail Hail

Good article but I disagree re the long memories for titles.

Liverpool fans are very worried that ManU will overtake them in terms of championships while Celtic are hellbent on claiming Rangers' record of 51 titles. History matters as much in the UK as anywhere else, possibly more.

72 - after watching Denílson at Palmeiras throughout 2008, i'd be very surprised if he gets picked up by Bolton because he's far too slow and will struggle with the physical side of the game in the EPL. Denílson still has technical ability but whoever offered him the trial has not done their homework

On reflection, if Bolton were really interested in signing a decent Brazilian forward they should have taken a look at Denílson’s teammate at Palmeiras, Kleber. The player has just returned to Dynamo Kiev but the Ukraine club seem keen to offload him. Kleber reminds me a little of Tevez - both have terrier-like qualities – but Kleber puts himself about a bit more (though he can be a bit too physical at times!). Apparently, Everton were interested in him a few weeks ago but nothing came of it. One thing is certain; many of the Palmeiras fans were pretty upset that their club and Traffic (their backers) didn’t stump up the money to buy Kleber. But there was barely a whimper when Denílson was let go.

How highly rated are Manchester United youngsters Rodrigo Possebon and the Da Silva twins in their homeland?

@76

I would have thought that was because they were expecting new players in. I see they have signed Kerrison on loan from Desportivo Brasil, and also the talented Marquinhos from Vitória.

@ Tim

What do you make of Desportivo Brasil? From what it looks like they it is merely a talent factory set up to export players to Europe for vast sums of money?

78 - they've got some new players but many of the palmeiras fans protested against the club and Traffic (a football management company) because they wanted Kleber back.

And Palmeiras have NOT got Keirrison (even though they made an official announcement about him joining the club). keirrison has signed a deal with Traffic but will probably stay with Coritiba for the next few months.

the Desportiva Brasil you mentioned is a new 'club' set up by Traffic as a way of bringing in new players just to sell them on

I was under the impression that Kerrison had been signed by Desportivo from Cortiba and then had been loaned to Palmeiras at the start of this month?

well, Palmieras announced him as a new player but then a few days later Keirrison himself said he'd actually signed with Traffic and that there was a possibilty he may go to Palmeiras.
Most of Palmeiras' new players have been bought by Traffic but that means they can sell them as soon as they want and Palmeiras don't have much say in it.
going back to Keirrison, i'd be very surprised if he does in fact join Palmeiras especially after being named in the recent FIFA 'players to look out for in 2009' list.
Desportivo is just a set up that Traffic have. i think it's only been around for a few years though it does have commercial links with Manchester United and a couple of other teams.

I saw that apparantly Joan Laporta is planning on using Kerrison as a makeweight in a plan to sign Aguero from Atletico...

Great blog mate. Love your contributions on Radio 5 Live too.

I'm big a fan of South American football culture. I'm a socio of both River Plate in Buenos Aires and Nacional in Montevideo.

I think it's sad that television income has meant South American and European clubs are so far apart economically these days. Even up to 1978 only one player of the Argentine team that won the World Cup was playing outside South America.

Difficult to get the toothpaste back in the tube and I'm not against progress at all. It's sad to see proud clubs reduced to nursery status though.

I'm an old codger and remember great players like Pele, Pedro Rocha and Tostao who never played club football outside the Americas.

Keep up the good work mate!