England cool before Croke Park cauldron
- 21 Feb 07, 04:48 PM
Bath - It’s international week and England are about to head to Dublin for their historic date with Ireland but seeing the players at their training base on Wednesday – you never would have guessed.
After a full-on training session - with members of the Bath academy standing in for the Irish - they talked respectfully and sincerely about the emotional backdrop that accompanies this game, using words like "privileged" and "honoured" in describing the prospect of playing at the home of the GAA.
But I could definitely detect a sense of calm as they gathered in one of the vast halls that make up Bath University’s impressive sporting complex.
I didn't actually see Jason Robinson get injured - most of the reporters had gone back into the complex by then.
Details of the injury were sketchy - and no-one was telling whether it was a tackle from a promising Bath youngster that did the damage!
The England PR machine won't have been too happy to have one of their star players injured and 'bad news' all over the backpages.
The latest at 5pm on Wednesday was there would be no further update on his injury til Thursday, although I see they have called up Dave Strettle as a precaution.
Still, the setback didn't seem to upset preparations too much.
Maybe it is the effect of England’s measured and down-to-earth head coach Brian Ashton. Or maybe it is hard to get too carried away when a pole vaulter is going through his paces yards from where the press conferences are to be held.
To give you an example of the atmosphere, Martin Corry stood over the shoulder of a camera crew trying to put off Leicester colleague Harry Ellis as he was being interviewed while Perry Freshwater could hardly contain himself as Louis Deacon poised for a photographer like a male model would for a catalogue.
Now there is no doubt that this weekend will be hugely emotional and significant and when the players get to Dublin the nerves will be jangling.
But on the evidence of Wednesday, the players are not letting the pressure get to them and ahead of what is a massively-hyped game that can only be a good thing for England fans.
At the start of the session, the crowd was sparse but as training grew more vocal and intense, word spread and the numbers grew.
And at one point Ashton had to stop himself from shouting instructions to his players during an attacking drill as he looked at the throng on the touchline, pulling his charges in for a huddle instead.
England’s players did not hold back when youngsters from Bath's academy bravely kitted up in shoulder pads - the sharp intakes of breath from the viewing public after big hits from the likes of Joe Worsley, Phil Vickery and Danny Grewcock to name but three giving evidence to that.
England’s forwards separated from the backs and chatterbox referee was on hand to help the pack with their scrummaging and line-out work.
And it was quite an experience to see England’s pack shove, sweat and shout on the scrum machine at close hand.
After all that, you would think the players would be loathed to turn up and answer endless questions about taking on the Six Nations favourites in their own backyard.
That was not the case - relaxed and laid back was the order of the day as England’s finest broke bread with the media. Let's see if that's still the case come 5.30 on Saturday..
Wales 27-18 England
Comments Post your comment
why shouldn't the current world champions be totally relaxed at the prospect of playing a team that's never ever beaten new zealand, never even reached a semi final of the world cup (let alone the final!) and hasn't won a grand slam since india was a colony!
Complain about this post
Because we've beaten you the last 3 times we've played you, twice at "Fortress" Twickenham, what a joke. We've also finished higher in the Championship for the past 3 years than you!
Complain about this post
because they're crap,thats why!
Complain about this post
England being relaxed is a really good thing. People can say what they like about Ireland but when have they ever won anything substanstial? They have not won the 6nations for ages let alone a grand slam (and never a WC). If Jonny is on form, Ireland will be in trouble. They just can't seem to deliver when the heat is really turned on! Swing Low..etc
Complain about this post
Because we have lost the last 4 matches to them and haven't been playing international standard rugby for nearly 4 years. Defending world champions we might be, but I am resigned to the fact that we will soon just be the old world champions.
Complain about this post
Luckily for England, Tim, you're not their motivational guru. There are many in the Celtic fraternity who just love to see that sort of attitude from English teams. Ireland may not have done any of those things, but they've beaten overconfident English sides, home and away, plenty of times (as have all the other Celtic nations).
Complain about this post
quite frankly when you've won the world cup it's difficult to get too fired up for playing the celts
Complain about this post
I think Honest Tim struggles with the current state of English Rugby and is living in the past. Come back to the present and reality Tim!!!
I think you should be honest with yourself Tim!!
It is about now, can you deal with that?? Past glories, that is all England have to hold on to the moment.
Complain about this post
Now, now girls, play nice!!
Truth is, with BOD back and if Stringer makes the fitness grade, Ireland will be a much stronger outfit than the one that played France two weekends ago. I can't see them throwing away as much advantage two games in a row.
England need to regain some of the form that they started to show against the Scots if they want to begin to build towards the world cup.
RWC2007 seems a long way off but at the same time all too close for both teams!
Complain about this post
Yeah, thanks for that comment HONEST TIM?? Honestly, if you knew what good rugby was, you'd know The only promising plays that created tries for the English against NZ in recent days, was Ben Cohen during the Investec AIs 2002, and Jonny's chip and chase in the Summer 03 tour. Everything else including the World Cup, where they didn't meet the All Blacks, has been Jonny, Jonny, Jonny! In fairness, he was and is very good. Although the form of Dan Carter is far and above Jonny's form ever. Ask the NZ camp, what teams in the NH could poss cause them a headache, they'll tell you Ireland and France. England are nowhere to be seen. In the 3 occasions, Ireland have met the WORLD CHAMPS (for a day) since the RWC 03, Ireland have embarrassed them. The World Cup structure allowed England the path of least resistance. Australia who almost beat them, only beat Ireland by a point in the closing seconds. So, if Woodward's boys were so great then, they should've hammered the Aussies. Ireland are building every year towards being the team, that England wish they could be, instead of being 'fly by night' champions that have barely won since. See you at Croker.
Complain about this post
England are one of those teams who can play incredible rugby if they use their brains. At the moment they have the players to control the game and add a little spice to it as well. England have a good chance against Ireland and I would not ever write England off.
Complain about this post
Quite frankly it's difficult for the Irish lads to get too fired up for a game against a team we're sick of beating these days.....
Complain about this post
Post 6:
Oh dear the old myth of a celtic tribe that exclusively inhabited the British Isles, except what is now England, crops up again!
Complain about this post
Still, past glory's better than no glory at all, eh?
Complain about this post
Honest Tim,
professional wind-up merchant?
I thought about all the usual rebuttals, but decided that it's not worth the energy.
Complain about this post
Congratulations to those who can't spot a wind-up even when it's THAT BIG.
It's gonna be a weekend of interesting games though - I for one am looking forward to it :-)
Complain about this post
To Brian Collins
Once the majority of the Final winning squad had retired, Ireland and many others had a chance of beating the subsequent England development squad. Now a couple of the old players have returned, England look like actually competing. Ireland always look good (to the Irish), but in all honesty haven't ever really competed on the world stage. Take BOD (who IS world class) and a couple of others out of the Irish squad, and what are you left with?????
Only one N Hemi team has consistently beaten S Hemi teams in the last decade.... and it's not Ireland.
If ireland are building every year to a team that the English wish they could be, why do they still not have a pack that can compete on the world stage. Even the desolate Welsh had ireland feeding on scraps for the majority of their match.
'Luck of the Irish' to you. All it's bought you so far is wins over depleted development sides.
Better to have a 'fly-by-night' victory in the World Cup Final than against a team of Six-Nations debutants.....
Complain about this post
Looks like Ireland have to worry about the RWC hosts before they even consider beating the S Hemisphere teams....
Reality-check number 1.
Complain about this post
Post 13
Nothing to do with it, Guy - couldn't care less about your Celtic tribe. Just love to see pride before a fall, that's all.
Cardiff & Dublin, 2005
Twickenham & Edinburgh, 2006
Wembley, 1999....
After the performance against the mighty Italy, there's not too much to be too calm about.
Complain about this post
Not honest tim!
What a wonderful thing healthy debate is.
As many point out Ireland teams in the past have not done as well as they perhaps should have. Irelands greatest enemy has always been themselves. In the past they have not shown the professional mental attitude to close a game down, especially when they are losing.
In a team with as much talent as this current side, if they fire on all cylinders from kick off and hold their own in the scrum then it is very likely they will win by a handsome margin come Saturday.
Who would dispute that Ireland faced their two toughest matches of this tournament first, whereas England have so far played the two worst teams in the championship.
Get you months wages on Ireland by 17 points!
Complain about this post
Ireland is a settled team, England is a work in progress.
The settled team usually wins.
If England do beat a very good Irish team (and I think that they can) it will be the best performance by England since they beat the ABs in their own back yard in Summer 2003 (I think) with a reduced pack.
But that is the size of the task because Ireland are no 2 or 3 in the world with BOD back.
A win for England would change the whole prospect for RWC2007, (for both teams) but it might well prove too soon in the rebuilding process.
Here's hoping that rugby wins on the day and that we have a great game...
Complain about this post
Brian (post 10) I hardly think two 6 point wins (2004 and 2005) and a 4 point win (2006) are "embarrasing" the opposition. Narrowly beating them by one score, yes, not embarrasing them.
Losing 43-6 (2003) is embarrasing. Ireland have never come near to beating England by that score.
Complain about this post
17.
In Cork they would call you a LANGER!!!
Complain about this post
Jason Robinson would be a huge blow. Maybe not the biggest there could be but I doubt Strettle will bring what Jason Robinson could have.
Complain about this post
hey guys, the fact that the rugby population of England compared to Ireland is vastly different, makes Enland ALWAYS the Goliath,but we all know what David did .
Complain about this post
The Ireland team has done well in the last few seasons, but the fact remains that Ireland are not a genuine power in world rugby and their achievements have come when genuine powers like Australia, South Africa, England and France have been going through the doldrums. This is probably the best side Ireland has ever produced, but even they remain unconvincing as genuine GS or RWC contenders. As this side declines, and the genuine powers reemerge, Ireland will return to being everyone's favourite underdog.
Complain about this post
I think that at the moment Ireland are the form team in the Northern Hemisphere (I am English) and they play some very attractive Rugby. England have not got it right yet!
England are having to completely rebuild whereas Ireland are settled and in form. Jonny being fit could actually casue England a problem as England will not know how to play without him! However I am hoping England will win but ill be cheering Ireland as they cut England apart with a swooping backs move the likes of which England can only dream about. itll be a match for the neutral and I am really looking forward to it! Come to think about it, I dont care who wins at the weekend as long as the rugby is great, the guinness is cold and France lose!!!!
Complain about this post
Nick swift I think maybe it is comments like that which result in the English 'arrogant' tag. I'm an Englishman and I would say that whilst we have won the WC having clearly excelled for a 2 year period that time is also gone, have we not returned to being second rate in comparison to the Southern Hemisphere and in that i include Australia (Don't be surprised to see them lift the trophy in Paris they will rebuild quicker and better tan the English).
We(The English) don't have a devine right to excel in the same way that Ireland are merely reproducing what England did in 2003 by having an exceptional settled, consistent, skillful and confident side. Ireland will no more return to being underdogs as England will to the mediocrity that pre dated 2003. I've enjoyed living off the last 3 years but get in the real world, even if we beat Ireland, which i doubt, we have no chance in the WC. It took 15 exceptional players to win the Trophy in 2003, we are lucky to have 3 or 4 now.
Complain about this post
simple pleasures of life...hearing the English bigging themselves up to disproportionate levels and then seeing them get beaten the cfap out of!! keep up the good work lads!!
rugby is bliss...
Complain about this post
25 "hey guys, the fact that the rugby population of England compared to Ireland is vastly different, makes Enland ALWAYS the Goliath,but we all know what David did ."
You do know that the bible is a work of fiction based on other Near Eastern myths don't you?.... :-D
Complain about this post
Its really just another day at the office for England. If we beat Ireland - so what, done it countless times before "who are they anyway". On the other-hand if these over nationalistic celts do manage another win on saturday so what. The English will just come again another time. We fail to see the importance of bragging rights over a game ...Hey you Irish grow up! Chill out a little.
The superiority of the English over you is a historical fact. Feel better now ?
Complain about this post
It seems that out of the whole 'England World Champions' bandwagon, a new one has been produced. It's evident a good proportion of people now retain all their ready-made rugby knowledge from the back of tabloid papers and not current form.
Yes, England are far from the finished article however both in recent European and domestic rugby there is an undeniable resurgence of form in key positions. We finally have a sense of leadership and direction that has the POTENTIAL, if nothing else, to pose a far greater challenge than Ireland and any other celtic nations come November.
Complain about this post
I have just come from training and beers at Cairo Rugby Club and chatted to a mate there about the game this weekend (might lose this weekend but could win the 6 nations...) and how lovely it would be if England started to build now and NZ started to do their usual thing (struggle to maintain world dominance during the real thing!). Your blog seems to consist of people who have no friends or club to chat about these things. Ha Ha. Ah, well, leave you all to it, you rugby know alls, you....
Complain about this post
Post 19 - Mate I fully respect the current Ireland team and they are a talented outfit. However what you cannot do is mock England's failure to win Grand Slam's when the pressure is on as Ireland cannot win didly when they are installed as favourite's as was bourne out against France and last season as well. 1948 is a long time ago and England have won a lot of grand slam since then.
Complain about this post
Wins over England since the world cup mean nothing, they have basically been a development squad following the retirement of numerous GREAT players, as well as injury and temporary retirement.
Just take BOD out of ireand for 4 years a la wilko....just take that one player out and ireland would be basically half the team!! take out O gara as well....and ireland would be completely pants i dont think many can deny that. England have had to deal with a lot more losses than that.
funnier than "england living on past glories" is the celtish teams suddenly chirping because england arent dominating for once!
look at wales....the welsh fans have suddenly gone quiet again eh? its hilarious. Ireland are a strong team at the moment but its not going to last. France and England have the depth and the strength and come RWC, the cream of the 6 nations is going to rise to the top again.
Complain about this post
Saying all that I have a soft spot for Ireland (being like a yank who gets over excited I have distant Irish ancestors) and the idiots criticising an Irish team who let rip against South Africa and Australia in the Autumn and gave New Zealand tougher challenges (on NZ soil may I add) than virtually all other teams have no idea. I doubt the French or English could go to New Zealand and nearly upset the other wordly Blacks at the moment.
Complain about this post
Ireland have hardly 'embarassed' England in the last three encounters. The game at Landsdown Road was a real 50/50 game that was marred by poor refereeing. The game last year was on a knife edge too and I felt Ireland got the 'rub of the green' in that as well. Lets hope for another cracking game and hope too that its decided by skillful play rather than a poor referee.
With all respect to Scotland and Italy, they came to Twickenham with defensive, one dimensional gameplans to keep the score down. Ireland will have a go and we'll see if England are really up to the job or not. I'm also sick of all the politics and Celtic 'England baiting' that is in evidence in this forum. If England win at Croke Park, it will be an upset.
Complain about this post
24.
I dont think we have to worry too much about ur jason robinson now that shane horgan is back on wing. who remembers last year when he grew about 6inches to score that try!..... o yes, i did just go there!
Complain about this post
Having lived in Britain for over a decade it is the pathetic comments made by some of the posters on here that makes me like the England football fans more than their rugby fans!
Thats a serious comment. I'm not fishing!
Complain about this post
This game will be about the forwards. If Ireland can compete then they will have the platform to let their backs loose and we'll probably see some exciting rugby.
If England are dominant up front, then it will most likely be a kicking game from both sides as they attempt to gain territory. In such an event, the Irish forwards will likely give away more penalties and Wilkinson will kick them.
As an Englishman, I want scenario two; as a rugby fan, I want scenario one.
Nah, who am I kidding, scenario two all the way as long as it produces an England win.
Might as well have one English speaking country going for the Slam.
Complain about this post
lets broaden this out. is this yet not another case of the english hype shooting itself in the foot. The 1966 world cup fluke and RWC 'of kicking' in later years has given most of the english population an over inflated opinion of the prowess of themselves as a sporting nation. If only they could approach sporting occasions with the correct level of realisim and attitude to the other teams competing then mayby they would would enjoy far greater support from those nations they constantly see as inferior.
Complain about this post
Post 28, I think another reason for us English being thought of as arrogant is the lack of history taught at school these days. How many English kids know about the Easter Rising or Bloody Sunday (especially considering the Sun when they relate the murders of innocent civilians to a welcomed target by an occupying force - and I'm not talking about Iraq, although you'd have thought we would have learnt!)? Especially when considering my generation (ie. born in the 80s). It's the establishment to blame (and the British establishment is sh*te). I'd go as far to say that anything my mates know about Anglo-Irish relationships over the past century is the IRA, which would result in a response consisting of "errr, they bombed stuff?" - hardly any comfort to anybody whose Irish who has lived with the consequences of our actions for God knows how long (however my uncle can't stop banging on about how well the Irish economy is haha). I am not an apologetic Englishman (despite having other influences of Irish & Chinese), but I do agree with the English being arrogant in a certain sense (and yes it is in the past, but history isn't easily forgotten, especially if we are supposedly doomed to repeat it). Although when the Celts call us arrogant when relating to support for our national team, I have to disagree - that's just clouded judgement on their behalf :P.
There was that quiz show on ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ 1 a few weeks back with each nation pitted against each other, and Myleene Klass was shocked at the resentment displayed by the "Celtic nations" (she certainly wasn't born in the 80s, before I'm sure). That goes to show how oblivious most English are to the bad points of their own history, to not realise the impact and resentment caused. Sometimes you just have to hold your hand up. (Obviously I don't feel individually responsible.)
PS. I'm quietly confident England can win. There's always hope ;).
Also,
I'm sure the game will go along smoothly despite reports of protests etc. England are playing in an independent sovereign nation, and despite Irish reservations about GSTQ (it'd be solved if the English had their OWN anthem), the Irish should feel comfortable about respecting a foreign anthem in their OWN nation regardless of historical context - at the end of the day they kicked us out, and apparently a few years ago it was played at Croke Park during the Special Olympics WITH the Union Jack (which I'm certain won't be seen when ENGLAND turn up on Saturday). Now if it was a game of football, it might be a different matter :P. I'm sure if the Germans had a quality rugby team, Twickenham would be nothing like Wembley... Opportunists like Hain and Barrett are just spoiling the show, along with the media. Perhaps the British should apologise, I duno, but if its to be anything with meaning it needs tact on an independent occasion free from sport. A greater gesture might be for the British to start teaching some relevant history in relation to a close neighbour. Although I'm sure the GAA don't want to make a habit of having foreign sports played on their ground :P.
Yeh... I think that's all I have to say lol. This is what you call progress I think. Would this have happened 10 years ago?
Complain about this post
42
are you really female or are you just pulling the mickey?
Complain about this post
whoah there, stand down soldier!
I for one can t wait till this match is over. The amount of time i ve wasted thinking about it it ridiculous. All the nationalistic crap thats been bandied back and forth is getting tiresome now. Its all very simple. Ireland have the better team at this point so they should win, but there s always: the dodgy referee, the biased referee, that crap try that was lucky, the lucky bounce of the ball, you only won it cause of one player,the unbelievably easy try that "shouldn t count" cause my gran could have scored it, oh and how can i forget, the weight of history, and my personal favourite, everything you ve ever won was a fluke!;and so on.
Wait..am i missing the point of sport here? Ok, lets play the game and afterwards let the hostilities commence. Concerning Robinson s injury, lets hope he s on the pitch. He seems to have been very "lucky" with his three "crap" tries and England need him. At least if he doesn t play England will still have Farrells lightening pace! I d like to see BOD dumped like a truck by the way. Here s looking forward to the weekend
Complain about this post
42 victoria bit harsh calling GSTQ the worst national anthen, you obviously havent heard many eastern european ones which are for the most part excessively dirgeful.
Complain about this post
Number 43, never a truer word said on these posts. Education (or lack of) would improve the English understanding of what happened in their past. Having lived in England for 4 years, I was amazed about how little people knew about the history of their own country. But thats not the educational systems fault, if people really wanted to know then they could read up about it, that's if they could find impartial text books I guess, which may also be hard to find in England. A little bit of understanding and feelings for past atrocities is all Irish people want really.
Complain about this post
sounds like sower grapes from ireland
come on england
Complain about this post
I didn't realise that sour grapes made a sound?!?!?
By the way, 'sower'??? 'sower'??? maybe you should go back to school and lean how to write.
Complain about this post
The notorious "Black and Tans" were 40% Scottish. Will Scotland's team be subject to the same questioning of their forebears' role in the former British Empire (which was actually quite considerable)?
Thought not. "Celtic brotherhood" and all that..........
Complain about this post
Post 47, thanks. It was nothing I said with a hope of praise, I was genuine. It's just something I particularly find annoying as an Englishman. There really is (and not just with the institutions) an imperialistic undercurrent to the people of England's attitudes. What I find most disturbing is that we feel it's "un-English" to let go. (How many English do you see shouting about us having the "biggest Empire"). Also, the fact we're the only country on the planet to debate whether we should celebrate out Englishness (also arrogance because no one else cares), but because we ignore so many problems we've committed. Most nations have negatives, but regardless of the negatives you can still admit and be proud. Take Germany in the recent football World Cup. The British media say we shouldn't ever forget what the Germans done, yet the British media slate the Irish for not forgetting. It's hypocrisy. That is what I have a problem with. The English need to come to terms with the s**t they've caused, and when they do, they might receive a better reception abroad.
I've been looking forward to this game for months. It will be A GREAT GAME! I have been reading up on the past situations for the last God knows how many months etc. Ever since I found out England were playing at Croke Park. As a result of my uncle being Irish and myself spending a lot of time in Co Mayo, I have always been prepared and yet very interested in his opinions. I've never dismissed his opinions (a lot of them have been true - and you can't argue with intellect and reason), and also on the account of the fact he's been very inspirational in my upbringing. This is despite some of his sentences starting off with "because of those f***in English" :P. You have to empathise in my opinion. Step back, observe. Put at first hostile opinions in to a rational framework.
PS. My annoyances with the British institutions are personal and nothing I will indulge in haha. Although my grief with England is a certain cultural and an attitude conflict. One which I find peace with in Ireland ironically. I think it's called peace :|!
And yes, despite all this I am a proud Englishman despite my chequered past and genealogy haha. Perspective I think it's called. And the understanding that you can admit your nation caused cr*p. No one is perfect, humans aren't perfect. Don't take offence or look for reasons to justify HORRIFIC acts of a bygone age. Just say, "yes, it was wrong".
I have hope England will win as I've said before :). Blind? Maybe lol.
I've read on a couple of sites that this game will be won and lost in the centres (given England's pack, and the form of Wilkinson and Ellis). Considering D'Arcy's form, and the class of O'Driscoll... I fear, I do :(.
Complain about this post
I love reading all this clap trap from uneducated celtic fools.
The points I would like to make are:
1) Any true rugby fan would appreciate that England wouldn't have won the world cup without MArtin Johnson, so to say they were a one man team is nonsensical.
2) Even if we were to agree to being a one man team, then that one player would have to be pretty amazing to beat the rest of the world wouldn't he?
3) BOD is awesome but will never win the world cup because the irish will bottle it.
4) You tell us to stop living in the past with our "reigning world champs" tag, well why don't you? Stop going on about past atrocities and get on with living in the 21st century.
5) But if you insist on harping on about past atrocities, are we forgetting that he IRA killed hundreds of English people? They are also past atrocities, seems like some selective memories are in action here.
6) We will beat you on Saturday, and France will win the Grand Slam.
7) NZ will win the World Cup.
Thanks
And stop whingeing you Irish No Marks, my god you'll be crying into your guiness on saturday night, moaning about what could've been. Well let me tell you don't worry it never could've been, nor will it ever be, unlike England for whom it has been and will be again.
Croke Park, more like Choke Park.
Complain about this post
Ok blah blah blah. Not wishing to be apathetic to all this but yes, we English are arrogant and are living off past glories (rugby, football, empire etc). And the Irish love milking the >etc.
No doubt JW will have a pint with BOD after the game, or some sports drink with an umbrella in it or whatever it is that pro rugby players drink these days. But I am sure that they, unlike you lot will let the ball and the boot do the talking on the day.
Anybody out there got a life and want to discuss tactics for the day?
Got no time for arm chair politics, but plenty for arm chair rugby coach. Let's go.
Complain about this post
All this pre-game banter is great fun, but meaningless in the big picture - the two teams will settle the arguement on Saturday.
As an Irishman living in the Far East, of course I want Ireland to win; England will never be a pushover, regardless of the stadium, the history of our two nations, etc. To all fellow Irishmen - its game of rugby, and and lets let our team do the talking at Croke Park, they should win for the 4th time in a row, for a multitude fo reasons. Lets honour our English guests, and then beat them as gentlemen. To all English men; you had a superb team 4 years ago, teams ebb and flow with time, just as yours had. Be proud of the 2003 WC team, and re-build to that level once again.
By the way, can I explain something to #50 and to all who listen - from an Irish point of view, there really is no "Celtic Brotherhood" as you might believe - we dont see the Welsh or Scots as any closer to us than we do the English. I suspect there is a tendancy amongst the Irish to feel a bit warmer to them, as their media and Blog contributors tend to be a little less insufferably arogant; just be a little more gracious in defeat.
Complain about this post
To No.50. It's SCOTS not Scottish. COME ON IRELAND!
Complain about this post
I admit to being somewhat saddened at many of the contributions to this current blog. Indeed the colourful language in some of the contributions makes me wonder what the moderator is doing. (Victoria - get out the razor/wax or Imac!)
Having been to Dublin on a number of occasions to support England and see us win and lose the one thing that has stood out has been the genuine warmth shown by the true Irish Rugby supporter. Generous in Victory and magnanimous if disappointed in defeat.
Past differences in the early and late 20th Century and the atrocities at the time of the Potato famine are things of the past - not forgotten but in the past. Down to politicians and not the general rugby public.
As I have commented on previous blogs my heart says England but my head says Ireland by a couple of points. It will be close because England are improving and have a few genuine leaders and form players in the side. Ireland have the edge at Centre and probably the back row.
Sadly come the World Cup I can see no further than the Blacks although France playing at home, Australia and England probably will compete - England will be more settled and refreshed. I cant see any of the home nations doing much.
Complain about this post
My post was aimed at the original post no. 6 which then disappeared.
The idea of a homogenous celtic "tribe" that exclusively populated Ireland, Scotland and Wales and gives them a completely seperate ethnic identity to what is now England is a complete myth.
It helps the more uneducated with their chips to trot it out though.
Complain about this post
The English, the English, the English are best...
Incredible comments here, where the English appear to be little spoiled boys.
In France, people tell you that rugby is different from other sports, and teaches you moral values, including fair play, things like clapping when the opposition scores a good try, it's all about drinking that pint with the opposing fans. It's only entertainment, great entertainment, and at the end of the day, your life hasn't changed if you lose.
Also, you never really know in rugby, the bounce of the ball, a knock-on...
Ireland are clearly favourites, great attacking rugby, but if England play their 'boring' game with Wilko (nearly a pity Eng have him in a way), scoring all the points, then we will be robbed of the entertainment factor. England backs are incapable of running, they have no pace when they receive the ball. Farrell? Who's that? I still don't understand the hype about him, maybe I'll be proved wrong on Sat, but up to now he's been playing like a forward. I don't care who wins, I'm just worried England are back to their old ways of forward play. I hope their defence is up to scratch, what will they do when BOD D'Arcy etc are on the rampage? Even the Italian attack was too much for them. I think English players and fans are disillusionned, a bit like us in the 2002 football WC...
Complain about this post
England will relish the game on Saturday with a team building a inner belief to take into the World Cup,with an abundance of talent.Ireland however will be questioning themselves and with heaps of pressure I belive will conspire to emasculate a potentially decent team and show up the weaknesses-Strngers decesion making,O'Garas temprement,the front rows lack of grunt and the knowledge that the recent Leicester "Job" will do for them.England will have to up the gears ,something that has been missing but they are quite capable of,so England by 5 after a few hairy moments.
Complain about this post
To all you English know it alls (know nothing about rugby), the talk of Ireland having played a development side since the World Cup, is rubbish. The fact is without Jonny Wilkinson, you are a development team. Yes there are others, that have retired, but so called quality players have taken their place. But with Jonny, you've got someone who can score points, at last. Take Jonny out of the Scotland match, you'd have lost. Take him out of the Italy match, you could have been beaten again. Great tries from Billy Whizz, and i hope he's better for Sat. (You at least need to be competitive.) Jonny's not fully back, you'll see, when he comes up against the like of Neil Best in the contact. Ireland by 10 points on Sat at least. And to the few idiots that have written about English historical superiority over Ireland, you need to grow up. It's that sort of arrogance that has fuelled the Irish hatred for you over the centuries. You really should know better. The future's green. Ireland and France to battle it out for the Championship. England will lose in Dublin and Cardiff, although i expect them to win over France at Twickenham. The Future's Green!
Complain about this post
for all of you passionate irish gentlemen might i suggest a little strategy that might help to alleviate your pain on saturday evening
you can back england at approximately 2.25/1 on the betting exchanges so an investment of, say, £50 would give you a return of £112.50 when england win (for those of you who live outside dublin £5 yields £11.25). at least this would buy you a good few pints of arthur's finest to cheer you up a bit (and, of course, a bit more energy to blame the ref and how you were robbed etc.)
i hope this is helpful
Complain about this post
People keeps saying England are a one man team 'it's because of Jonny you won' but if Ireland win its a 'team effort', nothing to do with BOD then? No England have not done well in recent six nations in terms of positioning but if you look at the results we've done ok. In 2004 it was a close run thing 2005 we lost to Wales (grand slam champions) by 2 points in the dying minutes, France by 1 point where Hodgeson missed about 4 penalties, Ireland too was dodgy as Cueto scored a perfectly good try that was disallowed (just as Jonny was given one when his foot was out) its not like we've been totally rubbish. Winning is a habit and so unfortunately is losing however we've won 2 from 2 and we've got world cup winners and Grand slammers scattered all over the pitch, we can even afford to drop world cup winners.
We had an asy route to the final in 2003 did we? Ok well beating South Africa, Wales, France and Australia must be easy, so easy Ireland haven't managed it. Plus people seem to forget we'd beaten New Zealand and Australia in their own back yard that summer! So I think you'll find we beat everyone worth beating that year and before. Match it and maybe we'll take some critisism from the Irish.
Complain about this post
Ever heard a great English heroine called "Boadicea Queen of the Iceni Celts". They were based in East Anglia. Yes, there really is such a thing as an English Celt. This rallying of the Scots, Welsh and Irish as Celts against the non-Celtic English is a joke.
Complain about this post
JW is seen as the keystone of England because he is one of the worlds best players, if not the best. BOD is Irelands key player and the rubbish that e need JW to kick is cack! AF can kick as well as he did for league.
If so many Irish have hatred for the English why are so many of them living the life in the England?
Complain about this post
Some comments here are incredible. Either there are loads of wind up merchants or some people are dangerously deluded. I for one have yet to be convinced that England are any better than they were last year when they started with a massive victory at Twickenham, followed by a less convincing performance against Italy before losing the next 3 matches.
Sure Wilkinson is back and he is a very good kicker, but the whole team needs to improve and if wilkinson gets injured again (which is pretty likely) where will they be then? Saturday is a very good game beacuse it is the first real test of the new England set up. They could win, but equally likely, they could fall apart as they did in Paris last year. Only after Saturday will we have a true picture of the state of English and Irish rugby, and I think many people here will be having humble pie for dinner!!
Complain about this post
This is the worst thread ever. Arrogant and ignorant English vs arrogant and ignorant Irish. Crack on chaps.
Now is there a thread talking about rugby anywhere round here?
Complain about this post
Surrypuma - That is the most stupid post I have ever read on this blog and that is saying something.
15 people posting rubbish on this forum under various pseudonyms is somehow representative of mainstream Irish opinion?.
I put it to you that you are a complete halfwit.
Complain about this post
Yea yea yea we will walk meekly into Croke, take our punishment and go away with our tails between our legs with the mighty Irish singing behind us.......but then again the prospect of 0 and 2 at Croke what a laugh...
Complain about this post
hegjem
Another armchair supporter? Fair play to you.
Complain about this post
22
Losing 3 times in a row to a country with a pick about 1/10 (approx) of yours is very very embarassing...it would be like Ireland losing 3 times in a row to the isle of man...
24
J Robinson is crap, can you imagine him up against Shane Horgan?? Only one winner there...all JR is good for these days is scoring trys against 2nd rate teams like Italy, every time he gets the ball he does the same little shimmy and gets nowhere.
Complain about this post
60.
Honest Tim in Cork they would call you a Langer of the highest order!!
Complain about this post
Just how fickle the English Rugby team and fans are amazes me! Despite being abolutley terrible for the past 4 seasons, now that jonny wilkinson is back and they beat the two worst teams in the 6 nations (and not convincingly) you are back into World Champions mode.
When was the last time World Champions were ranked 7th in the World? haha.
Complain about this post
The quality of English text books. Uncles who swear. The ethnic make up of the black & tans. Really insightful rugby debate here everyone. Takes me back to the glory days of Rugby Special....
Complain about this post
The singing of God save the Queen will cause certain people discomfort on Saturday. As a man born of two Irish parents in England I hope we are mature enough as a nation not to disrespect the English anthem. We should enjoy the occasion. Congratulate the GAA on both their stadium and for their help in allowing us to play there,and most importantly win the game. The sporting eyes of northern Europe if not the sporting world will be on Dublin. Let's show them we are a modern proud nation. Booing any other nations anthem will just embarrases us and ruin a very special occasion. I would urge all Irish people enjoy the day and let's me respectful and adult about this.
Complain about this post
I am looking forward to the game, I think it will be pretty tight, but I fancy Ireland will be a bit too strong for England. Ireland have the ability to mix the game up a bit more than England's one dimensional game plan that we have seen so far in the 6N.
I am sorry NB is not starting I think he would bring more than SE to this game, but I am sure he will make a apperance. Expect the Irish backrow leamy and wallace running at wilo to get him to tackle, if there is a weakness there they will find it.
I think the forward battle will be fairly even, I think we will see a lot of lineouts for both sides. Ireland have the edge in the backs, the english centres have to find a side step between them (one line break in the whole italian game was rubbish at this level, expect the Irish defence to be a lot tougher).
I don't think this game will be will be the highest scoring but the Irish will score a couple of tries (at least I hope), all of the english points will come from wilo's boot (JR is a big loss, the only english back with pace).
Ireland by 5
Complain about this post
Tipperary’s popular half-back and captain, Michael ’Mick’ Hogan, who
had travelled to Dublin for an afternoon’s sport to play in a friendly
against Dublin, lay motionless on the greensward of Croke Park, blood
oozing from his gunshot wounds, cut down by a British machine gun. So
too Jane Boyle, dressed in her Sunday best, who had attended the match
with her fiance and was to have got married five days later, and
William Scott, a fanatical 14-year-old ’Dub’ or Dublin supporter.
A couple of yards away lay 11-year-old William Robinson and
10-year-old Jerome O’Leary - good friends, Gaelic football fanatics
and defenceless children who were bleeding to death after being gunned
down by the so-called tough men of the Black and Tans. At one point
during an afternoon of madness, the Tipperary and Dublin teams were
lined up in the centre of Croke Park to be executed summarily by the
British but mercifully a high-ranking, although unidentified, officer
intervened and screamed that there had been enough killing on this
awful day. November 21, 1920. Bloody Sunday. The first Bloody Sunday,
that is. The second followed 52 years later in Derry.
In all, 14 Irish citizens were killed by British forces at Croke Park
on Bloody Sunday and 80 badly wounded - including Hogan’s Tipperary
colleague Jim Egan - which goes a long way to explaining why the
ground is so strongly identified with Irish nationalism. Part shrine,
part cathedral, a living historical monument to the freedom fight.
Hill 16 - the massive terrace that holds up to 15,000 fans - is built
on the rubble of Sackville Street (renamed O’Connell Street when the
British moved out) after the uprising of Easter 1916 had left the city
centre in a state of some disrepair. The rubble was carted out to
Croke Park, piled high and grassed over.
It is a mercifully rare, probably unique, occurrence for a sportsman
to be shot dead by British troops on the field of play, so the story
of Mick Hogan warrants re-telling. Indeed, just telling - it is
doubtful if anybody this side of the Irish Sea without Irish
antecedents has ever even heard it. Strangely, it was never included
in history lessons in British schools.
Hogan was born at Currasilla near Nine-Mile-House in Tipperary in 1896
into an old and much respected farming family. A talented sportsman
who played for the Grangemockler GAA club, he rose quickly though the
junior ranks to captain Tipperary, and like most able-bodied men in
the area he joined the local volunteers to help in the underground
fight to rid Ireland of the occupying British Army. Indeed, as a
natural leader, he had been elected company commander of the
Grangemockler Volunteers on the Friday night before the Tipperary team
travelled up to Dublin by train the next day.
The Irish War of Independence (1919-21) had meant that all Gaelic
sport had been banned by the occupying forces throughout 1920 but by
the autumn a few inter-county matches had been allowed and Tipperary’s
game against Dublin - undoubtedly the two top sides of the era - had
been organised hastily to raise funds for the families of those who
had been imprisoned by the British. It was undeniably an overt
political act during a period of extreme tension. While that does not
excuse anything that followed, it does place the incident in context.
Bloody Sunday took place soon after the death of hunger striker
Terence McSwiney and execution of Kevin Barry, and the Irish
Republican Army were looking for revenge. Early on the morning of the
match, in an operation planned by Michael Collins, a hit squad - the
12 Apostles - staged a series of raids on British intelligence
officers in Dublin who were collectively known as the Cairo Gang. An
hour later 14 covert intelligence officers had been killed and six
badly wounded.
The British Army, based at Collinswood, considered how to retaliate
and thoughts turned immediately to Croke Park where a crowd of between
15,000 and 20,000 people was expected. In fact, however, Dublin was in
such turmoil that day that the figure was nearer 10,000. The Army
later argued that such a crowd was probably the best hiding place for
the assassination squad and their intention was to search everybody as
they left after the game. Anybody not cooperating would be shot dead
on the spot.
It was a combined exercise between the Police (RIC) and the Army
(Black and Tans), with the latter taking the lead. A spotter aircraft
was dispatched to fly over Croke Park where the game had started
half-an-hour late, and three armoured vehicles circled the ground.
However, contrary to Hollywood’s version in the film of Michael
Collins - Liam Neeson taking the starring role - a tank did not burst
on to the field itself.
On the approach of the soldiers and police, the turnstile attendants
raised the alarm, a stampede ensued and the armed forces rushed
straight into the ground and on to the pitch, firing indiscriminately.
In the chaos it is doubtful if they actually targeted Hogan as such,
although Army officials would probably have known of his background
and that of other players. They were simply reckless as to whom they
killed.
Later that night two IRA officers, Dick McKee and Paedar Clancy, were
arrested for their alleged part in the morning assassinations and shot
dead at Dublin Castle while "trying to escape". Meanwhile Hogan’s
remains, accompanied by the team, arrived in Clonmel on the Wednesday
after the game. Thousands joined the funeral procession to
Grangemockler.
He was buried in his Tipperary football suit, the coffin was draped
with the Tricolour and lowered into the grave by the men who had
played beside him on that fateful day.
Thirty years later the main stand at Croke Park was named in his
honour and one of the massive new stands retains his name. They say
sport and politics shouldn’t mix but on this day they were indivisible
- which explains why Croke Park will always be more than just a sports
stadium and Mick Hogan is more than just a Tipperary football player.
Complain about this post
A famous manager here is quoted as saying; " a pat on the back is only inches away from a kick up the arse!" which aptly sums up the fine line between success and failure.
I hope that Ireland don't squander all the good work of the autumn by posting back to back defeats to 2 'beatable' teams.
I also hope there's no trouble on the way to the stadium for any fans. Visiting supporters please look at a map and plan your way to the stadium. Stay away from "de flats".
Complain about this post
i love the bitterness, this occasion has munster v tigers all over it we took that away from you and adding the 'choke at croke'will be a jolly weez too.
Complain about this post
Where the hell is Mike Catt? The only player in english rugby to compliment Wilkinsons game. I believe Mike had a storming game against Bath and thoroughly outplayed any former team mates. He also controlled the game strategically and set up most of the tries. I believe Ashton was there and yet he will insist on picking two centres with a combined weight of a dump truck. They unfortunately play one style of game and I can assure you its not the thinking type.Bring the Catt back and add an extra dimension that English rugby so lacks.
Complain about this post
Having just read George Chuter's comments on the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ website, as well as hearing how the RFU have asked Conor to give them a background to the occasion, I am encouraged by the attitude of the England players and the RFU in coming to Croke Park. It will be an historic occasion and in spite of posts on these blogs England are aware of the history and the significance of the GAA's move to allow the games to be plaid in their truely amazing staduim. Im tired of the anthems debate, so GSTQ will be played in Croker (as it was during the special olympics) the media hype surrounding the anthem issue is just that. MEDIA HYPE. I cant see the anthem being boo'd, rugby in Ireland has been about inclusion and respect, I cant see that changing.
n to the game, I think Ireland are about 7 points better than England, we have been for 3 years now, I believe that this will continue. I say lets welcome the English, beat them off the Croker turf and wish them all the best against France. (lets not forget we need them to beat the french for us to have any chance of a championship)
Complain about this post
I'm a bit worried about the "respectful attitude" there giving croke park they should see it as anyother rugby stadium and not let the away factor affect them. All they need ro do is get on the pitch play 80 minutes of solid, hard rugby not let the crowd effect them and they will come away with a win
Complain about this post
well said kevin mcnamara. be assured that the nonsense written above is not representative of most irish people..most are too busy driving their SUVs and complaining about house prices to care one way or the other
Complain about this post
Look, this really is getting a bit ridiculous - Ireland are clearly the better team now, having been fairly settled for the last four years some very good players have grown together into something approaching a world-challenging team. But, (and please don't accuse me of hanging on to past England glories - if people disparage what was a genuinely world-class team we will defend) you are no-where near where England were this time before the last WC. We swept all before us, home and away, beat everyone in the world consistently for 2 years and humbled Europe. We also had strength in depth in the squad, something unfortunately ireland can't claim at the moment.
No-one sensible is saying we're favourites, or better than you at the moment. All we are saying is that don't compare yourselves to us 4 years ago, because that's laughable, and don't get your hopes up for the WC - you've no chance.
Complain about this post
Interesting that there seem to be a number of people here who are saying that England have beaten the two worst teams in the championship - presumably they missed Scotland beating Wales by a larger margin than Ireland managed a couple of weeks ago. Ireland have some excellent players, not least their centres and David Wallace, but they have not played particularly well in the championship thus far and will also need to raise their game to beat England. England have not been really tested so far so until Saturday evening we cannot truly assess their progress under Brian Ashton but Ireland have been tested and, I'm afraid, were found wanting.
Complain about this post
I am English and I am sick of all these idiots harping on about the 2003 WRC. Yes we won it but that as with Irelands game against France and Englands game against Italy are now confined to the history books.Form means nothing. The 30 players hitting the field on saturday at Croke park will all be totally focused on the next 80 minutes.Not the last 80 minutes.It all adds up to an intersesting game. Ireland dont have the luxury of Lansdown Park and are very settled. However Croke park hasnt been good to them yet.England are under dogs and are rebuilding having only played together twice. England will be out to make a statement and a few careers could be made or broken on saturday.
I will be in the Tivoli in Cheltenham with my Welsh, Irish, English, Australin, SA and cornish mates we will be have a shed full and will also have a top sing song. Please stop all this jingoistic nationalist crap between the English and the Celts.Long live Rugby.May the best team win. Come on England take it too them!!!
Complain about this post
Ireland should win, England could win. The last 3 games have been pretty close, though England may be no further forward than in 2004 whereas Ireland have made progress. Ireland by 12. People assuming JW will punish Ireland with the boot are forgetting RoG isn't a bad kicker either.
On the nationalist stuff, I think 20-something English people like myself are all too aware of what our governments have done to people around the world. This is why we feel uneasy in displaying pride in our country (story of landlady been refused extended license and england flags on st george's day, but no problem for similar celebrations on st patrick's day - there are many stories like these).
I barely remember been taught much glorifying british/english history at school, even WWI & WWII weren't taught, the armada was about it. My neighbour is a staunch Irish republican from Cork where Michael Collins lived and he's amazed at how much we English dislike ourselves before other nations, the north/south divide being his example.
To the Celts out there, we're not all arrogant, just maybe a bit ignorant - there's a world of difference.
Complain about this post
When first reading these logs, I thought I'd gone onto the wrong site. I thought was on the Political Sicence website!!!! Guys this is rugby lets talk about rugby, after the match then you can debate the ramifications dating back to before the 1600's.
I for one would like to see David Strettle on the pitch, afterall he played awesome for the Saxons for beating, sorry, destroying Ireland A. I am concerned about our front 3, not the obvious choice but with injuries we have to play with what we got. I'm hoping for the Wilko factor and his boot, it will be a close game, if England do win I'd say about 21-17, if they lose it could be Ireland with a clear win, which I pray not.
Complain about this post
I have to admit to being slightly bored by all the talk of the signifcance of the game in Croke Park. Yes the English national anthem will be played in a stadium with huge histroic significance to us Irish but were in the 21st century and these things happened in the past and no one present on Saturday was ever involved. Focus on the game I say.
With respect to the past thats where England's world cup victory is the reality is they have lost the last 3 games to Ireland and all the talk of Leicester's win in Thomond park is over rated. Munster after all have won twice away to Leicester, I don't recall those games ever having a bearing on an Ireland v England game. So Ireland to win but it will be close England aren't as good as thier press make out but their not that bad either.
Complain about this post
It is strange, how often a team starts to build a reputation and, when on the verge of fulfilling their potential, they fail. How many times have New Zealand done it, before 2003? Ireland seem to be doing it currently. The post-World Cup England team were supposed to be good but they were shocking.
I just feel like Ireland seem to be lacking self-confidence because of the huge expectation. England fans have become used to the shambolic displays they saw under three years of Robinson and will not forget that soon. Hopefully, England will have a cohesive enough pack to take on Ireland and Farrell and Tindall (although I read somewhere that Tindall is injured) can contain D'arcy and O'Driscoll.
Complain about this post
#73
At last, some sense. I am English, but grew up with my ex brother-in-law and his family from Ireland. I am sure that the Irish fans will respect GSTQ and would be very disappointed to hear booing. The players and coach have been at pains to point out the historical significance of playing at Croke Park.
Guys, forget history and politics. The English have behaved dreadfully in the past as have the Irish. But that was only due to a minority of people. The rest of us just want a decent game and a decent pint of the black stuff afterwards. The Pubs in Dublin will be full of supporters of both sides and there will be a great craic no matter who wins.
Complain about this post
69.
Did you catch the Wasps V Sale match at the weekend at all? I am not saying that Jason Robinson is necessarily going to make the difference between winning and losing on his tod, but his form is very good. Off the kick off on Sunday he cut through the Wasps defence as if it wasn't there and then he did a couple more times for a laugh. He was there star player, fair enough they lost, but wasps fielded a strong team.
So to say he is crap is ridiculous, and shows you have no idea.
Complain about this post
ENGLAND EXPECTS, that their team will probably lose this weekend but a good performance against Ireland will encourage everyone that we are back on track.
I have been really encouraged by England this year, they turned on the attacking style against Scotland and the Italy performance looked fairly solid defensively. You should not judge Italy until tournament end because I feel that their front row fancies a scalp this year. Why Berbizier felt it necessary to bench them for 60 mins against France only he can answer.
England for the first time in 3+ years have no expectation upon them to win they are recognised as the third best team in the NH and rightly so. If they return without a win and a poor performance they will come under pressure. If the performance is good but we still lose, Brian Ashton can put a tick in the "progress" box. A win and everyone will be talking about WC contention.
England will put in a professional perfomance against Ireland and that is all that English fans can expect. Whats to feel any pressure about?
Ireland on the other hand have never been able to cope with the "favourite" thing. For years they have had to take rare success from the diminishing scraps offered by England France and the SH teams.
Now they are expected to win in the style of the Australia perfomance every time they take to the field.
Their problem is that the Australian pack is only just in the world top 10 and if you consistently cough up possession to the Ireland backs you will receive a hiding. The Irish pack performance though just means that they are better than Australia. Their true position will be judged at the end of this tournament.
It is Ireland that are under pressure here not England. Ireland should win, England might.
Complain about this post
The majority of posts on this forum are vile and disgusting.
Getting back to the rugby, as an Aussie, Ireland have an exceptionally talented team (with O'Driscoll) and a very good team without. Last week, they choked for the first 20 minutes with the occassion I believe getting the better of them. They lost to arguably the third best team in the world(who are always at their best when expectation is low). I don't see them making this mistake at the weekend and I expect the Irish to win by 6-10 points, though it will be a great spectacle.
Come the World Cup, the Aussies will come good at the right time, beating anybody we come up against (NZ, Ireland and France)....there's nothing like Australia with their backs against the wall.
Complain about this post
That Martin Corry is such a card. As for Louis Deacon... simply BONKERS!
Complain about this post
Hopefully it'll be a cracking contest this weekend.
I think we (England) really need to show alot more respect to the Irish, they may have lost against the french (minus BOD) but we haven't done a thing since winning the world cup. Last year we started with two wins during a dismal 6 nations. I dont expect that to be the case this year and hopefully the emotions associated with this game will work against the irish. If Faz and Tinds can cope with Darcy and O'driscoll then i think it'll come down to a battle between the two tens and Wilko clearly has the edge over O'Gara.
Complain about this post
Yet again Irish politics and history take over a rugby blog...and I am as guilty as anyone else. As a professional historian, one who actually gets paid to teach and write history, the one thing is obvious...history is written by the winners...and that will be as true on Sunday morning as it is about the history of Ireland and England.
If Ireland win, the bandwagon will once again be rolled out for the media to laud the teams successes and EOS brilliance.
If England win, it'll be a case of we told you so...England are reborn ahead of the WC...Wilko is the greatest...Ireland "choke at croke."
The reality will be somewhere in between. These teams will play a tough competitive game, and on the day the team who makes the fewest mistakes will probably win. They will then go on o their next opponent and try to get the mix right for the RWC...where I doubt either team will make the final. Which as an irishman pains me to no end.
Complain about this post
Jim (post 84),
Needless to say what the Scotland result was, but what does need to be said, is that Wales just didn't turn up against Scotland and if Wales put up a performance against England at Cardiff as they did against the Irish, they will win. Ireland will win in Dublin on Sat, lets be realistic. Ireland are a better team and have been since Jonny kicked the winner in Sydney, and has since amassed Medical Notes that could only compete with War & Peace. Ireland have not reached into the past for old soldiers to come back and show them how to fight, they've progressed, it's not new England. It's woeful, but hopeful England. The HOPE that an end of career League star can do something (AF)who has looked lost so far. And the HOPE that Jonny stays injury free, cos you've got no replacement for him. Perhaps if most of the fly halves in the GP were English, you might have a HOPE for the future. And finally the HOPE that old war dogs can win a new game for the rest of the team who appear to be weak, and playing mediocre rugby. Every man in the Irish team 1-15 has a logical replacement and is at the top of his game.
That's a lot of HOPES in World Cup Year. Hang onto those hopes fellas, because those, and dreams of what's gone, are all you have.
Ask yourself, the best full back in the GP, and EOS is comfortable about leaving him out of the 22. That's spells confidence and a WHOPPIN' for the Red Rose (Nose) Brigade.
Bring it on!
Complain about this post
I have to admit that all this nonsense of who is going to win is tiresome. Why dont we all just wait and see on Sat.
I'm Northern Irish and cant believe the amount of hypocrisy being shown here by various so called Irish rugby fans. All they seem to want to do is harp on about the significance of Croke Park and how the "murderous black and tans" welted everybody in sight.
RE post 75, why does it matter what hapened years ago? He's dead one way or the other, you dont hear English fans complaining about all the atrocities the Irish carried out on the Mainland, Guildford Bombings etc.
Also bear in mind not all the Irish team are from the republic of ireland so dont necessarily hold the same views or have the same emotional attachment to this so called mythical stadium.
Maybe a little less tedium and a little more rugby isthe order of the day.
Complain about this post
ireland to win 19 - 16 :D:D
Complain about this post
I'M SO BORED OF EVERYONE SLAGGING EACH OTHER OFF. It's so dull.
Ireland you're great. England, we were great, went crap and are now getting a bit better. Ireland, you SHOULD beat us on Saturday. England, we COULD beat Ireland on Saturday. As an Englishman living in Wales, this whole experience is starting to turn a bit sour for me.
Complain about this post
91
I was at the game Tom and you're right, JR was a different level. The problem was & is, with Sale and England, is that the support is never quick enough to make full use of his breaks. That may be down to good defending but if you can maintain an impetus the opposition is on the back foot and you've got a chance that quick ball will create the gaps.
Complain about this post
calm down lads, its not england verses ireland on saturday its 30 kids playin' rugby in the park,
hopfully nobody dies
Complain about this post
Having read most of the blogs it saddens me. Sport should not be about politics it should all be about the 2 teams representing their nation and showing respect to their opposition.
Rugby to me has always been a gentlemanly game with both sides after the match applauding each other, having a drink together and appreciating each others performance. And the fans doing the same. This to me has always been the difference beween rugby and other sports (especially football) and long should it continue.
When England won the 2003 WC the Aussies were so nice coming up to you shaking your hand and congratulating you. This is how all fans and team should behave and I believe their is a mutual respect between teams and fans in rugby. This does not mean we want our national team any less to win.
I would love England to win at the weekend against Ireland. Whether this happens is a different matter, but I sure will be in the pub after the match in Ireland having banter with the Irish fans and appreciating the skills of the likes of BOD, JW etc.
Well I say may the best team on the day win!! And long may Rugby be the best sport for the fans and its players!!!
Complain about this post
Cant people just respect the Irish, If you saw 'em play in the autumn you would see that they're a quality side, unlike us English who are only now getting our game back. As long as we respect what Ireland are capable of, we have a chance of beating them,however slim a chance it is!
Complain about this post
England Population: 50.5 million
Wales Population: 3 million
Scot Population: 5 million
Ireland Population combined: 5 million
Looking at the stats above, you would think that any country with a popultion nearly 4 times greater than all the other UK countries combined, would beat the others every time.
RFU also has a larger player base than all the others combined.
However, England are 3 places below Ireland in the world rankings, only 1 above Wales & 2 above Scotland.
I may be wrong but have the English got anything to boast about when it comes to rugby. Not really.
If any of the other countries in the UK/Ireland had these resources, I wouldimagine they would hae won a RWC by now & possibly be competing with the South Hem teams.
The facts are that England are pretty poor at rugby. They should have won 3 World Cups by now. I thank god they haven't though!!!
Complain about this post
OH NO! What'll England do now that it seems Wilko is out for the match? Hamstring problem, Catt has been called up. And Robinson out too it seems......
Seriously though. It'll be sad if Wilko can't play, I was looking forward to seeing how he and Farrell would stand up to our centres.
Complain about this post
The world cup win by England was acheived because England had a squad of about 20 world class players that would have walked into any squad in the world at that time. Yes we may have just beaten Australia in that final, but it was in their own back yard and I would defy anyone to say that Australia didn't raise their game substantially in that final. Anyway that is done, gone, finito, or will be when the mantle of World Champions will no longer be ours in November. As for the kicking world cup England scored 36 tries that year outscoring the Irish, French, Scottish and the newly resurgent Welsh. The only game we didn't score a try in was the Semi and if you remember, conditions weren't ideal.
Now we have 2 or 3 players at the most who are world class (probably being a touch optimistic but bear with me). We are not a one trick pony JW would enhance any side in the world, imagine the All Blacks without Dan Carter it would make a big dent in their side because he is that good. The irish without BOD. There was no super back-line against the French. These players make a difference.
Rugby is a confidence game and it makes a difference when after all the pressure you have someone like JW who will kick the points or a BOD who, when the game is tight will produce that something different to swing the game in your favour. As a forward I know what it feels like at club level when you are bossing a game and the kicker just cannot convert.
England for the last three years have been a poor side and bar the french fiasco a couple of seasons ago, haven't been outclassed against anyone in the 6 nations, so what does that say about the rest of the tournament?
As regards the player issue, Scotland has a bigger population than New Zealand so does that mean they should have a better rugby side, course not. Like many countries, England, Ireland, Scotland have more than one sport to support with their population unlike NZ which is rugby and a bit of cricket. The UK has Football, Cricket, Rugby and Ireland with all the Gaelic Games has to do likewise. Besides which the NZ team has very few genuine New Zealanders in the side, more like Samoan, Fijian, Tongan etc etc.
Saturday will be a big game no doubt about that. There will be pressure, massive pressure on both sides and whoeer will handle it better will probably win the game. For all the banter on here I seriously doubt if there is any supporter, English or Irish would throw away a win by a lucky pushover try in the last minute.
One final point, England are the only home nation left WITH a chance of the GS regardless of how poorly we have played so far.
Complain about this post
Here here William Wright. It's all about the rugby at the end of the day. C'mon Ireland!
Complain about this post
NZ population 3.5 million...what does that tell us.
Complain about this post
Post 99, your logic escapes me!
By your reasoning of the biggest country wins why aren't the US of A the reigning World Champions?
And as for your point about England not really having anything to boast about when it comes to Rugby well - at least we have a World Cup and a few 6 nations grand slams to our name!
Complain about this post
As an Irish fan I really am looking forward to Saturday. I predict a close game all the way to the end. I think Wilko will kick a lot of points for England & Ireland will get 2 tries at least. IT will be a close call! May the best team win. I'm not addressing the political nonsence I read earlier this is a sporting occassion. Hope both teams put 100% into it and let the supporters follow suit. I also hope the England fans enjoy the occassion and yes a minority will boo but the majority of fans will show respect to each other. Come one Ireland!!
Complain about this post
William Wright - you plonker, you absolute buffoon.
Confusing "the Irish" with the IRA. Excellent. Top of the class.
Complain about this post
Population figures... great argument. So why don't the USA beat all of us at rugby? In fact, why aren't the Chinese ruling every sport in the world?
Its simple - because population is irrevelant - its the level of the game's role in the country's culture that matters. Look at New Zealand - population less than Ireland or Scotland, so why aren't the Scottish regularly hammering them? Because NZ is a rugby country, where like Wales, an above average proportion play the game.
England strives to compete with NZ at rugby, Brazil at football and Australia at cricket. If they'd spent the past 100 years striving to beat Australia at football, Brazil at rugby and NZ at cricket, we'd see different results. Nothing to do with population.
Complain about this post
This is just getting so ridiculous now and some people are just embarrassing themselves.
England have a good amount of talent and experience in their squad but they can't put it together and need to mature as a team.
Ireland have a lot of talent within their squad and deserve their place in the world rankings.
That's all that needs to be said.
Should be a good game on Saturday and I can't wait. I'm English but I think Ireland may win by 10.
Complain about this post
Houstie - you're an idiot. Stop giving us all the benefit of what would happen if you had our resources and how many world cups you'd win. You don't and you haven't.
Complain about this post
The only two scorers England have had in the tournement so far are looking doubtful for the match on saturday.
It's a shame really, especially with Ireland back to full strength.
Complain about this post
I would like to see Farrell make some hard yards against Ireland. he has had two games to settle in now and all he has done is provide a satisfactory link performance. A man his size should be challenging the defence especially O'Gara. If not then why not bring Mike Catt back into the fold as his distribution and vision adds another dimension that can change the game. He also compliments Johnny Wilkinson with his good kicking game. It will be interesing to see how Farrell handles the Irish.
Complain about this post
NathanD (no. 106),
Using the USA as an example is pathetic - England are by far the largest rugby-playing nation in the world in terms of players and clubs and have therefore criminally under-achieved over the years.
They also only have ONE 6 Nations Grand Slam, not 'a few'.
Complain about this post
Quite a bit of nonesense being spoken here - let's talk rugby.
England have been poor, by their standards, for while. The autumn tests were awful for them - looked like they had no proper game plan to be honest. Ashton has got them focused and now they look better and the two victories so far hae given them something to build on. Both Italy and Scotland are not that strong, particularly at Twickenham, so England would be wise not to get carried away.
Ireland have looked excellent for a while now - but seem to struggle at times to finish off opposition.
If Ireland can get the ball moving and have a go at England's three-quarters I think they'll win and possibly with a bit to spare. England are in a false state of secruity and probably won't be ready for Ireland. For England to win they'll have to go old school, slow the ball down, kick the corners, drive the maul. Not pretty, but effective. Ireland can play this way too - but it'll lead to a much closer game.
England have proved that they do rely on Wilkinson an awful lot. Looks like he might be injured again? Still confident?
Complain about this post
To post #105, Houstie, you, Sir, are a legend!
Classic. I almost feel a thread on this line in the 606 fora might go down quite well!!
To M.O., are you sure you're not confusing a confident pre-match calm with a subdued depression setting in before the inevitable Hibernian victory on Saturday?
(And I'm only joking, before the rest of you start...)
:-P
Come on YOU BOYS IN GREEN!!!
Complain about this post
For the 3 years leading up to the last world cup England were the best team in the world beating the other top teams on a consistent basis not to mention winning the grand slam in the 6 nations. It's fair to say England are currently not playing the best rugby and sometimes rely on Jonny to keep the score board ticking over but to be fair they lost alot of key influential players after the wolrd cup and its going to take abit of time to rebuild another great side. Until Ireland or in fact any of the other home countries win something special then you really should pipe down, it's perfectic!
Complain about this post
To post #105, Houstie, you, Sir, are a legend!
Classic. I almost feel a thread on this line in the 606 fora might go down quite well!!
To M.O., are you sure you're not confusing a confident pre-match calm with a subdued depression setting in before the inevitable Hibernian victory on Saturday?
(And I'm only joking, before the rest of you start...)
:-P
Come on YOU BOYS IN GREEN!!!
Complain about this post
Post 99 is not about logic but EMOTION....a score of 19-16 has a historic resonance....
:-)
Complain about this post
No offence to the English fans going on about the WC win, but how many players involved on Saturday played in that final? To give us this arrogant we're world champions (which was a well deserved win btw) almost 4 yrs on is just an example of why the Celts enjoy beating you lot. Whether the rest of us have won it or not at this point is irrelevant. For the last 4 years Ireland have been the better team, England are underdogs, and I'm sure that'll be proved again on Saturday.
Complain about this post
i think houstie kind of has a point, England and France have got larger populations and therefore a larger base at which to draw players from and is probably why they have dominated the six nations over time. However there are fluctuations where there aere times when the other teams can compete and even play better (Ureland at the moment Wals in the 70's) but these times fade but france and england stay strong, this is obviously a bad patch for england at the moment and not many people will disagree we are not playing great rugby. Where as the Irish have assembled the best squad they've ever had. However once they lose key outsanding players (ie O'driscoll) theyare back to mediocrity. A great IEnglish team would hammer the worst Irish teams. Where na awful English team have a chance against the best team Ireland have ever assembled on Saturday.
Complain about this post
By that argument China and India would win everything at every sport and nobody else would get a look in. What makes people win is drive, ambition, development, and modern investment in sport. England have won 1 world cup, but compare their national sense of sporting identity with Australia, New Zealand and South Africa and you see why they haven't won more World Cups. These countries have the ambition and drive to win, do Ireland, Wales and Scotland compare?.... you decide
Complain about this post
totally unrelated topic but at least it's pertinent to rugby unlike many of the above blogs. why on earth don't we allow argentina into the 6N? obviously we can't count on the tri-nations budging and we seem to have the more progressive tournamnet anyway with the recent inclusion of italy. besides, most argentinian players are based in europe as opposed to NZ,OZ and SA.
I'm Irish so this isn't a plea founded on nationalistic bias and presumptions of self-worth. rather, i can see it being tremendously beneficial to competition. in recent tournamnets they've always managed to pose ireland serious problems - perhaps more so than all but the top-tier teams. truth be told the prospect of meeting them in the "group of death" in RWC'07 is serioulsy attacking the nerves of both ireland and france due to the enormity of the task of getting out of the group stages. and these sentiments coming from two teams that are arguably no.s 2 and 3 in the world at present! moreover, france have a sketchy track record against them at best. and remember their recent victory in england?
and the problem of where to locate their home games? i'm sure most teams wouldn't say no to an additional home game every year until an alternative solution is found. and from what we've seen this year the home game factor may not prove to be such an advantage to many teams!! as to the solution, i feel i'm not qualified to offer anything relaistic as of this moment but i'm sure somebody will be. could it be based on benevolence eschewed from the european countries to whom most can attributed to as regards the development of rugby in argentina? my knowledge of this aspect of history is limited but i know that traditionally the country hosted more italian, irish and french immigrants as opposed to the other tournament nations. any suggestions or addtional comment?
anyway, to the pumas! and that they may be shown the respect they desrve. (leinster fans have often queried whether contepomi has irish grandparnets!!!)
oh, and ireland to win by 17 points on saturday. a try within 15 mins won due to turnover ball will see the english watch on in shock. and their dull game plan will never inspire the confidence they need for the remainder...
Complain about this post
While Ireland have been playing very well over the past 2 seasons, the first 40mins v Aust in autumn was prob the best an Irish team has played and will play for a long time, it has been sporadic at times and not when it counts (silverware). There are an aweful lot of 'almost' and 'nearly' comments scrolling through this blog. Nearly beating Australia in 2003 RWC is not beating Australia. Giving the ABs a run last year is not beating the ABs. The trophy cabinet is still pretty bare. Similarly, England cannot rest on the laurels of 3.5yrs ago (ala '66). It was a long time ago and both the game and the team's have evolved and changed. The Irish backs are playing the most attractive NH rugby at the moment however the Irish pack might struggle to wrest possession from a brutish English 8. Jonny's boot will keep it tight but the Irish should have it
Complain about this post
i feel that there are many people on here who have no clue about rugby...i mean #69 said that jason robinson is crap, thats just wrong...he has been in blinding form lately and he would leave shane horgan for dead..yes shane horgan is powerful but billy whizz is not so weak himself..england are looking good to beat ireland on saturday..will be a major blow if we lose wilkinson though, then catt will be on the bench and thats the last thing we need!!
Complain about this post
In reply to redpirate & NathanD.
We know that both Scotland & England are primarily footballing nations. You'll also notice that I said the number of registered rugby players in England is more than double what the other nations have. The English have more people playing rugby, at every level, than all the other UK teams. They also have more money through sponsorship, TV rights etc etc.
I didn't say that the biggest country wins. The point I was making is that if Ireland, Scotland & Wales had the same player base & resources, they would trounce England every time.
These teams regularly punch well above their weight & then arrogant idiots come on & say 'England won some 6 nations titles & the RWC'. So what, if my country had the same resources I would have expected them to have won the RWC too.
The South Hem teams have large player bases to match England & rugby is a bigger sport down there. THey just play the game better than the English that's all.
Also, saying that the USA should win all the time shows how small your brain is NathanD. They may be a huge country but rugby is a very minor sport there.
So, I'll say again, English rugby supporters have nothing to boast about. In relative terms they are a very poor team.
Complain about this post
Nathan D, your logic escapes me. The US of A do not boast themselves as being a rugby nation, let alone the birthplace of the sport with the deepest rugby heritage. Population doesn't really come into it there. And the reason England scraped a WC and a few GS6Ns is out of all the countries in the NH, having that great rugby heritage we mentioned, England has the biggest pool of players to pick from (and to develop, if they'd only structure it properly, instead of paying foreign players wages and pensions)DDuuuHHH!!!!!
Don't worry mate, if you have any other problems working these taxing posers out, just post them for us, and we'll all do our best to keep you from looking silly. Not saying we'll succeed mind. Ireland by 10+
Complain about this post
Post 105
Good job China don't play then (population 1,313,973,713) or India for that matter.
Sure to give us all a kicking.
Complain about this post
Thom Mills I believe you're th one who is challenged in the brain cell dept.
As for the drivel Paul came out with about England striving to compete with NZ at rugby,Brazil at football & Australia at cricket. Don't make me laugh. You can strive all you like but you fail miserably.
I'll say again. I only put the population figures in to display the difference in numbers. England has more people playing rugby than all the others yet they remain useless at the game.
Complain about this post
Is Wilkinson's injury real or is it "headgames"?
I hope he plays as the mdia will trot out his absence as an excuse should England lose...much the way many of my Irish compatriots have done with the absence of BOD against the French.
At this level, the absence of one player should not dictate the outcome...if we look at the AB's we can see the importance of developing depth in all positions. Not for them the excuses of development teams or cobbled together squads. Whatever 15 they field seems to be competitive...a situation that the NH (except for maybe France) can only dream of.
Complain about this post
I didn't want to drag politics into this, but others ahve done so. I will adress only one point, and that is this whole: "the IRA have done bad things aswell."
Yes they have, but the IRA, unlike the B&Ts, were not a government organisation.
In the end it comes down to the two teams, normally Ireland v England games have been very good. With the Irish less likely to freak out over beating England than the Scots or Welsh, [it may have something to do with us winning independance! ;)]
I expect an Ireland win, but we have not played to our best.
Also the amount of arrogant English pople here is astounding, you win two matches [against arguably two of the easier teams] and it's all "WC Champions!!"
I want Ireland to win here, England to beat France [though France pulverising the English might be worth it, so I can imagine the look on a few people's faces here!]
Complain about this post
Ireland By 15. BOD and Darcy to have a field day
Complain about this post
Why have the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ never referred to the real historical significance of Croke Park in the build up to this game? I believe the British public should know the atrocities that were perpetrated by British troops over 80 years ago!!
Complain about this post
Is it just me, but are all these "bloggers" just wiriting in a way to stir up hostilities between England and every other country in the British Isles? I have to say I don't really like the tone of any of them Irish Six Nations Bloggers included- cop on!
For the record I can't rate Ireland's chances of beating England higher, this will be the first time Brian Ashton's men have a real test and now we will see just how much they come on. On the other hand I if England turn up to a lazy Ireland then the boys in green will regret it.
Complain about this post
Wow... so many arrogant English comments in one blog. Quite impressive. Some of the Irish protestations are a little over-emotional to respond effectively. But this guy sums it up nicely (https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/columnists/article2294052.ece). Ask the world, noone really likes the way England does business and some of the comments above really demonstrate why.
Complain about this post
ALL ----
Englands registered Rugby Union players stand at around 1 million , by far the largest rugby playing population in the world
Wales has 42,000, Ireland has 100,000, France about 100,000 too, Scotland is the lowest at about 20 - 30, 000 i think.
As for outright titles & Slams
England 25 12
Wales 23 9
France 15 8
Scot 14 3
Ire 10 1
In relation to the playing population, it could be said that the Welsh have been the most successful , and the English are the biggest nderachievers........crikey, with that population you should win the world cup and 6 nations every time.
Ireland should win tomorrow, heavily if England r without Wilko. Expect a big game from the Irish pack and O'driscoll the greatest center ever to have a great game
C'mon the boys in green at Croke, the Welsh will be cheering you on!!
Complain about this post
There is so much energy wasted on what's happened in the past...
I would like Ireland to win because they're capable of playing better rugby but this will only happen if they focus on the game and don't let England grind them down as is their usual game plan...
Let's just hope that we see a decent enough game of rugby without the dreariness which seems to be England's trademark in rugby.
Complain about this post
ladies&gents please enough aboutthe political yesteryears wrong doings(i was born in England the sixties of west-indian parentage so dont even go there).This is a game of rugby in the 21st century between 30 professinal players and back room staff who are aware of the ground breaking significance playing this match in such a staduim.Can Ireland win on saturday and go on to emulate England in 2003 to a WC victory?I dont think they can somehow on both accounts despite their current form the pressure will be to much.To be the best you have to beat the best regardless pretty or not.Being a nearly men is failure.The Kiwis are the tops at the moment,but come to the WC the Boks,Aussies,will be no mugs as like England,been there,seen it,won it.I hope England play well regardless of winning (which i hope and are capable of)or lose,but most importantly this will gauge how far the rebuilding process is taking shape.If Ireland do win however on saturday i still wont be convinced they have enough in the tank to win the WC and be hounoured like the GREAT TEAMS OF THE PAST.
Complain about this post
Post 131-Stephen O'H-you wrote that unlike the Black and Tans the IRA were not a government organisation; that is historically inaccurate. The IRA was the official state army of the Irish Republic which was enacted by the first Dáil in 1919-which was democratically elected, securing the majority of seats on the Island with the exception of Antrim. The Black and Tans were an illegal organisation sent by the British Government to usurp the Dáil and enforce British Rule which had never been accepted or invited in the first place by the Irish people-the so called 'Irish' parliament which established the Act of Union cannot count as it barred catholics i.e the indigenous Gaelic population from participation, it was effectively a colonist talking shop and about as relevant to Ireland as a british Raj parliament would be to the Hindus. The 1921 Anglo-Irish treaty dissolved the democratic 32 Irish Republic and created a 26 county free state which recognised the English crown as head of State-this was ratified by only 7 votes in the Dáil. The majority of the Army (IRA) rejected the treaty and the vote as illegitimate due to its acceptence under duress i.the threat of 'immediate and terrible war' and chose to uphold their original objectives which were undertaken without duress i. defend the Republic from all enemies both foreign and domestic-the free state forces(mainly former RIC, Redmondite WWI vets with the aid of British equipment and troops proceeded to smash the IRA in the following 'civil' war and since then it has been an 'illegal' organisation. Sorry to drag the politics and the history lesson into the forum but that needed to be rectified and as regards the Croke Park incident itself-there can be no comparison between Irish State forces eliminating foreign Intelligence operatives during a time of war with an army of occupation shooting up a football match. The Germans were made remove the swastika from their flag and change the words to Deutschland uber Alles, the Japanese were also made change their flag. Even the Americans tried to make the Iraqi's change their flag recently during that illegal invasion in which the Uk partook (so much for turning over a new leaf and saying let by gones be by gones). Is it so unreasonable then given 'best' international practice that Irishmen find the flying of the Union Jack and the singing of God Save the Queen (a song about hammering the Gaelic population of Scotland)anywhere in our Country) 'controversial', and especially while British troops continue to occupy the North eastern six counties (the peace process doesnt make the occupation acceptable or democratic, the six counties themselves being a gerrymandered artificial construct using the descendants of colonists brought in the wake of the ethnic cleansing of Ulster to back up british military forces)Furthermore the Queen of England still carries the Irish Harp on her coat of Arms which is highly offensive. Under normal circumstances the English team should be wholly welcome like any other nation including their supporters but any attachments to the imperial empire of the past first needs to be severed. Why should English people have to carry the baggage of history's war criminals? and be left wondering why everywhere they go on the planet they find themselves unpopular. Flying union jacks (Jacks are an naval flag flown during war time) is one reason. St Georges cross is much more acceptable internationally-no one begrudges the English the right to their own identity, culture or history-except the Empire bit. I've read most of the reports in the British media regarding this affair and most have made no attempt to explain 'the historical significance' of the match, which means its going to be a bit unfair on the supporters when they find themselves faced with lectures in history about crimes they are not responsible for. Go bhfaighidh an fhoireann is fearr an bua! (may the best team win)
Complain about this post
Swing Low Lie The Fields Of Athenty!!!
Complain about this post
I am an englishman with a good deal of irish friends. This weekend I will be supporting England and they will be supporting Ireland, we are all aware of the history between the countries.yet we will still sit together and watch will undoubtedly be a great game. If England win then I will undoubtedly rub it in and I have no doubt they will do the same and I woudn't have it anyother way. It feels as if the bloggers from both sides of the irish sea would rather have us kicking seven hells out of each other just over what song 15 sportsmen "mime" in a stadium.
Complain about this post
Forget politics and past glories.Forget who did what to whom. It does not matter how good any team was last year, last month, last week or yesterday! What matters is that on Saturday evening two head coaches will put out what they believe to be the best team for the job, and in front of a full house at Croker when the referee blows the whistle, 30 athletes will do battle, and 80 bloodied and bruising minutes later one nation will have bragging rites. May the best team win.
Complain about this post
Celt - VIVA LA FRANCE! If any one country thinks it is better than it actually is at rugby it is Wales. So you had the second best team in the world in the 1970s but the constant over hype (it is much worse than Englands) about how great you are - you basically believe your New Zealand but don't have the history to back it up - is constantly found wanting when you get hammered once again by the All Blacks and virtually any other half decent side.
Complain about this post
Thank you, Brian Collins. That's exactly what I wanted to say to "Honest Tim". Who needs that sort of bolshie attitude, quite frankly, it's offensive and short-sighted, and not befitting of the fine sport that is rugby. Thank goodness Honest Tim and his blinkered opinions are few and far between in the world of rugby supporters. Let's all enjoy the game and a historic occasion in Croke Park - a day when we hopefully move away from the wrongdoings of the past and allow a sport to be a sport.
Complain about this post
Time out on the political lectures from both sides.
In case none of u turkeys have checked lately, our passports all say EU.
Lets all hope we can enjoy a great game of enteraining rugby.
If you want to knoew why Ireland and England are underachievers just take a look at the All Black Web Site.
Our own (U.K. and Ireland)are amateurish by comparison. The RFU site is grim.
Irelands is getting much better.
From a proud NI prod who will gladly sing both anthems come Sat.
Still say Ireland by 17 points.
Complain about this post
Does anybody know the reason why Cueto has not been selected for the England team to face Ireland?
He is definitely fit as he has been chosen to captain Sale Sharks. He is one of the top scorers for England for the amount of games he has played and i see no reason to leave him out.
Complain about this post
The IRA I was referring to was the paramilitary organisation that worked under that name [or the "Real" IRA], as an other person in this long debate had asked if the Irish would take responsiblity for them and their actions, or something along those lines. I was not referring the IRA during the War of Independance, or of the Civil War.
"an illegal organisation "
I don't see how the B&Ts were illegal, they were, if I am correct, funded by the British governemnt set up by a British MP to crush the IRA of the WoI [not the IRA of the "Troubles," just to clarify ;)]
Though King George did condemn the actions of the B&Ts, I did stumble across an interesting article in "The Guardian" [of that era] which described the achievements of the B&Ts as "glorious." [IIRC]
On another interesting not, don't American and British forces still occupy parts of Germany? Seems like thay also refuse to forget the past! :p
Anyway, shall we continue on with the matter at hand?
Complain about this post
Seamus Murphy
Very interesting history lesson, but that's what it is, HISTORY. As big a privelege as it is to the IRFU to play at Croke Park, the rugby world including England do not need to be held to ransom for CRIMES they did not commit. We're talking generations back here. I'm afraid opinions like yours are the reason that Ireland North and South has taken so long to shrug off the demons of the past. I've heard all the language you're using before when i lived in N Ireland, but i'm afraid it's the talk of SinnFein/IRA, now wearing suits and happy to take the pound with the sovereign's head on it. Frankly, on both sides there's rank hypocrisy. You're crying REMEMBER!!! and when it comes to lack of trust from Unioninsts in the North becase of PAST atrcities, you cry FORGET THE PAST..MOVE ON! Which is it, remember or forget? I'm firmly in the 'move on' camp. That's why as a Unionist Irishman, i will stand in Croke on Sat, sing my lungs out during Ireland's call and GSTQ and not be ashamed of either. Better than that, if they have the words available of the National Anthem in gaelic, i'll happily have a go. Please grow up.
I'd like to apologise to all those who have posted on this blog, about the completely unnecessary political tittle tattle. I realise i have added to it, however, we all have suffered from the past, all the more reason to get on with the future and enjoy a new age where sport crosses all boundaries. (End of my Martin Luther King type speech)
Ireland by 10+
Complain about this post
Post 148
Dear Eefs (pst148) I expect you are one of the many individuals who cannot stand free opinion in this country.
As for being short sighted, you are truly a hypocryte.
I wish you all the best in the future.
Rgds
Complain about this post
I predict a draw.
There, thats confused you all ;-)
Complain about this post
If ever a six nations match was over discussed....If we start better than we did against France and keep a few phases going like we did against Australia the Ireland can do it.
I hope Jonny is going to play. He is a suprb athlete and would be badly missed on such an occasion.
As for the Celtic Brotherhood, I have been living in Dublin and been at five and six nations matches since the early seventies and had pints afterwards with opposing fans and my order of merit in terms of who I would have most time for is
1 The French... Smoked Salmon....Cockerels on the pitch.Joie De Vie!
2 The English...Could take a beating and were always gentlemanly when they won.
3 The Scots.....We always seemed to hammer them...not unfriendly though.
4 The Welsh....Always crowed when they won.. inclined to fart on the Dart...
The French fans we ( Leinster types) met in Toulouse and in Cardiff were so pleasant to talk to and knowledgeable about the game, I rest my case.
Anyway it's all good fun!!!!!!!!!
Complain about this post
Can i just say that Jonny Wilkinson by far beats Dan Carter. He's a better long range kicker, he has a higher average penalty and conversion rate than carter, he is better under pressure. Lets not forget Dan Carter has fluffed his 2 big opportunities. He was hardly evident in the World cup 2003 semi final, he can not hack it when the pressure is on i hate to say this. But when england's jonny once again kicks them to world cup glory later this year against an over rated New Zealand side everyone will once again start to sing swing low
Complain about this post
What a nasty suprise. I thought I was going to read a rugby site, not the racist rantings of my celtic neighbours. Totally venomous and unwarrantied - how can the English be accused of arrogance when you are all telling us how rubbish we are and how much we'll lose by. Isn't that arrogant in itself? And what the hell has any war/the empire got to do with anything? I don't moan about the Romans, French or Vikings invading us in the past. Get over it, you make me ashamed to be British.
Oh, Ireland by 10 (dammit...)
Complain about this post
As an Irishman, I just want to say how dissapointed I am with some of my fellow Irishmen and women have been making on all of the related blogs, not just this one.
Theres no need to be bringing the past and politics into the realm of sport.
I am well aware as a GAA fan that its hard to separate the two especially in the North where the playing of a certain sport can mark you as a person of certain social background. Hopefully saturdays game will help signify the end of such things.
As a casual rugby fan, in my humble opinion, i think the game can be swung in many ways. One that Ireland cant keep disiplined enough to keep JW out of range and will suffer for it..... however
the England line-out is very weak and it is one of Irelands strong points, which gives us something.
ROG confidence can be brittle whereas JW seems to be alot more consistant.
The last few post WC games were all very close and some questionable decisions helped us out last year in London.
Something tells me England just have that extra bit that they lacked last year, which although not perfect can edge it for them.
I hope Im wrong....
Complain about this post
Enda - and me by some English people who have a larger mouth than brain! I seem to be storking you on threads.
As an Englishman, I hope you are right, but I think you might be wrong. It is well balanced, but I think Ireland's midfield might just get enough ball, to have enough opportunities to break England's line and score enough tries to win. Sorry this sounds like a primary score essay of "what I did at the weekend". Hope England win, but won't be upset if they don't, thanks to the comments of Enda and others.
Complain about this post
If we are honest, we love a good game of rugby.
I love watchkng Ireland and think they should have beaten France last outing.
These days one or two mistakes and you've lost a game.
Let's get behind our teams, both of which are excellent and give rugby the good sporting name it deserves.
Good luck england!
Complain about this post
England's back row must be totally committed to stop BOD forcing the turnover in midfield. England must keep it tight if they are to win - it won't be pretty stuff and is unlikely to sell many DVDs. But so long as England win - possibly with a late JW shot - who cares?!!
Complain about this post
Ref No 137...
'Remember When' - come on buddy, have a read through your post again and hopefully you'll take stock and realise what an arse you've made of yourself with this one!
You talk about 'this game' which, when the last time I checked my handy six nations fixture card sitting in my wallet, was toted as 'Ireland' v 'England'. You then go on to criticise the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ coverage because in your opinion they may not of referred to the 'historical significance' of this game; and in your thoughts the 'British Public' should know about the atrocities that were perpetrated by 'british Troops' in the past (very BRITISH theme here).
Well, and referring back to my vary handy 6N fixture card, I've just confirmed that the fixture we're talking about here is indeed Ireland v ENGLAND and I fail to see the word BRITAIN anywhere on this card - do BRITAIN (British element of the Lions not included of course) have a rugby team? (maybe so in your insignificant world) My limited Geography education recalls that Britain includes wales & Scotland aswell as England and why then (I cry out loudly) are you trying to associate past (and long may they remain in the past) British attrocities to an Ireland v England fixture??!!
I can guarentee if it was Ireland playing Scotland or Wales at Croke Park this weekend this blog would not be inundated with past history and BRITISH attrocities! Is this not a sense of ARROGANCE within itself that many bloggers on this forum are attributing BRITISH attrocities to the English???
For crying out loud its a game of rugby between two passionate rugby nations. Forget RWC 03 / who can or cannot beat NZ / Who has won the most GS-6N titles / population differences - one thing I think we all know (and hope) that will happen on Sat PM is an amazing game of Rugby in an amazing stadium with an unbelievable atmosphere! Yes Ireland are overwhelming favourites but so what, nobody knows what'll happen on Saturday?
I can't wait!
Complain about this post
Post 156: how can you say that!!? Ok I'm not saying Wilko's not outstanding, but can he run as well as Carter? Carter can do it all. I'd rather have an excellent kicker and excellent runner than just a kicker. What does JW do on windy days?
Complain about this post
I hope that the rugby fraternity is not going to sink to the same level as the footballers who are still harping on about their last world cup win and we ALL know how long ago that was! Our worst enemy is, and always has been ego based on the past achievements. Everyone in English rugby has to learn to look forward and not back, especially the media who heap so much pressure on our sportsmen by comparison to past glories. We have a developing side and must treat each match with the same stepping stone/building block mentality. Ireland pose the biggest threat yet and we need to treat it and the Irish fans with due respect. England can do it on saturday but it will need a much improved effort all round. Let's get behind the boys and help push!!
Complain about this post
As with a few of these matches people tend to get carried away with the occasion and predict a big scoring match.Its ulikely one team is really going to thump the other.
As for the politics, the biggest affecting factor is more likely to be the weather than the historical importance of the ground.
If it turns out to be a nice day, I'd say Ireland have a good chance of scoring a few tries (as much as it pains me to say that). If it turns out to be a bl00dy awful day then the open Croke Park will be hell to play in and kicking/expansive rugby will go out the window. The battle will be won in the forwards, no massive scores and this can only be good news for England who look likey to be without two important scorers.
On another note, its a shame that any of either sides top players are out injured, I just want to see a great game that lives up to the mountainous hype we have created around it.
Fine and Sunny Ireland by 10.
Wet and windy, England by 3.
Complain about this post
I have read the first 50 or so posts with increasing despair and gave up.
I was privileged to play rugby for 24 years never missing a season and am grateful for the great comraderie and friendships it gave me from all types and nationalities. I recognise few of these in the vast majority of posts. Presumably most are written with some sense of playground humour, but many with biased historical perspectives.
I support England in all sports, and like every other nation, enter competitions with high hopes, though not always expectancy. I rejoice in their success and am disappointed at the failures. Am I different from other nationalities?
I would like to think England are in the building process of a team capable of challenging for the WC, but despite the large playing base, they seem to have less strength in depth than they seemed to have the season after winning the WC. So I am not optimistic. On the other hand Ireland have a very attractive and talented attacking team, but also lack strength in depth.
Irish to win by 10 points. Roll on an exciting game of rugby.
Complain about this post
As an Englishman, I'm really looking forward to the game. May the best team win - I suspect it may be Ireland. If so, I'll me cheering them loudly.
I work for an Irish company, so I feel connected to the Irish way of life. I just wish some of the people posting bigoted, retrospective and hate-filled posts here would get some perspective. Let the past go, lose your bitterness.
Yes, the British empire was on balance a bad thing. However, very few European nations can claim to have an unblemished past. We are a modern nation and we respect the Irish very much.
Complain about this post
Whilst I appreciate the significance of Saturdays game am I alone in wondering about the irony of Hill 16 ? The English team have no doubt been coerced (by RFU pr people) into saying placatory words such as 'priveleged' and 'honoured' to be playing at Choke Park - but hang on a bit. The reason why those people were shot (and the name of the hill) was in RETALIATION for some English forces being shot 'the day before'. Do English people really care about Dresden ? No ! thankfully the world has moved on, but lets not blind ourselves in some guinness fuelled one eyed romamtic notion of the past.
Complain about this post
All rugby teams start at no. 3. If your tight head isn't up to it everyone suffers. England have Vickery. Ireland have, er, Hayes.
England will win.
Complain about this post
Mr Moderator, can you please do your job and put all the posts relating to "What your Grandpappy did to My Grandpappy" into some historical blog and not into this rugby blog.
Now I reckon the "injuries" to robinson and Johnny are just a ploy by Ashton, they'll both run out onto the pitch at Croker and into the welcoming crunching tackles of Brian, Gordon and shaggy!!
Ireland by 3.
Complain about this post
Proudtobe---- what a clown!! Please tell me you are joking when you say that BRITISH atrocities can also be pinned on the Welsh and Scots!! Please. Dont you understand the words, colonisation, empire, dominance. We were made to fight in your armies and the union was forced upon us. We had no choice mate. Try to understand that please.
Its a shame that politics has reared its ugly head for this match, but its naiive to think that it wasnt going to. It was inevitable. Its just very fustrating when balloons like proudtobe come out with unbelieveable statements like that!!
Im really looking forwad to the game on sat, politics aside. Ive been to Croker once to watch a hurling match, (Leinster final)and it was an amazing experience.The atmosphere on the day will me magic i reckon.
It is actually a shame that Wilko may not play a part as the Wilko-Farrell v O'Gara-BOD is a mouthwatering clash. I reckon that without Wilko to steer the English backline, Ireland will probably gain the upperhand. They will sorely miss his kicking reliability too.
Upfront, its very tight between both packs, but again, the presence/absence of Wilko will have a massive impact on the English confidence and performance. I think the Irish front row will struggle, but the back row will have the upper hand. Very exciting indeed
Prediction - with Wilko, it will be v close, 2 points in it, Probably to Ireland .
Prediction - without Wilko
Lets hope it lives up to the hype, and sport/rugby unites and makes us all happy
Complain about this post
I am an English chap living in Dublin. I've seen the Irish team close up. They're awesome. With O'Driscoll back, they're dangerous. I think any of the English supporters that have posted comments saying it's difficult to get yourself worked up about playing the Irish or disparraging the team in any other way is only kidding themselves. We've played the two weakest teams in the championship and are back on cloud nine. I think a little bit of rationale is required here. I will be there cheering on England, and hope we win. It will be massive, but it will be very tough.
Complain about this post
Can't see beyond a Ireland win. Unlike the canter against Scotland this game will test organisation and units that have played together and know each other and international rugby. The final nail in the coffin for England is the unlevel playing field of preparation.
The RFU need to sort because England must lose 20% of their potency due to not having proper build ups when the other 6 nations do.
To be honest it would almost be a good thing if England lose the next 3 games and have a poor world cup. Ashton would then have an unanswerable case for getting ther sort of pre game preparation that Ireland have enjoyed these 2 weeks.
Complain about this post
Jesse Owens winning at the 1936 Berlin Olympics.
Israeli athletes killed at 1972 Olympics.
Tommie Smith & John Carlos raising black gloved hands at the 1968 Olympics.
Just search politics & sport in Google & there are hundreds of entries. People who say politics & sport don't go together are deluded.
Complain about this post
From a rugby point of view I can't see anything but an Ireland win on Saturday, and if they do then fair play to them.
From a political point of view I wonder if any of the unnecessary baggage that is surrounding this game will be repeated when Wales (British citizens, head of state HM The Queen, members of the British Armed Forces, representation at Westminster etc) visit Croke Park for a soccer match.
I doubt it somehow. If the British do something bad, just blame the English!
Complain about this post
Post 97
I thought that I was being pretty even handed - Ireland haven't played desperately well in the Six Nations so far, although the way that they played in the Autumn showed what they are capable of. I disagree that Ireland have obvious replacements from 1-15 - the loss of O'Driscoll against France showed that and I suspect that either of the props, Ronan O'Gara, Gordon D'Arcy and either of the second rows being absent would cause some problems. I would agree that there aren't enough English fly halves playing in the Guinness Premiership but players such as Gerachty and Cipriani, as well as Flood, are showing great promise for the future.
Everything that you said is premature and fails to give credit to the English side - I suspect that if I were to do the same I would, probably correctly, be accused of English arrogance. If Ireland win on Saturday, as they may well, then they will get the credit that they deserve as well as the bragging rights, but if England win, as they might, then it will be a massive wake up call not just for Eddie O'Sullivan and his team but also for some of the more blinkered posters on this blog. Ireland are a good side, there's no doubt about that, but they are not yet a great one and there is a big difference.
Complain about this post
t'will be a tremendous match against the brits, any win for eire is always sweet.
Complain about this post
...I thought England were playing Ireland this weekend so why the JW v DC debate??
But for the record ...
jonny - a legend, a talisman - what would England do without him???
Dan - he's good and there's plenty more where he came from waiting for him to put a foot wrong...
No contest really
Back to the game - Ireland to win if they can keep their heads.
Complain about this post
In response to Julian 168
Why were the British forces there in the first place? You think it wrong for a people to try to get rid of an occupying and unwelcome foreign invader? You just dont get it and you never will.
If the shoe was on the other foot you would be singing a different tune.
One thing I must say is that I am overawed at the respectful comments of all the English guys in relation to the history of the occassion and hope they get a deserved warm welcome like all other teams. Except from BOD & co of course
Complain about this post
The most important historical fact that has failed to be mentioned is 1973 when the English came to play(No scots nor welsh).
Thanks to the GAA for alowing Rugby to be played in their awesome stadium.
All this nonsense reminds me of the Tipperary fellow who was asked on Sky sports after England lost some soccer match, "Would you ever support England?" He replied after a pause "I would if they were playing Kilkenny"
Complain about this post
Id like to know what the Ireland 1st XV and the England 1st XV would think of the comments on this page?
Complain about this post
There seems to be alot of confusion about the use of the terms British, English and possibility of Scottish or Welsh culpability in past atrocities. British can be used as a geographic term i.e the island of Britain but in Politics it means 'actions of English crown forces'-ie equivalent to Third Reich as opposed to Germany as an analogy English people are more likely to understand. It isnt normal to talk about an English army given that no such title exists since England has long referred to itself as British and expected after military expansion that Irish, Scots and Welsh children would grow up like 'happy English children'-therefore terms such as British army and British public get used but the Welsh and Scottish nation are not implied, expect for elements in their societies and indeed irish society which is 'Loyal'-in Ireland they get called West Brits. The culpability for the creation
Complain about this post
Bob 175 -
Ireland will win on saturday, i think with BOD and Stringer back, will make the whole back line click. The pack will be able to match the England pack. If Wilko doesnt play, the winning margin will be larger. Ireland win by 5, without Wilko by 15.
BOB
Please get your head out of the sand. And please do not label us Welsh and Scottish as willing participants and instigators of British colonisation and opression around the globe. Please. The flag, the Queen, etc etc was forced upon us by you the English. It was the English that put the Empire together, and the Union Jack was a flag to show your occupation and dominance over the other countries in the UK. Crikey.....how ignorant are you????
Im sorry for this squabbling but when i hear stupid comments like that, i just shake my head.
Lets hope that rugby can bring us all together this weekend, and maybe a successful day can help smooth the edges of past troubles. Lets all move on but never be ignorant to what has happened in the past and how it affects us today.
Complain about this post
Houstie (133) -
Nice comeback!
Complain about this post
Its a game after all isnt it? It will be a cracker (as long as JW plays)
I am an Irishman who lived in Leicester many years ago (Brian Little was in charge of Leicester City and Mark Draper was the star)so that will tell you how long ago it was. Anyway, I digress. I visited Filbert street and Welford Rd. on many occassions and always enjoyed the time there immensely. I did play Gaelic football for a team there and we had a game every Sunday,,, the team would congregate at the Robert Peel pub (for a bit of Dutch courage) and we were very often short of players,,when this happened we would grab any vaguely healthy Englishmen and teach them the rules and the game of Gaelic football on the way to the game. Anyway what Im trying to get at is wouldnt it be great if every game was played with this spirit.
Finally,,, sorry all English fans but Ireland by 10 points
Complain about this post
Sorry Tommy we'll have to differ on this one.
If Wales or Scotland wanted Independence they could have it - nobody is banned from voting for Plaid Cymru or SNP - nobody is banned from saying they want independence. Likewise, the future sovereignty of NI will ultimately be decided by the people who live there, certainly not people who live in England.
And when you're independent there's nothing to stop you ditching the Queen either...
Look at any recent survey in England, less and less feel British, and there's increasing support or no opposition to the Union breaking up
The WRU and seem quite happy to have the Queen and Wills as their patrons. The SRU seem prepared to have Princess Anne as theirs. Was there some evil, aggressive English plot behind these positions being offered?
I can fully understand why British governments have been resented among certain people on these islands, but for the resentment to be channelled into a distaste of ordinary English people (many of whom have also suffered at the hands of the same governments) is very unfair. And to make out that the celts are being forced against their will to be under some sort of oppressive, English control is total nonsense.
Thankfully, this sort of attitude seems to be a minority - as my Irish girlfriend and friends keep reminding me!
Anyway, political rant over, hope its a good game tomorrow.
Complain about this post
I know this has little to do with the rest of your comments but hey! Last night I watched a re run of the Wallabies/All Blacks game in 2000.
My god, in terms of quality, how far are we from that game! The pace, the sheer power, the intensity, the flair... name it! Not a single team in this 6N, whether rebuilding or rotating or deluding itself (pick your own) is in the same league. Come the RWC and the SH will show us. (this coming from a frog).
Complain about this post
Uh oh - user error hit the wrong button before I'd finished.
What I was going on to say was, history is the thing that happens in the past that we all learn from.
Shocking that the attrocoties of Bloody Sunday are, they were of the time and if the shoe was on the other foot back then, I fully expect that the Irish would have behaved in exactly the same way. Its the same with Slavery, the Blitz, Dresden and all the other things that we find so abhorrent now.
Society has learned, and moved on - or so I thought, it seems that some sections of the media find the stirring up of ancient tensions a good source of revenue.
As I said before, its just a game. Can we talk about the game now please.
Complain about this post
I'd like to point out that I don't think all English people are arrogant & oppressive. We live in Britain but if you're on holiday & asked your nationality you say English, Scottish, Irish or Welsh.
Us Celts don't hate the English. There are millions of English people who I would be honoured to sit & have a beer with while discussing rugby.
What gets on my & my celtic cousins' nerves is the way England are portrayed in the media. Every tournament they enter, the media always talk about them winning it. Coverage of games & commentary by the media is biased towards English sport. Why can't the media be realistic & say, 'we're not number 1 in this tournament'. This goes for all sports. Every time the England football team go into a tournament they are expected to make it to the final. Same with rugby & cricket. This arrogant attitude is what really makes the blood boil.
To conclude, most of you Englishmen out there are good guys who follow your team like the rest of us. Let's enjoy the rugby on Saturday whilst downing a beverage or 4.
Complain about this post
Bob
The current political climate in the UK has nothing to do with my original gripe. You’re veering off course here. You are correct that now after close to 800 years of English rule in Scotland and Wales, we at last have our own voice, and I hope we use it.You must remember that until recently this was not the case.
But, suggesting that these countries that the Empire conquered and dominated (Scotland and Wales) can also be blamed for what the British did in Ireland and other countries in the past is absurd. At least own up or maybe just be aware!
Its all in the past now, but denying the fact that it was the English that steered the British Empirical ship is just delusional and insulting to others.
Again, lets hope for a great match for all to enjoy. I still say that the Irish will be too strong on the day despite the pressure. I also hope Wilko plays for an even closer encounter
Complain about this post
I don't believe this. So the Scots and Welsh were forced into the British Army were they? Only as much as English guys were. Can I remind you that the Act of Union put a Scot on the British throne? Or is that too inconvenient for your petty narrowmindedness? It's a game of Rugby for God's sake. I have a lot of respect for our cletic cousins and will always support them against anyone other than England (eg France). The guys have been on Lions tours together and there will be respect out on the pitch from both sides. Now can we respect each other on this blog? England by 5 with or without Jonny.
Complain about this post
Bob i'm backing you against the ignorant Tommy:
I will excuse the Welsh but let me give you a few stats of the Scots during the empire. A third of all governors in the empire where Scots. Hong Kong was created through Scottish business men, Glasgow grew to greatness through the tobacco trade in the west indies where slaves toiled away under many Scottish slave masters. The simple fact that bagpipes and kilts played such a prominent part in British ceremony abroad should tell you something. Rather than suffer it, the Scots benefitted hugely from the empire and willingly fought for it and plenty of people suffered at the hands of them. Get you facts right!
Complain about this post
Tommy,
I think we're both missing each others points :)
I'll try and explain things another way. I don't think that the average living Englishman is any more responsible for what happened in Croke Park's history than the average Welshman or Scotsman. My gripe is with those who care to differ, particularly when the only current tangible links with the past (monarchy, armed forced, government etc) are not exclusive to the English, and the English people aren't forcing these things on the others. Why should it be the ordinary English guy who suffers the flak?
I'm not saying that others should get the flak too, far from it. But these guys out there tomorrow aren't soldiers, or politicians, they are sportsmen and sportsfans, standing to a anthem about the patron of the WRU!
Anyway, no more political ranting - hope its a good game.
Complain about this post
Oh dear, I think people should be made to put their ages next to their posts just so we can see who's got access to their parents' PCs. All very sad. I always assumed us rugby folk just a little more enlightened than the average football fan.
Alas...
The game. I'm English but I would say that this is game that the Irish have to win more than the us. Ireland have no excuses. England shouldn't have excuses but I know they will find them! If England win where does that leave Ireland?
I think England will win it. I've read some good things about ROG on these pages but he's absolutely useless under pressure. OK going forward but if pushed forget it. France were not particularly brilliant in their win but they still got it even against the home advantage. If they were on fire - as Ireland were for a good part of the game - it would have been a walk in the (Croke) park.
Forget the politics it should be a great game. Whatever the patriots might think there isn't that much between the two teams. On the day it could go either way-
Complain about this post
The man in green over the boys in white by 10+
Complain about this post
OK, I can't help myself when it comes to politics. First of all, politics and sports are linked, want proof? The BBc were showing a program on Tabble Tennis and the IMPACT it had on relations of China with the rest of the world.
Also, "The reason why those people were shot..."
The reason those innocent civlians were shot was because governemnt agents were killed, in cold blood I'll admit, by Collin's hit-squad. But that doesn't justify the act.
I agree with most people that ask to leave history out of it, I just can't help getting involved in these debates. I will support Ireland, I will respect England [anyone who doesn't is a fool, much like many Irish people here] and I will anticipate an Irish win, anyone who doesn't is also a fool! ;)
Now, onto the match, with the mind games the English are playing about JW I don't think it will dishearten the Irish squad wether he is there or not. they have been preparing for him being there, if he isn't it is an advantage, if he is there. Well that's what they prepared for.
It's going to be close, as Close as the France v Ireland match, and as close as France v England will be aswell, these three teams are the dominant nations in the 6 Nations right now, with the Welsh a match down. Ireland have to win this, especially since England beating France is not a long shot...just not the favourite! ;) If E beat F, it's all open boys and girls!
Complain about this post
What's all the hype about? So We're playing rugby on a hockey pitch. Big deal. On with the match.
As for the so-called politics...as an Englishman I find it ....difficult..to take history lessons from a nation who stayed neutral - neutral! - in the fight against Nazi Germany. Let's stick to the sport, ok?
Complain about this post
can someone define what is meant by the "English national anthem" (³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ Rugby column today). Is it the British anthem defaulted to England since the other RFUs have opted for something else.
Or is it the all too familiar ethnocentric assumption that all things British really mean England?
Complain about this post
Yawn yawn...
I've just been reading this string and got bored halfway through...yet more proof that testosterone and history don't mix.
It's a game of rugby boys, enjoy it for what it is and leave all the old rope at home.
Complain about this post
Number 196.
I realise you're being deliberately provocative.
a) not a hockey pitch
b) not a very good insult either
c)We may have been officially neutral but how to explain the hundreds of thousands who joined the British Army?
Anyway i couldn't really give a fig, lets get on with the rugby!
Complain about this post
To 196
Aleyne, You find it difficult to take a history lesson do you? Well that difficulty probably explains your lack of understanding of anything mentioned on this thread.
Talking of sport as you direct us to do, surely the first rule of sport is to respect the opposition. Your comment shows no respect whatsoever. Now I could come up with a long list of 'stuff' in your history but, as you say, lets stick to sport.
Oh, one other thing my wifes grandfather, Coy. Sar. Maj R. Timoney (8th Army)(an Irishman) killed in action at El Alemein, would probably question your 'difficulty with lessons' and suggest to listen up in class before you write your essay!
Complain about this post
Lads, Could the english people stop calling the republic of ireland part of the UK and part of the british isles. 26 of our counties have not been british since 1921!!! Remember this and we can get on with our sport!!
Complain about this post
I have spent a bit of time reading through these posts and it seems clear to me that the countries that make up the "Union" so to speak actually dislike eachother to a serious degree.
I served in the British army for a long time between the 60's and 70's and my regiment was made up of men from each of the country's of Britain. When me and Taffy were skint we'd borrow money off Paddy Mcmahon, and if he had none Mclean was sure to. How else would we get a drink? It seems we spent our time borrowing from eachother for beer and cigs and none would see the others without.
When it came to Rugby there was rivalry and banter but if Wales were playing NZ or Scotland France the support was for the Brits every time. Difficult to know where to go when they were playing eachother but that's where the banter came in.
I moved to Australia and was apalled at my naivete. Standing shoulder to shoulder with Welsh, Scots and Irish I watched them scream with delight as the dastardly English got their comuppance from the Australians, with whom they all somehow felt a common bond. It used to be that we threw our support behind "US" when we were playing "THEM" because, we "WERE" "US". Not now. The bond is broken I feel.
I have an old army photo, the kind many would have seen. The usual, half a dozen lads having a smoke break lounging on eachother and laughing at some "in" joke for the camera. A Geordie, Taffy, Jock, Scouser and a couple of Paddy's.
My dad used to joke, "the older I get, the better I was." Maybe that should have been. "the better IT was".
Whatever the truth of it, reading the bitterness and vitriol from most of the above posts, it deffinitely was better..........and certainly is gone!
England to win by 10.
Complain about this post
Yes Declan, and could people stop talking about 'Ireland' if they mean the Republic of Ireland. Six counties of Ireland have remained British since 1921.
Complain about this post
43-13
Read and weep boys,read it and weep.
Complain about this post
43-13...hahaha!!
Complain about this post
shep at 156:
"And what the hell has the empire got to do with anything?...Get over it, you make me ashamed to be British."
You do realise that Ireland is not actually part of Britain don't you?!? Oh dear...
Complain about this post
156 Greenwhiteandgold
1. The Ireland team doesn't represent just Eire, it represents both the Republic and the North of Ireland.
2. The flag of our Republic is Green White and Orange. Gold has absolutely nothing to do with the state or its constitutional aspirations.
If you were a true Irish rugby supporter, you'd be aware of both of these facts, and you'd never makes such statements because you'd know that they're:
1. Nonsensical
2. Completely rejected by people who know rugby and its traditions
3. Likely to irritate (rightly) our rugby brothers of a unionist tradition.
Learn a bit before you post. I like the enthusiasm, but you come across as a bit ignorant and naive.
Complain about this post
i am a good footballer, i play in a local team in nigeria and because of our poor economic condition most of us underground sweat hard to get to the national team and even in the local team that i play as a midfilder i still suffer because after all that we have played for the club,we still are not satisfied with the little amount that we are been paid, that is why i am searching for a coach that needs a good footballer from Nigeria.pls i need your help
Complain about this post