³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ

Very sorry to hear that - Hitch is great. As opposed to god, who is not.

Hope the treatment goes well.

Indeed - not good news for him as it appears. Although these can be times of great healing in more ways than one, if one is open to it.

Helio: God is great (just to counter you brother!) - it is unfortunately because we live as if we are in separation from God/love that leads to all our woes.

It wouldn't be W&T without the little exchange above.... Hitchens is hugely important I feel and I hope he gets on his feet quickly again. Life is strange in that way Eunice, but I'd personally be surprised if Hitch found God.

Will pray for him!

It's very, very sad news.

It is sad news to hear anyone developing cancer, and I hope he makes a recovery. I wonder what inspires us to engage that most primitive desire within us, an attempt to survive and overcome, to live. In this case not GOD surely!

JohnW: stranger things have happened!!! If I can do an about turn anyone can!!!!! It is not unusual for someone to 'find God' when faced with life threatening situation/suffering and who is prepared to dig below the surface of their existence.

Brian Thomas, "I will pray for him"...or you could sacrifice a Dove or some other burnt offering. They all worked equally well in the Bible.Which is what Daniel Dennett said to friends when they offered to pray for him after his heart attack

Eunice I'd be pretty suprised if Hitchens 'found god'. That's a pretty ridiculous thing to say. If god were real then one of 3 things have happened here. Either there is no god and flawed genes are a part of the nature of things. There is a god and as hitchens has said on many occasions is a horrible so and so that makes us sick and wants us to beg to be healed or this is gods go at changing hitchens opinion by terrifying him which would be a pretty messed up thing to do. Either way it all makes the whole god thing sound a bit silly. If/when he beats the cancer it won't have been god it will have been science and the rational man that he is will probably be putting his 'faith' in that.

I will pray for you too Nobledeebee. I'm sorry that, like Hitchens, you have very little understanding.

Gabrielcrim:I did not say Hitchens would find God - I just said many people do when faced with some sort of suffering and that is true. I have no opinion on whether Hitchens will or won't - that is his choice.

*If god were real then one of 3 things have happened here.*
Your 3 things does not actually include the one thing that does happen and all 3 are incorrect in my view.

1)* Either there is no god* : God is real and exists - just not in the way most people have been told via religion etc hence many reject the whole notion.
2) *There is a god and as hitchens has said on many occasions is a horrible so and so that makes us sick and wants us to beg to be healed*
God does not make us sick nor does he want us to beg to be healed. God is always healing without any begging or asking.
3) *this is gods go at changing hitchens opinion by terrifying him which would be a pretty messed up thing to do.* - yes it would but again God did not cause this nor does God terrify people. God is love.

*If/when he beats the cancer it won't have been god it will have been science and the rational man that he is will probably be putting his 'faith' in that.*
That's fine - I have no issue with medicine/science and support both strongly. However, fact is neither of these disciplines as yet has 'the answer' to these dilemmas. With a more in-depth understanding of healing it is possible to be healed and yet the body can still have disease present or even die - death itself can be very healing. (this is different to curing - which can happen in these cases but not necessarily).

So what does happen? To my understanding the following:
The 'kingdom of God'/love is within - we are made from love, our essence is love but we live loveless lives on a daily basis ....being emotional (anger/frustration/rage /sadness etc none of these are love and all impact the body detrimentally....eating foods that are unhealthy, drinking alcohol, smoking, drugs, not speaking our truth, people pleasing, seeking identification, recognition and acceptance, self-loathing, lack of self-acceptance and the list could go on and on as to how we live in separation to that which we are - love. All of that impacts the body along with all the stored hurts and wounds and unresolved issues we all carry - thus our biography becomes our biology and for some this results in cancer or arthritis or a myriad of other medical conditions. Illness and disease don't just happen - it's not a lottery, or down to genes (although they play a role) .....it's our own choices. By realising this we can be empowered to take responsibility for those choices, deal with the issues and make different choices that are both loving and healing for self. :-)

So from what i can gather from your response is, nothing is actually gods fault he is love in that he created all these faults and possible dangers and inevitable death because he loves us? and has left us to our own devices to play with matches? that's a pretty silly rebuttal. Your agnostic approach doesn't hold water. ''just not in the way most people have been told via religion etc''. so everyone on both sides is wrong and the written works can't be trusted but he must be a loving god with all the good that happens to us.

Gabrielcrim: God did not create faults .....we separated from God and in that separation we created our own 'faults' to use your word. But these can also be part of the healing process eg illness and disease. Death is not an ending (yes of the physical body) but is part of the circle of life - we are all on a return journey to God (even atheists) and it is our choices that say if that is through wisdom or woe and can take many, many lifetimes. We have free will - because that is the nature of love - it cannot impose - so it is our choice when we return to God by choosing the ways of love. It's not about being right or wrong but endeavouring to find out what is true - and to understand life and how we mess it up. There is much wisdom in written works but they are not infallible and the written works and masters teach one to be a lamp unto oneself and not to give power to something outside of yourself including written works. They also teach that true wisdom is of the heart not the mind. So for me it is about teachings that resonate with me as being true and from the heart, from love and knowing that God is love because that is what God is (and this can be known/experienced) - not because of what he does for me or for anyone. If it's not your cup of tea - no problem!

Dave if you are reading the above post you don't need to go apoplectic about *we are all on a return journey to God (even atheists) * ......this is just my understanding that I am sharing but I am not imposing it on anyone or expecting you to agree! Substitute the word love for God and you'll see I'm not saying anything insulting or dangerous! :- )

It just sounds to me that you believein god because you want it to be true. Free will as far as you're putting it is you're free to do what you want becasue if you do it wrong you have to do it over again till you get it right. Your own brand of agnostic religion is more ridiculous that the outlandish stories used by others. They have reasons atleast, as crazy as it is. where as you just believe that you're going to got to god land to ride on the rollercoaster some day because it'd be nice.

Gabrielcrim: well that maybe your interpretation/opinion of what I have said but it is not actually what I said or how it is for me. But that's ok - I'm not here to persuade you I am right - I'm just sharing what I know to be true for me. I don't believe in God because I want it to be true - I know it is true that God is love and that you and everyone else is also love - so yes - we can't help but return to that which we are even though we try very very hard to not do so. Everybody seeks love - they just don't know that the greatest source of that love is within them. I am curious though as to why you are so offended by love?

No probs Eunice, I have found my chill pills...

:-)

Offended by love? How is God in any way shape or form love. And no picking and choosing what is love displayed by god in 1 particular religion or another and ignoring what can only be described as pure evil. And saying you don't follow any texts but still follow your vague agnostic description of god and still describing god as love just doesn't make sense that simply means you don't know what god has done for humanity but you assume it's good.

Gabrielcrim: There is evil and love in religion as it is in the world today and hence the importance of discernment. Is it possible that the God that you have been told is God - is not actually God?
I know God is love based on combination of knowledge and experience and it is the latter that I give weight to. Hence I use to know intellectually that God is love but I did not have the experience - however, that has changed such that the experience far outweighs any mental construct or intellectual idea or concept. I don't assume God has done good for humanity - I have no doubt that God is love and always loving all of the time. It is we who reject that love and make loveless choices in separation to God on a daily basis eg when angry, frustrated, jealous etc and a host of other ways.

Eunice I would really love for you to supply examples of this 'love' supplied by god maybe a citation about what the love of god is. What god is this or is this still your agnostic aura god that is a kind of rosy filter on the world as it really is.

"Be still and know that I am God" Psalm 46 .
Love/joy /harmony/stillness are qualities of the soul - and this is our innermost being. Love is a living stillness - this is our true nature and then it is to bring this stillness into all that we do - stillness in motion. It is possible for everyone to re-connect to this and know it for themselves - not to rely on my words or any other person's words. I am not putting a rosy filter on the world -I am very aware of the presence of evil in its many guises and manifestations. Most of us have been living separation to our true nature and thus a way to help bridge to the love is to be gentle in all that we do/say/think.

quoting vague assumtions isn't the citation i mean. Especially when morality is a human trait not a godly one. clearly in the same books you obtained your abrahamic quotes from faced with a murdering sociopath I wouldn't be still knowing god, i'd be running for my life.

Gabrielcrim: it may be a vague assumption to you but its not to me. I too would run - there is nothing to say you can't run when required to do so! I used that quote because in one sentence it captures the essence of God/truth/self in one go!

This is very sad news, Chris Hitchens is one of the most moral and soul searching human beings on this planet. He is also a fantastic journalist and author.
My thoughts are with him and his family, with the aid of science I hope he gains a speedy recovery against this killer disease.

You spelt "oesophageal" wrong :p