Super Saturday from a skewed angle
- 28 Feb 07, 05:59 PM
Cardiff - There can only be one way to go after Super Saturday - the Six Nations must be expanded and taken to Spain.
Now we could have the worthy Argentina side playing from there, or we could allow the Spanish national team in to give Wales the chance of winning a game (I鈥檓 sure Scotland would throw the new boys a few tries to get them started).
But the basic plan is the only sober conclusion I can come to after witnessing Saturday鈥檚 eight-hour marathon feast from the depths of Finnegan鈥檚 genuine Irish bar in Valencia.
I鈥檓 not sure that Valencia should be the permanent home for the new team, although perhaps it could be included in rotation with Madrid, Barcelona and San Sebastian.
Don鈥檛 get me wrong, Valencia is a beautiful city. It鈥檚 just that it鈥檚 a little off the tourist trail and not quite ready for the descent of nine rugby fans from Wales on a stag do.
That was clear when we got to our hostel room on Friday night after playing the nocturnal-loving Spanish nightlife to its death.
The outraged screams of 鈥淪ilencio! Silencio!鈥 from the only other occupant of the 10-bed dorm suggested that all was not quite right, and unholy odours in the room the next morning seemed to confirm it.
All was forgotten in the Saturday morning sunshine of Valencia鈥檚 main plaza, until the locals 鈥 wrapped in winter coats 鈥 started to stare strangely at our assorted shorts, sandals and swiftly reddening 鈥榯ans鈥.
It鈥檚 not like we had hankies on our heads. Well, not all of us. Some of us have to preserve the pate, though.
Alleviating any danger of our becoming civilised, it was time for the first kick-off.
Before the first round of beers and olives had come around Italy were three tries to the good.
With the watching Valencia Rugby Club well pleased at the Mediterranean鈥檚 burgeoning rugby power it was over to Croke Park and the deeply disturbing site of a blubbing John Hayes and Jerry Flannery.
The raw emotion and power of the occasion easily transmitted itself to our distant Irish pub, but that seemed to fuddle the senses somewhat 鈥 I could swear that at one point Wales were hammering France and cruising to a stunning victory.
Reality kicked in sometime around 11, with the realisation that the locals were only just arriving for their Saturday nights out.
Some strange hours passed. Did our groom Geraint really hug that rabid dog, saying how cute it was as it foamed at the mouth? Did I really try to chat up a bar maid using my Spanish lingo skills by saying 鈥淭his is a bar?鈥
No-one really knows the answers to these questions, nor to why our peace-loving room-mate had left the dorm when we returned, only to be seen later walking the corridors stroking a knife.
But the Six Nations clearly needs the Spanish experience if it is to grow up and civilise.
Wales 27-18 England
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Sean,
You and your mates would be welcome in my spanish bar anytime.
We love you welsh boys when you come to spain. Your singing is very nice.
I would like to see Spain play in the Six Nations too.
La cima llena mi mirada de amigo hacia adelante a verle en Valencia
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Why stop at Spain.
I suggest an eight team tournament with two groups of four, followed by Semi Finals (top vs 2nd), you get the idea.
The current six nations teams would automatically qualify and the other two places could be contested by Spain, Romania, Georgia and any other emerging nations. This will give the game in Europe the chance to grow and give the six/ eight nations the feel of a real tournament.
I accept that we would miss out on some of the match ups, butif England don't meet Ireland one year, they would the next, adding a bigger sense of occasion to it.
Imagine the shame of being the one out of five not to make the semi finals!
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The more teams the better is my view!!
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Why stop at 8?
Why not 16? including Poland and Macedonia?
While we're at it, why not give them a few million to develop their game?
Here's an idea...why not cut to the chase, get a lump hammer and smash a random 50% of British players knees in, save the bother of the extended tournament you are suggesting.
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Introducing more Nations loses interest. It was more intense and exciting before Italy and France joined. It has not helped that the rules have been badly mauled by the RFU. It now has all the appeal of rugby league!! Surely we should add health and safety inspectors to kill the game completely.
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bit excessive there JP James, not sure there's really any need of smashing 50% of british players in the knees...i reckon thats summat the courts would probably look at...fair point though the more inferior teams you add, the lower you drag the name of the 6 Nations...If any team is to be added then let it be Argentina and would anyone be against kicking Scotland out?!
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having lived and played here for five years....Spain need Argentina playing here....Spain are "donkeys" years behind the European elite... the game has no profile here at all, and is full of badly or unqualified coaches and referees slowing killing the game.....yet it is a great place to tour...see our website.... www.deniarugbyclub.com
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the clubs lose their players for long enough with the 6 nations as it is currently, letting anymore teams in and extending the competition would be ludacris
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kick scotland out? we beat wales muppet and england and france last year
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Dave, Post No 6:
Yes, I think i'd be against kicking Scotland out. For one, We're better than wales this year. We finished above england for the last two years and still have the best chance of spoiling France's Grand Slam this year.
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I too was in Valencia for the game! Were you the boys that had the snoring buffoon with you?
I'm not sure if Spain is ready for the Six Nations yet though.
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what about a home and away 6 nations and turn the heineken cup into an fa cup style knockout tournament?
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Pool matches and semis and a final for an 8 nations tournament actually means the same number of games as in the current six nations per team.
However I would say at this early stage maybe a second division six nations? Then the odd autumn test against the current top tier before slowly looking at bringing in promotion and relegation might be a better bet.
In my opinion the World Sevens, and the introduction of new tournaments like the Pacific 5 Nations are doing a lot to raise the standard of the international game as well as its profile, and slow but steady progress is best for the sport here.
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Does it need pointing out to Stuart (Post 13) that a second tier 6 nations already exists, or was he being ironic?
It is in fact a series of divisions, with promotion and relegation between them.
On the idea of a 7th team, would Romania not be the most appropriate, having won the '6 nations B' in 3 of its 5 years of existence?
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Just an aside: Portugal is currently better than Spain. Indeed, Portugal is the champion of Six Nations B and one of the best European teams in Sevens.
So, if the Six Nations is to be extended to Spain, why not to its Iberian neighbour?
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Interesting comment from Ross at 5. I'm sure that France were included in the 5 nations from around 1910!
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charles wheeler, were he dead, would be spinning in his grave
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Nah let's kick Scotland out, they're cr*p.
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Sean,
I'd like to remind you that Scotland did thrash Wales this year so any remarks about Scotland giving away tries to Spain is laughable! (i.e. Wales are one to talk!)
As for the debate around allowing extra teams in - personally I would be against this because I think there is the danger off the tournament becoming too prolonged which may impact the excitment (plus I don't think it's a bad thing to keep the focus on the 'home' nations).
Mark
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If this Ross guy can remember the thrills of the pre 1910 games, or the short period in the 30's during which France was expelled from the tournament for advocating professionnalism too soon, I suggest he tells us all about it. I can hardly wait. Or may be I can. That is, until March 11, when France takes on such an exciting English team.
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If this Ross guy can remember the thrills of the pre 1910 games, or the short period in the 30's during which France was expelled from the tournament for advocating professionnalism too soon, I suggest he tells us all about it. I can hardly wait. Or may be I can. That is, until March 11, when France takes on such an exciting English team.
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"Does it need pointing out to Stuart (Post 13) that a second tier 6 nations already exists, or was he being ironic?"
No, I think what he means is that the top team of that second tier would go up to the current 6 Nations and the bottom team go down to the second tier. That gets my vote. Might give some of the current stragglers in the current 6N a kick up the arse too....
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I've heard there's a group of Mongolians that swear they could come and win the tournament outright if they were allowed to play. They have a formidable front row.., problem is..they never stop yak-ing!
Seems to me adding more teams is just a way of getting our poor quality playing home teams more of a chance to win..something.
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If this Ross guy can remember the thrills of the pre 1910 games, or the short period in the 30's during which France was expelled from the tournament for advocating professionnalism too soon, I suggest he tells us all about it. I can hardly wait. Or may be I can. That is, until March 11, when France takes on such an exciting English team.
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Next Super Saturday Spanish Stag do head for the Celtics tavern in Santander.
You'll be most welcome with the local branch of Santander Welsh supporters, who are to be found quaffing on the right as you go in.
English supporters will not find the George's Cross anywhere and one poor gullible mate was told that the only ones were to be found on the loo rolls .. He only went and looked for them, and not finding them asked the bemused bar staff what had happened to the loo rolls with the English flag on them!
All set for St Patrick's Day super saturday- shame about Ireland's last minute against France. The question remains will Wales avoid the wooden spoon in the final game against , oh no it's England.
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1) Return to a 4-team home nations mid-season championship, allowing Italy, France, Spain and Portugal etc their own 'latin' or other cups, then introduce a continental championships in 2 or 4 yearly rotation around the world cup and abolish tours, except by champions of said competitions - it works for soccer and it can work for rugger too!
2) Make the politicians and bureaucrats at the top of the game realise they've retired and give the game back to the players, with all important decisions made by annual referendum - decided by a match played between an amateurs and professionals.
On-field competition is far better than the idiocy and waste of handbags and compromise dealt out in boardrooms and courtrooms.
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denia rugby club??
i spent last season playing for las ciencias in valencia.
as for the 6 nations, well theyre gonna be a joke, but then so were italy to start with
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Even beats Odd
Every 6N weekend now has all nations playing, and means every supporter of a nation has an interest in the weekend.
The Triple Crown is still a prize the teams from the 成人快手 Nations seek to win. Next up would eb the Championship and then top of the tree is the Grand Slam.
I feel the current format works, and that the 6N B offers the rest of European teams a competitive set of games. Italy offer realistic opposition which other sides in the 6N B 'currently' do not.
So at present leave the format alone.
A portion of the revenue though should go to helping the 'developing' European nations.
As for Argentina....it is a Quad Nations for them. Just move the seasons around a bit in the north. Say move the 6N to the end of the season, therefore freeing up Argentinian players from there clubs, because domestic seasons can finish earlier.
Each team could play home and away, so still 6 fixtures each, as they have now, but certainly less repetitive.
Again an Even number........see how it makes sense?
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I'm living in Australia and really enjoy the european internationals.
But an idea I've had from some of the other posts would be to add Argentina playing in Spain (and in lisbon maybe?) and the the winner of the the B nations whomever that is.
Then divide up the competition into two groups drawn at the start of every season by lottery. And the winnner of each group plays a grand final.
This would ensure only 3 pool games and then the final need to be played for all those who seem to be worried about players burning out to early.
Going on from this the winner could then play the winner of the tri nations which should be expanded to include a combined pacific team.
In sum I feel Countries are playing far to many games against eachother devaluing tests so that they are more like club games.
I really dont like it that NZ AUS and SA go to europe almost every year playing one offs its not not the same the less frequest but extended tours of the past.
Cheers.
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This tournament is a few teams short of being tantamount to the size of the world cup.
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Argentina should definitely be brought into a European 7N tournament. It is unfair that such an enthusiastic and emergent rugby nation is excluded from both the current 6N and the Tri-Nations. They have one of the best front rows and the equal second-best outhalf (with R O'Gara) in world rugby. Argentina may well repeat a win over Ireland in the upcoming WC although I take Ireland to beat France in revenge for their recent last-minute win.
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It certainly would be the right time to include Argentina.In spite of great recent results they are being denied the opportunity to improve by the irb(their recent decision to send a world cup to nz who clearly don't have the infrastructure to cope with it if the lions tour is anything to go by,instead of sending it to an increasingly interested Japan was also shameful).Most of their players now play in Europe so it would suit them to play 'home'games in Spain for the present,as well as promoting the game in Spain itself.It would also put an end to the current unfairness in the six nations in that some sides play 3home games per year whilst others only2.
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So this constitutes journalism of a kind does it? Like the English constitute a game of rugby perhaps? What on earth are you thinking? Just because there is space on the net, doesn't mean you are obliged to fill it. Pity your rugby team didn't think like you. They might play better and hold on to an advantage when they have it.
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"They have ...... the equal second-best outhalf (with R O'Gara) in world rugby"
Aha, ha ha, ha ha ha , ho ho ho ha ha hah.
What?
Oh, sorry!, You were serious??????
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This is the most ridiculous article I have ever read. Mr Davies, do you really think that Wales can beat Spain??!!
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Kicking Scotland out?! Isn't it only a few short years since England wanted to join the tri-nations because the 6N wasn't challenging enough..?
Seriously though, Argentina should have a place somewhere - if not the tri-nations, then the 6N...
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Despite the unprecedented critism of the bbc commentary team and their targeting of andrew farrel and the terrible female interviewer, there has been no mention of change or apology for this inept broadcast.Suffice to say the bbc is a long way behind sky broadcasts
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It would be great to have away weekends in Spain. However, that is not a good enough reason to let Spain or Argentina in. First re Argentina: Arg clearly merit a place in a first rate competition but I don't think that being in the 6N would improve Arg rugby as the whole point of thier presence would be to enthuse grass roots rugby and "home games" in Spain or Brussels whilst fantastic for us would do Arg rugby long term damage in my view. The proper place for them is in a reorganised South hemisphere comp.
re Spain: I am def for expanding rugby in europe and for us that is proper way to go but Portugal, Romania and Georgia are all better than Spain at the moment. There is currently a lower tier 6 Nations involving those nations and i think Russia and Netherlands. The current 6 Nations should make an effort to play these countries away from home even if it means playing second string teams. I would favour a play off between the wooden spoon team and the top team in the lower tier for a place in the following 6 nations for a while and then a decision can be made on whether to expand the current 6 nations to 8. One other possibilty is to have run the 6 as sis but every 4th year have a European Cup involving 12 teams with a top four going into knock out rounds.
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Can we have the teams playing in their national costumes too? - although England wouldn't be allowed their Morris dancing batons (wasn't France's suspension back in the 1930s because some of their players were found to be carrying knives?). And no claymores in the tartan either. Not sure what the Irish & French national costumes are - forgive the ignorance - any enlightenment out there?
Argentina deserve a place somewhere but I think the 'natural' one is in the Tri. If that's not on then I'd suggest a new pan-pacific tournament with the Islands, Japan, USA & Canada. It would take time but potentially a great market and great rivalries. My only real concern with this post is that some comments seem to suggest that a radical change to the 6N is needed. While the quality of rugby isn't always up to standards elsewhere in the world this competition is only exceeded by the world cup in its popularity and is the envy of the rugby world. We mess with it to much at our peril.
Finally is it just me or do other people find the word 'rugger' irritating?
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I totally agree there are better places to travel for a Rugby game than a wet wintery day in the windy stands of Edingburgh etc. I think we should go the whole hog and introduce Cyprus into the championship also my special preference would be Holland as you can have a great party in Amsterdam and maybe even Czech republic, Prague is such a great city. Better still reduce the game to 20 minutes per half so we don't miss out on too much of the culture!!
We could then brand the whole thing the "Euro/south american-bud-rugfest the king of tournaments".
Common sense at last!!!
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Common sense at last.
I completely agree we should have both Spain and Argentina in the tournament. I think oin addition we should also have Czech republic and Holland as although their sides are only in the early stages of development Prague and Amsterdam are fantastic cities to visit you can have a great party in both! I think in addition we should also reduce the game to 20 minutes per half to allow you to soak up the atmosphere better and only play in Scotland in July as this is the only time it is above zero degrees. Then we could brand the whole thing as the "Euro/Americas-bud-rugfest the King of tournaments". It just slips of the tongue ita all sounds great.
Oh one last thing how about a square ball?
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Post 10 - Scotland have the best chance of spoiling France's Grand slam this year?? Get real. From an Irish point view I'll have my fingers crossed that you boys can do the business in Paris but that is fantasy. Despite Paterson's reliable goal-kicking, Scotland are a shadow of the team they are with Jason White at 6. France will run through you. I have much more confidence in England to beat France, despite their horrendously inept offering at Croke Park. I'm hoping that a full-house at Twickenham can inspire them to up their game considerably. I suppose I don't really care who defeats France as long as someone does!
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If I remeber rightly, France were put out of the Five Nations briefly before the First World War after a match in Paris against England when the crowd got on to the pitch and assaulted the referee. They got back in as a result of wartime politics only to be put out again in the 1920's. The justification for that exclusion was excessively rough play rather than professionalism. Rugby League got into France on the back of France's exclusion from the Five Nations rather than the other way round- after all, French clubs weren't the only ones who had a "relaxed" approach to professional rules in the inter war era. Wales had similar issues and there were an awful lot of quality players turning out for sides in the west and south west of England during the 1930's who held vaguely defined jobs with big local employers which allowed lots of time for rugby.
International politics got France back in (it was back to Five Nations in 1939 with war looming and a need to shore up the Franco-British alliance). The professionalism issue really became a problem in the 1950's and 60's when there were mutterings about ex league players switching codes (I recall in France in the 1970's humourists would say that such players "turned professional" by opting for Union) and some bad tempered moments over individual French selections.
On the substance, I think there's a real case for bringing promotion and relegation into the two Six Nations competitions. It won't happen because media interests would hate having to sell (say) a Romania/Italy international to a UK audience and I suspect a side like Romania would become a yo-yo team, promoted and relegated each successive year. There's still a huge gulf between the best of the B competition and even the weaker Six Nations "proper" sides (Scotland put over 50 points on Romania in the autumn). It took Italy years of beating Five Nations sides (at least on their own turf) in autumn games in the 1990's before they got a very grudging nod.
In the 1970's there would have been a very strong case for Romania coming in- I remember them making a terrible mess of the French team which did the Grand Slam in 1977 and they were still enough of a force to see off the 1984 Scotland Grand Slam team in Bucharest. I suspect any moves to bring them in foundered on a mix of financial considerations and politics- rugby was pushed hard by the Ceaucescu regime and there might have been understandable reluctance on the part of the British RU's to become too closely involved with a country whose domestic club champions were the Securitate side
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Letting Spain into the six nations is the stupidest suggestions I've heard in a long time. They would get absolutely hammered by the other six teams. (We're talking getting hammered by 100 points too.) They can't even qualify for a world cup which has some awful teams in it already such as Nanibia. I can only assume that Spain are worse. In fact I didn't even know Spain had a team. Letting them in would bring down the credibility of the tournment. The only other European team to possibly consider letting into the six nations is Romania and they are way off the pace of the current six nations. They are however at least an established team. I would welcome Argentina though.
I still can't believe that Sean Davis suggested letting in Spain.
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CJ Ashton _ I totally agree with your comment regarding the female interviewer with Andy Farell. Even though Im a Leinster & Ireland diehard I found her constant repetitive questions to AF about the greatness of BOD and Darcy painful,,, my God the man had played 2 games of international rugby at that stage,,, give him a break. And for what its worth I thought he did okay in an abismal night (great for us) for the English team.
Anyway,,I think David, poster 39 has hit the nail on the head with a pan pacific championship with Japan, Canada, Argentina, USA etc. One reason I would not like to see Argentina in the tri nations is that they would improve far too much and as they are our (Irelands) nemisis in world cups (last 2) Id rather they festered playing the likes of Canada, Japan & USA. Not fair I know but you gotta look after your own.
Come on England,,, stuff the French
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Euro/south american-bud-rugfest the king of tournaments - Bring it on!
Argentina should get a place in the Tri-Nations - it just makes more sense. The Tri-Nations is a bit lop-sided at the moment with them playing each other three times (only twice this year due to world cup). Adding Argentina would be an excellent move for everyone. Games home and away - lovely jubbly.
Keep the six nations as it is - it's working. The teams in the six nations B are still well off the standard set by the others. However, the teams in the 6 nations B should be playing regular (every season) autumn internationals against the proper 6 nations teams.
Reduce the number of autumn games against the tri-nations teams - England playing SA twice and NZ in one autumn series is too much. Spoils things.
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The vast majority of posts on this blog are overwhelmingly in favour of Argentina being included in a major international tournament. They have been treated disgracefully for years, and despite this they have continually defeated, or been more than a match for, the top teams. For a team superior to Scotland, Italy, Wales and England to be excluded from both the Six Nations & Tri Nations tournaments is shameful. Is it the fear of how good they really are? Their pack has been superb for years, but now with world-class backs like Contepomi & Hernandez they are a formidable outfit. One of the two tournaments must be expanded to include the Pumas. Will the IRB commit to this? Not if the 'Old Boys Club' culture that currently exists in the governing body (prime example of this - the awarding of the 2011 World Cup to New Zealand) continues in the coming years.
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A step in the right direction would be to get rid of the Italian/magners league Heineken play off and give it to the top Romanian side. This is just one sacrifice the respect sides must make to make european rugby better and more competitive. Given that I am a connacht supporter makes this all the more sincere....
I think there is untapped potenital in Romania and a heineken place would give their domestic rugby much needed impetus and cash.
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Brian (no.43) - thanks for the history although I think being kicked out for having stilettos stuffed down their socks would have had more elan.
AF .... quite right about Argentina playing & improving in the Tri. It did occur that within 10 years we'd all be weeping as the pumas pummel a succession of red, white, green & blue teams (well they might do some pummelling sooner than that - look out!). Personally I still twitch at the mention of Western Samoa.
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Looks like the idea of a seven-team tournament has provoked some pretty heated, thought-out debate. As the article has been taken more seriously than I ever imagined (!) I guess I'd better make my position clear.
The introduction of Italy to the tournament has been fantastic, giving an even number of games to balance out the weekends and helping their development as an international force. There have been a few seasons where they've looked out of their depth, but the win in Murrayfield confirms that they are serious players. I still think Wales will win in Rome, but I'd say that - for the first time - the majority of Welsh fans are looking at Wales as underdogs against Italy (I don't have scientific figures to back that up - it's just the impression I get).
Now, adding a seventh team would imbalance things again and - given the current relationships between clubs and countries and the overcrowded fixture list - it's simply a non-starter.
If that situation somehow changes, Spain would not be the seventh team - I only suggested it to get in the joke about Wales being able to win a game!
Argentina, though, are fully deserving of a place in the Championship, they would be serious title contenders, and Spain would be a fantastic place for them to play their games.
I see it as crucial to the development of the world game to get the Pumas involved in a regular, competitive international tournament outside of the World Cup, but that competition should be the Tri Nations. There is capacity in the fixture list of the southern hemisphere giants. The majority of summer tour squads sent away by the Six Nations teams are under-strength embarrassments that devalue the international game. If those tours are not being taken seriously, they should be scrapped. You also have SA, NZ and Australia playing each other too often - I forget how many times SA and Australia played each other last year, was it 3 or 5 times? That's just crazy - and a kick in the teeth to the Pumas.
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Three Divisions of 5 Nations possibly including the following could be good...(KO Season, or new teams must start from the bottom division)
Div 1
England, France, Ireland, Wales, South Africa
Div 2
Argentina, Italy, Scotland, Romania, Portugal
Div 3
Georgia, Spain, Netherlands, Russia, Uruguay (?)
With promotions/relegation and any missing triple crown matches played in the autumn of that year if need be
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Bob Poole - ludicrous...
Keep 6N as is - Argentina can sort themselves out into the trinations or a new American competition.
As for this year - hilarious to hear Welsh slag off Scotland - I do recall 21-9 at Murrayfield - drop Wales to a B division after they get whitewashed this season...
And Ireland? Superb when France scored in the last moments - haven't laughed so much in ages. Irish are getting so full of themselves they are beginning to sound English. As for them dreaming of the Grand Slam on St Patrik's Day - that would have been just too cheesey to contemplate. RWC 07 they will lose to France and Argentina and not make the 1/4 finals...
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Why not have a tournament like the recent cricket triangular series, where each team plays the others 4 times and then the top two have a final of 3 more games. That wouldn't get boring in the slightest.
As for the chap who said it was more interesting before France joined. He must be really old.
There may be some scope in attracting a second tier of Six Nations. But not seriously combining with the established elite. Lets not forget this is Italy's first year of looking truly threatening. Maybe there is scope for the second tier of Six Nations which I believe is played anyway but over a very long period of time to have a similar schedule to elite one. Perhaps the team that finishes top of that could play the team that finishes bottom of the elite. Even then, the gulf between the two would still be huge. Not worth doing yet I don't think.
Argentina should join the Tri Nations, that tournament is duller than dish water and I would love to see the Argentine rugby power develop. The game needs to grow, everyone recognises that, but it seems only in Europe is it truly working. The RFU and the Southern Hemisphere 'elite' should be appalled at the lack of growth of the game.
The Pacific Islands have not be welcomed, Argentina are looking for a competition to join and don't get me started on New Zealand getting the 2011 world cup.
Its pathetic.
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Rugby shouldn't go all Royal & Ancient (as in the golf system of sports administration); get continental and to blazes with shoddy excuses for keeping ownership of the game - if rugby is to survive professionally it must spread across the world and that means viable club rugby on every continent.
The continued expansion of the international game has long been to the detriment of the club season and does need delineation - starting with an end to central contracts.
European championships should include European nations, American championship should include american nations (ie Pumas vs Canada), an African championship can include African nations (Kenya, Tunisia), Pacific nations should include Pacific nations (Japan, Hawaii?) and Asia is big enough to look after itself.
IRB needs to devolve responsibility for the game to continental associations so they can ensure the game doesn't get swamped with rosy-eyed public schoolboys and overtaken by mechanical RL or NFL's.
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Why not have a tournament like the recent cricket triangular series, where each team plays the others 4 times and then the top two have a final of 3 more games. That wouldn't get boring in the slightest.
As for the chap who said it was more interesting before France joined. He must be really old.
There may be some scope in attracting a second tier of Six Nations. But not seriously combining with the established elite. Lets not forget this is Italy's first year of looking truly threatening. Maybe there is scope for the second tier of Six Nations which I believe is played anyway but over a very long period of time to have a similar schedule to elite one. Perhaps the team that finishes top of that could play the team that finishes bottom of the elite. Even then, the gulf between the two would still be huge. Not worth doing yet I don't think.
Argentina should join the Tri Nations, that tournament is duller than dish water and I would love to see the Argentine rugby power develop. The game needs to grow, everyone recognises that, but it seems only in Europe is it truly working. The RFU and the Southern Hemisphere 'elite' should be appalled at the lack of growth of the game.
The Pacific Islands have not be welcomed, Argentina are looking for a competition to join and don't get me started on New Zealand getting the 2011 world cup.
Its pathetic.
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Is 45) being serious? If so, it's the same small mindedness as the IRB which prevents rugby from being truly global like football. Other countries want to play and do their best but if it's a closed shop at the top then people lower down the ranking order will just turn away.
I hope Argentina qualify by beating Ireland and stick it to the big boys.
A world league is unfeasible - that's what the World Cup is for, but let Argentina into the tri-nations, I can understand the repetitive fatigue - also as an analogy how many times India play Australia at cricket ruins the quality and originality of playing each other.
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comment 51 , Bob poole
here are you mad or something? like 3 groups of 5 teams is like a world cup!! having this every year is crazy. i think you need to calm down, who in the entirety of the universe would tune in, yet alone buy tickets for a game between the netherlands (who's captain is a school teacher) and russia? you are crazy..
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I can't help feeling sorry for Scottish rugby fans. The players turn up, run about a bit, lose, and nobody appears to care too much.
What happened to the days when Wales, England and even Australia would go north and worry about losing. England used to measure themselves against Scotland during the Calcutta cup. Young English players learnt many valuable lessons watching Gavin Hastings slotting the winner from the halfway line in the dying seconds to win. Scottish indifference is harming English rugby. The traditional contests have been the backbone of international rugby for 100 years and the goalposts are moving.
The thistle is now more like a pansy and the highlanders appear to have nothing up their kilts in reserve for a rainy day.
Come on jocks! Run and score some tries against the English, do us a favour like the Irish if you think you're hard enough!
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I think that a second Tri-Nations should be devised, purely between USA Canada and Argentina. Now rugby has gone pro in the US its sure to boom and this will force Canada to up there levels of competition. This then leaves the tri and 6 nations untampered and creates a whole new 'hemisphere' of rugby.
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It all depends on what we want really, if we look at the international calender now it's the same 9 teams that play each other every year anyway in between the 6N, the Tri-Nations, the Autumn Tests and the Summer Tours.
Why not create World Series Rugby while we're at it - organise the rugby calender so that everyone plays each other once either home or away every year and have one big league table, do away with the World Cup, Lions Tours and anything else that gets in the way of the 'franchises'.
As for who will watch, tune in, etc to the smaller games, as someone who has played for Wolverhampton 4ths against Wulfrun on a Saturday Afternoon, in Rugby that isn't always what it's about.
It's more a Rocky Balboa thing - give them a chance and generate excitement to develop the game over a period of time rather than having one miserable beating every four years at the RWC
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Dave Henderson (#52): Mr Poole not so far off the mark. I do recall a 17-37 loss to Italy AT HOME. My word that is 2nd division behaviour now isn't it boyo?
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Braachi, you're right, a 17-37 defeat to Italy is the stuff of the second division. And a 21-9 defeat - a scoreline which flattered the losers - to a team that loses 17-37 against Italy at home, is the stuff of Mr Poole's third division!
Philip Keates, whilst I'm sure you only wrote this to provoke a reaction ("What happened to the days when Wales, England and even Australia would go north and worry about losing."), I'll still remind you that your glorious England team, playing the scintilating rugby it is renowned for, not only failed to score a try the last time it came north, but also lost...as did Wales.
Chris Patterson is also a far more reliable kicker than Gavin Hastings ever was - not that he was bad mind, but I'll never forget him missing a kick from in front of the posts to defeat England in the World Cup semi final - and is indeed the most prolific in world rugby at present.
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when the 5 nations went to 6, people moaned that Italy were just going to be the whipping boys and for a couple of years the were, but because they were allowed to play in a proper tournemant they have improved immensely and the 6 nations is all the better for it. Seeing Scotland whipped at Murrayfield was glorious!
I'm all for allowing more teams in, and I like the idea of 8 teams, two pools of 4 with semi etc, it would give the tournament a real egde.
More International rugby please!!!
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There seems to be a bit of an attitude that bigger is somehow better for the 6 Nations. It doesn't always work that way.
The Italians had been proving themselves over the years before they were admitted to the 5 Nations with some good results. And even so it took a couple of more years for them to be really competitive. The rest of Europe are too far behind to risk expanding the tournament. It would do them no good to be constantly on the receiving end of 30-40 point defeats which is what would happen. The best things for them is to continue to play in the 6 Nations B for the moment. This tournament needs to be promoted properly and more money brought into it so that it means more for the countries and to help improve the standards. Maybe in the longer term promotion and relegation could play a part but it is too soon for that.
As for Argentina, they should definitely be included in the Tri-Nations. They are well capable of competing at that level and its a more natural home for them with the other southern hemisphere teams. After all the other countries are used to having to travel distances to play and it would mean that they could play each other twice only to make it a six round competition.
The IRB should also promote a Pacific Basin tournament involving the Islanders, Japan, Canada and the US in a four team competitions or split the islands up into their resptive nations (Fiji, Samoa and Tonga) and make it a six team championship. This would allow these countries regular international rugby with teams of roughly a similar level.
It would also make sense if the IRB in conjuntion with the Unions could try to co-ordinate the seasons between north and south and run their international tournaments at similar times. This would allow for better crossover of players from clubs in different hemispheres.
Adding the World Cup in every four years and semi-regular tours and we would have a competitive and workable international rugby scene.
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problem with argentina joining the tri nations is that most of their players are in europe. plus, i think playing in a european competition would be a better cultural fit
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I agree with Collie.
So Sean, you and your friends were holiday in Spain and watched the rugby in an Irish bar? Brilliant. What a catchy idea, let's put it on the internet!
Dave (post 6), Scotland out? Eh? Didn't Scotlan beat England (laughably, reigning World Champions) last year? How long ago was it when England sought a place with the big boys in the southern hemisphere as the 6 Nations wasn't hard enough? The point is, these things are cyclical.
Wales won the Grand Slam very recently and were a shambles against an ordinary Scotland side a few weeks ago. etc etc etc
Sean, any plans for the weekend with the lads?
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to Stephan F - why do you want Arg to stick it to big boys and qualify by beating ireland? What has Ireland done?
Everyone knows what Arg is capable of esp ireland. Also ireland has always supported Arg rugby infact Arg rugby owes its existence to irish Jesuits bringing it to the posh schools of Buenos Aires. In Arg it is considered an irish/welsh game.
It is SA, Aus and NZ that need to wake up and accept Arg. Europe did so along time ago and the fact taht most of their top players play in europe.
Although a full Lions tour to Arg seems to be sensible as well.
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There no real point in including spain in the 6 nations...yet. Have they even qaulified for the world cup? The point is they need to show they are at least as competitive as Italy before we even consider letting them in. But personally I think the championship would be ruined if another team was added.
The puma should have been allowed to join the tri-nation along with the pacific islands. 6 Nation is for European teams. Though I would not rule out a lions tour there. I was in cardiff watching in a near silent stadium as the "Best" of the British isles drew to the pumas 3rd choice team. I think we owe it to them.
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If your second post had been your first and your first had been consigned to the bin you could have provoked some serious thought. Now why would Argentina want to play out of Spain, any more than England would want to base themselves in Moscow? Romania and an other for the 8 Nataions and turn the tri into a quatre, simply.
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The 6N should be expanded into a European Championship of about 8 teams with relegation and promotion between the current six nations A & B. For the good of the sport this would give more incentive to teams to challenge for promotion and subsequent passion in the fans to raise the profile of the sport in their country.
This could be mirriored bu other continental cups - Americas (USA, Canada, Argentina, Uruguay)& Oceanic/Pacific (Pacific Isles, NZ, Australia, Japan) etc Though some initial mid-term temporary juggling would be fine to make sure everyone was in a suitably competitive league (Argentina & South Africa)
I dislike the arrogant attitude of fans of 'traditional countries' who look down on developing countries - as can be seen by the poor attitudes in the past to Italy & Argentina, and especially the latter being not let into the Tri-Nations. What Rugby needs is to develop beyond just the current top tier teams and become a true World Sport
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Re: 55
Seems a bit of sour grapes here. What is the 'established elite' you are talking about in the 6 nations. I can't see it - and the tier system??? you all seem pretty much on a par to me.
Why do you need these limitations and confines of some kind of rugby 'class system'? And your commment about that fact that the game needs to grow and this is only working in Europe ?? Which teams are blazing a trail in Europe ?? I can't see what you're talking about. After every 6 nations game there is always talk of who could possibly beat the All Blacks ...not a European side...
and as for the tri nations being duller than dish water - have you seen any of the games recently? If any of the teams competing in the 6 nations played in the tri nations it would be a humiliating experience for them. There are practical elements involved in the decision not to include Argentina in the tri nations ... nothing to do with the teams considering themselves 'elite'-infact I take offence at this term..no team can consider themselves 'elite' at the moment - even the ABs.
Also why is it 'pathetic' that NZ is hosting the 2011 World Cup?
The last time they hosted it was in 1987 ??
What exactly is your problem??
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Its funny how everybody slags Scotland off so much. I'm not trying to say we're great but we did beat Wales and we gifted Italy the win, you can't say they engineered those tries themselves! We also have a relativly good record against France of late (i.e not getting humped!) so hopefully we can do something, especially with some of the players finally standing up and being counted.
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