What is acceptable violence?
- 12 Mar 07, 05:39 PM
Glasgow - Friends of mine know that I don鈥檛 like to beat about the bush. So, here goes...why did Ireland coach Eddie O鈥橲ullivan accuse a Scottish player of And this leads to another question: What is an acceptable level of violence on a rugby pitch?
I have been quiet on the blog over the last two weeks because was hard to take. There has been much gnashing of teeth in this country, and even people with no teeth have been provided with them so that they can join in. But I left Murrayfield at the weekend with a feeling that Scotland had played much better and that they should have which turned out to be not quite as good as the hype.
It was a clean game unless some news arises after I write this column. A column written just on the 50 hour deadline for a citing to be put in place. But every day we see acts that are extremely physical.
When is it okay to stand on an opposing player? How high can you tackle someone? Is it ok to lift them up in the tackle and then drive them back ten yards and dump them on their back? Is it ever okay to stand on a player? If an opposing player is in a maul, can you hurl yourself at them with full force?
I was 15 stone four lbs and six foot four inches tall. My son, capped aged 20, is the same height and now nearly 17 stone. People are bigger and stronger.
Go on then, discuss what is acceptable violence. What do you accept as the limit of the roughness to which anyone should be subjected when they walk onto a rugby pitch?
Wales 27-18 England
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I really miss the days when the camera
didn't pull away from the fist fights that occasionally happen in grudge matches. In my view, that sort of violence is acceptable morally, but obviously must be punished to keep the game disciplined. The sort of violence I think is unacceptable is the 'sneaky' violence, which players can't respond to. Choking would obviously fall underthis category.
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there is no level of violence that is acceptable outside the rules.
the physical confruntation of rugby allied to the high skills and tempo of the modern game is what makes it the great sport it is.
it truly is "a man's game" (sorry ladies) and because of this there can be no room for violence.
When someone gets blindsided or whatever people trot out the "man's game" and "handbags" or some other cliche and it makes my blood boil.
It is precisely because Rugby is an ultra physical game that is has to be played within the rules and there can be no room for violence or dirty play.
there are enough opportunities to physically dominate your opponent within the rules without resorting to any skulduggery.
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Great question you've posed. This is something we've been discussing in my Sports Studies class at college with varying responses from players of differnt sports. It's hard for people who dont play rugby to accept the physical requirements of our game. Once you start accepting violence it becomes part of the sport and hard to erradicate. As a player i know that rucking(raking) and hard tackles are accepted, yet tripping, punching and stamping is frowned upon and penalised by the referee. I feel that as long as a player uses assertive behaviour to win the ball, and not aggressive behaviour(deliberate intent to hurt someone) then their 'actions' are acceptable. However my father, a former (high level) forward feels that you must do whatever is neccessary to dominate your opponent!!
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Having seen the picture of Ronan O Gara lying unconscious on the ground it must be emphasized that John Hayes prompt and decisive action in clearing O Gara's airway was vital and is to be commended.
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What is Eddie O'Sullivan accusing us of exactly ??? It was a mistake and it could have been nothing to do with a scottish player anyway ! I have just read in the hearld newspaper that we have atempted to murder Ronan O'Gara. I like the Irish and i would love to see them win the six nations i have read on a website that Briam O'Driscoll has said it was not a malcious game so what is all the fuss about ?
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I agree with Ned, no level of violence accepted, but plenty of aggression, that's what makes it a man鈥檚 game.
However the key to the whole thing is not to get caught, by ref, by linesman and now by TV. In the near future it will also be mobile phone, digital camera, down the pub afterwards, at your girlfriends house or wherever else the media are willing to pay for.
The game is good right now, hard I agree and at times tempers are lost. Who is caught is generally punished and who whinges generally looses credibility. If there is one thing I learnt as a player it is that once the game is finished it is finished. I don't remember anybody setting out to do serious harm to another although opportunities arose at times and have been taken over time, Mostly by the very best in the game.
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As a Player the new stamping law is slightly frustrating. When the ball is trapped in a ruck it should be removed and if a body is in the way be it intentional or not then it should be persuaded to move. Then the ball can be won and play can continue instead of stopping the play for yet another scrum.
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There should not be any 'blindsiding' or stamping in a perfect world of rugby.
However, as a former player myself, I am only too well aware of the reasons players give away penalties and infringe in a technical manner so as to prevent the opposition from scoring (usually a chance of 7 points preferring to give away 3).
When referees were less hot on infringements in the tackle area an old fashioned 'shoeing' was an excellent deterrent to players killing the ball. Now though, this has gone at the highest levels, although some games are still ruined by players killing the ball when the referee is weak and fussy, but these are becoming rarer.
On the whole players who dish out cheap shots are usually those on the receiving end later on, especially when referees and match commissioners do little about such things.
Its not a perfect world and players dont play within the rules all the time. I suggest finding culprits and punishing them is the only way to deal with these situations. The O'Gara incident is very unfortunate and the players will know who is guilty IF it was deliberate. If they are certain, charges should be brought, and witness statements taken. If they aren't they should now keep quiet.
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Technically speaking there should be no allowance whatsoever for any "violence". Anything that is deemed violent, deliberate or accidental (i.e. a high tackle), should be punished.
We're not talking about players getting battered and bashed around in what is a highly physical sport. The vast majority of players respect the wellbeing of their oppenents and do not set out to seriously harm them. Those who overstep the mark should face the consequences.
As for the O'Gara incident. It was completely innappropriate for Eddie O'Sullivan to start making such bold accusations without actually watching the footage back. You can clearly see that O'Gara falls awkwardly on his neck - but there's not a Scottish player anywhere near him. I just hope O'Sullivan has the good grace to apologise for the aspersions he was castings.
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I think its a good question to pose, especially in an environment where every international seems "must-win". I think any level of aggressive play, whilst visible and within the rules is acceptable, even if it leads to injuries. It is a contact sport after-all.
But whats not acceptable are some of the "dark arts", which go unseen. Such as choking, gouging, testicle-grabbing, biting (rare). These tactics must be stamped out of the game, forever.
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I find this hard to take in. ROG was undoubtedly hit hard by Hines, but in a legitimate tackle. There is no camera evidence of foul play, also if as Eddie O'Sullivan claims that several of his players saw a Scot 'choking' ROG, then why as far as I could see were no Irish players accusing or pulling a Scottish player off ROG as a consequence; I would have thought that if I had seen a team mate of mine being choked, I would have 'remonstrated' with his assaillant. I think it was an accident that happens in rugby and fortunately for the quick thinking of Hayes amongst others, the consequences are not more serious. I only hope that this does not affect ROG's confidence or affection for the game as he has been one of the standout performers in this years 6N.
On the subject of what is legitimate, one of the traits that I abhor in rugby is the droppping of the knees on to a try scorer's back after he has scored; it is cowardly and spiteful.
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In the modern age, referees often penalise players rucking others out the way. But as said earlier if its not intent to hurt or injure someone then it should be allowed to clear the breakdown- how often is someone lying on the wrong side not penalised by the referee, only for an opposing player to be penalised for rucking or "stamping"? It slows the game down and players now know they are protected from an old-fashioned rucking, as long as it isn't on joints or the head, and is reasonable, referees should turn a blind eye to allow the game to flow.
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Acceptable level of violence?
Mmm quite a poser - but here goes.
In ten years of playing a decent standard of rugby I have had to use my boot on three occassions to remove bodies out of the way.
I have once lost my rag to such a point that I attempted to throw a punch, but in the process realised I was still holding the ball in my hand and the only thing I ended up throwing was the ball!
Rugby is a tough enough game (male or female versions) without stepping over the mark. That is why rugby players from Old Flipflops 5th XV through to the All Blacks are respected throughout the world.
Violence happens, occassionally - but I do not believe that anyone would intentionally try and strangle another player. Although being Welsh after this last weekend, we might as well blame Mauro Bergamasco - he's already got away with attempted murder once with that punch on Stephen Jones!
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Some things are regarded as beyond the pale - you never hear anyone refer to the Lions-Canterbury game in 1971 with jocularity for example....
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In my view anyone who accepts deliberate violence as an acceptable part of rugby or football is both immature and scary! Violence is the pathetic person's response to a dispute or feelings of anger. I have seen both rugby and, to a lesser extent, football match with kids as youns as 7 or 8 where deliberate punches & kicks were seen by the ref but went unpunished much to the delight of watching mums and dads! How scary is that? What are we trying to teach our kids about society and how we deal with conflicting interest? Violence rules ok? Look on the main street of any average Scottish town on the weekend and I think you'll find the answer.
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I feel that any sort of violence should be punished. I understand that it is difficult to contain yourself as a player, as rugby tends to bring out a sort of primal instinct to assert ones dominance over another. I feel that raking in the rucks is fine, so long as it is not used irresponsibly. as for dump tackling, I think we should have more!! theres nothing quite as good as watching someone get nailed with a perfectly legal tackle. it also changes defence on the back foot to defence on the front foot. More hits please!
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Andy says "you can clearly see O'Gara falls awkwardly on his neck - etc etc etc. Well Andy nothing in this incident can be seen clearly. Nobody has come out and said O'Gara became unconscious due to falling awkwardly on his neck. So what puts you in such a strong position to say what clearly happened? your statement is ridiculous in the extreme. what is clear is O'Gara went into a ruck conscious and ended up unconscious. surely isn't it vital that we all found out how this happened?
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Rugby Is a physical challenge I am a strong believer that in some instances excessive physicality should be aloud! For example rucking if a player is on the wrong side as long as his presence is impeding access to the ball should not only be aloud but encouraged as long as its not to the head or knees, England got pinged for this when the French 7 was on the wrong side he was not stamped on nor was a boot placed on his head or knees but France still got the penalty y? to answer the question poised earlier yes it is ok to lift someone in the tackle just don鈥檛 dump them on there head. Is been physical not violent chocking and a punch on a defenceless person is violent!
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I am eighteen and i have been laying rugby for twelve years now. It seems that every coach/referee has different views on what is acceptable.
Some allow scrag tackling (grabbing the shirt and throwing to the floor) whereas others don't. A high tackle is now perceived to be above the armpit line. And as far as "treading on other players" goes, as long as the opposing player is on the wrong side of the ruck blocking the ball, then "rucking" is acceptable. This is where the boot is making a backward motion, trying to pull the player out of the way, no downward motion.
There do need to be more solid rules in rugby, a lot comes down to the discretion of the referee. The referee of the England U20 v France U21 sin binned a player for killing the ball. This was their first offence. Other referees let them do it 2 or 3 times before having a word with them.
Thats my view anyway!
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Ronan O'Gara was at the bottom of a ruck (no place for a No 10 anyway) and could have been squashd by any number of beefy forwards. I don't think the Scots have any case to answer to, unlike Mister Mauro Bergamasco. There is a huge difference between two players having bit of a set to in a tight match when tensions and emotions are high, and who subsequently get a ten minute breather courtesy of the ref, and someone having a cheap shot at a player who isn't even looking in their direction! The latter is what needs stamping out. And like Jiffy said "what exactly are the linesmen looking at?"
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I don't know that it's appropriate to say that Scotland are cleared of this incident. EOS said from the start Scotland wouldn't be cited as TV footage was unclear. There are two ways ROG was choked either a player had their arm over his neck accidentally in the ruck (and may not even know) or it was deliberate. Given the position it's possible that this was a deliberate attempt to start a fight in which a penalty would be awarded to Scotland (kickable) to maybe win the game, hard to rule this out too ever since BOD on lions tour - albeit hard to believe a Scottish player would ever stoop that low? Whole thing unclear, maybe never to be resolved.
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I have played rugby for 30+ years and must admit that I have been trodden on allover this country,mainly for being where I should not have been,as a slow backrow it was always your duty.The only time I complained and still complain is if my head was the target.Rugby has and should always be a physical game.
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I think Hayes did a great thing, similar to what Umaga did for Charvis a few years ago. I think there is a danger of suffocation in rucks but i'm glad to see the players are now so quick to react, e.g. last years Anglo-Welsh final with mark jones running to help someone.
I think players would not wish suffocation on anyone and would do any thing to prevent it. The most malicious incident was Bergamasco punching Jones infornt of the cameras and getting away with it.
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All foul and dangerous play needs to be penalised. For example Troncon麓s deliberate stamping of Rees in Rome this weekend should have been penalised by the Ref. Instead he decided to ignore the incident- in doing so he has condoned Troncon麓s foul play. Another incident from the same game was of course Bergamasco麓s cheap punch on Stephen Jones - when asked about it the Japanese line judge says he has seen the incident and has no problem with it. Yet the citing Commissioner has called Bergamasco to book. The failure of the line judge to act cost Wales dear, as Bergamasco went onto score the winning try. He also committed foul play holding Morgan back in a dangerous welsh attacking move - I wonder if he will be called to book for that incident as well. He should do to ensure that cheating does not become a standard part of the international game.
I have noticed now that in rucks and mauls players often try to blast opponents out of the breakdown area by steaming in full force this is a typical tactic used by the ABs and which Wales tried on several occasions in Rome. I am not at all convinced that this is a legitimate manouver as it is often used to disrupt the oppositions ruck and slow up the ball.
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the scottish player should just own up, its as simple as that! its a disgrace to choke someone in the bottom of a ruck, when they obviously cant do anything, and even worse when they dont own up.
Im pretty sure it was one of the backs, southwell or paterson. they should get to the bottom of this and really the player should own up.
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Two things about this article. Firstly Ireland deserved to win the game on sat becaus ethey played all the rugby. Only their own ill-discipline and great scottish defence make the score line as close as it was. Scotland, in an attacking sense, are rubbish. They have one good attacking player-Lamont.
Secondly, EOS should be censured by the IRFU for those comments regarding the "O'Gara incident". You cant go around accusing the opposition of such gross foul play unless you can back it up.
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Call me old fashioned, but anyone who handles on the ground deserves all they get, similarly someone on the wrong side of a ruck deliberatly not rolling away should get a shoeing.
The critical thing is that this is not a stamp, ie not downward pressure but backwards, to clear the man away from the ball.
A french flanker won a penalty for being shoed, whilst deliberatly slowing play on Sunday, and did it three more times during the game killing English ball.
Any punching and a yellow or red follows, you'll neve stop it but you must punish it.
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the scottish player should just own up, its as simple as that! its a disgrace to choke someone in the bottom of a ruck, when they obviously cant do anything, and even worse when they dont own up.
Im pretty sure it was one of the backs, southwell or paterson. they should get to the bottom of this and really the player should own up.
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Violence, meaning intent to hurt, should never, never be allowed. No sin bin for this, immediate red card, and the referee is right.
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O'Gara did suffer a cracking good tackle that may have winded him slightly at the time - but if you look at the TV shots - he was not unconscious when the ruck was being played - but was kicking his legs furiously.....whatever the reason.
Accident or deliberate... I doubt we (Joe Public) will ever know... but somebody, somewhere knows they have had a lucky escape either way.
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I think that there is an acceptable level of violence on a field. If there wasn't, rugby would be a non-contact sport. It is also frankly nonsense to suggest that only violence conducted within the rules is permissible, since every team will take their own judicial actions during a game that will often fall out with the rule book. It is a professional game now. The threshold would be when a player acts to deliberately cause long term injury to an opponent. But things such as the odd shoeing at a ruck are very effective methods of 'sorting' out a problem which referees often ignore.
On another matter John, i remember after the slanderous allegations made by Aled Brew and the Dragons, that you decided, using this blog, to jump on the passing bandwagon and have a cowardly pop at the behaviour of Ulster fans. Well sir, you have been very quiet on the behaviour of a considerable portion of the Scottish fans who chose to boo any rendition of 'the fields' and any goalkicking attempt by Ronan O'Gara. I appreciate Scotland have had to resort to busing kids in to boost their attendances, and the dip in crowd behaviour is probably a result of this, but I notice you have chosen not to have a pop at your own fans? Tut tut.
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Rugby has itself in a difficult situation at the moment. In the "good" old days players involving themselves in the "dark arts" as some contributors refer to them as would have received some on field retribution which though never explicitly condoned was often seen as an accepted part of the game. Not so nowadays especially in the professinal arena, unfortunately referees are increasingly struggling to keep up with the pace of the modern game. I am convinced that this has left a void which is encouraging all forms of "cheating", the use of deliberate covert violence is just a part of this wider picture.
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Sam Rice,
U19 laws are differant to open age. Anything at armpit or above is high at your age level. The problem is that you have refs who do not know the laws, or ref as if it were open age. Therefore you can't be scragged either.
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Surely Eddie O'Sullivan should be reprimanded for outright accusing the Scottish rugby team of trying to kill one of their players? Its a scandal if he gets away with these accusations which are based on tv replays which are murky at best.
It was an unfortunate incident, and one which in no way could have been pre-planned. Rugby players are honourable, and while fists fly in the heat of the moment, most can sit down at the end of the game and have a pint. The notion that a Scotsman has deliberately tried to seriously maim O'Gara is ridiculous and wrong.
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I think the most important thing to take out of all these comments is consistency. Referees are not consistent; this is in ALL levels of rugby. Playing at the weekend, one week a referee will penalise a team for an offence and give them several warnings before turning to the cards. Other weeks it will be for a first offence (for example this weekend a prop for our team was yellow carded for rucking the player out of the way). I think that the referee's association needs to implement consistency then we will all (players or not) be able to distinguish what is an acceptable level of 'violence' on a rugby field.
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In regard to the Ronan O'Gara incident on Saturday, I don't think that your question applies. Your question of what is the acceptable level of violence acceptable would be, in my opinion, more suited to the Brian O'Driscoll incident on the lions tour. In that scenario, that was a tackle that happened week in week out and Brian was in the unfortunate position to land awkwardly. Had no serious injury resulted from Umaga's tackle, no issue would have arisen from it and resulted in the outlawing of spear tackling.
However, in the case og O'Gara's alleged "choking", the players neck was interfiered with. Once that happens, you are no longer just talking about a players career, but you are talking about potenially losing the ability to walk un-aided aswell as the potential for the loss of life.
So, in answer to your question, any tackle above the shoulders is a high tackle. In regard to stamping or clearing out of a ruck or mall, if you shouldn't be where you are, as long as it isn't excessive, anything goes, once it doesnt interfere with the players neck or back. Any responsible rugby player understands that.
And finally, on a seperate note, about the "not quite as good as the hype" Irish team, who beat a poor Scottish team that, at home, had 1 try scoring oppertunity in 80 minutes. In anyones book, not even Scotland's workman-like performance, deserved to beat an off form Irish team.
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Now that we have been cleared from any wrong doing, is anyone expecting an apology from Eddie O'Sullivan for basically accusing one of our players of trying to ROG?! Not me, he won't do it. How can he stand there accusing people of this sort of thing when he didn't even see it and there is no evidence to support his claim whatsoever? Has it not occurred to him that someone's arm might have been pressed on ROG's neck during a ruck purely by accident? I have been a proud Scottish supporter for many many years and I doubt very much that one of our players would deliberately do such a thing. The Irish coach has made a big mistake here. Perhaps the SRU should consider suing O'Sullivan for defamation, pay off a few of the debts!
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i as a fan of rugby can not believe what has happened at the end of that match the fact that o'Gara was kicking out so hard. you cant see but you know what was going on and if you see the footage again you can see two very worried scottish players more interested in what happened to o'Gara then losing the match. come on come into the real world
And to answer your question that kind of violence is not acceptable buy any one never mind on the pitch!!!
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Timmy (post 25), the point is, there is absoultely no evidence to point the finger of blame at anyone. Therefore, you are in no position to make wild accusations of certain players. At best, comments like yours are ill-informed. At worst, libelous.
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To Timmy at 25 Iam sure it must have been Hugo Southwell that did it,considering he was replaced in the 39th minute,where you watching the same game as O'Sullivan.
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I think the Scottish players have a right to be upset with O'Sullivan's comments. Having looked at the incident several times, I cannot see how it is at all possible for either of the two Scottish players involved to have got his arm into position to choke O'Gara. If such an allegation was made by an Irish player, the clever thing to do for O'Sullivan to do was to review the tape first before making any comments.
I think Eddie owes the Scottish team an apology!
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As a former Junior rugby coach; who tried to instil the idea of firm but fair into young players, I must suggest that NO level of violence is acceptable.
Violence to me denotes a premeditated attempt to cause harm to somebody and that surety cannot be condoned in any circumstance.
I accept that the game is hard and physical; and long may it remain so, but there must be limits. Whilst rules can help, our game has always relied on a certain amount of honour and respect amongst players; yes I know things do go on in e.g. scrums and mauls, but that does not detract from the fundamental ethos of the game.
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All of us who have played rugby for a period of time know that each club has it's "nutters". Too often they are indulged as being the 'hard man' or 'enforcer'. One player twisted my head 180 degrees and could have broken my neck. Another hooker chose a scrum to try and feast on my throat. Neither incident stopped me playing the game I love, but it did give me an insight into the qualities of some of the people playing, not all of whom are paragons of morality.
I doubt that on Saturday anything untoward was happening - rugby players are often reacting to imagined slights more than reality - but rugby as a game needs to accept these people exist. Until clubs stop indulging this behaviour we are counting down until someone is maimed or injured.
Incidentally John, you were known as a hard character yourself ... how has your view changed?
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I don鈥檛 agree with anyone who say this is all fuss about nothing! When a player is lying on the turf, is blue, and needs to put in the recovery position, I would say it is quite a serious matter. I have watched this incident over and over, you can see as the ruck forms John Hayes kneels and bridges his body over O'Gara's protecting him from the force of the ruck. Hines who puts in the big tackle on O'Gara is lying next to him, in a position when his arms are in that suspect area.
Now I鈥檓 not saying that O'Gara was deliberately choked, or in deed that he was choked at all, that鈥檚 not my place. But I do think that when you look at all the facts, 1) O'Gara's air supply was clearly blocked by something. 2) A Scottish player (who O'Gara had a tussle with early on, and was getting cheeky trips and niggles in all game) was lying next to O'Gara in the ruck. 3) Eddie O'Sullivan the 鈥渃ool headed coach鈥 is the last person to make statements like that without solid foundation. 4) And the fact that the Ireland players claim to know whom the player is.
I think it鈥檚 very easy to say the evidence wasn't substantial enough. As I believe that it isn't the video evidence that needs studying. Obviously, news of an incident like this on a rugby pitch will place a bad name on the game worldwide, and for this reason and this reason alone, I think a certain someone has been very lucky!
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re #25
Timmy, you are on dangerous ground. You are assuming - because no-one seems to know for sure - that a Scottish player committed a deliberate act of attempted murder. And you name two suspects. Do you have the evidence to prove your possibly libellous accusations? If not, perhaps you should consult your lawyer!
Anyway, it couldn't have been Southwell - he had been replaced by that time.
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timmy - how on earth could southwell have choked o'gara? he was taken off after 40 minutes.....
....unless he has some sort of ninja-magic mind power?
from watching it, it does seem much more likely to me that o'gara got hit hard and swallowed his tongue than that he was choked. he doesn't move after hitting the deck.
all credit to hayes for his swift action though.
on the 'acceptable violence' issue. if you're on the worng side of the ball or got your mitts all over it then (IMO), raking is ok but stamping isn't (and stamping's doubly bad if on joints).
but it's high tackles that make me wince the most.
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Bit off the topic but I know your son's cousin, Charlie Taylor, he might be the next one in your family to be capped for Scotland ;) he's pretty good!
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If it is true (& I can think of know other logical explanation as to how a mans neck can be crushed) that O'Gara was assaulted on Saturday, then the individual responsible should be charged in a criminal court, and certainly banned for life. However, the fact that this cowardly act took place away from the "all" seeing eye of the tv cameras, they have escaped punishment. It astounds me that any honest, decent person could sleep after such an incident. Plus, the forearm smash on Strettle v Ireland the other week - surely the whole "swinging arm/fist" rule needs to come into play here too. Whilst acknowledging that it is a mans game, & having played I know this, there comes a time when over-physical styles are going to get someone seriously hurt. O'Gara could have never breathed again, let alone played again.
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I was at Murrayfield and didn't hear about this incident until afterwards. I had recorded the match though, and watched the slow motion replays of the incident (from two angles) several times. It is clear from those replays that no Scottish player (including Hines)was in a position where they could have got their arm round O'Gara's throat. That is why the citing commissioner found no evidence of foul play. I assume that O'Gara lost conciousness by accident as a result of several players (some of them Irish) lying on top of him.
It is telling that none of the Irish players or the coach who have commented on the incident actually saw anything themselves. O'Sullivan should apologise immediately.
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i believe that there is no place for violence in the game, but on the other hand i think people on the wrong side of the ruck should not be tip-toed around to avoid. i think off the ball digs are completely unacceptable and punching, biting etc is out of order. but it is a physical game and i believe there should still be violence, but in a controlled way. as a player there is no better feeling than walking over the top of the opposition 7 so he knows he has to stop diving over, but not stamping on him trying to cause injury. fighting is unacceptable. what happend to O'Gara is unacceptable. they cannot get rid of violence from the game as without violence and aggression and passion it will not be the same game that we love. the violence just needs to be controlled and kept under control.
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I think that the 'rucking out' of opponents is fine. aslong as it is rucking out and not stamping. I've been playing quite a while and think there is nothing better than someone better lifted up and put on their arse. the physicality of rugby has always been high and thsts what makes it what it is. The only thing I can't stand is the sneaky things. If two players have a disagreement and fight, that is just due to the heat of the moment. The punching of an opposition player when he is not loooking though is completely weak. Cowardly behaviour should be left to the kissballers(footballers) and we need to keep Rugby Union a gentlemans game.
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Mmmmm. International rugby is a physical high impact game in which any collision could lead to the loss of consciousness of a player involved. Being at the bottom of a ruck can occasionally be very uncomfortable too, but you'd want to be very unlucky to accidentally end up either unconscious or suffocated as a result, no matter how many players are on top of you - most rucks move on/finish up pretty quickly.
Eddie O'Sullivan was very trenchant in his comments and I would hope that he wouldn't have made them in the immediate aftermath of the game and repeated them over the next 36 hours unless he was very sure of his ground. I think he was naive to think that any player, Scottish or otherwise would put his neck above the parapet to give his side of events let alone admit to intentionally injuring Ronan O'Gara.
Notwithstanding this, if the Irish group are convinced that a serious assault has been made against Ronan, there are other avenues open to them to and he might have been wiser not to speak so publically if he didn't intend to pursue them.
In my view the Scots have certainly not been cleared of an offence, rather that RTE and the 成人快手 couldn't find any TV footage of any offence to show the citing official.
Those who have complained about Bergamasco's punch are correct to do so. That he punched in clear view of the camera, has been cited as a result and will probably miss the Ireland game does not make his a greater offence - he was just spotted committing it.
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John, I don't see how you can say that Scotland should have beaten Ireland. Scotland were not good and only very poor refereeing kept them in the game. Their backs were offside all day and were never penalised. Just look at the video. Their forwards were constantly on the wrong sides of rucks preventing Ireland from moving the ball, plus lazy runners running back from offside were rarely punished. They succeeded in stopping Ireland from playing like they can. Well done, for that! But did they deserve to win? I don't believe so.
Regarding the O'Gara's situation at the finish, somebody asked what is all the fuss about. The fuss is about a player being deliberately, sneakily and cowardly choked at the bottom of a ruck, out of sight of the cameras, officials and spectators. It has been reported that some Irish players have confirmed this and seemingly know who the culprit is. But nothing can be proven because it was so sneakily done.
Why was Ronan O Gara kicking his legs. Ah sure, it was just a carefree demonstation of contentment and joy. For the love of Guinness, he was trying to bring attention to the fact that he was being dangerously choked while he couldn't defend himself or extricate himself with many other bodies on him.
The headline reads: 'Scots cleared of O'Gara Foul Play'. Ah well everything is ok then! Mr Fowler couldn't see it happening in the middle of a ruck, so it never happened! No worries so!!
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Violence is unacceptable in the game of rugby. However there is a massive difference between being violent and being aggressive within the rules of the game. A huge hit where u drive somebody back can give your team a big lift and as long as it is not a spear ( lifting legs above the head) is perfectly legal and in my opinion a big part of the modern game. There should be no tolerance of violent conduct with intent to harm but isnt the physicality of the modern game what makes rugby so great?
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In reply to Timmy, Southwell wasn't on the pitch, if you watched the match you'll know he went off injured at half-time, and that Paterson wasn't part of the ruck in which this occured. Personally I think it was completely accidental, and that nobody should be portioning out the blame, naming names or pointing fingers. These sorts of things happen (admittidedly not always such serious incidents) in a physical game.
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The citing commision have found that there is no case to answer as replays do not show any incident clearly. That will be the end of it for now. However, several Irish players know who was supposed to be responsible, Scotland play Ireland again in the summer, perhaps the law of the jungle will apply and there will be some payback coming to the player responsible then!
Most rugby players are very loyal to the defence of their teammates, stuff like that doesn't get forgotten!
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Malcolm, "The notion that a scotsman has deliberately tried to seriously main O'Gara is ridiculous and wrong!"
why is it ridiculous? because he's scottish...becasue a scot would never to that? how do you know? do you know them personally? There are, unfortunatly, on every side in the 6 nations players capable of throwing punches and doing illegal things at ruck time. Patterson and a few others were doing things like this all match, hence why BOD had a go at him. And also a few irish players were at it aswell.
There is a "notion" becasue a player was left unconscious on the field after a ruck, Whether is was an accident or not, well we'll have to wait and see. But nevertheless a few Irish players have been quoted as "seeing it happen!", EOS made his comments based on what his players told him. Would a player make that up?
O'Gara was conscious after the tackle, you can see that. Then during the ruck you can see his legs kicking wildly(like someone might do if there being choked). No yes it is possible it is an accident(and i hope it is) but if players say they saw something deliberate....!
I don't appreciate a scotland fan coming out and denying the incident just becasue "a scotsman would never maim a player". I do believe most rugby players are honourable...but a player doesn't turn blue in the face for nothing.
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I think there are 3 issues here; Firstly, that of Eddie O'Sullivan. His accusation that someone has tried to deliberatly choke an opposition player is scandalous beyond belief and does not sit well in the tough but fair game of rugby. We're getting to football type "histrionics" (Wenger; Murinho etc) in this situation. First point, someone at the IRB / IRFU should have a quiet word with the increasingly vocal O'Sullivan and remind him that this is not football. Second point, the alleged incident itself. Todays game, particularly internationals, have so many camera's pointed at it that the players themselves know that they are almost certainly going to be caught if they get up to some form of sculduggery; not including the intervention of the touch judges. Those actions which are generally caught are momentary lapses of concentration - a punch; a stamp, perhaps even a trip. But that is exactly what they are - momentary lapses occuring in perhaps less than a second or two at most. To consider that a player has in actual fact maintained a hold on a player such that the player's air passage is restricted to the point where the player turns blue is suggesting perhaps 10 - 15 - 20 - seconds of significant pressure. This would suggest a player who is likely to have a considerable record of violent behaviour and, therefore, recognised as a thug. At the last analysis, I do not recall anybody in the Scottish team coming anywhere near that category.
Thirdly, and finally, O'Sullivan has now done a fantastic job of deflecting media and Irish rugby focus away from the fact that, once again, the Irish have (again) blown a great opportunity to win their first 6 nations championship. Chokers? Indeed.
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Yes the game was quite clean, but the incident involving ROG quite clearly needs to be clarified. If the pictures on the front of yesterday's papers are any indication of what happened, then the incident was quite serious.
Everyone also seems to have missed the punch on Donncha O Callaghan from 17 Allan Jacobsen (I think); see -
I can't believe the ref did nothing, it was right in front of him. Fair play to Donncha for not reacting..
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I have to say I think Eddie O'Sullivan was spot on, this was a disgusting attack on ROG & the only unfortunate element to this is that nobody can be cited because of lack of evidence. It's so clear he's being interfered with, you see his legs kicking out and then going dead and in the aftermath he's blue in the face (only for the quick thinking of Hayes, this could've been far more serious) - accidental, I don't think so. Eddie apologise - I don't think so either!
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I can't for one second believe that with all the cameras the 成人快手 have around the pitch nothing could be seen in any review. Nevertheless, the Scottish player responsible (and that would probably be the last one up from the ruck - naming no names!) will know who they are. The Irish players would never make an accusation like that against a fellow professional without some grounds. Maybe Munster will draw Perpignan in next year's Heineken cup and all will be sorted out!!
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i must as a 16 year old player the new interpretation of the rucking rule does get on my nerves
i have always been brought up on the principle that if someone is deleiberately slowing down the ball they must know the risks of being there and would expect to get a shoeing.
no matter what people say it is obvious when someone does not mean to be there and players know this too. hence, a player is only rucked when he is cheating.
the fact is now that no one can touch a player, so we see deliberate cheating even more often and it is spoiling the game. In the ireland v england game as well as england v france and wales v italy we saw example of players just falling straight over the top and stopping the ball as the referee refuses to penalise it. the irish do this brilliantly and fair play to them for getting away with it but it is painful to watch. the game just cannot flow freely
the area on the floor should either be made a free for all, which i am thoroughly against, or it should go back to the way it was. physicallity is a fundamental part of the game. i know for one i fully expect a shoeing when i lay on the wrong side. but that it the price winning comes at
sam 16
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I can't quite get my head round how everyone has jumped to the conclusion that ROG was assaulted. This is on the say so of the Irish coach who was in the stands assisted by inconclusive video replays. His assertion that several irish players witnessed the alleged choking is also puzzling if that was the case what where they doing? If I was playing and saw one of my teammates being choked I wouldn't just stand around with no apparent reaction. All credit to John Hayes for assisting ROG but I still think the whole episode has been blown out of proportion as there is no clear evidence to support any of the claims made. If the irish players did witness it why have they not come forward and why are the police not involved? Furthermore do you not think ROG himself would realise he had been deliberately choked and would be raging about it? Instead he was quoted as asking what all the fuss was about, I know from previous experience (not choking) that when your at the bottom of a ruck you can still tell the difference between a deliberate action and something accidental either way you still know that it had occurred. I feel that this is a statement made by EOS to deflect attention away from a poor irish performance against at best a workmanlike scottish team and personally the whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
As to level of violence in rugby? You play with 100% commitment and that means you pt your body in positions that it shouldn't be, the New Zealanders are brilliant at it. If you do that you expect to receive a shoeing for your pains, anywhere except on the head. Punches and the like are not really acceptable but I can understand why they happen at times. You can spot a dirty player and he generally will get more than he dishes out through hard hits and the like in a match. General rule is that if you dish it out you've just got to be prepared to be on the receiving end
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if the whole choking incident was accidental and the scots totally refute the allegations then why doenst the player involved just say what happened to clear it all up. silence speaks volumes and while it may have been an accident the fact that the scottish camp is keeping quiet is kind of dodgy. with no footage of the incident then they're in the clear.
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Though the siting commity have not seen anything I can't believe they have missed what I think happened. which was a scottish forward elbowing O'Gara in the throat as he ran passed. If you watch the incident, as O'Gara runs into the pack a scottish forward who has his back to him brings his right elbow back at head/throat hight hitting him in the throat as he runs past O'Gara's momentum takes him forward into the tackle. This is where the Irish think he was hit but they should look at it again. This move is cynical and the player should be disciplined or banned.Players need to realise that their indiscaplin could end someone career or kill someone.
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There is no place for violence on the pitch. Rugby is a physical, high impact sport, but the key word is sport and competition. Violence cheapens the endeavour and pursuit of victory through skill, tactics, physical and mental strength (and yes the occasional luck of the bounce). Permitting violence would be degredative to the sport.
As for the O Gara incident, it's true no one could see what happened, and players can have other players collapse on them in a ruck, but lets get real for a minute, for someone to be deprived of air and go unconscious in this manner, your airway must be constricted, by force around it. While we may never know what happened I doubt O Sullivan would have made such a serious remark without holding belief in it. Knowing video evidence would be inconclusive, they have righltly not named the player who they suspect, as this player would have this against him, without being able to prove otherwise.
Incidentally, I am an admirer of Patterson, but surely his cheapshot into the back of ROG in the first half when the whistle had already been blown for an infringement was way out of order.
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It was unacceptable and Scotland have clearly not been cleared just no culprit found. Like when 6 police officers are around and a prisoner dies and no one says anything - showing real contempt for the law.
In some ways I actually find violence at top level rugby more acceptable than in the lower levels. I used to wonder quite if a 3rds game was worth dealing with violent people - I recall being head butted by the loose head twice in the scrum when we went down until he found out I was a lot stronger than I had been showing and bent and twisted him till he all but cried, oh and picked him out to run over in the loose - I was wrong as well, of course. However the point is violence begets violence.
It annoys me in Soccer that pundits constantly defend pointless agression in areas of the field where winning a challenge is almost pointless. In rugby it should be stamped out. Yet whinge, constantly about acts that would not hurt anyone. At least rugby has a grown up attitude to cheating whereby it is only cheating if you get caught.
We cannot know if Sullivan is over the top just as we cannot know if the Hunt went at Cech to buzz him up or land one on him. It is on the conscience of the Scots.
If what is claimed happened then the Scots if they have an ounce of love of the game (or their country)they should give the guy up, they'll know.
Lets face it sports people are not the guardians of any game - quite the opposite. Indeed when Henson pointed out quite how O'Driscoll behaves in rucks and mauls he was the bad guy for some reason. No one has denied to this day that Mr O'D did not, least of all the man himself - puts into context the whining that carried on long after the plane landed from the Lions tour to NZ.
More generally the 6 nations is too petty and people's aims in it too limited to act as an effective springboard to the world cup. England won last time in spite of it and really prepared on their pre-world cup tour with away wins down under. Even then they largely reeked through the early rounds.
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To Mr Beattie and all those others who say that Eddie O'S shouldn't have said what he did and should apologise. You know what- maybe Eddie is sure as he has the word of one of his players!
I remember being choked at school to the extent that I fell and became unconscious. I know who did it but they denied it in front of the headmaster. They never owned up to it but to this day I know who did it.
Who knows the facts of what happened at the bottom of the ruck. It may have been an accident- it may have been deliberate.
Ronan O'G must be pretty certain - and if it did happen there must be someone else who knows as well.
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I think the new stamping laws are fair and should only be done on the torso (coming from a guy with a black eye after being stamped in the face AFTER the ball had been lost by the opposing team!) I think it was utter BS what O'Sullivan said! there was a massive pile on and O'Gara was on the bottom! cant do anything about that! But how Bergamasco's punch on Stephen Jones wasnt seen by the touch judge is appalling! no way is that right! Aggression is needed but it needs to be controlled and safe aggression!
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The level of acceptable violence depends on the rules of the game. It is clearly ok to punch somebody unconscious in boxing (occasionally killing some boxers to which there is no recriminations). I think you instinctively know what is acceptable violence when you see it. A hard hit below the shoulder area is lauded, a high tackle can cause serious injury of a fatal nature as can gouging, choking, kicking in the head, goolies(?) or wherever. It seems to me from the video footage, that o'gara got caught on his side (an unfortunate position) at the bottom of probably 70 to 80 stones of
of forward players and had the air crushed out of him for a dangerous amount of time. Dangerous yes, intentional, no.
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Yup
I agree, the two things are separate. If a Scotsman did try to throttle an Irish player then I am ashamed. But the word coming out of the Scottish camp is that this did not happen.
The Scottish players near the incident deny the allegation.
If Irish players are saying that they saw it then someone is lying or mistaken. If it did happen then a Scotsman is lying. if it didn't happen then Irish players are mistaken.
I actually hope we find out as this will leave a stink between two Celtic cousins.
As far as the game is concerned, only a penalty against Taylor for lazy running, when there is no such offence, gave Ireland the win although I agree that Ireland broke Scotland's defence much more often than the other way around.
But acceptable violence and back to the topic. Should you be allowed to stand on someone?
JB
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In response to Timmy and Post#39 Liam, you two are completely and utterly stupid.
For one as has been mentioned, Southwell was off the field at the time and Paterson wasnt involved in the ruck, so to blame them is idiotic.
Secondly only Eddie O Sullivan complained about the incident, and he was miles away on the touchline, Brian O Driscoll said nothing and none of the Irish players reacted in any way, so what does that tell you. If O Gara had been choked, his teamates would have gone mad and remonstrated with the Scottish players.
Thirdly to Liam about Scotland striking out in frustration cos they cant play rugby and were destroyed by Ireland, do you even know what your talking about? Scotland outplayed Ireland for most of the game, played the better rugby, and as Keith Wood stated all Irelands points were given to them by Scotland. Ireland didnt deserve to win and were flattered by the win.
You sir are a disgrace to rugby fans all over the world with your ignorance.
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Rucks are poorly managed by referees. There should be little danger to the tackled player and the tackler on the floor because the law states that no player should have his shoulders lower than his hips or cause another player to have their shoulders lower than their hips. If that law is applied at the outset of a ruck (and players entering the ruck have to bind to a team mate)then there should not be a situation where players are "bundling" on top of players already on the floor. That is a penalty in itself and as soon as it happens the referee should penalise accordingly.
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Stamping in ruck to remove someone who may or may not be cynically fouling is, I feel, acceptable. Rugby is rough and that is one of its joys. But I would be sad to know if any rugby player deliberately choked one of his opponents. I hope for the sake of the game that the alleged choking in the Ireland v Scotland match was not as serious as is being made out.
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The only choking going on was that of the Irish team and their inability to turn the hype into reality.
As for violence, it's a game in which there will always be the odd bit of Queensberry rules, fortunately it all takes place on the pitch and is quickly forgotten about.
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Rucks are poorly managed by referees. There should be little danger to the tackled player and the tackler on the floor because the law states that no player should have his shoulders lower than his hips or cause another player to have their shoulders lower than their hips. If that law is applied at the outset of a ruck (and players entering the ruck have to bind to a team mate)then there should not be a situation where players are "bundling" on top of players already on the floor. That is a penalty in itself and as soon as it happens the referee should penalise accordingly.
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In all levels of rugby, there's a certain level of self-regulation around the breakdown, whereby those who infringe are dealt with by the opposing pack. No self respecting pack, from club level upwards, would let an opponent get away with choking one of their players. None of the Irish forwards went for the Scots after the incident with O'Gara, therefore none of them saw anything. QED.
Rugby's a physical game, and confrontation at the breakdown is a key part of forward play. Rucking and hard tackling (below the neck line) is completely acceptable, and may it always remain so. Stamping, punching and any other attempt to injure an opposing player is comppletely unacceptable and should be punished in the harshest possible way.
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well and good to say the rog incident was an accident. if the scottish are so sure then why hasn't the player involved spoken up? silence speaks volumes. it's a shame as the whole thing could be put to bed. so the whole thing just looks more suspicious as no one has spoken about it from the scottish side. violence is never acceptable as rugby is quite a dangerous sport anyway and injuries can be caused by legal challenges let alone adding violence to the conundrum.
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If Martin Johnson's standard of on-field behaviour is (was) somehow acceptable, and indeed, worthy of being rewarded with the captaincy of both England and the Lions, then I'd suggest that pretty much anything goes. Sure, he was suspended for some things he did, but he got away with far worse.
Then again, he had some pretty good examples to follow - Wade Dooley, Paul Ackford, Dean Richards. These miscreants all helped to put the "thugby" in "rugby".
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you say the scottish camp have denied it....what a surprise. could hadden really come on the telly and say "by the way, the move on o'gara was a training ground move we practice every day". if this event took place in a pub between two gangs,and the police investigated it, im sure they would not take the word of the leader of one of the gangs. i trust o'gara and i think it's about time we stopped ignoring criminal acts on the pitch. rugby is rugby, violence is criminal. Mr Beattie, if Hines did do it, dont be ashamed, you didnt do it. it is he who should be answering the questions.....also, we were still the better team
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Just saw Against The Head there on RT脡2 a while ago and when they showed play leading up to the "O'Gara incident" it looked to me that ROG was hit on the head by the elbow of the Scottish number 17 as he was running through. That possibly may have something to do with what happened after. Fair play to the Bull for his quick thinking! Violence anywhere is unacceptable
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I would like to add I have seen a lot of accusational headlines, not one headline that says, "'We are innocent' say Scots players".... Why would that be now?
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Rugby is a very competitive game and this may, in some instance, come out in violence. This has been happening in rugby for years and makes the game what it is. The acts of violence are not malicious, they are done in a competitive mindset. I have expeirienced this first-hand on the pitch. When a person is psyched up for a game it is hard to control reactions. There is a fine line between Motivation and aggression and this line can easily be crossed. For me this is what makes rugby. It would not be the same if all violence was outlawed. Why change a game that is already great? I don't believe the acts of violence should go un-punished but they should not be publicised to this massive extent. Punching and stamping may not be acceptable but it will happen in every game of rugby that is played. I don't want to see the game i love ruined.
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It's fair to say that IF a Scottish player tried to choke O'Gara, then yes, it is a serious issue. But from the replays, you can't tell. What if the arm choking O'Gara was trapped in place? Who should be blamed there? The IRB for allowing rucks to occur? The referee for not spotting it?
As far as an 'acceptable level' of violence, I feel that any activity that is not centred on securing ball for your team is unacceptable - you can tackle someone as hard as you like, if you hit them in the chest or below. I remember a certain Jonny Wilkinson being praised for a massive hit on the Italian number 7 a few years - and the same should apply to mauls. It's the same concept - just more people! It's not violence, it's physicality - and in a game where fitness and strength play a huge role, this kind of activity is fair enough. Players spend hours in the gym, building themselves up, so why shouldn't their physiques provide them with a competitive advantage?
Finally, Eddie O'Sullivan is out of order for suggesting a Scottish player tried to seriously injure, if not kill, Ronan O'Gara. He can't back it up - you can't prove intent from a TV replay, especially one when you can't see what's happening.
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I apologise if my point has been made up thru the conversation already...there are a lot of posts and i didnt have time to read them all!!
Firstly the game itself was not a malicious one...not a particularly entertaining one either...but the incident was really outside the game itself. I don't really see what the Irish would have had to gain from making this up. Judging by the Irish players reactions at the time it was more serious than we even realise. However, over aggression like this isnt new to the game...anyone remember Umaga and Co. on O'Driscoll for the Lions.
To deal directly with the question... I feel that of course the rules of the game should never be forgotten...otherwise we lose the fundamentals of the game itself. However I think players can be excused for the occasional punch up and the such like, particularly at International level. As an ordinary guy I cannot begin to imagine the level of expectancy on the players shoulders...they want to win so much for the thousands in the stadium and millions more watching at home. So although it should never be condoned...surely its part and parcel of the International Scene.
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Please no more replies to Timmy - he is clearly using a rather large spoon (maybe wooden?) to wind you all up.
In my opinion rucking out with the boot is acceptable (although not in the head area) if the ball is deliberately being killed or slowed down and the situation is not being handled effectively by the ref.
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No 61, crucially you can't see what was happening between Jacobsen and O Callaghan in the few seconds before your clip starts. I don't have a video and didn't see this from my seat in the West Stand. Having watched Chunk on many occasions domestically and internationally, I can say he is not a dirty player but also doesn't let anyone away with hitting him, shirt pulling etc.
I have looked at this clip many times, and there's really only one player who could have been responsible for ROG (if anyone was), though the distances and angles look wrong. I do wonder if ROG's shoulder pads might have been something to do with it though as I played when these were strictly for Joan Collins I don't know if they have safety features to prevent this (eg velcro).
Those who accuse Chris Paterson of dirty play should get a grip of themselves. He is the lightest player around and has more sense. However there are several players in every 6N squad that you know might be sin bin candidates. On one hand they can provide leadership and boost morale. On the other, they have a degree of thuggery we should not tolerate. I'm sure none of them will ever do it again, but Messrs Hines and Grewcock and lots of other current players do have form, as did Finlay Calder, Wade Dooley, and many others who could sue me.
On the subject of raking, I do think there's an issue. If the player is killing the ball, leave it to the ref to sort out. If however, you are playing the ball with your foot and a player happens to be in the way, that's too bad. Having broken a few ribs from being raked, and hence missed games, I think I know what I'm on about.
Where there are things to sort out unofficially is where the ref will never see them. I played loose head from age 10 to 14, and in one game my opposing tight head brought his hand over my eyes every scrum. The solitary time he got it too close to my mouth, I bit it. Just a nibble really. Stopped instantly. Next scrum he went in hard but fair (and exposed my lack of technique) - better all round.
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You know I wrote this comment and It wasn't published so I have tried to tone it down...but frankly I find the whole conversation bizzare. Acceptable violence? What is all the fuss about? A man almost died, fighting for his...no wait, sorry A man almost died playing a game. A Game for god sake. It's not war, it's not a MANS game. Those of you that hide behind that crap are not man enough to look deeper. I find it sad that we have to hide our animal instincts and we disguise of the violent and ignorant as being manly and even gentlemanly and hounourable. There is no nothing about honour here. Remember O Gara getting singled out on the lions tour some years ago as his face was punched in? What is acceptable? A man dying? No. A man being crippled in a tackle? No. A man doing the most with his athletic ability and INTELLIGENCE to win a game? Yes of course. If you are not intelligent enough to understand that it is entertainment then you should join the army and go fight in Iraq or Afganistan where your blood lust can be satisfied. MY children and I don't need to see grown men acting like babies in a playground when their frustration gets the better of them. Shame on you all.
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It's a worry when even the commentators seem to be urging the violence on.
Watching the replay of the French guying getting rucked on Sunday, 成人快手 viewers get treatedto the judgement "that's fine, besides he's French, so who cares" (apologies if i've mis-quoted, but that was the gist).
Admittedly half the English viewers were probably thinking the same thing, but is it really right for the voice of the 成人快手 to be encouraging it?
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im 19 and have played rugby for the past 8 years and am also a qualified ref and obtained an A at A Level sports science. i think that there is an acceptable amount of violence outside the rules. the only reason i say that is because from my own experience, both playing and reffing, people need something to get their emotion out. if it is a close match and/or a match that has a lot riding on it, people will be getting frustrated and a tension will be building. if they complete their goal (ie score a try) then this tension will be relieved. if not, then this tension will build up until it is released in a very aggressive act. (it is known by pyschologists as the aggressive cue theory)
therefore, for both the players and the referees sake, it is better for there to be a scuffle after a scrum to relieve this tension, than for a flanker to deliberately put in a huge, late tackle on the flyhalf. a lot of people will probably disagree with this but, in moderation, some violence outside the rules is necessary.
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My comment was that no one on a rugby field would try to kill another player. The fact I said Scotsman is because it is they who are accused. Agree with John - if it happened, then I am ashamed. If it didn't, someone is lying somewhere.
IMO, Eddie O'Sullivan has spoken in the heat of the moment when still concerned for his player. Understandable, but still a huge accusation to make. Maybe a quiet word in the Scotland dressing room would have been wiser.
Also, TV pics are inconclusive on the incident, but if Irish players "saw it happen" why didn't they react at the time? Someone strangling your team mate - what would you have done?
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Players who try to get others binned by play acting (used to be just soccer, now every weekend in rugby) ought to get their xxxxing lights punched out next ruck, referees are getting so sanctimonious that it encourages the cheats.
Also think that I'd far rather see a proper punch thrown than the slapping and pushing that we've inherited from soccer because everyone's so terrified of laying a real punch on. Most flare ups are the result of poor refereeing resulting in frustration.
Bergamasco will, I suspect, say that he thought Jones had gone very high into that tackle, and he might have a point.
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Post by 'Timmy' on the 12th
'Im pretty sure it was one of the backs, southwell or paterson. they should get to the bottom of this and really the player should own up'
Firstly, well done to Timmy for being the only one of 6 billion people on the planet who knows what actually happened. Although, I grew up with mossy paterson, and if it was him that did it, then the pope is not a catholic and santa is real after all. He is a true gentleman of the sport. A credit to the game. Ssecondly, as for accusing southwell, I would be a tad impressed if it was him seeing as he was off the pitch in the stand with a knackered shoulder for almost the whole second half. Get a grip Timmy.
It may have been deliberate and it may have been an accident. Fact is we wont know. There is no camera angle showing what happened. I was at the game on the side where ROG and there was no appearence of any Scottish player trying to strangle him. Another post commented that no Irish player tried to have a go with any of the Scottish ones, again suggesting it may have been an accident.
As for rucking. Backward motion not near the head - i think thats fine. I have done that. I have had it done to me and i accept it as I was breaking the rules of the game. A stamp however is totally different. A raking does not hurt at all. A stamp sure as hell does.
As for the dump tackles. They are the highlight of any game. There is nothing better than watching an attacker running at full pace and getting dumped on there backside. However, spearing someone down on to there head ie twisting them up and planting down head first cannot be accepted.
anyway, rant over!
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No. 87
I admit you can't see what happens before DOC gets hit, but does that excuse the fact that he was punched? Certainly not. Although you seem to back the fact that he was hit with no evidence whatsoever that DOC did anything. I also very much doubt that DOC did anything to provoke attack because he is not that type of player.
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Rugby players have always 'walked'into each other getting back to their own side. I remember Grant Batty assisting anyone to their feet. What is sad is that no one will admit to killing the game with slow play, deliberately standing in front of the ball at rucks and mauls (albeit to one side) or diving into the neck and heads of player working to get a ball on the ground. Or the sly standing on arms, legs and ankles by French scrum halves as the collect the ball to pass it out.
Every team has its thugs and we wouldn't miss them as we'd have one less thing to moan about!
Forget its a man's game, worry it could end a career if the size of players continue to grow!
And when does a charge down become a knock on.
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Was ROG choked?
The 成人快手 must have had at least two cameras on the other side of the pitch. So 'open' 成人快手, put that footage on the Rugby Union pages so we can all see it.
It may be inconclusive, but then we would _all_ know it was inconclusive.
(Or are you too cosy to the Rugby Unions to put it online?)
I think the points are well-made about the non-animated reactions of the Irish players near the ruck, but that is not proof either.
I'd like to hear John Hayes's view or that of the physio who ran on (as far as I can see unprompted) while Hayes was putting ROG in the recovery position. (The two Scottish players seen in the online highlights (from 12mins 30secs) retreating from that side of the ruck might have something useful to contribute if so inclined.)
I accept that "What goes on the field, stays on the field" is part of the creed of the game, but:
EITHER this was malicious and deserves to be punished
OR it was an accident and if the truth about the mishap comes out, players/refs/physios/paramedics/coaches will be better informed to avoid the worst consequences of another occurrence in the future.
Afe
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John Beattie - i specifically remember you swinging a big hook at Murrayfield, to the delight, at least to those under the clock. I would have to think hard to pin point the exact game but my guess would be in 1981 season. The following game you came on as a replacement and there was a massive cheer as you ran on and expectation of a similar performance. There was no doubt that since you weighed less than 16 stone you were perfectly entitled to throw such a punch.
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Was ROG choked?
The 成人快手 must have had at least two cameras on the other side of the pitch. So 'open' 成人快手, put that footage on the Rugby Union pages so we can all see it.
It may be inconclusive, but then we would _all_ know it was inconclusive.
(Or are you too cosy to the Rugby Unions to put it online?)
I think the points are well-made about the non-animated reactions of the Irish players near the ruck, but that is not proof either.
I'd like to hear John Hayes's view or that of the physio who ran on (as far as I can see unprompted) while Hayes was putting ROG in the recovery position. (The two Scottish players seen in the online highlights (from 12mins 30secs) retreating from that side of the ruck might have something useful to contribute if so inclined.)
I accept that "What goes on the field, stays on the field" is part of the creed of the game, but:
EITHER this was malicious and deserves to be punished
OR it was an accident and if the truth about the mishap comes out, players/refs/physios/paramedics/coaches will be better informed to avoid the worst consequences of another occurrence in the future.
Afe
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"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone".....I thought this was our Lord Jesus, not our Lord Eddie.....
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Collie21 (comment #90 last para), if you and your children act like that in the playground, perhaps you need to see a counsellor...shame on you.
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Its simple1 if the Rugby World gets to harsh on laws against phyiscal battles (aka violence) then rugby will become one step closer to the FARCE that is soccer because players will begin to fake injuries if they believe the opposition will be Red Carded and punished!! that phyisicality makes the game what it is!!
Obviously must be to a certain degree,if O gara was deliberitly choked then sum1 must be punished as the legend that is O, Gara could have died!!
p.s. MUNSTER ARE LEGENDS!!
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Bill Beaumont once told a good story when during a ruck in a game against France, he drilled in his very best shots to an opposing big hairy french forward's body.
The french forward turned to BB and said something along the lines of "when this ruck is over i will kill you". Apparently BB spent the rest of the game watching and waiting for the hit, and therefore slightly off the pace. So I suppose it can work against you.
Oh and why we are trying to be moralistic here, wasn't it a scottish forward who is credited with the premature ending of BB's playing days.
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As the song goes, 'We'll meet again..."
This is how this will be sorted. Questionable? yes. Just? Absolutely!
O'Gara's team mates will accept the findings of the citing commissioner but will exact a punishment they deem fair and equitable when the two sides meet again.
He who lives by the sword....
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BOD's cynically late tackle (v England) on Olly Morgan - while Morgan was in midair - was a disgrace, and spectacularly dangerous. This was worse given BOD's summer of bleating after Umaga's tackle on him. Worse still was BOD pestering the referee to sinbin Magnus Lund for an identical challenge on Girvan Dempsey not more than ten minutes later. Being BOD, he escaped any kind of censure and Lund received a ticking off (but no yellow).
ROG kicking out at Chris Cusiter after Cusiter had wiped him out was pathetic, as was BOD's now standard slapping of Euan Murray and Chris Paterson. The slapping is just embarrassing but kicking out at a player who is not watching is potentially serious and should be clamped down on.
Nathan Hines thumping tackle on O'Gara at 80 mins was entirely legal - one Irish newspaper laughably referred to the tackle as illegal - but fearsome. The huge upper body thump is a feature of pro rugby now and perfectly legal (see 90% of Jason White hits).
As for standing on somebody, if there had been more stamping on the well publicised Irish 'cheating' at breakdowns, then they'd be sitting on 2 or perhaps 3 losses so far. The Irish played Wales with slowing down the Welsh ball illegally being worn as a badge of honour. Rugby suffers from such gamesmanship but needn't do - very easy to justify rucking a cheat out of the way. Either that or start brandishing yellow cards to the culprits (ie the cheats slowing the ball down).
So yes, you should be able to stand on somebody.
On a side issue, anybody fancy addressing how Hines was sinbinned on Saturday but the Irish have so far not received one yellow card in the 6N? We're not seriously giving the paddies kudos for cheating now are we?! Anyone argue against this, read Stephen Jones's excellent match report on the Sunday Times website.
PS ROG was officially not choked. Eddie O'Sullivan and any other accuser, now have the courtesy to front up and apologise or name your culprit. Unprecedentedly shameful behaviour from the Irish.
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I would agree with the general sentiment that trying to injure an opponent through foul play is wrong. I played a lot of rugby and football when I was younger and looking back on it now most of the injuries I received with an oval ball in my hand were accidental whilst with a round ball at my feet about half were caused by malicious actions by an opponent. It is important that rugby retains its physical element and its edge but because of these elements it is important that any violence outside the rules is dealt with severely!
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103 - great stuff, Frank. As the citing commissioner, the 成人快手, the SRU and IRU all found no evidence of choking, the next game should be played in the genial spirits we expect 6N rugby to be played in.
What a ridiculous post! There are no Irish players who have come out to back Eddie O'Sullivan, so there are no witnesses. Any 'lives by the sword' comments are therefore unjustified.
The Scots will hopefully exact revenge on the footballers mentality creeping into the rather too smug Irish camp when next we meet, and do all of world rugby a service.
Hey, let's hope Italy do it first before the standard Irish humbling in the World Cup gives Eddie O'Sullivan is ultimate punishment.
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I am an English fan, and have no bias to either side. Some of the rubbish being spouted here is ridiculous though, there is no middle ground!
Someone may have choked RO'G, either by accident or on purpose. If on purpose then if the Ireland players 'know' who it is, they should name names. Why not? It is a disgrace, if it occurred. In response to the poster suggesting Scotland's silence is the same as admitting the crime - then the converse argument - is that if Ireland are sure, they should be able to name the player. I think O'Sullivan has handled it completely the wrong way and should have gone through the authorities/kept it private with Scotland until the matter is resolved, then name and shame.
Personally I think it is probably an accident, maybe a Scot lying on O'Gara and not moving quickly/being able to move, but causing damage nonetheless. I find it very hard to believe the perpetrator would choke (for a prolonged period!) an opposition player, with his team mates around able to see in numbers and with lots of different camera angles to replay.
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Lemme see...
There is no TV proof that any Scot did anything to ROG on the floor...
We have EOS bleating that someone tried to kill ROG...
Show us the proof EOS or APOLOGISE!
If there is proof, then the player concerned should be dealt with by both the SRU and Lothian & Borders Police.
However if no proof is forthcoming then EOS must apologise publicly to the Scottish team. However he does not strike me as the humble sort.
(On a playing note - if I had seen anyone 'choking' a team mate, then my intervention would have been instant and very physical)
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I think it is time for the international level of rugby to have two on field referee's, one each specializing for forwards and backs.
Small, tactical, but illegal infringements not caught occur regularly in set plays, and rucks and mauls, in the dominantly forward areas of the game. These infringements often appear to affect players by causing frustration and increased aggression between opponents resulting in violence at the extreme.
Current int. rugby referees are without doubt superb at there job, being honest, intellectual, and a great asset to the game. Having two on-field though, would make the game safer still.
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Several points.
Firstly, if O'Sullivan claims that it was "the talk of the dressing room", then why hasn't a single irish player come out to the media and agreed with him?? Not even Brian O'Driscoll backed up his own coach.
Secondly, Nathan Hines put in a huge tackle on O'Gara and knocked him to the ground. The TV replays show that Hine's head is roughly in line with O'Gara's shins; how could he possibly have his hands or arms around O'Gara's neck from this position? It's physically impossible. Nevermind the fact that 3 more irish players collapse on top of O'Gara in the following ruck.
Thirdly, if anything did happen, a player would have seen it and would have started a pretty large fight with the Scotland player.
Fourthly, the citing commissioner also saw nothing. Neither did the referee, the linesmen or any other player or spectator. That makes 67,534 people who saw nothing.
Eddie O'Sullivan should be absolutely ashamed of himself, for bringing the game into disrepute. It is clear from his media releases that by Sunday evening he was trying to backtrack and put the owness on the scotland player to come forward. Cowardly behaviour from a coach looking to paper over the cracks. I have lost all respect for him.
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What is acceptable violence?
It depends entirely on who the perpetrator is. Any act of violence committed by a New Zealander is perfectly ok, it seems. The disgraceful targetting of Brian O'Driscoll on the last Lions' Tour is typical of the carte blanche that New Zealand teams have always enjoyed.
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if the lad had died would it still be ok? do not like the 'win at all costs' mentality one bit.
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Well, well. There really are a number of bitter and twisted Scots out there. Ireland played very poorly on Saturday but guess what lads- we still beat you. Where does that leave you? This Scottish team has absolutely no attacking options and the long term outlook is abysmal and you know it. With regard to the O'Gara incident, 2 points. Firstly, it is extremely rare to see a player unconcious and blue on the pitch- a fuss should be made and all avenues explored to resolve it. If it was simply caused by bodies or an arm on top of O'Gara, how many blue players would we see every weekend- seriously??? Secondly, if it was deliberate, the Scottish player knows there is no tv evidence and therefore who actually expects him to come forward- he has already proven himself a coward. The first ruck in the world cup warm up game will be very interesting- thats if he has the balls to play.
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I hope the link "complain about this post" works as there many Irish posts who appear disinterested in proof and should be banned from the site. Eddie O'Sullivan should be asked to name the players who have provided sufficient evidence to make these claims, and he should be asked firmly by IRB and Six Nations to provide that name. We can then move forward and attempt to discover if anything ilegal has happened. If any of the larger forwards in the Scotland team were trapped on top of Ronan I believe that would be rather uncomfortable. Remember he is one of the smallest players in world rugby (and my wife believes is rather good looking.) i'm sure many rugby players have felt trapped in rucks to some extent and I'm sure many have also suffered knee injuries from these being held and forced in positions they are not meant to withstand, so this could easily happen with other areas of the body, aka the neck/throat. The throat is obviously more serious and I'm sure more fragile. Please can this close all outrageous posts from the Irish contingent.
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Charlie at #106, God help you, you poor wretch. Your one-sided biased and myopic polemic would be hilarious if it was not so misleading and blatantly so anti Irish. It spells out: I HATE IRISH RUGBY PLAYERS AND TEAMS AND I ONLY HAVE EYES FOR YOU AND YOUR PERCEIVED MISDEMEANOURS!!!
People have severely criticised EOS for his claim that ROG was assaulted and nearly choked deliberately in a ruck without naming the individual, and nany ask: how come the Irish players didn't react at the time by laying into the culprit?
Here is a scenario that may answer this question: The Irish players saw an individual moving onto ROG in the ruck and knew who he was. He was initially low down on ROG but as the players piled in he was shifted forward to where his hand/arm was beside ROG's neck. He took the opportunity to have a go at the outhalf under cover of a ruck. The Irish players did not suspect what he was doing to ROG until they saw the result of his handiwork. ROG may not have known who his assailant was but was completely convinced that this Scottish player was deliberately and aggressively attempting to choke him, and, lets face it, I think you would know.
So its probably a combination of ROG's word on the crime and the players word on the identity. Not enough for a court of law probably, because before you can name someone you need to be able to prove beyond doubt that it did happen and there was intent. Film evidence would be required. Serious circumstantial evidence may not be enough.
But in my opinion it needed to be highlighted. Maybe EOS could have addressed it differently, but he was being honest in his approach I believe. If one player is getting Scottish rugby a bad name then don't shoot the messenger, but deal with the issue.
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So was it Darth Vader that choked ROG from the stands?
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As I watched the game, which I had taped, I noticed that the commentators knew nothing of what was happening despite the group huddling around the physios and O'Gara. I thought this was odd that no one seemed to notice that something was going on. Just an observation.
I am also a fan of Paterson, even though Ireland is my team. I felt that his cheap shot in the first half which set off O'Driscoll was out of character. Also on O'Driscoll's part as well, since he is usually a class act. I think some poor performances recently may have shortened the Scottish fuses.
I think that the rest of us can get over whatever happened, either accidental or not, if O'Gara can get over it too. And it doesn't hurt us Irish fans to push for a Scottish victory next week.
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Case closed. The IRFU have said that they accept the decision of the match commissioner and now consider the matter closed. If someone did do something malicious i'm sure it will come out in the wash and that person will be dealt with by the authorities.
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"why hasn't a single Irish player come out to the media and agreed with him (Eddie)?" - check out the IRFU website - irishrugby.ie where you will find an interview with David Wallace...
As for why none of the lads went after the Scottish players, maybe they were too concerned for their fellow player to bother with petty retribution?
As has been said above, Eddie would not make such statements unless he was sure - he may be an ass at times but not to that degree!
I sincerely hope that this is a misunderstanding as I would hate to think any rugby player capable of such atrocious behaviour.
And us being over-hyped? It is the sign of a good team to play badly and still win. Scotland didn't threaten our line and apart from Lamont, never showed signs of the possibility.
However, I do hope they give France a good challenge this weekend and maybe even turn them over!
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The laws of the game are rigid enough with regards to violence on the rugby field and the citing commissions, with the exception of a few biased decisions here and there, are effective. What should not be allowed are the nonsensical ramblings of Irish coaches!! It appears that no Scottish players saw this incident, no Irish players saw this incident, no cameras saw this incident and even Eddie admits he didn't see this incident. This leads me to two conclusions. One: O'Gara choked on his own gum shield. Two: Eddie is desperately trying to divert attention away from the fact that his team were woefully inadequate and had they not been playing Scotland, would have been spanked!
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So the match commissioner is not citing anyone.... therefore the scot must be innocent.
I mean tana umaga was never cited for the incident against BOD therefore he was innocent. QED? i think not.
This is one of those cases which is not clear. But just because it wasnt proven on camera does not mean it was an accident, just like it doesnt mean it was deliberate. Only the players on both sides truly know.
As for Charlie (no.106), i think you may be the one person in the world who thinks that BOD is cynical - no one else spotted any of these 'misdemeanors' he supposedly committed? And bleating all summer about Umagas cowardice? if i recall correctly, he forgave Tana and always said that he hoped it was not deliberate.
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All that matters nowadays is that no matter what cheating goes on (e.g. New Zealand/Irish hands in the ruck, Wales getting a raw deal EVERY game infact) the IRB don't pick up on it until too late for example Bergamasco. Theres a different rulebook for every rugby match played now. A blessing in disguise infact seeing as Wales might have to rest Steven Jones for saturday . . .
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Regards the alleged choking incident, since there has been no proof to substantiate EOS and his slanderous allegations. Surely the IRB should step in and charge him and the so called witnesses with bringing the game in to disrepute.
Remember EOS was part of the Lions management that carried out the witch hunt on Tana Umaga.
Maybe the IRFU will be appointing Alistair Campbell as their PR guru.
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One thing that everyone has overlooked. Do even 1 of the Scottish players have a reputation for violence ? I believe not, and therefore its highly unlikely that they would start now. Highly unlikely. In fact if u think about it in a ruck which goes down that fast it would probably be damn near impossible to get your arm round someones throat and not get noticed either on camera or when the ruck broke up. Thats why this is BS.
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turn the cameras off and let them get into it. this is not a game for girls.
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Larry @ 117
Can you also explain how JFK really was killed and by whom....Di and Dodi....Mother Theresa and even my Granny I would like an answer to all these killings?
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Comment 64. Sam
You say that you are 16 and that you have always been brought up that somebody on the wrong side should get a shoeing.
You are clearly being coached by the sort of coaches that should be removed from the game and not allowed anywhere near children. In my view any coach who actively encourages this sort of behaviour is guilty of indirect child abuse.
That may seem harsh but think through certain points. You are still a child and your "always brought up" means that this was occuring when you were a younger child playing against other young children. I have seen myself coaches condoning and encouraging this in mini and midi rugby. Pretty often there are children playing who are new to the game and might only have been involved for a few weeks. And yes, they end up lying on the wrong side of rucks but more often that not because they just don't know they are doing anything wrong. Or they haven't learnt yet how to do do anything about it with people on their feet rushing in around them. So a few weeks into a playing a new sport they receive a "kicking" for no reason they understand and more importantly often witnessed by their watching parents who don't understand either. And so they are lost to the sport forever.
I am sick of the attitude that you (increasingly often) hear from youth coaches that it's a hard, physical man's game. There is no doubt that it is a hard physical game and that is the attraction. I always encourage the children I coach to play with aggression but I always stress it has to be controlled aggression. It is precisely because it is a hard physical game that the laws have to be observed and players have to control themselves. it is that which keeps a hard game safe.
Oh, and by the way; giving a shoeing to another child diminishes you as a person and a player.
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Ive been asking myself the same question after watching the glos tigers match when the touch judge came in complaining that a tigers player had shoved a glos man in fact he put his hand up to stop himself crashing into him result penalty. Had i switched channels was i watching soccer or basketball no this was rugby. Mindless violence has to be stopped but come on big blokes playing a physical game the odd blow is going to land so live and let live and unless its life threatning or aimed at the head let it go.
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I just need to say that the media band wagon based on biased opinions has forced a citing officer to look at the Bergamassco incident. There is absolutely no case to answer. I've looked at it in slow mo many times. Jones clashes heads with one of his own players - that is how he cut his eye. bergamassco entered the ruck and used his arms in a sweeping motion to clear jones away. The fist wasnt clenched. the arm did not touch Jones' face. he drove Jones off the ruck - the only possible danger was his arm rode up to Jones neck but at this point he stopped driving. This has been brought about by Jiffy getting very excited and everyone else jumping on the bandwagon. I wish I could call the citing officer myself to defend the lad who was motm by a long way. Pity because Jiffy usually is the best of the 成人快手 crew.
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There's an important point that's hardly getting a mention here. Professional rugby is an entertainment business. It's World Cup year, the game wants to market itself to get more & more players and especially fans for the future.
How many parents will want their kids to play, if the world's most famous players can be killed or maimed live on TV? Same goes for punching, stamping, gouging ... The future of the game's popularity is threatened by this sort of thing, and the authorities need to do something about it.
A lot of people talk about it being a man's game, and I'm sure many club players enjoy going "beyond the rules" every Saturday. But the reality is: the game isn't just about you any more. It's television entertainment. And there are a lot more viewers who don't want to sit next to their son on the couch and watch someone being punched or gouged or choked on TV.
I think the game has to be cleaned up more and more, or else it risks losing fans. At the end of the day it's just good business sense.
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In response to the last comment, I agree that young players in club rugby should not be encouraged to shoe, but at certain levels it does begin to become acceptable. This is not determined by age but by the competativeness. Take the U15 daily mail cup, (a competition entered by major rugby schools in england) and killing the ball by players can be a major problem for afree flowing game. They all know what they are doing at this level and so in this case i believe shoeing them off the ball becomes acceptable.
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I can't believe some of you guys are advocating retribution on who is perceived to be responsible. Assuming whatever resulted in O'Gara's injury was an accident, does this warrant a violent vigilante response? If it was deliberate, who is willing to carry out a pre-meditated revenge attack which could result in a death or serious injury? We are on very dangerous ground with some of the irresponsible comments I have read.
There is no proof of wrong doing so we must accept it was an accident and move on.
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This may be a bit controversial, but many children and young people find sports as an outlet for their aggression, whether it is rugby, football, boxing or any other sport. The feeling of running fast, scoring a try etc. is exhilarating. Sports can be used to control aggression within a child, to let them express their feelings in a controlled environment, rather than out on the town with a knife in their hand. Don't get me wrong, it is not a final solution to violence on the street, but it does help.
The issue is the control. The rules are there to control the sport. If you want to cause minimal injury, play tag rugby. If you want to avoid serious neck injuries, introduce laws to reduce the impact at the scrum, outlaw spear tackles and make high tackles illegal. I think that the laws of rugby have evolved sensibly and there should not be a knee-jerk reaction to incidents within the media that would reduce the competitiveness of the game. It is things such as eye-gouging that need to be removed from the sport. Eye-gouging is not aggressive, it is cowardly and anyoen found guilty should be heavily punished.
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violence is NOT acceptable. it isn't boxing. the rules of the game does not allow for punching, bitting choking or stamping. rugby is physical, but i know from playing that some players use violence to affect changes in certain players. only the most partial person could say that O'Gara was not targeted. Cussiter and Patterson both went in with unnecessary tackles. for my part, this has changed my opinion of the scottish team. this was cowardly and the fact that they are hiding behind the fact that no camera picked it up [why would they given it happened under about 10 men] is quite frankly disgusting. i hope the french post a cricket score against you and that you will now become the new wales of world rugby
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I can only thank the 成人快手, for what was one of the best weekend's rugby i have had the pleasure to watch in some time. The coverage was outstanding along with the commentary. Let's leave the refereeing to the people who know what they are doing and not us arm chair pundits. Once again thanks 成人快手, keep up the good work.
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When I played, admittadly only up to Colts level, if I got myself on the wrong side I would expect (and accept) a shoeing to get me out of the way. It was all part and parcel of a disruptive back-rowers play and what ou got for slowing down the ball. Once you got trodden on you knew it was time to move and did so.
The real problem is that top flight rugby is much more lenient at the ruck than at lower levels and so the international player plays at a lower skill level at the breakdown than teenagers. Rules about handling on the floor and going over the top are all let to pass and make it easier for a team to retain ball they should have lost, the number of times a player turned in the tackle has manged to move the ball in the ruck in top level rugby is to high to count. The ref in one of the games this weekend even said of a ruck that the ball wasn't out since the player in the ruck was still holding it (surely that would be handling in the ruck). The IRB don't need to change the rules at the ruck/maul to improve the game they just need to implement the rules to make it flow better and better to watch.
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Perhaps Ronan tried to strangle himself! He has self harmed before during the lions tour of Aus where he repeatadly beat himself in the face with his own fist until the lads dragged him off!
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There should be no above the shoulders or dumping ppl get killed that way, rugby for all its heavy contact has always been an example in world sports as far as sportsmanship is concerned but being honest tempers do flare in a charged physical atmosphere, professional players caught deliberatly using dirty and dangerous tactics should be banned from the game.
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If Irish players have seen the supposed perpetrator of the incident then go to the police, give an eye-witness statement and jobs done. The Scottish player will be tried in a court of law, and if found guilty, sentenced.
If not willing to give a statement SHUT THE F*** UP.
If it was deliberate I would never condone choking, but unless the Irish players who say they witnessed the incident go to the police then no more statements whould be forthcoming from them.
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I've seen a similar incident at a London Wasps match when one of the Exiles Twins had his hand to the wasps player's throat. The incident was ignored by all officials despite the fact the fact it was clearly seen as the guy kneeling down pressing down on the throat (neither had the ball either). There's accidental damage and then there's over excitement and willing to damage. I hope O'Gara is ok, he's a brilliant player.
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I played most of my rugby at hooker and very soon discovered the importance of shinpads.
To bring a little balance here, in the twilight of ruck, scrum and maul its very much a case of survival of the toughest but lets not forget that these guys are built to give and receive that kind of honest thuggery.
The line is crossed when professional careers are threatened through dirty play. I am talking about stamping on knees, gouging, spear and high tackles. Also the hitting of players in the air.
I cannot and will not believe that a rugby player would deliberately try to kill an opponent but, having been at the bottom of a ruck myself, I can understand how players can come close to suffocation, particularly if they are struggling for breath when they enter (panic doesn't help either.
That said the game seems to be drifting towards non contact with some refereeing decisions in the ruck area and lineouts.
Lying offside in a ruck is almost worth the risk if you can get a penalty and sinbinning through the legitimate attempt of rucking out (Chabal rolled around like a footballer after he was "removed" once on Sunday but got up right as rain when he realised that the linesman was having none of it).
The lineout is another, if you can't touch a player in the air, how do you compete?. Yet we rarely see penalties for taking out the supporting player which is far more dangerous.
I'm starting to rant now so I'm going to finish on a have a heart for the officials comment.
Bergamasco's "punch" looked more like a swinging arm to me albeit just as dangerous and just as illegal. I initially thought it was ok until I saw it again in slow motion several times.
The linesman and referee did not get that opportunity. That's why we have a citing commissioner.
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Real violence as opposed to physicality is unacceptable...but these things are always viewed through a prism of national bias. I remember being in New Zealand when England's Simon Shaw was sent off for a an offence that was virtually invisible and which the victim didn't even feel. Yet New Zealanders were talking in terms of lifetime bans for dangerous play. Reminding them of some of the AB's notorious stamping incidents (JPR Williams, Phil de Glanville, Kyran Bracken etc.)illicited the "well it's a man's game" line without a hint of irony at the double standard.
As a former player I find it very hard to believe that a player would deliberately attempt to choke another. As an Englishman I would also invite EOS to reflect on the number of contusions and concussions handed out by his pack two weeks ago at Croke Park before flinging out serious allegations. Perhaps time to reflect on the relative hue of his pot and his kettle.
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I sorry I never post to these boards but reading a few scottish comments today about how eddie o'sullivan should apologize I am absolutely livid. Why appologize because one of his players was being coked in the scrum by a scottish hand?! You all may not like what he said it may be difficult to swallow for your pride but it happened. O'gara didnt start kicking violently in the scrum because he was hurt in the tackle. Did the irish players tell their coach what they seen because they are spiteful? I know of these players and they built of better stuff than that. Better stuff than most of you posters demanding an apology. Get real posters or at least get honest. I believe Scottish players knew what the were doing trying to incite a penalty but even if it was an accident the irish player didnt respond by charging at the scottish player because when your team mate is blue your mind perhaps shifts from revenge. Only 2 people in the world know if O'Gara was choked. But knowing Ronan he wont name names. I think you can learn alot from the lack of the Scottish RFU's demand for an apology. Perhaps they would rather this went no further either. But get off your high rightous horses scotland fans. The rest of the world isnt stupid and eddie o'sullivan had a right to react to defend his player.
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agree with most bloggers. No violence but aggression aimed at achieving the objectives of the game is what makes Rugby what it is and should not be stopped. We now live in a society where the predominant theme is that people need to be protected from themselves and any and all risk. this is an impossible dream and by pursuing it we are creating and impossibe, repressed and closed society. result? more explosions of unexplainable violence, the exact opposite of what was intended. People like to take risks with their personal safety and Rugby is and has always been a vehicle for the release of aggression which I think is an important human need. The attempts to take this out of the game have resulted in the creatuion of too many rules which players can not hope to follow in a fast paced game. This diminishes it as a spectacle as well as making it over technical, too stop start and at worst a game where the result can depend on referees guesswork and inconsistent interpretation(eg I think most collapsed scrum penalties are pure guesswork or another example, if you're coming into a ruck at speed against one opposition player who is on the floor you are supposed to make contact with your shoulders higher than your hips - how on earth can you do that ? but that's what the laws say and its just stupid!). Do we want it to end up like American Football? we are going that way. Association football for example has very few basic and simple to understand rules. Every player on the pitch knows what they are and can manage them during the game. Rugby used to be like that. Let's get back to it. End of Rant!!
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I have watched the replay on this and it is quite disturbing, the game as whole was pretty clean except for Patterson's shoulder charge on O'Gara which got O'Driscoil so charged up. Regarding O'Gara, watching the replay in slow motion you can see him struggling at the bottom of the rook,until he sunddenly goes limp, he was ok when he went down first. Secondly when the players get up there is only one player lying on top of O'Gara and he should have rolled away after the tackle was made.
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Having played rugby for over forty years my view is that violence must not be tolerated. Rugby is a very physical game which is part of its attraction, but it is essential have respect for one's opponents. As far as rucking players is concerned I think it has always been illegal since it constitutes dangerous play. If someone is the wrong side, it is up to the referee to penalise them and/or use the sin bin. The modern game is far cleaner than it used to be, which is a good thing, but there is still a long way to go witness the Bergamasco punch on Saturday, the tackle on Skrela on Sunday where the English player deliberately wrapped his legs round Skrela to bring him down and of course the All Blacks off the ball antics in any match.
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I sorry I never post to these boards but reading a few scottish comments today about how eddie o'sullivan should apologize I am absolutely livid. Why appologize because one of his players was being coked in the scrum by a scottish hand?! You all may not like what he said it may be difficult to swallow for your pride but it happened. O'gara didnt start kicking violently in the scrum because he was hurt in the tackle. Did the irish players tell their coach what they seen because they are spiteful? I know of these players and they built of better stuff than that. Better stuff than most of you posters demanding an apology. Get real posters or at least get honest. I believe Scottish players knew what the were doing trying to incite a penalty but even if it was an accident the irish player didnt respond by charging at the scottish player because when your team mate is blue your mind perhaps shifts from revenge. Only 2 people in the world know if O'Gara was choked. But knowing Ronan he wont name names. I think you can learn alot from the lack of the Scottish RFU's demand for an apology. Perhaps they would rather this went no further either. But get off your high rightous horses scotland fans. The rest of the world isnt stupid and eddie o'sullivan had a right to react to defend his player.
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Post 129.
Firstly congratulations for being a coach and giving something to the game. I also agree with you regarding the 鈥渋t鈥檚 a man鈥檚 game鈥 mentality. Usually this is a cover for some cowardly act like punching someone in the head. If people wish to do that they should take up boxing.
However, I must take issue with your condemnation of rucking. The very first thing I was taught when I started playing was that if you find yourself in the wrong place come ruck time it hurts. An object lesson speeds this process up. A blight of today鈥檚 game is players getting on the wrong side and then holding their arms up to avoid being penalised. If a team persuades such a player to move away by rucking legitimately I see no issue with it at any level. Stamping however a la Troncon this weekend should never be tolerated.
Finally if you don鈥檛 like being hurt or physically challenged, rugby is not the game for you.
As for the object of your post Sam. Harsh to pick on an individual for a start. I鈥檇 say that belittling a 16 year on a public forum does you no great credit either.
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I sorry I never post to these boards but reading a few scottish comments today about how eddie o'sullivan should apologize I am absolutely livid. Why appologize because one of his players was being coked in the scrum by a scottish hand?! You all may not like what he said it may be difficult to swallow for your pride but it happened. O'gara didnt start kicking violently in the scrum because he was hurt in the tackle. Did the irish players tell their coach what they seen because they are spiteful? I know of these players and they built of better stuff than that. Better stuff than most of you posters demanding an apology. Get real posters or at least get honest. I believe Scottish players knew what the were doing trying to incite a penalty but even if it was an accident the irish player didnt respond by charging at the scottish player because when your team mate is blue your mind perhaps shifts from revenge. Only 2 people in the world know if O'Gara was choked. But knowing Ronan he wont name names. I think you can learn alot from the lack of the Scottish RFU's demand for an apology. Perhaps they would rather this went no further either. But get off your high rightous horses scotland fans. The rest of the world isnt stupid and eddie o'sullivan had a right to react to defend his player.
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鈥淚t is perfectly acceptable, for example, to be seen to be exerting extreme physical pressure on an opponent in an attempt to gain possession of the ball, but not wilfully or maliciously to inflict injury.鈥
So it says on the very first page of the rugby law book. When you have a sport based on this basic principle, then values and the ethical conduct of players, coaches and referees become central to how the game is to be played.
This, to my mind, boils to down to three very simple words; honesty, bravery, and equity. It is the opposite of these words, which rugby, indeed any sport must do without, cowardice, deceit and unfairness.
For example, a player attacking a ruck at full physical intensity to clear out players and dislodge the ball is honest, brave and fair. The player who joins the ruck to stamp at a prone opponent on the ground is cowardly, deceitful and unfair.
The game of rugby does not want the cowards, the liars and the cheats.
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Until this 6N Eddie O'Sullivan seemed a good and level headed coach. But over the last 6 weeks he has turned into Rugby's Jose Morinho; now complete with dogmatic accusations of misdeeds that he later has to admit that he couldnot possibly have seen. (And which the 成人快手 and the Citing Commissioner fails to see after hours in front of TV monitors!)I hope it's due to the stress of Ireland being favorites for the tournament and he will soon be back to his old self.
I can't quite understand the citing of Bergamasco and not Troncon. It seemed to me that the more the Bergamasco incident was replayed the more equivocal the video evidence seemed.Whilst footage of Troncon deliberately stamping on an oponent was clear as could be; the proverbial smoking gun. Clearly the citing officer sees things differently. I can't help thinking that he may be influenced by the damage done to the victim or the level of fuss made over the incidents rather than the evidence. On balanced I'd have cited both players.
It does seem that the players, coaches, commentators, fans and the media could all do with spending the modest sum required to obtain a copy of the laws of Rugby Union from the IRB. Then we could have less of the nonsense about stamping being allowed if the ball is nearby, if the player on the ground is in the way etc. The relevant rule clearly states that a player must not deliberately tread on another player. Which imposes a duty on players to try to avoid doing so. That is why refs are trying to be strict about players staying on their feet and rolling away from the tackle area so that rucks can develop without bodies in the way.
Going back to O'Sullivan. If he coached his players to release the ball/tackled player and roll away and to stay on their feet when joining rucks, as the laws require, then it will be less likely that someone like O'Gara will be crushed by those piling in at the breakdown.
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What are people views on the Scotland no 17 punching Donncha Callaghan just as ROG is tackled. Closed fist straight to the face. Is that acceptable?
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I thought these blogs were supposed to be monitored. I also thought in the UK you are innocent until proved guilty. Looks like approx 30% of the bloggers think the reverse. If these comments were posted in the national press many of you would be facing large court bills and reparations for deformation.
On the orginal question of acceptable violence the answer is none. On acceptable aggression my comment would be the same level as one of my favorite Scottich players - J Beattie SNR.
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I disagree with all the above posts, castigating O'Sullivan for "making slanderous remarks based on TV replays" I am no fan of O'Sullivan. I think he has under achieved with the talent at his disposal and his conservatism is maddening. HOWEVER his players told him of the incident..O'Gara was knocked out but said he felt someones hands around his neck. He kicked his feet to get free/loose of the arms. I fully support the coach for taking his players at their word. O'Sullivan DID look at it on TV and said he saw nothing, but a number of his players told him it happened. He was right, but nothing will come of this
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Why is it that as soon as a Scots or an Ireland player 'cheat' or choke someone there is an uproar? Yet in almost every game that the England game play one or more of their players cheats and lays into one of the other team and yet no one says anything about that. There obviously needs to be some amount of physical violence allowed but not in excess, if one player grabs someone from the other teams shirt that is ok but when they start punching the living daylights out of each other that is not ok. (look at old england and Wales games). I played rugby for 5 years and i know that violence does (obviously) occure on the pitch but to be standing next to someone that is beating the living daylights out of your teammate is v annoying.
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As a father of a five-year old just starting in non-contact mini rugby, and as an ex-rugby player, then if, in a few years time, my son was on the wrong side of the ruck, slowing down the ball, then yes he should be rucked out of the way - not stamped on, no rucking on the face/head, but yes, old-fashioned rucking.
Yes, I've been there, it wasn't pleasant, and more often that not there were some war wounds, but that was the name of the game.
Regarding punching, this was something that I never got involved in. Is it acceptable? Not really. Never was for me.
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on the O'gara incident. I'm not convinced anything malicous has happened and I've been enough rugby pitches to know that when something dirty or dangerous happens then all hell breaks loose. It looks to me that Hines made a thumping tackle then Hayes does what every good forward does and goes over his 10 to protect him and the ball, ruck then follows and Hines can be seen at the opposite end of O'Gara. In my view unless Hines is an octopuss he couldn't be guilty of anything and the injury was caused by a combination of bodies, angles and pads. I've been at the bottom of many rucks and always remember the time our nunber 8 came down on top of me at funny angle, was the scariest 20 sec of my life.
If some of the Irish players have "seen" something, then tell us what they've seen. On the game, well done to the Irish for grinding out a win, for us Scots a little more flair would be nice.
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the only reason no one was cited for the choking incident was because conveniently enough there is no footage as proof. eos said he wasnt going to name anyone as there is no proof. that's great for scotland. however it's worrying that no one has stood up from the scots to take any sort of responsibility. eos does not need to apologise. the fact is rog could have died out there. no tackle or ruck could do that without there being an element of force behind it.
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From past expereince, including the last Lions tour, it seems that Irish players etc have a tendency to knee-jerk and make wild accusations which they later back down from.
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i would give a statement to the police but oh what a coincidence the police only interviewed the scots and not any of the irish players? seriously if it was patterson on the ground and there was no evidence the scottish would be up in arms over it. it's not petty to be asking serious questions about what happened. it's worrying that lots of comments here are about how it's a game of rugby, these things happen! that's ridiculous. and also an admittance that something did happen. plus there is no evidence so they have their backs covered alright. how convenient. ronan and eddie are not going to name names because of the lack of footage. it should be up to the scottish to come forward but sure what do you expect from them?
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More than ever rugby is a highly confrontational and an aggressive game. To step on the pitch at any senior level, in particular the professional set up you step into a physical arena filled with extremely fit and extremely strong men all intent to win and ready to knock seven bells out of each other to achieve the result.
However in achieving this win violence cannot be tolerated by the players or administration and to a greater degree than ever before, I think this is the case. As a fan an administrator and especially as a player there are enough dangers on the pitch within the laws of the game without further increasing the risk of serious injury by tolerating violent conduct by team mates or the opposition.
As it stands most dangerous tackles are a case of bad timing, most of the stud marks on a players back are the result of legitimate reprimand for slowing the ball down, most black eyes, sore shoulders, dead legs, twists, sprains and sore necks occur as a result of the physicality of the contest, 鈥渃鈥檈st la vie.鈥
In this environment it is inevitable that on occasion people will from time to time try to intimidate their opponents further by stretching the laws beyond a fair physical contest and attempt to achieve an advantage through foul play, as in all sports when foul play occurs the recipient feels naturally aggrieved and especially when little fouls, pops, cheats, niggles and skulduggery go unpunished by the referee, policing the law becomes more of a grey area in the eyes of all 30 players on the pitch and can create an environment where violence has a far greater chance of raising its of heads.
Late tackles, elbows at line outs, over zealous front row bears getting to know each other on even more ugly terms than usual, rucking opponents becoming stamping on players and a host of other dirty and violent play creeping on to the pitch is way unacceptable.
In my eyes the only acceptable violence on a ruby pitch is most definitely not the cloak and dagger underhand nastiness but the obvious out in the open man-to-man self defence or retribution that erupts when a genuine incident of blatant dirtiness has preceded it.
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Jason, your an idiot! Lots of things can happen at the bottom of rucks that are accidental. When you have up to 17 stone of bodies piled ontop of you, it hurts. If someones leg or arm is lying over someones throat and a big boy like John Hayes lands ontop of you, nothing is going to be able to remove the arm from the throat. I myself have been chocked at the bottom of rucks by a stray arm or leg that has been pinned against my throat. All these times have been purely accidental, if O'Gara WAS choked I believe that it would have been an accident.
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Are we overlooking the possibility of an inside job? Maybe one of the Irish players has some beef with O'Gara. (The last time a Scottish arm was falsely accused of doing something was the 1994 Calcutta Cup match, in which Rob Andrew proved to be the guilty party.) Or perhaps O'Gara choked himself, after all the entire Irish team were accused of choking after the French match!
Seriously though, if any Scottish player intentionally choked ROG, he should never play for us again.
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As a number of you have already stated in a 'perfect world' no violence should be tolerated in rugby as the ref and the rules should take care of the offender - eg, someone on the wrong side. The problem is that rugby is incredibly difficult to referee - especially the breakdown, and as such to ensure a game flows and quick ball can be won, players need to be able to ruck opposition out of the way, using the boot. This is also a good deterrent to getting on the wrong side again!
Saturday was a good example of an inconsistent approach by a ref at the breakdown - basically the ref had one rule for the scots at the breakdown - ie; get out of the way immediately, and one for the Irish, ie, they got away with constantly killing or slowing the ball - 10 years ago a couple of good 'rucks' would have ensured they didn't do it again.
I thought Scotland were robbed on Saturday due to inconsistent referreeing - and it was great example of when the laws don't work due to their application.
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Post 131 Bobby H
Are you having a laugh? No seriously is that post a wind up?
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Having been at the game and only seeing the O'Gara incident from a distance, I cannot comment with authority about what may have or may not have happened. I also understand that those watching TV had a similar view?
What I can add is that having been at the bottom of rucks and mauls myself in matches, once others start piling on top, you simply can't move off a player if you are crushing him! Once players start peeling off, you always know where your knees, feet, elbows, etc were and who they were 'annoying' My point being - be it a player in a green or blue jersey who was pressing down on O'Gara, someone in that ruck knows how he lost consciousness and should own up to let everyone move on to next weeks matches.
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It is possible that a limb with a lot of weight on top of it could "choke" a player and the offendinding player to know little or absolutely nothing about it.
Without any evidence Eddy O'Sulivan looks quite silly.
Maybe he should resign, I hear they may be a position open in Wales soon >.
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# sorcha munster fan
Every time I see your posts I think of some 12 year old sitting behind a computer that has never played or watched rugby until Ireland started doing well. Did you become a chelsea fan three seasons ago.
"no tackle or ruck could do that without there being an element of force behind it."
How do you tackle or ruck someone without force!!!!! Do you even bother to read some of what you say or are you so obsessed with the international plan to make Ireland lose at everything this has slighted your vision and your ability to understand that in rugby people get hurt badly through NO malice just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Sounds just like another irish fan with a chip on their shoulder to me.
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oh and as for eos if he is not brave enough to get up and name names and explain excactly what happened then he's the coward of the incident (so far)
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It would seem that no matter what is said, our Orish cousins (and a few English types I'd guess) will continue to go on and on about the 'choke'. OS should have known better than to say anything other than the incident was being looked at, wait for the citing officals report and leave it at that. If there was evidence then all the good. OS is not judge or jury on this. But no, he had to shout his mouth of leaving nothing but suspicion and acrominy in his wake. Maybe thats what he intended?
Its a matter of time before professionalism (which='streetwise'=cheating ie holding players down at rucks so they cannot roll away) makes the wonderful game of rugby as stilted and boring as football.
As for acceptability of violence, it depends on a sliding scale based on intent and appropriateness of act to play.
Getting shoed at the wrong end of a ruck is ok, getting your head kicked in is not.
'Handbags' is ok, delibarate assault is not.
The arbiter of all this is the referee and the governing body. Not the players, coaches or fans.
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As horrifying as the pictures of a pole-axed O'Gara are, I don't believe that someone would deliberately try to choke him. O'Sullivan's comments were slightly premature and dangerous given the lack of proof. Maybe it was the result of frustration at our inablity to put away a vastly inferior Scottish side. Whatever, the incident should now be put to bed. Rog thankfully is fine and doesn't want the matter investigated further. I think we should all leave it at that.
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"you're only saying that cos your team were crap"
Grow up all of you- the issue is that an accusation of attempted murder has been made- this is serious stuff either way, whether it happened or it didn't as it would appear that "mud sticks" and "there's no smoke without fire". Get Lothian and Borders finest in to take statements from everyone there. We have a veryblue man and eewitnesses to the event- should be job done.
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hi i am a ex league turned union prop and i have to say that the ROG inicdent is similar to what happed to one of my close friends and i agree with those who say if he had been chocked the irish team would have dealt with the culprit.
In the 2 years i have been playing union i have found it to be a hard physical game and have only ever felt like a team has been aiming to intetionaly hurt me once. As to those who say the game is viloent it is not it is hard and extremly skillfull we should acept it is not tiddley winks.
This incident is not a nice thing to see but to be honest it was probably just an acident based on the reaction from the ireland players any way IRELAND 2 win the world cup :P !!!!
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Listen anyone who has played knows that by the time a punch is thrown something else usually a very quick cheapshot has happened beforehand. It is a sad fact that it is usually the retaliating player who is penalised for something his opponent has started! cheapshots are a part of some cowards games and they cannot stand face to face and do it. As for rucking, speaking as a back row forward i know when im lying there and exactly what im doing! preventing the ball being freed or turning ball over and i expect a good shoeing! i would give the same treatment to an opposing player and in 22 years playing i have never heard anyone really complain..its all part of being a forward.
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Someone has done something to O'Gara, be it accidently or on purpose. Why does the player involved not just come out and say what happened???????????
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The man was hypoxic there's no doubt of that- but there are several ways that can happen. Extrinsic compression on the airway is one, either intentional or not, the tongue or something else within the airway can do it in an unconscious individual lying on their back, or equally a tonne of bloke on top of the chest crushing you will do it. Thrashing limb movements can also occur as the person loses consciousness.
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As if the Umaga/O'Driscoll hoo-haa wasn't enough, Irish rugby now appears keen to cast disgrace over an opposing team once more.
This truly is the most hideous allegation by EOS and if, as appears to be the case, there is any dubaity at all this is a statement he simply cannot make - legally or morally. To all the individuals who appear to have managed establish that this was undoubtedly a deliberate act, take a step back, consider all the evidence once more, take a wee drop of impartiality and then see if you come to the same conclusion.
p.s. I noted at the bottom of a particularly opinionated post an additional comment, 'Come on munster!'. 2 points:
1. This doesn't seem to be particularly relevant to the topic.
2. This might give some indication as to the basis for the biased, ignorant, blinded rubbish in the comments preceding it.
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I reckon there was nothing to it... he was under something like 400kg of meat...
And as it was said it was not a malicious game...Sure, we could see O'callaghan having a laugh with the scotts lock... so even if there were some temper flares (like in every rugby game) it wasn't that kind of a match(We're not talking about the french ;) ).
I reckon o'sullivan probably got a scare for his number 10... What would we do without him?
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There is some real nonsense on this blog.
1. The question itself is pointless; the level of violence is clearly determined by the laws of the game. Is anyone seriously suggesting those laws regarding violence should be changed? If not, why ask such a stupid question.
2. When Eddie O'Sullivan made his accusation, he acknowledged that there was no video evidence so the player in question would not be found unless he owned up. Now that no video evidence is found, some morons call for his resignation.
He is a respected and experienced coach, who is renowned for his even tempered responses after games. he would not have made such an allegation had he not believed it to be true. Because no video evidence was available does not mean it didn't happen, and does not mean the Scots have been exonerated.
There is no proof that it did happen, and none that it didn't. We'll never know. The injury may have been caused deliberately or was maybe the result of an accident.
What is clear is that O'Sullivan believes what he said, did not say it lightly, and should face no criticism for saying it.
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I completely agree with post 131. The Bergamasco 'swinging arm' was what players do when clearing out opposition 9 times out of 10 and it did not cause the cut. The citing is a 成人快手 induced piece of revenge on the Italians for having the temerity to beat 'our boys'.
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In response to Doyle, really mature attitude to have mate.
unfortunately there is no evidence of what happend (either against a scottish player or it being accidental) as this would have helped clear the whole thing up. I feel though that Ireland perhaps gesturing towards who they believe did it would perhaps result in a response from this player, whether it was foul play or not. And Irish fans, you can not honestly tell me that had a Scottish player choked OG and a member of his team had seen it, that at least one of his team mates would have responded in some physical manner on the field? BOD certainly did when Patterson hit OG in a lateish tackle earlier in the game (attempt at a closed fist). overall though, congratulations on the win and another triple crown.
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To post 161, Guy.
Please elaborate on that post...It makes no sense to me at least
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Just how is someone supposed to own up to something they haven't done? Mr O'sullivan trusts the words of his players who saw what happened- why are they not telling the press?
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As far as the Scots deserving to win, look at the stats and dubious penalties awarded to the Scots. On the O'Gara incident, EOS was asked about this at the press conference. He didn't bring it up. He didn't accuse anyone of 'attempted murder', he was justifiably passionate in his defence of his player. This could all have been avoided if the Scottish Player in question came out and explained his part in the incident, instead of cowardly silence, the same player seen punching O'Callaghan earlier in the game and nothing came of that. The problem is that all players, management teams, supporters etc. come down on the side of their team, I for one. would sacrifice a player of my nationality for fair play & justice. Mark Jones stopped playing to save Simon Easterby from a swolled tongue while playing for Llannelli, I'm sure he would also do it if reland were playing Wales. The Scots area disgrace.
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Referees need to sort their act out, and help keep players' inevitable frustrations to a minimum. Rucking, for example, need not be an issue if referees were quick to blow up and reward the infringing player with an immediate yellow card- players would soon cotton on, and stop slowing down ball.
There can be no room for any violence beyond the laws of the game. Increasingly one hears of court summons on the back of incidents of violent play on the rugby pitch. I feel this is how it should be. You cannot legally or morally punch someone in the street, so how can it possibly be deemed acceptable in sport? Anyone who subscribes to the 'heat of battle' argument ought to have their heads checked. If a player cannot control himself on the pitch and be held responsible for his actions, then he should not be playing- simple as that.
Violence is a culture. Professionalism has done much to phase out part of that violence, and it should be encouraged to continue to whipe it out completely. Rates of attrition have already been hugely effected in the last 10 years, to allow illegalities to add to that injury list would be crazy.
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Could somebody please explain to me HOW O鈥橲ullivan should have reacted? Should he have made little of the fact that O鈥橤ara was left blue-faced and motionless on the pitch at the end of the match? Should he have labeled the incident a mistake and just disregarded what he was being told by his own players?
O鈥橲ullivan is answerable to the IRFU, the Irish public and, of course, the Irish media. Whether or not the story is picked up and run by the Scottish media is out of O鈥橲ullivan鈥檚 hands. What backlash would he have encountered from the Irish public and media had he not responded to the incident, especially in light of the graphic images of one of our own choking pasted across the front pages of tabloids and broadsheets on Sunday morning?
O鈥橠riscoll, the politician, said there was no malicious undercurrent in the game, which, as anyone who watched the game knows, was not true. Chris Paterson, who would have always struck me as an honest player, set the tone when, unprovoked, he dropped a shoulder into O'Gara after the whistle was blown for a penalty in the first half; don鈥檛 tell me he was committed to the tackle, it was late and it was unwarranted. And that is exactly why O鈥橲ullivan reacted the way he did; this match WAS malicious.
The eerily subdued atmosphere at the end of the game summed up a bizarre afternoon in Murrayfield. The meeting of Ireland and Scotland is usually an amicable occasion, and one of good relations, both on and off the pitch, but Saturday was anything but amicable. Ireland underperformed, no surprise there, and Scotland became frustrated at their ineptitude to secure a win after they had moved 5 points ahead.
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*If* one of the Scottish players does take responsibility for choking O'Gara, then believe me, I'll be completely and utterly appalled by it, and yes, they should face all appropriate disciplinery action and be banned for as long as possible - if not permanently. I don't feel comfortable supporting a team knowing that they're capable of doing that, and I won't defend one either.
Having said that, just from having watched the footage several times, I couldn't see a Scottish limb anywhere near O'Gara's neck at that point. What are the chances that it was accidental? What are the chances that it was an Irish limb? It's entirely possible that under however many players O'Gara was under, that somebody accidentally crushed him - knees and arms go everywhere in that situation. If the Scots were at fault, why hasn't one of the Irish players come forwards and named names? Surely that alone indicates that nobody can be sure of what went on at the bottom of the ruck? I wouldn't have been able to keep quiet after seeing that, so surely we would have seen something on the pitch as a result?
On the question in general, no, violence isn't acceptable in an ideal world. On Saturday there were a number of scuffles, but as long as I've watched it, I've realised that there is always going to be some level of violence on the pitch - it's the nature of the game. I don't think fighting is acceptable, and I'm the first to start on a Scotland player if I think they've been over-zealous on the tackles or committed foul play, and I don't like stamping either - but it happens. Players should be pulled up when they are stamping too much, and I'd say leave it up to the refs, but we still wouldn't be guaranteed a clean game then!
I do hope that whatever happened comes out, and whoever the guilty party is apologises. I'd hate to see one of my favourite fixtures ruined because of allegations flying. Us Celts need to stick together!
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sorcha munster fan-
If you know something (as your post suggests)- then HAVE SOME COJONES AND GO TO THE FLAMIN' POLICE YOURSELF! There's no good sniping from the sidelines
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Why should eddie be reprimanded. Clearly something happended to ROG. he was targeted all game - particularly by Cusiter. He was either tckeled high which is negligent or worse there was malicious intent. I think we can rule out malice on the basis of what the Irish have said but there was almost certianly negligence and Eddie is not one to moan and groan after a game so there is no smoke without fire. Anyway all is forgotten and forgiven. the amount of scots who are bitter and wishing the italians beat us is sad given the special relationship between ireland and Scotland. I hope you do a number on the French whatever the outcome of our match and that goes for the Welsh as well.
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Whoever wrote post 178 (mole is clearly as blind as the name suggests) has clearly never seen the reverse angle footage of the Umaga/O'Driscoll incident. It proves conclusively that there was an intention to put the captain out of the tour, and should have been dealt with by a red card. Of course, no referee would ever have the courage to red card a top player in the first few minutes of a game, which is why they knew they'd get away with it.
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Post 159
Your right when you say that Hines was at the opposite end of O'Gara, but watch the replay in slow motion, there's plenty of clips on the internet. See where he's lieing when he gets up and who else is around. And why was no one cited when the match official looked at the tapes. You can clearly see O'Callaghan being punched before the tackle.
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To say that no level of violence is acceptable beyond the laws demonstrates a basic misunderstanding of one of the great tenets of the game.
Intimidation of ones opponent, be it through physical or psycological gamesmanship is part of the armoury of a good rugby player and it is what makes rugby such a wonderful, multi-layered sport.
In rugby as in life you do what you can to get an edge. You know the rules and know that if you step outside them you risk getting 'pinged' which could lead to penalties that can harm you and those dependant on your actions. OK, enough sociology but in the rugby sense, the ability to tempt your opponent the wrong side of the line to gain advantage, was a part of the game I loved (yes, I was a hooker!). Also the ability to resist such provocation was a skill of equal importance and one that meant you could win the game within the game.
My point (back to the sociology I'm afraid) is that I'd rather my son learnt about life this way rather than learn that if someone cheats or hurts you and gets away with it the answer is to go run and tell (the media, citing commisioner, dinner lady?).
The England game at the weekend proved that players now deliberately get offside in the tackle and then move extra slowly away from the tackle area, in order to impede the suporting oppostion players, either tripping them as they ruck or impeding the scrum half. This happens because they feel safe there now that refs leap upon the slightest hint of aggressive rucking. In the past it was self governing. I was taught that you never broke your stride pattern running into a ruck because you'd hurt yourself. If someone was on the floor, they were the floor (team mate or opposition).
If you cheated you avoided getting pinged or rucked and you knew that when you took the gamble to go offside.
The game is being 'prettied up' to suit an indifferent audience of disaffected football supporters and housewives. The result is that the presure on the officials is making the outcome of some tight games a lottery. All self governeance has been removed and the game is poorer for it. Booing of refs, managers whinging to the media about unfair treatment. trial by television. It's not a chilling vision of the future of rugby, it's the unfortunate reallity.
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how is it ignorant to be concerned about a players health? the vehement and angry responses from scottish fans here are worrying. why the anger at a reasonable concern? eddie o sullivan does not go shooting his mouth off at every single incident but he had every right to this weekend. the scottish fans claim it didnt happen as the footage didnt show anyhting. that could be tru but it could also have occured. the fact that nothing could be seen did not mean it did not happen. we're not trying to target the whole scottish nation we just wanted some answers and it would have been not unreasonable to ask whoever the scottish player was to come forward and clear the whole thing up without the irish players casting aspersions on the scottish team wihout knowing for definite who it was. is that so wrong? the reason the irish dindt confront the scottish afterwards was because there was no point in exaserbating the situation even further. if the irish team had named names then the scottish would be even more angry and naming and shaming without definite proof. now maybe o gara doesnt want it to go further but if nothing untoward had happended why cant someone just speak up and put the matter to rest?
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Ahem "no smoke without fire"
Dangerous point of view
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Rugby is a physical game, and if we continue down the route we seem to be taking at the moment we will lose everything that is right in the game. On Sunday Martin Corry was penalised for use of the boot. The French player was lying on the wrong side of the ruck, making no attempt to move, in my view he deserved to get rucked by Corry's boot, what was he supposed do? Ask the French man to polite move.
On Saturday's issue, the 成人快手 showed the footage they had a number of times and not once could you see if anyone was choking O'Gara, non of the Ireland players have come out and said the saw anything so where this accusation from O'Sullivan comes from is anyones guess. It is highly unusual for not one of the Irish players at the ruck to have seen anything, that is of course if it actually happened
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I disagree with post 131 - The swinging arm from Bergamasco was exactly the same offence that Scott Gibbs committed on the 1997 Lions tour of South Africa (for which he was banned for a match or two) and as Jiffy said on the day was a typical Rugby League manoeuvre. How can swinging an arm be classed as clearing out? If you want to clear out then you take Stephen Jones under the arm or leg and heave him out of the way. An arm to the face is never going to do the job. What Bergamasco did was what most forwards tend to do from schoolboy upwards - if you see the fly-half on the floor you try a cheap shot to shake him a little to make him off his game. In my opinion his citing was deserved leading to schoolboys upwards being discouraged from cynical acts. Play the Game boys ....Play the Game....
I agree that maybe TMO's should be able to give input on major incidents such as this but as long as it doesn't interrupt the flow of the game e.g. the TMO should not get involved every time he sees a slight knock-on or a marginal forward pass that has been missed by the Ref/Touch officials.
On the bblog in general, Rugby is a physical game and u can see why sometimes people lash out. It would take a lot for a player to be able to think calmly in heated exchanges (especially in the pack) hence the Bristol front rower's lashing out at Phil Vickery when Vickery was holding the prop back ... The prop apologies afterwards but in the heat of the moment things happen. What I think needs to be taken out of the game is the intentional swipes which are designed to provoke a reaction. Who needs it ? rugby as a sport is magical and physicality is par for the course but we could do without the idjuts that use it as an excuse for lawful battery and assault.
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I think Timmy no.25 was not watching a Southwell was not even on the park at the end of the game.
Just shows how accurate Timmy was in his version of events.
EOD should apologies and be a real man in this incident.
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I normally enjoy the 成人快手 blog, normally 90% of people on it talk sense, not on this blog though.
Fact - Ireland were lucky, they are a world class team who should have put Scotland away by 20, they played badly and nearly got what they deserved. I am a proud scot but I'm not going to say sorry because Ireland on the day couldn't break us down. A small minority of Irish fans
Ireland will recover and will be a force at the world cup, they need to shore up the scrum though. The AB's would have completely destroyed both teams on Sat, Ireland by 30, Scotland by 50! I'm not joking.
Fact - Scotland cheat at the breakdown, handle on the floor, slow the ball down and have "lazy runners"
SO DO IRELAND ! My only moan is that we are not as clever at it as Irealnd are! It's up to the IRB and Refs to stamp it out, until then stop complaining everyone. It's part of the game for better or worse. Rucking should happen - Punching shouldn't - Easy!
Thank god ROG is alright, that seems to have been forgotten in the posts above. In an ideal world all the Ireland and Scotland players/coaches would sort this out behind closed doors. Matter closed,We are going the way of football/chelsea/arsenal - Not face to face, man to man - all through the press. Reading the above as well, Scots and Irish rugby fans are moaning and accusings like football fans as well.
Not good.
Good luck to Ireland for Saturday, I hope you win the 6N, that seems to have been forgotten as well!
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#181.
At last someone with a bit of sense. It is so petty, how many times was the clear out repeated? About 12, one after the other, ridiculous, if it had been Johnny wilkinson there would have been cries of "Good on him / should have knocked his head off" etc. in the this blog.
It will be a travesty if it is found as anything more than an effective and aggressive clearing out move.
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Charlie (106):
The tackle on Morgan was EARLY not late. It was early by about half a second. Yeah BOD was trying to cream him, but I think that he would have done it on time if he could. I'm sure he just mis-timed it , but it was careless and dangerous.
Lunds tackle on Dempsey was after he had caught the ball and was still in the air. It wasn't deliberate in my opinion (just as BODs) but there is nothing wrong with the ref having a talk to him...just like there would have been nothing wrong with him have ing a talk to O'Driscoll.
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Hey why would anyone want to harm Ronan O Gara? - he's gorgeous! Does anyone happen to know if he has a girlfriend!
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Oh dear, it turns out Ireland aren't as good as they think they are and are reduced to bleating on pathetically about some dubious allegation made by their fustrated coach. Lets face it you were lucky to beat us boys and we know we are not a great side. Ireland to win the world cup... I don't think so. Quarter finalists at best but at least that will be an improvement on last time.
What about this take on events:
ROG gets smashed by big Nathan and is concussed.
EOS invents allegation of choking (ironic after the French game).
ROG (Ireland's only frontline 10)doesn't miss final weekend with concussion.
Hmmm that EOS is a wily old fox.
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Players get targeted by other players all the time - it's nothing malicious, it's a tactical ploy to stop certain players getting into the game. Cusiter presumably identified O'Gara as the chief threat in terms of points, and by getting in his face, maybe he hoped to upset his game a little (certainly used to work!). He wasn't tackled dangerously - it was, generally, a clean match.
It appears that the incident was an accident. The Irish players haven't come forward and said anything to the contrary, and seeing as they were there, and you weren't, I'd be much more inclined to believe them than any of you.
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Bearing in mind how physical rugby is, with players bigger, faster and fitter than ever before, it is amazing that the level of unacceptable violence is as low as it is. We are no where near the pathetic petulance and cheating of most top footballers and their coaches.
But JB does pose an excellent question, and if the consensus is that unacceptable violence is starting to sneak in then it needs nipping in the bud asap. Where are the IRB in this discussion, I assume they are constantly looking at these issues? They have the tools, with viedeo evidence, to act on most occasions.
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"Is it ok to lift them up in the tackle and then drive them back ten yards and dump them on their back?"
Your Damn right it SHOULD BE..
I thought this was the perfect tackle????
next we will be saying that attackers with the ball cannot drop their shoulders in for fear of hurting the defender...
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The use of violence in rugby is an integral part of the game which is accommodated, encouraged and regulated by the rules. The levels of infringement frequently demonstrated by players at international and top-flight level scarcely extend beyond a sly dig in a maul to an off-side player or over-enthusiastic ruckingor clearing of a player who may not actually be impeding the ball's release at a ruck.
So what?
These players practice cheating by lying where the shouldn't or by leading with a forearm or fist all week. They know how far they can go and what to expect from one another, or, if spotted, from the officials. Of course there is an occasional exception, but (happily) very few.
The ONLY well-placed sympathy in this debate should be for ref's and players at lower levels where less skillful players may seek to imitate the actions of the stars and go too far, injuring someone who, whether through lack of skill or fitness receives far worse injuries than their professional counterparts.
The governing bodies have a dilemma: do they continue to allow people with jobs and lives away from rugby to get hurt by the lower league idiots who only turn up on a saturday to try to hurt a weaker, more vulnerable opponent, hoping not to be sued by the victims, or do they grasp the nettle and insist on 3 competent officials at every game played, whatever the level and a rigorous enforcement of the rules?
The pros get (and give) exactly what they deserve in terms of rough treatment. You're far more likley to get seriously hurt turning out for the local 3rd XV with a doddery old ref and no touch judges.
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194 Sorcha
Nobody denies O'Gara was in peril at the end of the match- I know what the consequences of hypoxia can be, believe me.
The question is how did that come about
Why are you surprised that the Scottish fans are upset that this serious unsubstantiated claim has been made-think a minute about it, the Irish coach is making a criminal accusation. He appears to not want to put his money where his mouth is and name the player he suspects, neither do the alleged eye witnesses, therefore a cloud hangs over the entire Scottish team. In what way is that fair? If someone is guilty then they should be appropriately punished- no argument. You say you want answers- but only those who were there have them and that includes first and foremost those irish players who saw something but aren't telling- after all how can someone who has done nothing wrong own up to something. The police are not going to need video evidence if there are sworn statments and a victim.
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Violence like witnessed over the weekend, Only solidifies my belief that rugby is less of a mans game and more of thugs game. Since when has violence been linked to been a man? There are too many people who belief however that this is the case, If these players wish to be so violent why not just take up boxing, and let rugby go back to what it should be...Playing Rugby, not fighting.
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I think people are getting a big hot and bothered over nothing here.
The issue is deliberate "choking"/strangulation in the thick of the ruck or maul. I don't think you will hear anyone gainsaying the argument that this sort of foul play along with the likes of hooking the opponents eyes nose or mouth has no place in the game and deserves punishment.
Others have described "shoeing" i.e. traditional rucking in all sorts of extreme ways. Lets get one thing clear - the player who lies on the floor disrupting the opposition ruck forming over him (and often slowing the ball down just by being there) is committing an offence. There is a big difference between stamping and rucking and while one is dangerous and unacceptable the other has to have a place in the game now that releasing the ball and tackler at the breakdown is such a key area.
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Personally I think as there was no scottish
EOS comes forward and says it was scottish so we are now tarred with a brush he cant produce. He knew fine well if he had named anyone then he could be sued to the moon and back but no we have idiots like sorcha supposed rugby fan stating that they know something the other 67199 of us there missed.
Sorcha and EOS have two things in common both idiots and both willing to open their gob without proof
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anyone been the victim or seen a team mate be the victim to what can only be described as blatant thuggery perpetrated by someone hiding behind the rules of the game? recently one of my team mates suffered serious facial damage caused by an off the ball incident while he lay unprotected on the ground. kicking or punching someone in the face with intent to harm while they are trapped at the bottom of a ruck is not the act of a man but a thug. sooner referees and authorities take a zero tolerance approach to foul play the better.
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Acceptable violence is what your team does,
Unacceptable is what the opposition does.
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although they attempted to show some footage on the tv it was inconclusive, and therefore as mentioned why have the witnesses not come forward etc.
Another example would be the welsh match against italy(still sad about this loss, sharing the pain John); But before their winning try, in a ruck as the ball was coming out the welsh player moved his leg so to stop the ball from coming out and ended up with a penalty. Hence just after the ref blew up an italian player then took it on himself to goto the ruck then stamp onto the players back leg in front of the ref, now Sorry but that is retaliation and therefore should have been a reverse pen hence wales getting the pen, but know just told not to do that again..
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So, citing commissioner has seen nothing (even with enhanced images??).
Well I'm sure that anyone who has a recording of the match will see a stonker of a punch being thrown by a Scot (and landing quite neatly on an Irish jaw), just as the "choking" ruck is forming..... how could this be missed.... Hmmm... maybe better for the "clean" image of professional rugby that all this hulabaloo is swept away... It's not like it was blatantly obvious a la Trevor Brennan's wham, bam, thank you Ulster Fan !!
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Rugby is always going to be a game which balances on a very thin rope of aggression and out and out violence, but I think that currently the mood is very much towards sanitising a game which is about raw passion - which to me seems a shame. It seems there is definately no place for a great player like Danny Grewcock in the england team, because he is 'too erratic'. In the Ireland match, he was sin binned for a crime which didn't really deserve such a harsh punishment, especially in light of some other events in this six nations, but his reputation went before him and so his punishment was cranked up!
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Willie John McBride and the 99 call - the man has been hailed for years and will always be associated with this moment of pure violence. Are the Irish being a little hypocritical here?
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With cameras everywhere and the next generation of Rugby players watching there is really no acceptable level of violence at this level of the game.
Why is the TV footage not used in the same way as it is for looking at grounding options?
That way Bergamasco would have been off the field for the outrageous punch thrown at Jones. (Hard to say for an England fan)
Eddie O should be cited for his comments about ROG. ROG got caught by a huge tackle and found himself winded at the bottom of a ruck. If you dont want to be there, dont play the game. The TV footage shows no foul play in this instance.
The one thing that has worried me most about this 6 Nations however is the inconsistent refereeing.
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Firstly on the issue of the ROG incident. As a long time number 6 and 13 , so therefore very familiar with being at the bottom of rucks, I can attest to the fact that being choked accidently by even a knee to the throat is very possible (as happened to me). I agree with posters that commented that it seemed weird if there was a deliberate action by a scottish player that the Irish players didn't go nuts at the time. Eddie O'Sullivan's outburst wasn't even supported by ROG himself.
As for the general level of violence in Rugby. There is a big difference between controlled applied aggression and out and out violence. Therefore there is no acceptable level of violence in rugby.
A couple of posters here have said that stamping is acceptable. I am hoping these poeple have confused rucking with stamping. Stamping is the deliberate use of the foot in a purely downwards motion to inflict pain and should not be tolerated. There will always be a certain level of violence in Rugby but when it raises it's ugly head it should be punished.
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I like the way that the "welcome to international rugby", elbow in the face from Horgan to Strettle the other week was not a deliberate attempt to hurt him, whereas getting trapped at the bottom of a ruck by O'Gara is attempted murder?? The player who had hold of him may have have 3 other beefcakes on top of him and therefore couldn't let go!??!!?
I play back row and if someone is lying over the ball in a ruck, making no attempt to move away and the referee hasn't blown, then you have to get him raked out of there to free the ball. I see nothing wrong with that. It is all good and well debating the international issue, but they are all big strong professionals who are used to taking the hits and I doubt a stamp/rake, when appropriate would bother them, they would more than likely expect it.
At the lower level that I play it has to done and the player is probably best out of there anyway, before a pile on starts. The problem arrives when there are idiots involved who don't know where to draw the line and go climbing all over someone. Also having referees who are no where near the action causes players to enforce the rules themselves sometimes, not right, but if you're going to play the game.
Don't get causght on the wrong side, and if you do, let people know you are trying to roll away.
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Sam (post 63) says: I must say, as a 16 yr old, that the new interpretation of the rucking law gets on my nerves.
There has been no new interpretation since well before you started playing 15-a-side. Pretty much since you were old enough to say the word ball, it has been illegal to give someone a shoeing for being where you don't want them to be.
There are plenty of people on this forum who believe it is legal to push a player backwards with your foot; it is not. There is no exception to the fact that deliberately placing your boots on someone else's body is illegal, and should result in a yellow card at least.
As to hitting hard - no limit within the laws. Rush as hard as you like into a ruck or maul - as long as you do so from the back. Tackle a player as hard as you dare, given that you are using your own body as the battering ram.
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I would endorse the comments made by Ben (#162). I have also been at the bottom of a ruck, somehow lying on my back with another player ending up across my throat. The act was not deliberate - just the normal movement of players pushing and shoving each other to clear out the ruck.
My question would be what the referee was doing. When I nearly choked, the referee was stood about six feet away and could plainly see what was happening but did not blow up. Players are hardy and we do take alot of punishment, some intentional and some accidental. However the referee should still be protecting the players to ensure that anyone that could end up at the bottom of a ruck in the position of being choked, whether accidentally or not.
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stewart, the scottish fans are just as idiotic as u allege myself and eos to be as they have spoken without proof also! there was no proff that nothing happened either!
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stewart, the scottish fans are just as idiotic as u allege myself and eos to be as they have spoken without proof also! there was no proof that something didn't happen either! what the hell is the abuse about. are scottish fans really that defensive. the police did sweet fa anyway.
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Bleating Irish get on with it
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Some of these comments (#53, #67, #192 for example) are extraordinary in claiming that we should continue to assume that the Scots are guilty because the TV evidence is inconclusive. This is crazy. Until the Irish players who claim to have seen the incident come forward and describe fully what they saw, EOS's allegations remain nothing other than 2nd hand hearsay. I had always thought rugby fans were generally a reasonable bunch of people, but it seems from this discussion that there are people out there who are happy to rely on EOS's unsubstantiated, 2nd hand account and in their own minds convict members of the Scottish rugby team of attempted murder (no less). Of course the Ireland team had a right to be concerned about ROG's welfare - so was everyone watching or involved in the match (you'll see on the footage Scottish players waving on the medical staff just as frantically as their Irish counterparts), but that's no excuse for making such serious accusations when there's an apparent lack of evidence. We're talking about attempted murder here, not an off-the-ball smack in the chops.
As for those who claim EOS always maked reasonable public statements, he has been known to offer some pretty wild interpretations of what's gone on on the field of play in the past, both on and off the ball - he's only human after all.
I can't believe EOS's stance. I thoroughly abhore the notion of players going out of their way to maliciously do an opponent any kind of harm. If EOS genuinely believes his allegation is true, it is too serious to leave hanging in the air in this enigmatic way. He should raise the matter formally with the rugby authorities and possibly with the police and Crown Office too given its seriousness. Although the videos don't show anything, he seems adamant that the testimony of his (unnamed) players who witnessed the alleged incident is accurate. That would often be enough for a court of law if the accounts corroborate one another. As a Scot I wouldn't want a person who tried to throttle another player to repsent my country and would back any punishment dished out to him. EOS should either back the witnesses to give their evidence in a disciplinary hearing or recognise that the allegation is unfounded and offer a full and public apology.
By not taking either course EOS is leaving a cloud of suspicion over a number of Scottish players that will tarnish their reputations for some considerable time. I've read at least four names being thrown around as the possible 'culprit' (even though some of the suggestions are utterly crass - see #25). Even if one is indeed guilty there are therefore at least three guys going around unfairly suspected by some of attempted murder. Surely even the Irish fans who are backing EOS on this discussion can see that that's unfair. EOG lacks class if he doesn't clear up the matter either by pursuing the matter fully (as he is morally obliged to do if he has reliable evidence from witnesses) or publicly apologising for making completely unfounded allegations.
The ROG 'incident' is of a completely different order to the other kinds of violent play mentioned - everything from boots on bodies to hard dumping tackles. Unlike some of these other kinds of infringements, this isn't the kind of accusation that should be dealt with 'behind closed doors' by the respective unions. It's in the public interest that something this serious is dealt with openly and rigorously and I'm extremely frustrated that EOS is refusing to see it through and depressed that so many Irish fans are happy to back his complete inertia since making the accusation.
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Bleating Irish!!
Rugby is a man's game - injuries are inevitable. Players accept the risk of incurring injury every time they step onto the pitch.
Mike R is spot on re: Horgan on Strettle - that was clear cheapshot that could have broken Strettle's jaw. He and England got on with it without moaning. Ireland should do the same.
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Bleating Irish!!
Rugby is a man's game - injuries are inevitable. Players accept the risk of incurring injury every time they step onto the pitch.
Mike R is spot on re: Horgan on Strettle - that was clear cheapshot that could have broken Strettle's jaw. He and England got on with it without moaning. Ireland should do the same.
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No. 215. Irish hypocritical, surely not!
I think EOS is a disgrace and if he doesn't apologise then the soured relations will take a long time to heal unless an Irish player speaks out.
As a Scotsman, the sort of accusation made is taken very very very seriously, the Irish are maybe used to slandering and accusing each other outrageously on a regular basis, but not us.
I was at the match and it was clear there was something seriously wrong right at the final whistle but not one single Irish player remonstrated with a Scot either at the time or on the way off the pitch - this for me must be one of the clear indicators. The fact that officials have studied all available evidence in detail and found nothing untoward is the clincher.
EOS and the Irish, get a grip, catch yourselves on and think a bit before opening your mouths.
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I saw the footage and the photos in the Indy. I was discusted and utterly agreed with Eddie. It is revolting what some gutless pathetic idiot will do in the name of a "game". One of the Scottish team did this, and they haven't had the sense to come forward and admit it.
To the guy who tried to throttle an Irishman - you are a pathetic loser.
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I think the sunday game was a case in point, and England player got penalised for stamping. When they replayed the incident, the French player may not have been lying on the ball, but was directly behind the ball and so would make it tougher for the ball to be quickly recycled, or for the forwards to drive forward. The English Forward was not stamping, he was trying to shove the offender out of the way with his foot - which looked like legitimate rucking to me. The current law of rucking is a joke, its allowing players to lie around at the back of the ruck, and get away with it. I've done this myself, and fully expect I'll have a ton of stripes across my back and legs the next day, its part of the game.
Stuff like spearing, tackles around the neck, etc are definitely out of order - and if someone offends, they deserve to either get penalised or given a shoe-ing then next time they are in a ruck.
As for a dig or two to intimidate the opposition, its all part of the psychology of the game - you want the opposition to fear you.
Some laws are good, but stuff like the interpretation of the rucking law is just a joke.
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Post 189 Roy
Can you expalin how video can clearly prove an intention? Is this the new mind reading video we've been hearing so much about?!
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I don't like how both football and rugby are being sanitised.
I grew up believing that if you got caught on the wrong side of a ruck you got a shoeing. It was your fault for being there, whether you were doing it to slow the ball down or because you hadn't got out of the way quickly enough.
It may well be illegal but I am firmly of the opinion that in the professional era there are players who stay on the wrong side deliberately knowing that if they do get a shoeing they'll get a penalty. It's not right, you should be penalised for being on the wrong side. Either by a penalty or by a shoeing. I'm sure most people here qill agree that one shoeing quickly teaches you where to be at a ruck.
And I agree that Eddie O'Sullivan's comments were ill advised. If there was genuine violence towards O'Gara at the time then the Irish players would have reacted to it. Look at O'Driscoll's reaction to a late hit from Chris Paterson earlier in the game.
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Post 189 Roy
Can you expalin how video can clearly prove an intention? Is this the new mind reading video we've been hearing so much about?!
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I don't like how both football and rugby are being sanitised.
I grew up believing that if you got caught on the wrong side of a ruck you got a shoeing. It was your fault for being there, whether you were doing it to slow the ball down or because you hadn't got out of the way quickly enough.
It may well be illegal but I am firmly of the opinion that in the professional era there are players who stay on the wrong side deliberately knowing that if they do get a shoeing they'll get a penalty. It's not right, you should be penalised for being on the wrong side. Either by a penalty or by a shoeing. I'm sure most people here will agree that one shoeing quickly teaches you where to be at a ruck.
And I agree that Eddie O'Sullivan's comments were ill advised. If there was genuine violence towards O'Gara at the time then the Irish players would have reacted to it. Look at O'Driscoll's reaction to a late hit from Chris Paterson earlier in the game.
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You will need to register but
It would appear that a little backtracking is happening in terms of what Mr O'Sullivan actually said. But check out some of the feature writers! We are on to a loser here guys, essentially because Eddie does not lie, no one is prepared to accept an alternative explanation for O'Gara's condition at the end of the match.
This is horrible
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Sorcha Munster (#160) suggests that the Irish camp are not naming names because of a lack of video footage, but O'Sullivan would have made his initial comments before having the opportunity to check all footage.
Was it simply Ireland's intention to distract the citing commissioner from O'Driscoll coming in where he wasn't involved (again)?
A player choking at the base of a ruck is a concern, but either Ireland know who it was (and deliberate choking, or attempted murder as its known off the field, is far more serious than fellow Irishman Trevor Brennan throwing a few punches at a fan and so the Irish players are duty-bound to name the culprit), or it was completely accidental, in which case the Irish management should be brought to book by the IRB.
Managers making perfectly valid comments about poor refereeing makes them subject to fines, etc. Why should O'Sullivan be able to make effectively slanderous accusations with no fear of any sanctions being levied?
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167 opinions been given as my self being welsh iam not being biased at all eddie o'sulivan made very strong allegations against the scottish side he says his players know who committed the offence the scottish camp say no foul play was committed.NO one can make such allegations of this sort and not make them offical. IF no such complaint is made then surely he should be made to withdraw it.This cannot be swept under the carpet to not do anyhing would be as crimanal ANact as could be putting other players in Danger.IF it was foul play then let the PoLICE investigate it.The scottish team on the field otherwise WOULD BE UNDER SUSSPICON. But IF THE ALLEGATIONS MADE were in the heat of the moment then come on eddy eat humble pie and say your sorry.
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Accetable violence ... there is none. The Laws (capital L) state the penalties.
If we turn to cheating (almost the same) can we have a quick look at the British National game.
Look at any Premiership Football match & see how it compares.
I have always said that I would love to see Rugby Officials in charge, maybe even mixed Rugby (either code!) / Football teams to see how teammates react to others theatrical skills. I think it would be most rewarding.
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What footage? Which pictures?
There are many ways to be rendered hypoxic at the bottom of a scrum, not just deliberate strangulation. Were you there?
The most depressing thing here is the readiness of some to be judge, jury and executioner in the absence of evidence (in the public domain at least)- what happened to being innocent until proven guilty?
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As has been said previously, the possibility (probability) is that the ROG incident was an accident. Therefore, how can anyone confess to something the didn't knowingly do? This includes the possibility that an Irish limb did the damage.
I do not accept that witnesses to a deliberate choking did not intervene. Some ridiculous reasons for this include "not wanting to make the situation worse!!", or, "the Irish players were too concerned about the well being of ROG to retaliate!!" I firmly believe that if anyone saw anything untoward, they would have stepped in.
I am just thankful that ROG recovered after very prompt assistance.
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Hello i have watched the footage of the incident with O'Gara and I am disgusted with the irish handling of it
John Hayes the irish no 3 landed on o'Gara's head and shoulders as he came into the tackle from the side. I have asaked the IRFU to comment on this aspect of the incident and they refuse to do so and do not even bother to reply just send out repeat trite responses.
As John Hayes was the player who threw himself on top of O'Gara then he should tell us what he did in the ruck. Also who was the player to ahve seen this deliberate choking and he should either say what and who he saw os apologise as should Eddie O'Sullivan.
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In terms of what is allowed how about early and late tackling. Having watched France and Scotland play very flat in defense, it often seems very close to offside. the French team in particular must be off side quite often and I think these early tackles, aside from a level of danger, can really kill a free flowing game.
If you watch replays a few times of Ireland against France, and against Scotland, and again in England v France, you will see plenty of early and late tackles.
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Kate Brown #226.
Oh dear.
So you were able to ascertain more from a newspaper photo than the independent match commissioner could see from 50 hours of sutdying all possible camera angles?
Amazed that you can be so definitive, when pretty much everyone elase has agreed that there isn't a shred of evidence. Shame you've swallowed the Blarney.
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theres a big difference between elbowed out of the way and someone nearly dying. and it's true he cpuld have died. the physio said it. so it is a serious thing to have happened whether ppl like it or not. can't quite believe some of the comments re: oh it happens in rugby etc et. now wether or not it was an accident, soemthing went wrong enough for a player to have to be recusitated. come on reasonable ppl. it was frightening to see. if it happened to a scottish player there would be uproar
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Jesus I hope your son doesn't play for Scotland at that size.......
As for ROG - looked like got a nasty bash on the head rather than being throttled.
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I was at the match on Saturday,and thoroughly enjoyed it.A close match that went right to the wire.As regards the ROG issue,most importantly he is fine.Some commentators would do well to remember that many of the players,from both sides,played together as ONE team on the Lions tour.There are more important issues than the 6N.EOS comments are consistent with a coach concerned for the health of his player.As an ex rugby player,we've all been trapped in a ruck,it's not pleasant,and have on occasion been crushed,and unable to confirm whether it was an opposition or own player,and whether it was intentional or not.I think the furor around this incident was borne out of concern,and EOS comments were unhelpful,but in the cold light of day,common sense has prevailed,and no citing has arisen.We will never know whether it was an Irish or Scottish arm/hand.Good luck to all the teams this weekend,and may one of them win teh World Cup!
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I fear George (211) has the core of the issue here- acceptable/unacceptable violence is an essentially subjective concept usually viewed through deeply tinted glasses by supporters and (dare one add?) by media commentators and team officials alike. A lot of Irish fans are moaning about the way the Scotland team tried to "get in O'Gara's face"- as if no Irish side ever targeted a key opposition player or one perceived to have a weakness. Even Jonathan Davies, as one-eyed a Welshman as they come, was quick to suggest before the kick-off in Rome that Italy ought to kick the ball high at Kevin Morgan to "test him out" after his return from a broken jaw. Fair enough too- I'd said exactly the same five minutes earlier. No doubt if they had tried that line of attack and Morgan had been hurt as a consequence Mr Davies would have been singing a rather different song but that's showbusiness.
On the O'Gara incident, I've no idea what happened and neither, in all honesty, can anybody who wasn't in the immediate vicinity of play (which rules out both coaches, for a start). It certainly seemed to be a game played in a sour, ill-tempered spirit which might have been improved if the ref had produced a couple of yellow cards early on. The problem was that the two prime candidates for carding would have been the two captains and refs tend to chicken out on carding big name players of all sides (unless of course they happen to have a reputation).
I tend to agree with those posters who've been rude about the refereeing this Six Nations- though in truth I haven't been much impressed by refereeing standards for quite some time. There's too much inconsistency from game to game over what's going to be allowed and every ref seems to have his own pet phase of the game which he obsesses about. Sides will get penalised for highly technical offences in the line-out by a ref who seems quite indifferent to notions of offside in the ruck, for instance.
As far as the nominal subject of the blog goes, my concern is the amount of lowish level nasties going on- the propensity to swing arms and lead with the elbow in the tackle (the Horgan clattering of Strettle at Croke Park was a very visible example but hardly unusual), the "marginally late" tackle, the routine boring and barging of players chasing a kick. This is beginning to lead to football style "diving" designed to catch the ref's eye (de Marigny's "sack of spuds" act in the second half of the Italy-Wales game after he'd put up a speculative punt is a good example, though again hardly unique). None of this is exactly violence but all too often it can be the trigger to violence.
Rugby needs to watch its act. In many ways it's boxing for the middle classes (I'm talking essentially of the British situation here.....), with a similar emphasis on aggressive masculinity- a mode of behaviour very much at a discount at the moment. My guess is that it would only take one very high profile death or serious injury on the fields of play and there would be a noisy outcry that the game was fundamentally incompatible with the values of a civilised society. With a UK medical profession which is becoming ever more dominated by women and members of ethnic minorities with no rugby playing traditions the old assumption that the medics would always comes down in favour of the game is increasingly open to question.
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On the ROG incident and none of the Irish players looking for revenge on the Scot player in question, which is given as proof by some scottish "supporters" that nothing happen. If you look at the footage of the end of the game the Irish players near ROG had stopped playing before the ref blew the final whistle in order to summon help for ROG, THAT WAS THEIR FIRST CONCERN, there was no celebration when the whistle went only concern.
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During a rugby match every player could be prosecuted for what happens on a rugby pitch if it wasnt a game but innocent until proven guilty and the fact that the SRU has had its name dragged through the mud perhaps a nice libel case agaisnt mssrs O Sulivan and the IRFU would sort them out.
Sorcha I was there and have watched it and to be honest it could have been either Hines or the irish prob that caused the damage , i think more likly the prop as Hines was facing the wrong way.
I really do think the irish gonig on about someone owning up and taking the "weveryone wants to kill us " attitude is typical small country mentality. I talk to real fans and not one of them has accused the scots the same way you have sorcha. You have no idea what your talking about and like EOS should shut up and get your facts right.
Fianlly stating the police did FA, I persume you would also like to see BOD, and Horgan up for assault or is it only assault when its not an Irish player getting hit ?
No dount your first rugby match was when bod got spear tackled and your next was Saturday at Murrayfield
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right mark eos used the strangulation of rog to distract from bod. how paranoid is that statement? plus why are people so convinced nothing happened. if it was a scottish player, there would have been mayhem. also ppl are just concerned as it's not a very nice sight to see a player having to be helped to breath and that kind of thing doesnt just happen as a result of a ruck.
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Kate Brown - 226
How do you know this to be fact?
It is bad enough that people are ignoring the principle of innocence until guilt is proven, but we haven't even ascertained that an offence has been committed!
I've had arms, legs, boots and elbows across my throat in the middle of rucks and I'm sure my limbs have been similarly placed on other players (including my team-mates). I've never held the belief that it was deliberate - indeed the chances of an players knowing exactly where their limbs are within a ruck are often pretty slim.
I coach a youth team and I regularly hear players make accusations about punching, kicking and head butting. Nine out of ten times, the claims are exaggerated and players eventually admit that what was described as a headbut on the field was a simple 50/50 clash of heads.
I learnt long ago never to take the word of players, on incidents I haven't seen first hand, as gospel. Players, even professional ones, get excited in the middle of games and claim all kinds of injustices - look at the number of players who become animated as they dispute refereeing decisions on high tackles or knock-ons. I have no doubt that players believe they are right at the time even though the video evidence will prove them wrong.
My point is that EOS should have taken time-out before making the claim. If the Irish players who witnessed the incident stuck to their story then the police should have been invited to investigate the matter.
It is easy to get caught up in the moment and say things you later regret - a national coach should be above this. Either identify the alleged culprit or apologise.
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So Kate no. 227 looking at pictures in the Independent and on replays you are able to conclude with certainty there was a malicious act in contradiction to the conclusions of the citing officer with more detailed technology and material at his disposal?
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Can anyone tell me why Patterson was not cited for a late blindside tackle on a held ROG or why the Scottish No 17 was not cited for a blatent unprovoked punch on DOC?
All this talk of Scottish angels beggars belief. Incidents like the above happen all the time and the Irish have been guilty of similar in the past. But please spare us the tripe of Scottish players would do no such thing!
On the ROG incident, I've just seen a super slo mo replay of the aftermath. Couldnt make out the scottish player but looks like a lock or back row forward is the last to get to his feet from the ruck (Hayes stays down to attend to ROG). He gets up from around ROG's head. This player never takes his eyes off ROG as he steps back. This by no means shows that he is either guilty or innocent but may be the basis for the accusations and in todays world where libel cases seem more common than any other,no one is going to name names unless they have concrete proof.
While I would hate to think ther was anything deliberate in what happened, (and something obviously happened) I'm sure the offending player would, if it were accidental hold his hand up and say so. I would just hope that we never see a situation like this again.
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#59.
Good spot Cillian,
However, doesn't it prove that no player would risk actually killing another player as in ROG incident (and expect to get away with it)? - since they could NOT guarantee that they would not be televised...
and at the end of a match?
EOS owes an apology - he knows he does, why doesn't he just do the 'honourable thing'?
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I didnt have time to read all 235 posts, but I really doubt that a scottish player was on the ground choking ROG.
Theres endless possibilities as to what happened to him, a players leg or arm could have been across his neck, or his head could have been pushed forward into his chest which can block air circulation. Or he simply couldnt breate with the weight of bodies laying on him.
Im quite surprised by Eddies reaction, as he doesnt come across as irrational. Well done to John Hayes for his quick thinking and making sure that ROG was ok.
I think cinical violence such as stamping on limbs and bodies that arent blocking the ball, or late hits, should be severely punished. Its one thing to injure your opponent in possesion with a fair but hard tackle.
But to punch, kick stamp or tackle them late when vunerable(ie after kicking, passing or catching) can be a deliberate way of taking influential players out of a game. This destroys any sport where its allowed. Its cheating and should be punished.
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Can a Scottish fan tell me what will happen if someone in the Irish camp does name a name in the ROG incident what the Scottish reaction will be.
More than likely they will dig in and ask the Ireland camp to prove it, threatening libel action if they cannot.
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Anybody see todays Herald?
So, what do the Irish (and the other lot) say now?
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someone made a comment about irish teams and the whole o driscoll umaga incident! yes, brian o driscoll could be a quadraplegic by now had that infamous spear tackle gone horribly wrong. also that was on the lions tour and british players were horrified at what happened and not just the irish. they at least knew that that kind of behavious is unacceptable even if the kiwis didnt. and calling that incident which was clearly caught on camera hoo haa? that's nonsense. the difference in this case is that nothing was proven so we'll have to move on and accept it. ronan thankfully was alright anyway and he said nothing so it should be left at that.
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#192.
Reasonable concern for a player is saying, "Ronan took a knockl at he end of the game and was unconcious" accusing another team of attempted murder is "Someone throttled Ronan and he went blue"
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Wales & Ireland have some excellent Holiday Camps for us Brits to visit. Having said that I prefer Butlins anytime.
In my book Ireland are guilty until proven innocent of bringing the game into disrepute.
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i reckon maybe all ruby players should carry guns now
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i just want the scots to clear up the confusion so we can stop thinking something bad happened if it didnt.stewart you can stop attacking me personally. and is it really so bad to be concerned about a danger to a player? ya maybe eos did speak out prematurely but only because no scot was going to say anything. i actually love rugby and no the bod spear tackle wasnt my first match. most irish fans are well able to be beaten if the opposition is decent. what did horgan do exactly? and no i dont think ill ever be at murrayfield as i want to go somewhere where the opposing team wont be booed every time they get a penalty.
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I once had a finger put in my eye at the bottom of a ruck. It was in October 2004 in Manchester.
Unfortunately, I didn't see who it was as he would have received a rucking and a half the next time he was caught on the wrong side.
If EOS would like to make a public allegation against all rugby players playing in the Manchester area in October 2004, without any evidence then it would be much appreciated. He would appear to be keen on allegations and low on evidence. Someone give the man some crayons and a Tweenies DVD to watch.
In the defence of the Ireland players they have not made an issue of it and I should imagine that they are quite embarrassed that their big sister (EOS) has decided to turn up crying at the school gates. They are big enough to look after themselves.
For gods sake our captain was lamped into concussion off the ball in a league match and has he been crying in the press?? No. Now thats dirty play.
If you play international rugby against machines of men you will get hurt eventually, that is a fact!!
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All I would say before we get carried away completely!!!(Too late) as much as no one wants to own up or take the blame.
1) He did not choke himself out
2) It certainly wasn鈥檛 an Irish player
So let鈥檚 be clear someone did in fact choke him out? So who wants to have the fortitude of past players and own up? There is that deafening silence again鈥︹..
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Okay to summarise:
1) If it was deliberate, find the culprit and hang him out to dry by his testicles.
2) If was accidental, apologies all round and lets move on.
3) If EOS had some sort of ill-advised mindgames going on, subject him to similar fate to point 1
4) "Deliberate" violence has no place in rugby.
5) Lets move on and support the three underdogs this weekend!
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Trevor(THUG) Brennan-
So he retires before he can condemn himself in a rugby hearing......
Well Trevor Brennan did exactly as I thought he would and took the cowards way out. He is a thug a bully and I sincerely hope, soon to be criminal convicted of assault.
For not matter what he says he heard (and no else did) he, and importantly NO other man should be allowed to get away with assault and grievous bodily harm on a spectator at an event because he wants to vent his ire /rage /idiocy and he thinks he can.
It was not the supporter鈥檚 fault that Brennan cannot get a game anymore and that he may have had to listen to some stick/banter in his pub or at the game.
I still maintain that he has NO support or evidence for his actions, him saying he heard something and hundreds sat around the supporter saying the man he attacked said nothing (including one of the 成人快手 correspondences) does not give him the right to wade into someone unprovoked and assault him as he did. I can only hope the French authorities see him for the thug he is and fine him heavily and that the supporter then brings a successful claim against this moron.
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eos is right to say what his players tell him
we have great respect for scottish players...and thier rugby
but something did happen
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Reply to post 238
Very adult, can see that you have thought about your arguement long and hard!
Debating something with you must be a real eye opener!
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#59, thanks for the video clip of the punch to DOC by the Scottish prop.
Try watching it again in slow motion as it winds on after the initial punch is shown. This is from the other angle. Big DOC has a huge handful of Chuncks shirt and is preventing him tackling ROG. He gets what he deserves. Chunk, however much provoked, should not have done what he did and should have been cited and banned.
Meanwhile keep watching in slow mo 'till the end of the clip, big John flops on ROG from an offside position and ROG's neck is twisted into the ground. It stops there but we all know that the rest of the Irish pack pile in on top on the ruck (where Dennis Leamy sinks a lovely right hook into the ribs of the Scottish player trying to win the ball) and apply who knows what sort of pressure onto ROGs neck.
Seems an unfortunate accident to ROG.
However, what is interesting is that watching every breakdown in slow motion from all kinds of angles will unearth all sorts of nasty work going on and I really don't think we should go there.
Suffice to say it's usually all forgotten by the players in the bar afterwards, and if the players can forgive and forget, then it has nothing to do with the PC Brigade and the social worker do-gooders who don't and will never understand what rugby is all about.
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Its really not that difficult to see from the video that someting is happening to ROG on floor
his legs are kicking out and by the time the ruck moves to its second phase he has stopped moving..
pause the footage and move it on slowly...
1230 to 1238 ROG legs are kicking out as if in distress
from 1238.4 his legs have stopped completely and all the irish players are concentrating on the ball as its about to be moved to the second phase
THERE IS CLEARLY at least one SCOTTISH PLAYER BY ROG...but there are actually 2 scotish players on the ground with him.
1242 the first scotish player starts to rise from beside ROG
1244 the second scottish player rises from beside ROG
1246 HAYES spots ROG in distress and puts him in the recovery position
Now whatever happened could have been an accident but to say nothing happened and that no scottish player was near him is complete rubbish.
would like to hear those 2 scottish players version of what happened to ROG.
they should be able to say my arm my leg whatever got trapped and i couldnt move from blocking his airway if it was an accident or say that an Irish player was on him etc
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Message - 17 Conor
I stand by what I say. I have watched the footage again. And the angle from behind (O'Gara running toward camera) clearly shows O'Gara getting bundled down to the floor with his head twisting to one side.
If you add to that it looks like an IRISH player's legs over his head, and if he was winded when he was hit in the tackle, it's does make a fairly reasonable level of assumption. And, okay, it IS an assumption, but one based on the best evidence available.
So unless O'Sullivan wants to come out and name the person responsible (assuming the Irish players who "saw" it chose to say who was responsible) then he should shut up an apologise.
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slowmotion of the ROG incident
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when is it okay to stand on an opposition player? Is it ever ok to stand on a player?
Is this a blog actually worthy of our license fee?
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i say it was deliberate - i could see one of the scottish subs have his habd on o gara's back and the other was obviously choking him at the time- you could see the way the scottish player got back to defend looking quite guilty
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look at the clip. the two scots look as guilty as sin. the man on the extreme looks at hines and tho he is worried by it. maybe we should all complain to teh police and get it investigated
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to desert vet....man, you are a joke. pulling a man's shirt equates with a punch? my left eye is still screwd from a rugby 'accident', i didnt complain, i got my revenge later. so, please dont call me and those who think this choking thing is bad do-goodies or PC. hines picked on a wee guy at the bottom of a ruck, i dont think he would have done that to someone equal his size or someone like tyson. in fact the cowardly scot if faced by tyson would prob wee his white shorts. it was unacceptable and cowardly. the flower of scotland should be replaced with something more suitable....maybe something by s club 7. realy hope you dont get a wooden spoon
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Thanke for the video. Its clear that Scotland no. 21 got him.
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"Scotland the brave" well that's laugh, more like Scotland the coward!
Hope the two sides meet in the QF of the WC, then we'll trounce the cowards,and make it 7 or so wins on the trot against them haha.
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why can't we focus on more important questions - for example, why do the Irish continually fail to live up to their billing (particularly in their own eyes)?; why do the Welsh continually plummet to new depths of stupidity?; why will the celtic nations never win the world cup? Now thats debate...
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I thought this debate had finished with the often heard claim " It wasnae me mammy, it wis a big boy and he ran away" Then trying to be fair and balanced I considered that perhaps Ronan had throttled himself or more likely a jealous team mate had committed the crime.
Fortunately David Sole came along with the sharp observation that Eddie O`Sullivan was trying to conceal the fact that Ronan was concussed and faced a possible three weeks rest and he (Eddie) needed a diversion. Yes of course a second rate manager like Eddie would play a concussed world class player!! You should know better than that David The FSA is looking for recruits like you.
In the absence of video evidence it would have been a mature action if the SRU had simply said that in the absence of video evidence they would endeavour to establish if an illegal act had occurred and who was the culprit.Had they declared that no evidence had been uncovered the whole thing would have died an amicabe death. It is supposed to be about sport guys!!
Rugby is not my main sporting interest and I thought we came up with some crazy actions and inactions but watching this particular debate I think we can hold our heads up high. Maybe a case of too many body punches to the head in the union world
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276 doreilly
Eh!!! Andy Henderson (playing 21)is on the other side of the ruck tackling the Irish 16. This is as bad as the guys trying to blame Southwell who wasn't even on the field.
This sort of sums it all up - people are desperate to see what they want to see. Let's find a villan!
You can see Hines getting up from the ground after at least 2 Irish players have come off him - that's 3 fairly hefty blokes on top of O'Gara. You could easily black out with that sort of pressure on your chest.
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The video shows precisely nothing, a load of blokes falling on top of a bloke who was smashed in a legal tackle.
Stop going on about it, EOS was out of order, ROG is a man and will live to fight another day.
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I have watched the slow mo at 272 here. Would all those who are saying that Eddie O's needs to apologise ask first for an explanation from the Scots guys seen near Ronan what happened?
A rugby player could have died on the pitch and if something can be done to prevent it happening again then get it sorted.
As for citing commisioners- they are typical of referees at the minute- too inconsistent!
The Bristol guy who landed a punch on Vickery gets 3 weeks. Bergamasco gets 4?
Others get nothing!
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Having watched the video on a number of occasions I cannot understand how anyone can still be accusing either Hines or Ford or choking ROG. If anything ROG's head was caught between Hines's legs but Hines is then trapped in by a number of Irish players. You can see that Hines's knee is on the ground and looks perfectly normal, he is clearly not looking at ROGs head. Ford goes in to try and win the ball and you can see him trying to get the ball but then he is pushed to side. If anything it's the pressure from the Irish players pushing Hines lower body onto ROG's head. I do think the evidence is conclusive that nothing happened and it was just an unfortunate acident.
The sooner EOS comes out and admits that it was rubbish the better. There are always nasty things that go on in contact situations and people apply pressure to certain body parts in order to cause pain but I can see no evidence of this here and even if there was, the acccusation that EOS made is very serious and it cannot just be forgotten about.
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Eddie O'Sullivan, with his unfounded accusations has turned all of Scotland against the Irish team in the 6 Nations this year. As others have pointed out, there is no video evidence and there were no angry Irish players at the final whistle. That tells you all you need to know about the validity of O'Sullivan's bleatings.
I never thought I'd prefer France or England to beat Ireland to the championship, but that's what I want to happen this weekend. O'Sullivan should take a long hard look at himself and be man enough to apologise for his slur against the Scottish team. I doubt if has enough maturity to do so. Shame on him.
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Tom S, you are an idiot. Talking about the irish slandering each other. You ever been to Glasgow?
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How do you spell Allan Jacobsen
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EOS clearly believes what he says, but what if he's wrong. I have on more than 1 occasion been trapped at the bottom of a ruck or collapsed maul unable to breathe for short periods. EOS has accused an un-named scottish player of attempted murder (lets not be mealy mouthed)and admitted that he expected there to be no evidence, no citing and no action. It seems unarguable that he has defamed all scottish players involved in the incident.
Also, why have the appropriate police force not instigated enquiries into an alleged attempted murder?
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in response to 284......i never thought id want Scotland to get the wooden spoon, but we are in new times. i think a good beating in France will seal it....hope Hines and that other average player who seemed to be involved in the alleged choking don't end at the bottom of any rucks...i mean apparently players get choked without anyone touching them these days!
word of advice, get better players!
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well it doesnt take much for the scots to turn on other teams. england have gotten it from the cots long enough and now it's our turn. dont worry i never support scotland in any match as i find the supporters to be childish and ignorant and i've been proved right in this situation. all i'm praying for this weekend is the frecnh not to put too many tires past you and hope no one else is choked at that match!it's pathetic the abuse the irish have gotten from the scots just becuase we've expressed concern about a possible moment where someone could have died. that's a fact!
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From the Irish Independent:
Denis Leamy added: "I could say I saw bits and pieces but it was nothing definite. I wouldn't really like to comment on exactly what I saw. It wasn't definitive. I saw Ronan struggling and that's all I can say."
Not exactly a ringing endorsement is it? And is this one of the eyewitnesses on whose evidence Mr O'S in basing his allegation?
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A good question. From an ex player and current support point of view the main thing you need is consistency. Tempers boil over and in the heat of the moment punches get thrown. That's what the the sin bin is for - to cool off. What I have great difficulty with are the sly, cynical infringements aimed at disabling opponents. Rugby is tough enough without the cowardly acts of violence on an opponent who is either unable to defend themself or caught unawares. People who commit malicious acts like this are cowards and should be branded as such, not the made the local hero. The odd fight when tempers boil over, rucking out of opponents and retaliation are understandable, unavoidable and defendable but in some cases cynical, premediated acts of violence result in players being seriously injured, results are afffected and sometimes careers are ended prematurely. Players take responsibility for this but so do referees. Weak and inconsistent referee decisions, failures from touch judges and weak punishment after citing all bread a culture of "getting away with it". In cases such as this the 4th official should be free to bring unseen incidents to the immediate attention of the ref and the player should be off the park, as a minimum. Then the player is seen as a vilain by his own side as well as the opposition and the thousands of refs in the stands. At the high level of televised rugby this is bad enough but how many young, talented players leave the game early as a result of what can only be described as no more than school yard bullying by older, slower, less talented so called "enforcers". Play Hard but don't by a cynical coward.
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Everyone who plays a contact sport knows what just hurts and what is dangerous. Something dangerous happened to RO'G. Ireland haven't made a huge thing about it but it does bear some analysis to see what might have happened - then alert referees to look for it and if it (whatever it might be) happened to be accidental still make it a technical offence.
What was plainly visible to everyone except the match officials was Paterson's earlier swipe at RO'G. There should be official censure (not punishment but a warning) of that - Paterson was the Scottish captain and it was wholly unnecessary and not a great advertisement for the sport.
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Illegal violence is not acceptable in any part of a rugby match. It just looks petty and bad sportmanship. watch the clip of Josh Lewsey on youtube for a demonstration of how to use legal violence. Who comes out more of a man in this?!
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cant be arsed arguing any more. obvioudly the scots will never speak up so there's no point in carrying on. all ill say is good luck in dublin next year scotland!
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Intent is the key. Intent is impossible to prove conclusively. All sports, and particularly those that are as physically dangerous as rugby, absolutely depend on a bond of trust between players. This is the spirit of the great game of rugby football. It is the basis upon which everyone takes to the field knowing that even when we are strangers to each other we are relatively safe from intentional injury. Accidents can and always will occur. All rugby training - coaching at all levels should begin and end with this. The art of the game is to exert your team will over the other guys, not damage their bodies through cheating. Once someone's neck is broken or they dies from brain damage it is too late. The moment anyone claims that any level of intention to damage someone else through injury is in any way acceptable they diminish this bond of trust. There is no room for people without conscience in this game. Then we share the good intent and train out the bad as you would expect in any martial art.
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274
"the two scots look as guilty as sin."
That clinches it then
Sheesh!
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No. 285, I'm from Glasgow originally, what's your point U Tube ...... talking of which -
Had a look at video.
Seconds to go in a 1 point match, the focus of every player involved is the ball and the match, every single player is focused on ball and his positioning - as ball moves to side they start to re-group and re-position, the players over ball get up one by one, 2 Scots and 1 Irish are last up - the 2 Scots on the way up glance at ROG and then try to concentrate on game, last Irish up realises there is a problem and puts him in recovery position, 2 Scots now realise a problem and stand looking concerned, now ignore game, other players realise a problem and the game becomes unimportant - sorry, your Honour, attempted murder - I just can't see it.
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sorcha you are very silly. People can't offer evidence to prove nothing happened. By virtue of the fact nothing happened there is no evidence!
The video slow motion shows nothing of importance whatsoever. Except perhps that if the Irish players had made an effort to stay on their feet then the ruck wouldn't have been such a mess.
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288 &289
Sorry you feel that way
Hadden is incorrect to say that Ronan's blue face is due to the paint on the pitch- he was clearly hypoxic.
O'Sullivan was right to be upset and scared about the state of him at the end of the match, as was everyone else.
IF it was a deliberate act then the culprit should be hung out to dry
There is no evidence to support this point of view in the public domain at least.
Mr O'Sullivan is relying on hearsay- let's hear from those who told him the story surely they are honourable fellas too.
The Scot whose name has been whispered all about the place (Hines) has given his side to the press.
And there are plenty ways to be rendered hypoxic apart from DELIBERATE strangulation- it's my job to know that.
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274. I think it's part of the natural Scottish condition to look guilty as sin.
294. Goodness; corkonian you're hard aren't you?!
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re response 284
never gone for this celtic cousin crap
always like to see England beat Scotland and Wales.
whats with all the booing of opposition kicks etc....pathetic
heres a question are the scottish fans the least sporting of the all 6 nations ?
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re 297
if "nothing" happened why did ROG need to be put in the recovery position by hayes
are you saying you are so blind you cant see Rog legs kicking out in distress and then completely stop moving after about 8 seconds
Something happened to him obviously
stop denying it ffs
It could well have been an accident but something did happen to him.
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#301 liamhawk
No the English fans are the least sporting, followed by the French.
The amount of noise for French kicks at Twickenham on Sunday was pretty disgraceful.
Murrayfield is catching you up though, largely due to schoolkids who haven't been told better.
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Eddie O'Sullivan, with his unfounded accusations has turned all of Scotland against the Irish team in the 6 Nations this year.
Scotland, with their nasty thugishness have turned all of Ireland against the Scottish team this year.
If we didn't need you to perform in the France game we'd love to see you trounced. As it is, we'll hope for the draw.
there were no angry Irish players at the final whistle.
No, there were very worried Irish players at the final whistle, clearing an unbreathing teammates airway, putting him into recovery position, and signalling for medical staff.
Whatever else comes of this (and not much will), we will not forget the viciousness of Scotland.
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may i remind the scottish fans that no one called the scottish team dirty and no one said that they are normally violent. maybe it's time for this discusion to end seeing as no one agrees on anything. i apologise for some of my comments as they were a bit inflammatory at times. however i would expect not be called silly, stupid, idiotic or accused of knowing nothing about rugby!
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"it could well have been an accident but something did happen to him"
No argument there
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My last word on this, and I appreciate all the comments.
I find it really unsatisfactory that we can't find out the truth of the O'Gara incident.
If a Scotsman did try to throttle him it is a national disgrace and the Irish should be outraged.
If it didn't happen, but Irish players and management think it happened, then I actually understand their feelings, but have to say that it would mean that they are mistaken.
This is one of those incidents where conclusive video evidence is really called for but sadly isn't forthcoming.
As for other violence? Frankly, the older I get the more I hate any kind of violence
JB
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the scots who come to dublin next year will see that the irish dont boo and hiss whenever opposition take a penalty or a conversion. in fact we are a good respectful crowd. that's what i meant by that earlier comment.
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Is that a thinly veiled threat No 294 Corkonian? What are you suggesting will happen to us in Dublin? and for your information we have spoken about the incident.... amid all of the inuendo Nathan Hines has offered his version of events or are you suggesting he is a liar?
Back on the subject of the blog....the spectacle of big collisions and physical confrontation makes international rugby the spectacle that it is and I also believe that the international game is cleaner now than it has ever been.
Everyone has their own favourite big hits... here's my top 3
1. J White on Flannery Dublin 2006.
2. N Hines on O'Gara Edinburgh 2007
3. T. Umaga / K Mealamu on O'Driscoll Christchurch 2005.
FORZA ITALIA
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laimhawk - are you one of sorcha alter egos , you deffinetly seem to be on the same planet as EOD and sorcha.
No one is denying that ROG was injured at the bottom of the ruck and injured badly BUT I think were more annoyed with the irish jumping on the bandwagon that we tried to kill an oppostion player when your loud mouth coach couldnt keep his trap shut until he had evidence. After watching the slow mo I really do think that it was Hayes leg or arms that fell on top of gara and caused him to pass out BUT it could have been Hines knee but either way I dount there wqas anything malicious but I do think EOS should be either cited for bringing game into disrepute or made to apologise. Its a shame he didnt name Hines because the SRU and no dount Hines would have been very happy for the cash winfall a sueing of Sullivan and IRFU would have brought
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Its a shame ROG doesnt come out and say either he thought he was but cant provit it or he doesnt think it hppened but then EOS and Ireland would have to eat humble pie and ive never met an Irishman that likes to admit he was wrong.
The search continues
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JC36,
Firstly, you are right to note that there are plenty of ways to be rendered hypoxic apart from deliberate strangulation.
And for the most part, I believe the Irish public - at least those who do not take the word of the media as gospel 鈥 are still of the 鈥業nnocent until proven guilty鈥 credo, though you may be forgiven for thinking otherwise having read some of the above comments.
O鈥橲ullivan WAS relying on hear鈥檚ay, but it鈥檚 important to recall the circumstances under which he disclosed his concerns to the IRISH media:
a) The final whistle is blown and in the middle of a very subdued atmosphere, Ronan O鈥橤ara has been rolled into the recovery position, obviously choking and struggling on the ground, surrounded by medics and his own players.
b) O鈥橲ullivan is informed by his own players that they had witnessed Ronan O鈥橤ara being choked on the ground.
Now, you are right to take up issue with any comments above that suggest the evidence is cast-iron; we/they were not on the pitch. Those who spoke to O鈥橲ullivan on the incident, however, were on the pitch, and were at that break-down.
In response to your suggestion that those players who had spoken to EOS should come forward, I would say this: one thing I have really come to appreciate about rugby, particularly in recent years, is that the players have limited freedom to speak out of turn; be that to the referee or the media. This is in direct contrast to footballers who are free, and often very willing, to offer their opinions on any event 鈥 be that on or off the pitch. The onus to talk about such delicate issues should only be placed on the Management, the players have no right to comment at all.
EOS came forward and spoke to the IRISH press (subsequently others took up the story) and answered their questions admirably. It was the PRESS that developed the story.
My own personal feeling is that we will never really know what happened. But I will say this: For as long as I have been playing and watching rugby, I have never fallen victim to hypoxia - nor have I ever seen anybody else fall victim to hypoxia - from pressure exerted in a rook, and I have played against and with some very big packs. Sure, I have been winded, but Hypoxic? Thankfully, no.
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At the end of the day you cannot prove a negative which is why in this country people must be proved guilty by an accuser and not have to prove themselves innocent. It was a very tense end to a game in which passions were running high and i would err towards the school of thought that believes that if the Irish boys had seen someone attempting to murder one of their team then all hell would have broken loose with fists flying everywhere. As it happens i think that in the confusion and panic at the end of the game there was a mixture of misunderstanding and the natural kneejerk reaction of looking for someone to blame (Thus EOS making what i consider to be an irresponsible and misjudged public statement). The most likely scenario for me is that O'Gara was trapped at the bottom of this ruck with something accidentally pressing on his throat and, to be honest, this is what we are all going to have to accept. Cluedo guesses such as "Hines, in the bottom of the ruck, with his elbow" and even "Southwell, from the stands, with the power of his mind" cannot be proven and thus are unhelpful. We are just going to have to be thankful that O'Gara was has suffered no lasting effects from the accident and hope that this unfortunate event does not have any knock on effects on the future of this fixture which is one of the most enjoyable for me. If it were to be proved that someone had seriously meant harm to O'Gara (Which i very much doubt) then they should be banned for life.
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Sorcha,
your comments were inflammatory EVERY time and you got the backlash your initial comments deserved. The discussion can go on just hold back on the conspiracy theories!
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A number of conspiracy theorists have stated that the Scots 'look guilty' in the aftermath of the event....the argument has just been taken from the ridiculous to the pathetic. Not one Scots player glances anywhere other than the ball - maybe you can Irish fans can now spot 'well concealed guilt' too. Get a grip.
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none can argue that ireland are probably the most respectful fans around.!england are probably the 2nd nd most respectful. never had any issues with englsih fans. as for the booing at the england game last week that was more than likely the french fans booing the english as the french along with scottish are the worst for booing. a
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Something happened to O'Gara on Sat which we Scot fans don't doubt. However, with no video evidence and nothing to prove what actually happened then all we can do is speculate.
I play rugby & have had people fall on me which caused me to be winded. I've also been grabbed around the head & neck in rucks/mauls etc. O'Gara has recovered & the game is over so let's concentrate on the final wkend.
Post #301 Liamhawk - Stupid question & completely unjustified.
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At the end of the day you cannot prove a negative which is why in this country people must be proved guilty by an accuser and not have to prove themselves innocent. It was a very tense end to a game in which passions were running high and i would err to the side where i believe that if the Irish boys had seen someone attempting to murder one of their team then all hell would have broken loose with fists flying everywhere. As it happens i think that in the confusion and panic at the end of the game there was a mixture of misunderstanding and the natural kneejerk reaction of looking for someone to blame. The most likely scenario is that O'Gara was trapped at the bottom of this ruck with something accidentally pressing on his throat and, to be honest, this is what we are all going to have to accept. Cluedo guesses such as "Hines, in the bottom of the ruck, with his elbow" and even "Southwell, from the stands, with the power of his mind" cannot be proven and thus are unhelpful. We are just going to have to be thankful that O'Gara was has suffered no lasting effects from the accident and that this unfortunate event does not have any knock on effects on the future of this fixture which is one of the most enjoyable for me. If it were to be proved that someone had seriously meant harm to O'Gara (Which i very much doubt) then they should be banned for life.
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broxibear no irish person brought up the o driscoll incident until a scot mentioned it. also if you are scottish then you would have been supporting the lions tour where that incident happened and was widely condemned by many british players including the scots. i dont call nathan hines a liar. where did i write that? also see above comment about dublin! scottish fans reading too much into things! something did happen- stop saying nothing did! it could have been accidental but something obviously happened to warrant o gara being put into recovery position!
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broxibear that last comment really does show up the scottish to be nasty and mean spirited fans. lovely. really gives a great impression of the sort of mindset in scottish rugby. what would the fans say if ronan had actually died? to be honest i couldnt care less if the scots support italy or not. it's pathetic really.
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so your admitting it was nathan hines who tried to choke o gara! glad to see someone finally having to balls to say who it was. i hope you dont come to ireland next year as we dont want mean spirited hecklers like yourself in what is a civilsed city.
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Ladies, ladies, put the handbags way now... You're bickering like English fishwives mun!
I know you are not pure Celts like the Welsh, as you have had your genes hijacked and watered down by hoards of vikings and anglo-saxons through the ages but you are still bound by celtic heritage.
When it comes to the real enemy; the men in Daz whites with red rose embroidery, there is no such thing as unacceptable violence!
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liamhawk and scorcha.
I take it you two have never been to an international weekend? instead of watching it on tv or saying how unfriendly the scottish are, get off your backside and go and see it for real. Too many idiots on here with nothing better to do but make senseless comments. The blog should be kept for sensible people who actually have a slight idea what they are talking about. The ROG incident was unfortunate but an accident nothing more. The media are starting to turn rugby into the same hyped up rivalry as they managed with football and we all know how that is nowadys. Rugby fans dont hate or dislike each other, a decent argument over a pint is as far as it should go. Please dont bring football cynicsm into rugby thats what sets it apart
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Rugby is a very aggressive game but there is no place for wanton violence. As a junior rugby coach it is pretty disturbing to listen to parents talk about their sons not being allowed to play because it is getting to violent. Rugby is tough enough without all the 'afters' going on.
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CAnt believe you say the irish crowd is respectful , booing and hissing is unpleasant but lets be honest , its happening everywhere and with the bad blood thats exsiting because players and mangers cant keep their mounths shut who can blame the fans.
I dont boo or hiss but I did find the air horn every time O Gara went for a kick quite funny.
Kept mistiming it to early or to late.
And no Hines never accepted corkonian , looks like another case of the irish reading to much into something and them being blameless for every bad tackle.
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Three posts in a row Corkonian. Wow, I must have hit the spot.
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absolutely pathetic broxibear. i thought the scottish were supposed to be decent.
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broxibear that was a pretty pathetic blog you wrote. it was petty and small minded. i hope to god that's not a typical scottish fan because i fear for the future if that is.
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"...they should have beaten an Irish team which turned out to be not quite as good as the hype."
Mr. Beattie, please don't fall into the same trap as so many who leave comments on these blogs. If you want a genuine, objective point of view of where Irish rugby is don't turn to the back pages of our papers or refer to the "Ireland for the WC" comments posted by all those "rugby fans" who appear out of the woodwork when major championships come along. They are made by people who are as fickle as their points are uneducated.
We have a good side, our best squad for a long time, simple as that.
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Dave
Thanks
There are too many ifs and buts about the whole sorry business. It's sad that in some of the posters here it would appear that mud sticks and they are not willing to conceive of an alternative explanation for what happened, and as you can never prove a negative that is the way things will stay.
Sad really if it spoils the atmosphere of future internationals- could always get a lumber at an Irish rugby weekend in Edinburgh.
I'm glad you have never suffered a similar episode, but it can happen through crushing alone- Hillsborough a case in point- and an unconscious patient may easily obstruct his own airway with his tongue.
I'm not sure why you emphasised that it was the Irish press he spoke to- do you think he thought we wouldn't notice?
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Post 321 Owain..I'm afraid you're just revealing the depths of your ignorance.
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broxibear-well the next time a scottish player is in danger of losing his life lets all just angrily shoot our mouths off at the scottish team and deny anything had happned. and also lets bring up our 3 favourite moments when scottish players were injured badly! ya because it's not vindicative or petty at all!
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Stewart at 324:
"I did find the air horn every time O Gara went for a kick quite funny."
Broxibear at 325:
"Three posts in a row Corkonian. Wow, I must have hit the spot."
It's good to see we have some serious intellectual heavyweights in here today...
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I find it hilarious that these Irish rugby fans (?) are banging on saying a scots player must be guilty because they have not protested their innocence, perhaps they should all go on hunger strike....would that do.
Also;
1. Why did no Irish players react at the time, or at full time.
2. What did EOS actually see, nada.
3. Who is the Irish player that told EOS and why did not he react...wee timorous beastie ??
Hey and kets not forget Trevor Brennan...fine example.
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As a Scotsman the main thing I'm happy about is that ROG is OK. It would have been a tragedy had anything serious happened to him.
Looking at the video it seems that he's been caught in a pile up and not been able to breathe. It's happened to me before and it's a scary thing, believe me.
However, what's scarier is the unfounded hate and aggression this incident has provoked. It's ugly and embarrassing to both Scots and Irish alike.
Grow up people. It's an accident that's been blown out of proportion in the heat of the moment and things have been said that perhaps shouldn't have as a result. The main thing - thank God - is that ROG is OK.
Let's move on please.
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Broxibear you are pathetic, your comments are exactly the sort that start fights at football matches and, whilst I'm not sure how much offence was intended, it has no place in this forum.
His comments do however highlight an area that I haven't seen covered in this blog related to the "attention" that key players receive in games beyond that which is reasonable.
BOD in the last Lions tour is one example, O'Gara on Saturday (although I'm not referring to the strangling incident which I think was nonsense). JW all the time, and Jonah Lomu in the 95WC final.
Violence is part of the game and players train to be able to give it and receive it in equal measure.
A problem does exist though when players are hit "off-guard" normally off the ball late, early or just behind the ref.
Some of the injuries sustained are career (and sometimes life) threatening and more should be done to stop it. Banning perpetrators is the only way and for longer than the usual couple of weeks wrist slap that seems the norm. Perhaps for the same length of time that their victim is sidelined through injury (possibly hastening the retirement of Umaga).
The worst culprits seem to be South Africa, in 1992 I was convinced that the purpose of their visit was to put as much of the England first team out of long term action as possible and the result was irrelevant. They have improved since then, but I still feel that there is a cynical streak and that they and the ABs will happily cause deliberate injury in the pursuit of advantage.
I have seen a lot of comment about Danny Grewcock who I still think is one of the best locks in the world. Hard man - yes, never steps back, his problem is that he tends to finish trouble rather than start it. Remember Martin Johnson's reputation.
Remember Martin
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#25 could you please enlighten me as to how Hugo Southwell managed to strangle O'Gara when he left the field injured well before the incident took place?! O'Gara suffered a concussion on Saturday and the whole Attempted murder by a Scottish player fiasco is a big smokescreen to ensure that he avoids having to sit the final match out this weekend. Ireland are quick off the mark to throw their handbags and fists around on the pitch belive me if ROG had been attacked and his teammates had witnessed it fists would have flown!
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I think that some violence is acceptable after all it is a contact sport isn't it but choking someone shouldn't be tolorated at all because the other player can' do any thing to stick up for himself.
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Sorcha and Corkonian and the rest of my fellow Irish people, do you know Forza Italia is fascist salute? Ever hear of sectarianism. Stop responding to goading.. ..... The verdict is in, there is no proof, no denial and no outright accusation of guilt for any individual. NEXT!
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333 iain what does trvor brennan have to do with anything? anyway seen enough rubbish from scottish fans not to take any notice of them anymore.
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TAXI FOR SCOTLAND!!!!!!! Listen, that's what happens when u get a professionally run side like Ireland playin against a "pub team like the Scots" what they the Scots lack in talent & class they make up with sly, underhand acts of thuggery on the pitch, we shouldn't be surprised.
And just look how classy their fans are, some of whom contribute to this debate, booing the oppositions penalties all the time, ur pathetic, especially u broxibear or POXYBEAR, what ever ur name is.
Argentina should replace u in the 6N, they're afar superior side plus they have style which yous clearly lack, TAXI FOR SCOTLAND!!!!!!!!!!!
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I do not care who wins the 6N ,as long as Scotland regain what is rightly theirs, THE WOODENSPOON.
Shame on them.
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This is a reply to comment 88. You are free to express your opinions but if you are going to leave a comment on a rugby union blog then have something positive to say about the sport! To many people it is not just a game, it's a living and a way of life. Rugby is important to many poeple and i know many people who would be offended by your opinion. If you want to watch a 'soft' sport then dont watch rugby. It's there for people who appreciate it. Oh and one more thing rugby is a MANS game. Get over yourself!!
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I thought this blog was about what is an acceptable level of violence in rugby but it seems to have lost track in being hijacked by some whingeing Irish who are hacked off because they almost lost to a "pub team" on the weekend. Get over it. Getting back to the matter in question; another one of my favourite rubgy moments was Finlay Calder taking out Jim Staples at Murrayfield in 1991, that was great moment and everyone must have enjoyed Paul Ackford getting helped off the field with his legs buckling under him after getting floored by Fred Mendez. My point is that Rugby has always been tough sport. Take that element away and it loses some of its appeal. Lets face it, it's part of human nature that we enjoy watching violence (gladiators, bullfighting, boxing etc..). Forgot to mention what about the time John Beattie poleaxed Maurice Colclough. That was a peach JB!
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No 341 french fan;
yes shame on us and our history of testicle tweaking and eye gouging. We do not deserve to take the field against such a noble team as the French with their spotless disciplinary record.
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poxibear or boxibear yes rugby is a tough sport but to the extent that 30 players leave the field relatively unscathed. not having to be helped off. stop being so offensive. if you are making comments about rugby being tough fine but stop making offensive comments like the "whinging irish" or my 3 favourite tackles etc. that's just sad.
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JC36
Thanks for the reply
Firstly, don鈥檛 worry; I am not so na茂ve to think that O鈥橲ullivan didn鈥檛 realise that his quotes would eventually end up in the hands of the global media, particularly due to the nature of the accusations!
What I am trying to say is that he is answerable to the IRISH media and IRISH public. If the public at large see one of their players lying choking on the pitch at the end of a match, they will IMMEDIATELY want the reaction from management, and at that point O鈥橲ullivan was acting on information supplied to him by his own players.
We count ourselves lucky here that we have a coach in O鈥橲ullivan who, apart from everything else, is a master of restraint and a politician at all times. So to see him react in the manner he did aroused the suspicions of the media and public. This man is NOT prone to outbursts, so when he does suggest foul-play 鈥 and has done so on the advice of senior players 鈥 the public here will tend to listen.
You know your stuff in relation to the state and causes of Hypoxia, but I am confused about your use of Hillsborough as an example of how crushing can cause Hypoxia. I don鈥檛 want to talk on this subject in depth, but I鈥檓 sure you will agree that the 6/7 man rook formed over O鈥橤ara wasn鈥檛 exactly on the same par as the Hillsborough disaster in terms of the sheer mass of people involved and the already hazardous concrete and steel environment.
Another issue you raised was in relation to how hypoxia could be caused by the airway becoming blocked by the victim鈥檚 tongue. However, as the medical staff already stated, O鈥橤ara had not actually swallowed his tongue.
I think we鈥檒l all agree that O鈥橤ara is not a big guy, but I have never seen him left lying hypoxic on the ground from a rook before. In fact, I honestly can鈥檛 think of it ever happening on a RUGBY pitch before. As I said previously, I have seen players winded, but never hypoxic.
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Post 330 Gay
You will have to explain what you mean by that, I'm sorry, as I must have such a depth of ignorance I can not comprehend unsubstantiated remarks from bona fide ignorami.
You are obviously English!
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Would that be the same pub team that beat the French team who killed your Grand Slam hopes last year by any chance?!
Personally I'd replace Ireland with Tonga or Samoa in the Six Nations since they struggled to beat our pub 15 on Saturday!! I bet their fans would be less bitter than the Irish seem to be. It's ironic that in all my years of going to Murrayfield the only fight I've ever witnessed was between two Irish fans!!! How could we possibly expect you to like us when you can't even stomach each other?!
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Dave, post 345. I have witnessed four seperate cases of players swallowing their tongues in the course of a match - results in players being unable to breath and losing colour. Was each of these cases a result of skullduggery? They all happened in Scottish club matches so I guess it's inevitable each case was premeditated....once again, Irish fans please wise up.
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Mole
Please, the next time you choose to launch into a comment regarding someone else鈥檚 post, at least READ the original post properly and understand it first鈥
I wrote:
鈥溾ypoxia could be caused by the airway becoming blocked by the victim鈥檚 tongue. However, as the medical staff already stated, O鈥橤ara had NOT actually swallowed his tongue.鈥
You wrote:
鈥淚 have witnessed four separate cases of players swallowing their tongues in the course of a match 鈥 results in players being unable to breath and losing colour鈥︹
Do you see my point? I KNOW players can suffer hypoxia from swallowing their own tongue, I have seen it happen in rugby and in football. But I quite clearly stated I have never seen hypoxia as purely a result of pressure exerted under a rook. Do us a favour and relax, read others comments thoroughly, and think about what you are trying to say.
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sb1106 yes scotland beat france last year. well and good. will ye do it this year? probably not. stop making offensive comments. fair enough to make comments relating to the scottish ireland game but the tit for tat rubbish has got to stop. have to say this blog is the only place where these arguements are taking place. the scottish rugby team and the irish rugby team have both moved on. the petty swipes from both sides should stop. and that goes for me too- i have said some petty things too.
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I wish all you moaners would get a life.
Something happened to ROG, IMHO, in all probability he was winded in the tackle and in the esuing ruck had trouble drawing breath with the weight of players FROM BOTH SIDES on top of him.
Noone is denying he was troubled, but something that has been overlooked is the HE DID have blue paint on his forehead prior to the incident, that is not to say that he was turning blue at the incident.
The blog is about what is acceptable in rugby. Simple answer.... NONE.
Yes it is a hard game, yes there are a lot of legal, hard hits. What should be reported and dealt with severly by the authoroties at all times are the cheap shots.
As for the animosity that seems to be building up between the Irish and Scots on here is quite ridiculous and it would seem to me by some people who have never been to a game in their life.
Yes the booing at M/F is getting worse but what do you expect if the kids that are doing and who are brought along are not being told by their parents/teachers/coaches to stop it.
I have thouroughly enjoyed going to all the stadia in the N/H and enjoy the craic with all the other fans from the opposing nations and long may it continue, so to all you whingers get a life and grow up.
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lets finish this now as we are going round and round in circles..im sure in 3 hours time we will be back to viewing the link of the incident again! I really did not think there was such dislike of the scots by the irish, i must have went to a different dublin or met fake irish in edinburgh for a 6 nations match. I hope ireland win on saturday as much now as i did before saturday and i hope we win in paris but at the end of the day WHO CARES? its all about meeting new friends and going to new places surely
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The booing at kickers thing seems to be creeping in here.
As an Englishman I have always felt able to sit back in patronising amusement at the celtic cousins accusing each other of booing louder than them.
I will confess to being a little embarassed therefore at hearing it from the home crowd at Twickenham last weekend.
Then I thought, for all the booing, the French still managed a 100% record and I have never seen a top level kicker (apart from Hodgson) phased by it.
So why shouldn't we encourage a bit of crowd participation, as long at is good humoured.
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294 actually answers the question (remember that?) best IMO. Lewsey fouled Rogers (regrettable but not uncommon - happened to Cusiter last weekend) who reacted badly and took a swing (red card in my book and at least a yellow).
The tackle Lewsey then put in, to my mind, is a great example to all players and exactly how I was taught to play. If you get fouled, get out of the situation ASAP (eg get rid of the hand grabbing your shirt off the ball), the take appropriate action at the next tackle.
My problems with this are not with the concept, but with the need to be able to put in a decent tackle...
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to 344 luke collins, yeah tell that to the many women who play. Nice to see sexism is alive and well. Get over yourself, yourself,.
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Owain Glyndwr (323),
Not sure what this argument between the Irish and Scots has to do with the Welsh or the English. Obviously you just see it as an opportunity to show off the anti-English chip on your shoulder. I can understand that Wales' decline into a laughable rugby nation would rankle, as would Welsh status as a subjugated people, but that gives you no right to intrude into the business of those who were more successful at casting off their colonial status than Wales and your eponymous hero.
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finn agree with most of your sentiments. however a tad unfair to launch an attack on wales as no welsh fan has really said anything offensive on this page. hate seeing anti englsih rubbish myself. the english are great fans i have to say!
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G'day.
Joining this thread very late, but #204: "We are no where near the pathetic petulance and cheating of most top footballers and their coaches" - correctafeckinmundo. And it must not be allowed to get that way. Rugby isn't my game, but it's a beautiful game and O'Slaverin must be confronted for his outrageous slander.
Otherwise, interesting thread. I played several years of decent grade cricket on top of being a social-grade fatboy rugbyhead And, to get back to the point of this thread, as an opening bat, I can assure you all that the very point of about 2 balls in 6 of 130km - 150km bowling is very personally directed violence. Geoff Thompson: "Blood on the wicket? I've no problem with blood on the wicket. This is test cricket. Blood on the wicket is the point."
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Thank you for all your comments. I would like to stop this thread now.
I believe, as I said on my first blog, that the Six Nations should be a coming together of countries in celebration of a wonderful sport.
A long time ago someone drew some lines on our islands, called them borders, and called different bits of the land masses Scotland, Wales, Ireland and England.
Having been born in Borneo I see more similarities among us that differences. Can we remember that incidents in rugby matches are just that, they are not major international incidents?
Thanks
JB
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I accept that the thread is being tied up but I just wanted to put something straight.
Post 359 Finn
The Welsh are far from subjugated. Whilst we are proud to be part of a union of nations (ref: recent surveys and referendums - Owain himself fought on the side of England before the throne was usurped by unrightful heir Henry IV) and have contributed as much in terms of lives of men (war), industry and sporting triumphs to putting the "Great" firmly into Great Britain - we have retained our national identity through our language, hiriaith (a word that has no English translation, culture and national sport, i.e. rugby.
As far as our 'chip on the shoulder', as you so eloquently put it, goes, I feel we bang on less about our common histories of oppressive rule than our celtic cousins... But channel this aggression solely into matters on the rugby field, as civilised gentlemen rather than resorting to anti-social behaviour and the drawing of blood. Thus, both parties (English and Welsh) understand and appreciate this and the harmless banter of fans continues off the field.
Some of my best friends are English!
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The days of Brian Moore et al winding up the French pack with a little "sculldugery" never went amiss. It set the scene for many a little scurmish off the ball, but in turn, allowed even the most physical of players the chance to let off steam without too much come back from the ref.
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As long as there is no deliberate stamping i see no problem with rucking when i played at school and complained about being stood on during a ruck our sports master would tell us 'well you shouldn't have been there should you?' plus the odd punch-up will always happen as its the nature of the game and tempers do flare (we're only human after all)
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From someone who has played for over 25yrs who has been bitten, punched, head butted, stamped on, and gouged and who also had his wrist deliberatly bent backward to the point were i thought it was going to break (he only stopped when i grabbed his nuts HARD!) & this is from a back!! I do not condone any of the above actions, this is UN-acceptable violence.
I do condone however big hits were the ball carrier is tackled hard (The harder the better) with his feet off the floor (lower than his hips) and dumped on his backside and I do condone a gentle reminder to a player who is killing the ball at the back of a ruck.
However as this is now outlawed then I wouldn't be practicing that tactic.
Rugby has moved on from the good (or bad) old days, (depending on your point of view)
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ok i may not be the best player out but i do play in the front row, how else are you able to get a player out who is on your side of the ruck slowing the ball down, the answer give him a good shoeing. i do it all the time first is just a gently tap to let him know you want him to get out of the way and then if he doesnt you ruck him as hard as you can no point in being civilised about it its his problem, as for tackles you hit them as hard as you possibly can, take the legs out and remind them you the better player and throw them to the floor make them feel pain and make them realise they dont want to run at you again rugby is a mental game as well as physical if you can get it into their heads that every time they gave the ball they are going to get nailed thats your job half done they will be scared and it will be easier for you to get the ball back
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number 342 - william j is a muppet. when scotland last played argentina, we lost because the referee decided to re-write the scrumaging rules and cost us the winning penalty. the problem is dan parks and marcus di rollo, someone please stand on them! and for the booing, the scotland fans only started against italy as it had got so bad!
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Personally speaking from a players perspective the odd fisties is part and parcel of the game, it's a full contact sport played with emotion, it is inevitable that scurmishes will break out. unexceptable violence are acts such as deliberate unprovoked attacks i.e, swinging arms to the throat and head, tripping and illegal deliberate stamping at the ruck area, along with tripping these are spiteful and cowardley ways to play the game.
Acceptable violence is catching a bloke doing it and giving him a slap,
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Having seen bergamassco (sp) bully wales last saturday I have to say wales are too soft it may be against the rules but someone should have sorted him out if the ref wont look after you you have to look after yourselves sadly the welsh pack lacked the agression and hardness to do it
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"I am a strong believer that in some instances excessive physicality should be aloud!" - Scott Coyne #18.
Oh yes Scott, everything on 11 please! Quiet physicality just doesn't cut it... and if it's too loud, yer too old ;P)
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Anything within the rules should be fine. I got penalised last week for raking someone who was killing the ball on the wrong side of a ruck? As long as there is no serious risk of injury like high tackles, choking, lifting in the scrum etc than you have to expect physical confrontation. Let`s not turn our glorious game into a football style farce.
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Re: 21 "hard to believe a Scottish player would ever stoop that low"
Not saying he did, just attacking your reasoning.
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The Problem with people saying rucking is ok but stamping isn't, it's all well and good in theory but refs these days have hardly ever played at a decent level and don't know the difference.
everyone whos played has been on the end of a shoeing or 2, i have i've got scars all over my arms legs hands from being in the wrong place (sometimes on purpose sometimes not) but each time i've deserved it and each time its made me think about doing it again (or should that be getting caught again?)
going back to the ROG thing if players are saying they saw it happening and know who didn't why didn't they react? i know i would have been in there like a flash. though its not the first timne that ROG has taken a beating and no1 has helped happened on the lions tour in 2001 in Oz
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Okay im sick of all this nonsnese about the scottish trying to strangle Ronan O'Gara , look we dont know if the unidentified scottish rugby player did try to kill him ok , so can we just drop the whole convo about it !!!! im scottish and i'm quite annoyed at our national rugby team being accused of all sorts from a man who was sitting in the stands and may i mention the only one who clams to have seen a thing !!!!
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Having played rugby most of my life as a forward I have inevitably been at the bottom of a ruck countless times (and again, inevitably, on the wrong side!). The mind boggles at the different positions all those bodies and limbs end up in in those situations. It could just have easily been the forearm or leg, of a member of EITHER team that was obstructing O'Gara's airway.
With regards to acceptable levels of violence, there's nothing more satisfying than putting in a good dump tackle or driving on with the ball in hand - smacking someone is never needed, enough injuries are caused in rugby without them being deliberate.
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Something hasn't sat right with me all week on this issue. I've played rugby all my life (33 this year). In any game, in any team I've played for and at any level, if players on my team had witnessed a choking or serious foul play to the extent that a player lost consciousness all hell would break loose. For some reason we're to believe that EOS & the Irish lads watched this and walked away??? No, I don't think so. This is purely a smokescreen to hide a concussion and make sure ROG was available this week.
As for acceptable violence I'm of the opinion that it's all down to intent. Stamping, punching, choking, gouging etc are all big no-no's. As is any sort of hit/etc on a player unable to defend themselves. Dump tackles, rucking, handoffs, fully contested scrums (I can't believe the SRU banned this in the non-Pro leagues) are all part and parcel of the game. If you can't handle them don't play.
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At least justice was finally done on St Patrick's Day. The Irish blew a chance to set an almost impossible points target for the French in their earlier game against Italy. Scotland gave them some hope by scoring a late try at the Stade de France, and then the French were awarded a dodgy try in added time by the incompetent Mr Joubert.
I couldn't have scripted it better! I hope the immature, unsporting Mr O'Sullivan has had sleepless nights since then. You never know, he may now choose to believe in karma and belatedly apologise to the Scottish team he so disgracefully maligned.
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