heated debates
morning all. happy new year to you - i hope it's a corker. this morning's show might get your juices running in several ways and do feel free to vent your spleen if this is the case. we have a piece about gay aversion therapy - prevalent in the 1960's and horrific at any time - it's off the back of the story this week about sheep being given hormones to 'balance out their sexuality'. i'd love to hear your thoughts.
our 'my philosophy' feature comes from a delightful lady called jenty and she is a smoker. we're not for one minute condoning the practice - but she loves it and it informs her attitude to life - but if you want to rant about that then this is the place to do it.
and jonny geller's book titile is 'yes, but is it good for jews?'......
look forward to hearing from you.
i say that, but in fact i'm off on holiday next week so i won't read this blog for a while. i shall miss you of course but i intend to be brave about it.
good wishes and cyber hugs to you all.
xx
Hi Fi
Please help - we live on a farm which breeds pedigree blue face leicesters - how can we tell which are the gay ones?
Love the programme
Travis and Alice Moore
Complain about this postDear Jenty falls into the same philosophical pot-hole as all other addicts of the sordid nicotine stick. Live and Let Live? Live and let me have no option but to breathe in your smoke dammit! Work it out! If smoking only affected the smoker, then I would personally light your next fag avec plaisir. But passive smoking is a plain and simple fact. Nothing more to add.
Complain about this postBeing gay is not a choice - it is a natural part of life - i would never choose to be anything but gay. I am so disturbed by the suggestion of altering hormones to change sexuality. It is not the parents choice to determine nature. What is next? - maybe you can alter hormones to make sure that your child is attracted to people with the same skin colour as them, or social class or religion. Why is difficult for so many heterosexuals to accept that being gay is normal???
Complain about this postBeing gay is not a choice - it is a natural part of life - i would never choose to be anything but gay. I am so disturbed by the suggestion of altering hormones to change sexuality. It is not the parents choice to determine nature. What is next? - maybe you can alter hormones to make sure that your child is attracted to people with the same skin colour as them, or social class or religion. Why is difficult for so many heterosexuals to accept that being gay is normal???
Complain about this postWith 'aversion therapy' I had at least the start of a similar experience to the man on the programme. When I was 20 in 1969 I was at university and went to the student health service doctor saying I wanted to stop being gay. To his credit, he said that most psychologists would encourage me to accept myself, but offered to refer me to a place which offered 'treatment' if I insisted.
I ended up at a hospital in the Midlands. The first thing they said was 'have you come through the courts', which was unnerving. After filling in endless questionnaires, which they admitted were for their own research and not about helping me, I was seen by an arrogant consultant who asked with curling lip whether I was 'capable of performing with a woman'. I was physically examined for Klinefelter's Syndrome (undeveloped testicles = gay, apparently).
Then I met a male nurse who showed me piles of pictures of men, to sort into degrees of attractiveness. I didn't like any of them, so he suggested I bring in my own when I returned for the treatment. I asked him what the procedure was. "Oh it's very simple: when you're looking at a picture of a man, you get an electric shock, and when you're looking at a woman, you don't". Somehow I had the wit to ask him what training he had had for doing this work. The answer was none, and he seemed very casual about that. There was no mention of the use of emetic drugs, but I suspect that they would have used them as well, because I did hear shortly afterwards that their use was common at the time.
Anyway, after refusing an overnight stay ("you'll be OK on that ward, they're only burnt-out schizophrenics") I drove home. I was so shattered that I had a minor car accident, but I also decided not to go back. Since then I have been very active in gay rights campaigning and support work like Gay Switchboard, and have had a happy long-term relationship with a man. I remain 'out' wherever I work. As I work with university students and have young nephews and a niece, I am very encouraged by the attitudes of the next generation. But just as they needed to be told about the holocaust, we need these warnings about 'aversion therapy'. The rise of religious fundamentalism of all kinds worries me a lot. Vigilance must never be relaxed.
Complain about this postFi was wondering why the word liberal has a bad name these days. it is because people like her claim to be models of broad mindedness then, in the next breath, proclaim self-righteously that anyone who views homosexual sex as wrong is homophobic (which is a crime, I might add). when you simply could not get her job on the bbc unless you were supportive of gay rights is it any wonder the words liberal and bbc (and Fi Glover) do not have the high esteem they used to have.
Complain about this postThe appalling barbarity of aversion therapy has not yet entirely gone away - its form has merely changed. Our schools remain such hostile places for lesbian, gay and bisexual young people, with homophobia rife. the casual use of the word "gay" to mean dysfunctional (supported by the 成人快手) commonplace and the real lives and achievements of lesbian, gay and bisexual people censored from the school curriculum, that young lesbian, gay and bisexual people are five times more likely to attempt and commit suicide than their heterosexual counterparts according to the Samatitans.
The means may be different but the ends involve the same level of misery and dehumanisation.
Paul Patrick
Complain about this postCo-Chair Schools OUT
Working for LGBT equality in education since 1974.
Re: Gay Sheep
Travis, look out for "Jazz Hooves"
Complain about this postJust a thought on the question of what benefit sheep would get from being gay. As herd animals where the dominant ram gets all the ewes, what else is there for the subordinate males to do?
Complain about this postIf scientists are using gay sheep in the trail of the gene hormone therapy then it does beg the question of how the Church should be viewing homosexuality. In their view the sheep were created by God in that manner, and not out of personal choice?
Complain about this postUnless the efficacy of any hormone treatment for determining the sexuality of humans approaches 90% then it would be to nature what religious indoctrination is to nurture. I doubt many of your listeners would be remain silent if there was a move to outlaw the preaching of supernatural nonsense to fragile young minds. The threat of eternal damnation can be effective as any hormone-meddling. Both approaches are tantamount to abuse.
Complain about this postDid I hear Fi say "Do the math" this morning?
This is the 成人快手, not CNN.
You'll start saying things like "left field" next.
Complain about this postA lesbian by choice or birth?
Complain about this postI was born naturally inclined to choose and with the good fortune to live in parts of the world where choice is possible.
At 21 I chose to marry, but did I choose to be heterosexual? I chose to follow convention. I also chose to have children. I chose their names, what job I'd do, a house, my friends, my food, to smoke then not to smoke. There's lots I didn't choose, heartache, my brother dying, the illness of loved ones.
At 37 I chose to be with a woman and it felt good and right and natural - it was physical chemistry - was that always there? I think it was, but then I chose it. A year later I met the woman who's still with me 15 years on.
I chose to be a lesbian...I think...unless my choice had already been mapped out in my DNA at the time of my conception.
Great show Fi, love your style
Gay Sheep and all that
Hi Fi
I enjoyed the discussion this morning about pre-natal hormone treatment aiming to 鈥渃ure鈥 homosexuality, though absolutely horrified by that description of aversion therapy. However. I felt a broad point was completely missed about the existence of gay sheep.
I have met a few people who take the religious right view of homosexuality 鈥 that it is not natural and is against the laws of God. I find the more moderately spoken ones use phrases like people鈥檚 鈥渓ifestyle choices鈥 鈥 implying that the person in question has chosen to be gay 鈥 and of course that this is wrong and a sin in their view. The counter argument runs that God has made gay people the way they are and they have existed throughout recorded history. Therefore
firstly, it鈥檚 not their fault. They are the way they are because they were made that way.
secondly, it鈥;s not a sin if it鈥檚 God鈥檚 work.
Well this argument is an anathema to many because it challenges their homophobic view at a fundamental level. One of the defensive counter arguments I have heard from them is that because animal鈥檚 are not like that, this proves that homosexuality is not natural, but merely the choice of sinful people.
So the point I wanted to raise is that if hard up farmers are prepared to spend money on finding a way of reducing the occurrence of homosexual rams, then that is strong evidence of the existence of homosexuality elsewhere in nature. Or would they seriously want to argue that these sheep are making sinful lifestyle choices and should be condemned as morally corrupt ?
Best wishes
Frank Bradley
Complain about this postPS: I鈥檓 not in the least religious and don鈥檛 think I鈥檓 homophobic.
I have read some of the comments and still cannot understand what we are doing this for? why can't we just accept poeple as they are? without trying to judge? to me its all part of the human condition that anybody who is not like me is wrong and that is the only way it should be for me to feel secure!! so if I dont like tea i dont say i dont like it but I would say drinking tea is wrong how odd..it s about time we moved on. I am not British and actually I come from a pritty conservative country and a Muslim family but when I grew up I realised that I MUST NOT let social/religious conventions control me. I am straight but I have lots of gay friends and I love them so much and we joke about it like you would joke about the food you like. NOBODY has the right to tell the others what is right or wrong, its all relative. throught out the centuries people have been subjected to the whims of religious, political, social figurs and i think its time to tell them all to bugger off. what ever you enjoy, feel as long as you dont hurt other people should be natural.
Complain about this postSami
Saturday Live should have a proper Radio 4 message board.
Complain about this postI am 66 and married and yes, have heard and seen aversion therapy. I sought pychiatric help when I was unable to accept my sexuality. This was in 1963. I went in to the local 'loony bin' for a few nights stay. These few nights blew my mind - just 23 at the time. I had a complete breakdown which affected my whole life. Over a period of seven years I was hopitalised for months at a time. Aversion therapy was practised there for alcolholism and 'sexual deviancy' I had e.c.t instead!! To be fair my therapist always tried to persuade me to accept what felt right for me. I was unable to do this tho'my desire for male affection was overwhelming. I tried to commit suicide several times. How's that for choice!! It was the social attitude and ignorance of the time that ruined my life. There was no bargain in 'choosing to be gay'
I met a super girl who from the start understood my background and we married and have been 2 gether for over 30 years. Together we had a son who is the most loving person you could meet. He is unaware of 'our' predicament and the fact that regularly I am forced by my nature to seek satisfaction outside of my marriage. even though my wife gives me support and we continue to respect each other.
Any homophobics reading this should look in to thier own lives more closely and ask themselves how they would respond in such a situation.
Thanks for an honest programme about such a serious topic.
Peter
Complain about this postAh, how long was it going to be before the sociopathic homosexual agenda found its way on to Saturday mornings? We've had to put up with the obscene charade of The Agendas' Adam and Ian "getting married" storyline on Sundays, so Saturday mornings was a glaring oversight, obviously.
As long as there are people with more than four neurons firing, there will be people who object to the promotion of the homosexual agenda, with all it entails for the common good and society as a whole. It's becoming glaringly obvious that 成人快手 Radio 4 is desperately pushing the homosexual agenda at every opportunity, in a way that is patently in violation of the 成人快手 charter.
Mair, Wrench, Davies. Who else in this depraved bratpack do we need to know about?
Complain about this postI would think that all creatures are to some degree bisexual.
If the weaker rams are subordinate and don't have a chance to mate with the ewes it's along the same line as being in the army or prison or boarding school where quite a lot of "heterosexual" men and women quite often have consentual homosexual encounters.
I've lived with gay men and it appears that socialisation contributed significantly to stereotypical behaviour, i.e. "jazz hands" and in this case the love of Barbra Streisand. Their sexual preferences however were natural and not an affectation.
(I think) what most homophobes object to is actually the idea of anal sex which is something quite a lot heterosexuals engage in on the quiet to avoid pregnancy or to retain "virginity" until marriage or just because they enjoy it.
What someone does in the privacy of their home is their business as long as it's consentual and no one is being abused or hurt.
Can we all please just get on with the business of living and stop trying to justify our fears and prejudices by making them the responsibility of a God which most likely doesn't exist?
As an avid listener of The Archers and a big fan of John Barrowman, I'm talking to you, Ros Power.
Complain about this postHi Fi,
Is the shify key on your keyboard not working?
I thought it was accepted practice to start each sentence with a capital letter?
Do you have any mitigating circumstances?
Other than that my wife and I listen and enjoy each week.
Best Wishes
Tim & Jan West
Complain about this postYour programme was great.
Complain about this postWhat is the polite way of saying: 'I missed this prog., was it any good?'
Complain about this postthis is not a debate: this prog should be podcast(ed?)!!!
Complain about this postIt is a reasonable premise that since fathers are responsible for determining the sex of their offspring, they are also responsible for the sexuality of their children. Degrees of sexuality are spread across the whole human spectrum, from alpha male to earth mother with homosexuals left and right of centre.
Complain about this postThanks for all your comments on this. All interesting reading, and it's great we were able to read so many out on this week's show. Just to let Mark know that we'd love to podcast Saturday Live but aren't allowed to at the moment because of rights issues. We ARE working on it though - hopefully there'll be a breakthrough soon!
Complain about this postCheers
Maria
What is this? Radio 2?
Complain about this post