³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ

"Colm O'Gorman, one of Ireland's best-known justice campaigners, has called on the leader of Ireland's Catholics, Cardinal Sean Brady, to resign after he admitted that he was present at meetings in 1975 when victims of sexual abuse signed a commitment, under oath, that they would not reveal details of an investigation into the notorious child abuser Father Brendan Smyth (pictured, left)."

I don't know what the law is in Ireland but a conspiracy to cover up the commission of a felony I think is also a felony in the US. Where are the civil prosecutions? The answer is plan and simple. In a theocracy there are no prosecutions against the ruling clergy, they have and exercise absolute power over the population. Ireland is no better than Iran, no better than Europe during the Inquisition.

Only obeying orders,
proving his worth,
on the way up.

@ William Crawley - You are the best, thanks!

Wouldn't it be grand if the exposure of the trauma of child abuse perpetrated and protected in Roman Catholicism in Europe and everywhere else around the globe where RC imperialism touched down, will cause the Vatican to be purged of priests and turned into the world museum of Christianity? Go Europeans go!

Back in the last century visionary Ataturk delivered democracy to Turkey. He told the oppressive Ottomans to pack their carpet bags with as much loot as they could grab in 3 days and get out of town. No violence was necessary to make the necessary social changes. In terms of getting the clerics off the Vatican property they may leave with their knickers and a suit of street clothes only and the rest of the pomp, ceremonial garb, art collection and sundry artifacts are to be left there for secular curators to manage. Let the people be free.

"Designated person"?

Let me get this straight. Say I see somebody being shot to death outside my door. There are other witnesses. I don't report this crime to the authorities because I'm not a "designated person".

I hear 18 years later that the murderer is still free. I did not report it at the time, nor did anyone else.

I have assisted a criminal. Cardinal Brady has done likewise. This is more than a resigning matter. There are grounds for calling for his arrest and trial.

Thank you, Will.

Jeez, that is such a scary photo........

Sean Brady said after Ferns that the church in NI had disclosed all information about abuse allegations in NI.

In fact the church and PSNI cut a deal - the PSNI agreed not to inspect the churches abuse archives and the church provided summaries if the abuse to the PSNI.

After all was said and done the PPS did not persue any prosecutions against the suspects thus identified because there was insufficient evidence.

But what if the PSNI had inspected the church's archives for primary evidence???

just in case my last post is refused, you can read some other information on this story which was brewing beforehand. very interesting.

Great reminder in that link there OT:

"But the News Letter can confirm that the Roman Catholic Church reached agreement with the PSNI several years ago that it would keep its entire archive of child abuse allegations against 41 clergy dating back to 1965 under wraps."



One pictures bumbling Keystone Cops or Three Stooges turning up at the rectory archives and asking if there is anything naughty there and on being told NO leave and whistle down the road for coffee and donuts.

When the church finally have to open up the secret files will we see big bon fires and fleets of industrial shredding trucks lined up working 24-7 working to destroy the evidence? The raids will have to be organized covertly and carried out as a surprise visit just as is done with biker gang clubs.

The Bad week for the Vatican (chortles) list is pretty nice:

thanks Lucy Q

I know we are not on the same page in that I am certainly a person of faith and I know you are quite hostile to the idea.

i would just like to point out I dont go in for vatican bashing as a hobby, I think the problem is much deeper than that.

look at all the godless political systems of history and see did they do any better?

No, I think our problem, ultimately is that we are all running our own individual self centred empires, even those with a single citizen.

But the universe, I believe, was made to operate with God at the centre. It is a bit like toasters rebelling against electricity.

Only God knows what each of us were created for, and when we run away from that we run deeper and deeper into confusion.

imo, that is the reason for the evil in this story and in the stories of godless political systems.

that said, while we wait for the millenium, roll on democratic accountability where possible :)

ps Lucy

I dont see any need for file burning.

As I understand it many incriminating files from ROI were shipped off the to Vatican and are now protected by diplomatic immunicty etc.

O-t

"i would just like to point out I dont go in for vatican bashing as a hobby, I think the problem is much deeper than that."

The problem is very simple. It's about what amounts to a trans-national child sex ring that facillitates and covers up heinous felonies in many nations and appears at least in some of them to be beyond the reach of criminal and civil law. When we have a situation like that, the ICC is supposed to step in to investigate and if warranted to indict, try, and possibly punish all of those involved in crimes against humanity. Where is it? Why has the system broken down? Why is nobody talking about it? If this were not a religious organization but instead a secular one, millions of people would be outraged. An awful lot of people have been cowed by the Catholic Church. This is the kind of indifference that sometimes leads to people taking the law into their own hands when legal authorities will not or cannot act.

I presume you'll be calling for the parents to take responsibility for their part in this cover up since they failed to report the matter to the police?

mccamel #13;

If they were aware of it and didn't report it, they are guilty too.

This is now very interesting. Brady has put himself up there with Cardinal Law. Does the Vatican support him or do they drop him and risk him telling what he really knows?

It is also clear now, contrary to what some people claim, that the Bishops read the document Crimens Solicitationis as - Dont tell the cops!

And the bookies have now slashed the price of the Pope resigning from 20/1 to 3/1.

"My heart tells me clearly that I cannot stay in office without losing much of the authority I'd need for the post." So said Bishop Margot Kaessmann, head of the Lutheran church in Germany, a few weeks ago announcing her resignation.

Her crime? Caught driving while over the legal alcohol limit after going through a red light. No one was hurt, no one else was involved and Kaessmann was treated sympathetically by her colleagues, the media and the politicians. She was under very little pressure to resign but chose not to try to cling onto her position.

The contrast between this and Brady's pitiful attempts to justify his behaviour could hardly be starker.

Canon 401 #2 "earnestly requests" a diocesan bishop to offer his resignation to the Pope when he can no longer be taken seriously by anyone.

As a Catholic I am not only ashamed at the attitude adopted by the Cardinal but livid at his arrogance. To say that things were different 35 years ago is no excuse - I had three young children then and I know what I would have done. Just because he was part of a church did not absolve him from doing what was legally and morally right.

The Catholic Church has for too long seen itself as being above the law in Ireland. He must go now and all those who assisted in the cover up must go with him. For him, and for us in the church, his continuing in post is untenable.

Magherafelt man your chapel looks great in magherafelt... i was at dinner in simplicity the other evening and parked behind it... i was not at any time in it though

Surely Cardinal Brady at the time of this event had a moral and civic duty to report his knowledge of this crime to the local authorities? If one has any knowledge of a crime such this, there is an responsibility on a person to report it.

An obvioys question for Cardinal Brady now is how many other similar cases he was involved in and didnt report?

The pattern seems to be not to volunteer anything unless the proof is undeniable.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Unfortunately the Catholic Church is not a democracy and there is thus no conventional way for the 'faithful' to vote on the Brady scandal ( and it is indeed a scandal). However, there is a way for us catholics to very effectively voice our opinion on this matter; we should all withhold next Sunday's envelope contributions - the message will then soon get across.

Maybe the cardinal was afraid of what would happen to him, if he opened his mouth, when all others turned their backs on those poor children who suffered so evilly at the hands of "The Great Whore".

I think this affair will indeed cause a lot of Catholics to question their very belief in god, and rightly so. There is no shame in ditching it, and I don't want to seem like a bully atheist evangelist, but atheism does not necessarily entail giving up everything about your previous religious life. I have been working a little on a Christianity Compatibility Layer over at - it has been a little quiet lately, but if any of you felt like shaking it up a little, please come on over (please don't be *too* rude, but feel free to disagree!)

JD

How did you manage to get a great whore passed the mods? You must be anointed!!

Perhaps not just Catholics.

A certain "Irish Comedian" said... its the way I tell them!, I know the secret of how NOT to get censored.

ps... My "garden gate" is on the staff?.

I thought "heli" was a lioness, seriously.

Imagine how two scared and abused youngsters would have felt having to be interrogated by more priests.

This is the document originally issued in 1962 and re-enforced by Cardinal Ratzinger in 2001.
[Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

Surely forcing children to sign the solemn oath with its threats of excommunication etc. was further abuse.

The sad reality is that two children were made to repeat their trauma to priests, then they were forced to promise to keep their awful suffering secret - in a very similar way to how abusers keep their victims in fear - except this time these children were threatened with eternal damnation! And the perpetrator was taken by the hand and passed round ireland and further afield with no restrictions!

So in my book these children were abused twice!

And now we have the most horrendous buck passing, "nothing to do with me gov' I wasn't acting as a responsible adult or as a responsible human being!"

Sorry, i don't mean to be offensive to anyone but if this is the current leadership of the Catholic Church in Ireland it is deplorable and common decency would dictate that Cardinal Brady should step down.

Brady will try to stay on. I'm guessing he believes the boss is up to his ears in this too.... They are all going to tough it out. : (

DK

With respect, William Crawley is, maybe unwittingly, part of the continuing damage limitation process. The recent local problem in Dublin and Ireland generally, the latest rotten apple in the barrel, Cardinal Brady,with a passing mention of abuse scandals in Germany and Netherlands was his offering. What about USA? Dallas, Boston? England, Australia, Phillipines and God knows where else? Google will answer that! Always the same pattern..don't tell civil authority, control the victims, move the abusers etc. Were these random but identical reactions or were the Bishops following rules of engagement for such problems from central command?

Further to the letting Christopher Hitchens have a go at this story and at long last IMO here it is:

Slate, March 15, 2010

"The Great Catholic Cover-Up - The pope's entire career has the stench of evil about it.": Oh yeah!

"The Roman Catholic Church is headed by a mediocre Bavarian bureaucrat once tasked with the concealment of the foulest iniquity, whose ineptitude in that job now shows him to us as a man personally and professionally responsible for enabling a filthy wave of crime."



That is utterly well reasoned, truthful and delicious. We can start to take wagers on how long until the priests leave the Vatican (in shame) and the people of the world claim it as a world museum of Christianity

Lucy Q

Thanks for link. It is one of the most powerful articles on the subject and shows very simply, inspite of the Church'd desperate attempts to cloud the issue, why Ratzinger has to go.

John Myles,

"What about USA? Dallas, Boston? England, Australia, Phillipines and God knows where else?"

Take a look at this wiki page with a long list of countries:



That list is far from complete and will become more so with the number of allegations growing daily at the moment. In my home country of the Netherlands the dominos started falling recently and within a week and half 161 people had come forward. A little later it was 350. The day before yesterday it had risen to over 600. The number of people living in the Netherlands is less than 17 million, but by proportion of its size it could be worse in the Netherlands than in most other countries.

After the Norms and Ratzinger's letter of 2001 were issued, the US bishops issued their own guidelines which include the following:

ARTICLE 4. Dioceses/eparchies are to report an allegation of sexual
abuse of a person who is a minor to the public authorities. Dioceses/
eparchies are to comply with all applicable civil laws with respect to
the reporting of allegations of sexual abuse of minors to civil authorities and cooperate in their investigation in accord with the law of the jurisdiction in question.

Dioceses/eparchies are to cooperate with public authorities about
reporting cases even when the person is no longer a minor.
In every instance, dioceses/eparchies are to advise victims of their
right to make a report to public authorities and support this right.

Now how can you suggest that the Pope/Ratzinger's norms mandated a cover up when the US bishops issued those guidelines, which were approved by Rome?

Lucy Q

i subscribe to slate as well. But I'm not sure about comments like.

"Oh yeah!"
"that is...truthful and delicious"

Are you meant to sound like a cheerleader? Or what is the point of this language? I'm tired of pointing out articles by extremely conservative catholics, and liberal catholics, all furious at the Church cover-up, that are every bit as angry, and just as well reasoned.

Not one of which managed to "oh yeah".

GV

MCC

Quite easily. The US Bishops had already been taken to court for NOT reporting to the appropriate authorities and had hundreds of cases pending.

Those clauses were in there because of what their lawyers told them to do, not what Ratzinger told them. (Which makes it even worse!!) Why didnt Ratzinger spell it out like the US Bishops, is the real question.

Why is Cardinal Law still being looked after by the Vatican? Why did Ratzinger (personally) ignore repeated accusations by members of the Legion of Christ against their leader, Fr Marcel Marciel?

What do you hope to achieve by this continued obtuse, blind loyalty? What on earth is the motivation for this neurotic denial?

I'm sure if there is any ray of light for the Pope in all of this, you're the very man to find it... somewhere.

Well perhaps it would be useful if it was spelt out since some dullard bishops failed to distinguish between civil and canon law.

Law was pensioned off to Mary Major's. I know you'd like him in gaol and I know you like to present his situ as some grand job in the Vatican, but really it doesn't amount to much.

You are being ridiculous about Maciel. Ratzinger pounced as soon as he could, since JP2 was a believer. He basically imprisoned him in a monastery. The report on Legion is due out possibly this week and I think he will act again. Remember, earlier on he forced them to change their vows and practices. Really don't think there's love lost there.

My loyalty is not blind. I simply ask the questions people don't want to hear and point out the inconsistencies - the sort of thing you try to do only from a different angle. For example, last week the New York Times had two stories about abuse by priests in foreign countries from over thirty years ago. And yet failed to report that a rabbi in New York had been convicted that week of sexual abuse.

A ray of light for the Pope? He continues to lead a church of sinners, but founded by Christ, and protected by the Holy Spirit. Many of us still love him and continue to pray for him. The ray of light for Ireland is we may get a reform, better bishops and some sense of integrity.

Now I'm off to the St Genesius Film Club to watch the Merchant of Venice. They won't get their pound of flesh either.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

"I am Patrick, a sinner, most unlearned, the least of all the faithful, and utterly despised by many."

Patrick too had something thrown up at him after thirty years. We still don't know what it was.

(I got removed at 42 for quoting the opening words of Patrick's Confession in the original Latin.)

MCC

Enjoy your evening.

I am very conscious that, if we must use the term, the Church is not a body of ex-sinners but a body of continuing sinners.

I know that both sexual abuse and subsequent institutional cover-up are not confined to the Roman Church: I recollect hearing from my mother (who knew the offender) of an historic case in the Anglican church where a prolific offender was moved first from one diocese to another then from one province to another.

I have little doubt but that the Cardinal, at the time of the events in question, thought he was acting in an appropriate and perhaps even a sensitive manner. Times have changed, however, but the Church still has not realised how much, nor has it grasped that only total painful honesty will serve in the current climate.

I feel the official response was far less than adequate. Instead of excuses and explanations, Cardinal Brady might have said something like: "I acted according to the lights of the time; I was wrong, the policies of the Church were wrong, and I now recognise just how wrong. Our response caused grievous harm to many innocent victims of abuse, by our actions we failed properly to protect the flock entrusted to our care, and we allowed opportunity to re-offend when we might have prevented it by a different course of action. I and the Church I lead are truly and deeply sorry".

If he had said something like this I believe he might actually have grown somewhat in stature. As it is, I am afraid, in my eyes, he has retained very little moral authority.

Parr

This is one of the sad parts of it. They dont trust the people's love enough to risk losing that love.

Well the film was a disaster. We got a talk on Shakespeare and the particular play and the imagery etc and then the DVD wouldn't work.

Back to the Pope for a moment - turns out Father Hullerman was given a parish assignment in September 1982-- 7 months after Cardinal Ratzinger resigned his post as Archbishop of Munich, having taken up his new responsibilities as prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. So micro manager or not, he wasn't even there.

Parrhasios's draft statement for Brady is I think exactly what Brady would like to say if he was better at speaking and didn't let himself be constrained. But if he did say it, it wouldn't be good enough for the Patsy McGarry contingent. Meanwhile my 8 year old was told by his "Catholic" teacher not to wear his brown scapular to school anymore.