Answers to your latest laws questions
- 27 Feb 07, 09:39 AM
Cardiff - Plenty of you had questions for my colleague Nigel Owens and I after an exciting third round of Six Nations matches.
Here are a selection of our responses. We'll be answering more after the penultimate round on 10 and 11 March.
Q: Ross Smith - Why are players allowed to target players in a - ie push them away/out of the maul - when they don't have the ball?
A: Players who are taking part in the maul must be bound onto to a team-mate behind or alongside; all other players that are not bound must go to their respective offside line which is the back foot of the last man. Players who are bound are entitled to stay in the maul, sometimes players become detached from the maul and may be pushed out of the way by the defending team.
Q: Matt - When players are penalised for 'crossing', is the penalty given from where the players crossed or where the opposing defenders were at the time?
A: Matt, the penalty would be where the offence took place, unless it is within 5 metres of the goal-line; then the penalty would be on the 5 metre line where the offence took place..
Q: Bill Hughes - I once remember reading that in the in-goal area there was no such thing as a forward pass (or perhaps a knock-on?) This sounds nonsense. Could I possibly be remembering wrongly some other fact about the in-goal area?
A: It's still a knock-on even if it occurs within the in-goal area, unless it is a charge down (see later answer). If the ball is adjudged to have been knocked-on, the resulting scrum takes place 5 metres from the goalline, in line with the place of infringement, not closer than 5 metres from the touchline. The only things you cannot have in-goal are scrums, line-outs, mauls and rucks. You can be offside in-goal as well.
Q: Dave - If the referee signals advantage to one team because of, for example, a knock-on, and the opposing team then commits a penalty offence which could include cynical or dangerous play which prevents advantage being gained, why do referees call play back for the original decision rather than penalise the second offence?
A: Good question! The referee would play advantage on the first instance, then if there was a knock-on we would come back for the first offence. However if foul play occurred whilst the referee was playing an advantage, then the team who committed the act of foul play would be penalised and they would lose the advantage.
Q: Bill Hughes - I once remember reading that in the in-goal area there was no such thing as a forward pass (or perhaps a knock-on?) This sounds nonsense. Could I possibly be remembering wrongly some other fact about the in-goal area?
A: Bill you are wrong! You can have a knock-on, forward pass in goal. The only things you cannot have in goal are scrums, line-outs, mauls and rucks. You can be offside in-goal as well.
Q: HW Knowles - Does the penalty for tackling a player whose feet are not on the ground extend to the case where that player is held up by his lifters?
A: Basically yes, a player cannot be tackled if his feet are off the ground. In the example you give, at a line-out support players are supporting the player who is in the air and he cannot be tackled until his feet are back on ground.
Q: Robin Lawson - One of the most boring aspects of today's rugby is the rolling maul - which there seems no way to stop legally, as the defending team cannot access the ball carrier, and is not allowed to tackle the "blockers" in front. In Saturday's matches there were several cases of phase two possession where two or three forwards stood off a ruck, and as the ball was popped to them they bound and drove forward in a wedge. Are refs going to let this "tractor and trailer" stuff ruin the game?
A: The maul when it is done well is very hard to stop legally, however the truck and trailer scenario is now pretty straightforward. If a team forms a maul (and all players are bound) then the ball can be transferred to the back with no penalty. However,another scenario is if blue team players drive forward into red players before the ball carrier, then this becomes a penalty and the truck and trailer scenario.
Q: Matt Mannion - There were a couple of times in the matches yesterday where players were being tackled just by the opposition grabbing their shirt and dragging them down. Is that allowed?
A: Yes, a player may be brought to ground by grabbing the shirt. As long as you do not go higher than the shoulders, then it's fine.
Q: Dave W - Why are players at line-outs allowed to change positions so often? It just looks a mess atthe moment with no clear gap once players start moving?
Players are allowed to change posistions until the line-out begins! The line-out begins when it leaves the hands of the thrower. So players can move around up until the start of the line-out. But I wish they wouldn鈥檛 !!!
Q: Colin Mallinson - When an attacking player charges the ball down, using arms/hands, from an opponent's kick, the referee never seems to give a 'knock on'. Is there a special rule for the ball going forward from a charge-down?
Yes - a charge-down is one exception where you are entitled to charge a kick down and this will not be deemed as a knock-on.
Q: David Rogers - Why do referees call when the ball is clearly held off the ground? If the ball is off the ground then it is still a maul or the player is holding the ball on the ground and not releasing - penalty, provided the players trying to take the ball are on their feet?
David I have to agree with you, a ruck is formed when a player from either side is in contact with each other with the ball on the ground. For a maul to form you need a ball carrier and one or more players of his team against one or more defending players.
Q: Matt - In the Ireland-England game, England returned a kick from full-back (it was either Morgan or Strettle). He kicked the ball forward and then chased after it. An Ireland player caught it and ran it back. The English kicker passed all of his team-mates but was side-stepped by the Irish player. One of the English players behind then made the tackle. The referee gave a penalty against him. I was under the impression that once the kicker had passed his team-mates, he played them onside. I don't necessarily think it was given for offside and he did say something to do with 10 yards, but I don't see why that was relevant here? What was the offence?
If a player is in front of his team-mate who kicked the ball and is within 10 metres of an opponent who catches the ball, then the player who is within 10 metres must retire to the offside line which is 10 metres from the catcher. Nothing will put him onside if he fails to do this, so in the example you have submitted, the English player I assume was within 10 metres of the opponent who caught the kick and he failed to retire to his offside line.
Q: Nick - Should Horgan be cited for his forearm hit to Strettle's face? If so, what is the procedure? Also, I was confused by Grewcock's yellow card. Stringer sold him a dummy but it didn't seem to warrant 10 minutes off the pitch?
At every RBS Six Nations game there is a citing commissioner, and he will rule on any aspect of foul play, whether it was picked up by the officials or not. He has 24 hours from the end of the game to file his report. As a referee I will not comment on any individual cases of foul play.
Wales 27-18 England
Comments Post your comment
Hugh, if a driving maul is formed from a lineout & the team defending do not actually enter the maul is this automatically truck & trailer. I have seen this on a couple of instance where team A catches & begins to drive the maul while team B back off & do not make any contact with team A. If there is no contact then is it legal to continue driving the maul?
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Following Colin Mallinson's question last week regarding charging kicks down, at what point does it stop being a charge down?
If a kick is very flat and an opposition member tries to catch it 10 metres from the kicker and drops it forward, is that a charge down still?
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Hugh, thanks for some informative answers to some good questions.
Perhaps its time the 成人快手 thought about including a retired referee on their panel of comentators for 6 nations games rather than just retired players???
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Ive been playing rugby for 5 years and i still dont understand how to break the offside trap. I have found rugby realy physical recently and have dropped down for the sunday league 5th team to the monday night training with the womens team at my club, canterbury, do you have any tips to "beef" me up ? thanks very much PD
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What would happen if someone kicked a conversion, but it fell short and bounced over the posts?
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Hugh,
When can the ball be classed as 'in' or 'out' of a ruck? I've seen so many instances during international and club matches when the ball has been taken or srum half tackled as the ref described that ball as 'out' of the ruck. Likewise, many players get penalised for offside or taking the ball that is still in the ruck. Can you add some clarification?
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What would happen if the following scenario happened:
There is a scrum in the opposing 22. The scrum-half passes to the fly-half, but the fly-half drops it, but the ball bounces backwards.The inside centre follows up and attempts a fly-hack but it flies in between the posts. Does it count as a drop-goal or 22metre drop-out?
This happened in one of our games, and was given as a 22metre drop-out. Could you please clear it up for me.
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Is there anything to stop the team defending a maul to detach themselves from it, then one defender to "tackle" the maul and claim that the attackers in front of the ball carrier are obstructing?
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If there is an injury to the front row and you have used all your front row replacements, i understand that you can bring on a subbed front-rower as it is a specialist position. However, if all your spare front rowers have been injured in the game and you have just two left on the pitch, and have made all of your substitutes, can you bring a replacement, who is not a front-rower, who has already been on, to play in the uncontested scrums in the front row?
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Is there anything to stop the team defending a maul to detach themselves from it, then one defender to "tackle" the maul and claim that the attackers in front of the ball carrier are obstructing?
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Coming up to the end of the Ireland v France international, France were awarded a free kick and after at least one ruck but maybe two, the substitute out half Beauxis attempted a drop goal, which missed. Would this have counted if it had gone over as I seem to remember a rule which stated that a drop goal could not be taken from a free kick until the opposition touched the ball ?
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Maybe it is because I am from what Brian Moore would describe as the 'Old School' of forward or maybe it is just the back rower in me but i get very frustrated with the actions, all be it a very skilled action, of those who slow the ball down at the ruck (naming no names Simon Easterby).
When I used to play regularly there was a very simple understanding in the Forwards Union - Slow the ball down and you will be 'rucked'. Now I don't agree with gratuitous violence, Shane Horgan's elbow style, but I do think that defences are now so well drilled and therefore the need for quick possession so important that by the time the Referee has told the player to move/roll away or get his hands off the ball it is too late.
Personaly I prefered the order of the boot as nobody ever got in the way twice! But if we are going to water down the game and make it rucking free then maybe Refs should recognise the slowing of the ball as a professional foul and ping it straight away as by the time the player is warned the damage is done.
NB; Please note I do not condone stamping or violence on the pitch for the sake of it. I merely note that the infringements at the ruck have grown in the last few years and are spoiling games as a spectacle.
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Hello Hugh,
I have two questions on rucks:
1) A ruck is formed by red. Red scrum half takes the ball out of the ruck (so the ruck is now over). A blue player dives over the ruck to get to the scrum half. Why does the blue player get penalised? Isn't the ruck over and therefore the ball is in open play (where you can't be offside)?
2) Red again form a ruck with two of their players and one blue player. The ball is still in the ruck, at the back of the red side, when a blue player comes through the gate and steps over the players on the ground to pick up the ball. Why is he given offside?
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It's a shame when the attacking side have an advantage (pending a kickable penalty) only to lose the chance of a kick at goal, by gaining ten or so metres ("advantage over"). If they don't score during the advantage, I would like to see them offered the chance to kick at goal (but not touch) at the next breakdown. What do you think?
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Having watched rugby for most of my life I have recently noticed a trend that seems to defy both the rules and the spirit in which the game is played i.e. the referee gives the decision and that decision is final.
A penalty had been given to the team with the ball and on the attack so an advantage is played. However, in forcing the referee to make the decision in his favour, the ball-handler (I believe the scrum-half but I am not totally sure) deliberatly knocked the ball on. I am under the impression that a deliberate forward pass or a deliberate pass out-of-bounds is an offence that carries the punishment of a penalty. Is a deliberate knock-on punished in the same way? If so, why is play allowed to continue? Penalties can be reversed so why isn't this?
Surely it is tantamount to the player refereeing the game. He already had the advantage of the penalty and the even more advantageous possibility of a quick-tap to catch the defenders 'not ten', so why is it allowed to continue? Even if a deliberate knock-on isn't illegal, it is surely against the spirit of the game and I would like to see it cut out.
Thank you.
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Comments 14 and 15.
I think that you have made very simalur and almost answered each others questions.
The reason why players will diliberately knock on is the 'fear' of going through a few phases and not getting very far - particularly if the foul was for slowing the ball down and the defence is all nicely aligned - and then the referee shouting "advantage over" and you want to turn around to the Ref and say 'Advantage - What Advantage?'
I think that the way to prevent this happening and encourage a Carte Blanche approach when a penalty is given then I think that the team with the advantage should be brought back for the penalty unless they can create somthing with it within a minute or so; there is no point just letting them run through the phases. Equally if the team with the advantage merely kick the ball down field for the opposition to kick it into touch lets not bother giving them anouther go to find touch it is just a waste of time.
I used to realy enjoy advantage as an oppertunity for a side to throw caution to the wind in the knowledge they had a penalty in the bag if it did not come off. Unfortunately, if advantage is going to be canceled for a few minutes of attrition then players will not take the risk. My view of advantage is do something special with it straight away or we'll pull you back for the penalty.
Remeber advantage is there to reward the non-offending team with the chance to score more than 3 points.
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Comments 14 and 15.
I think that you have made very simalur and almost answered each others questions.
The reason why players will diliberately knock on is the 'fear' of going through a few phases and not getting very far - particularly if the foul was for slowing the ball down and the defence is all nicely aligned - and then the referee shouting "advantage over" and you want to turn around to the Ref and say 'Advantage - What Advantage?'
I think that the way to prevent this happening and encourage a Carte Blanche approach when a penalty is given then I think that the team with the advantage should be brought back for the penalty unless they can create somthing with it within a minute or so; there is no point just letting them run through the phases. Equally if the team with the advantage merely kick the ball down field for the opposition to kick it into touch lets not bother giving them anouther go to find touch it is just a waste of time.
I used to realy enjoy advantage as an oppertunity for a side to throw caution to the wind in the knowledge they had a penalty in the bag if it did not come off. Unfortunately, if advantage is going to be canceled for a few minutes of attrition then players will not take the risk. My view of advantage is do something special with it straight away or we'll pull you back for the penalty.
Remeber advantage is there to reward the non-offending team with the chance to score more than 3 points.
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With regard to rucks and to a much lesser extent to scrums, why are acting halves allowed to get hold of the ball, or touch it, and then let go leaving it where it was. Surely this is a knock-on, paricularly if the player makes any backward movement. It happens in every match sometimes 10 to 20 times yet referees ignore it.
My interpretation of this is that you cannot knock-on if the ball is in a ruck, irrespective of whether it is on the ground or not.
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Ok so when red team forms a ruck over a tackled player and blue team enters the ruck. Then a blue player runs at the ruck plowing straight through the middle so he is effectively standing over the ball, what can the player do?
You can't pick the ball as it is a ruck and you cant rake it back as the tackled player is in the way. The only thing i can see is hacking the ball out the red side.
Cheers
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How do you become a professional referee?
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Why is it that the referee always explains to the players what they must do e.g. stay behind the ball. Don't they know the rules?????????
In the good old days this never happened so I presume that nowdays the players need to be told what they are doing wrong.
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after the full back shouts mark in his 22, can he pass it to the fly-half to kick it into touch or does he have to kick it himself?
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after the full back shouts mark in his 22, can he pass it to the fly-half to kick it into touch or does he have to kick it himself?
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During line-outs I always keep an eye on the hooker. Often it seems he's standing on or inside the touchline as he throws the ball in? Surely he must be behind the line for a valid throw, similar to soccer?
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Refs ,
I am a great believer in rucking to the point that if a opposing back row is offside the quickest way to teach these players is a few stud marks down the back.
Why are the IRB trying to remove this behaviour and not making killing the ball an instant yellow, it seems that the easiest way to stop players killing the ball is to ruck them.
It just seems another area where the IRB dont have a clear cut response and have left wiggle room for bad refs to get away with poor reffing decisons.
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After the Italy V Wales game today, I have a question.
Who is the sole arbitrator of game time in an IRB international match ?
Does the referee still consult his watch or does the time-keeper or 4th official prompt the referee as to when the 80 minutes is up ?
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In the Scotland v Ireland game this weekend the referee blew for full time after awarding Scotland a penalty. As far as I was aware he couldn't call full time until the penalty had been played. Although a long shot Chris Paterson may have been able to land the penalty winning the game for Scotland. Was this a incorrect decision on the referee's part?
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if an attacking player is towards the defending teams try line (eg. Hickie on saturday) and is takled, taking with him the corner flag before he grounds the ball, does that count as the ball being out of play? and what are the rules regarding the uprights under similar circumstances?
also, at the end of the Scotland v Ireland match, when Scotland had a kickable (just) penalty and trailing by 1 point, did the referee blow for full time?
im not going on a crusade to prove scotland should have won, but suppose paterson had converted it it would put an entirly diferent complextion on the six nations - england could have won the triple crown, scotland could end up with the wooden spoon without the win and it would have given france more motivation to win yesterday and wrap up the title.
like i say, im not to bothered about the defeat as we showed an improvment no end on the italy match - and the suporters got a good game for their money - but it could have major implications for most countries.
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Is there any evidence to suggest that the exclusion of high tackles has made any difference to the incidence or degree of cervical injuries in rugby? Is the rule actually making a tangible difference since it eas introduced?
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