³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ

Will

You have to ask the Bishop and the priest about the role of Ratzinger in all of this when he headed the CDF. He ordered the Bishops to keep quiet in his letter in 2001 and report abuse cases only to himself. How can he criticise the Irish Bishops when they were following instructions given by himself?

If they acknowledge that there are at least questions to be answered, it would be an indication that a spirit of honesty and humility is coming into the Church. If they dont, well, same old, same old.

Perhaps it would be best if people actually read the letter which they can find here This is the letter which the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ pretended in Panorama was a big secret, even though it had been published by the Holy See and was available on the Vatican website.

The letter covers canonical crimes against the Eucharist, the Confessional and the abuse of children by clerics. Among the provisions is an extension of the statute of limitations to ten years from the date on which a child turns eighteen.

The good news for the bishops and any of the other perps is that if they ever face criminal prosecution, the Catholic Church has a long track record of getting people in trouble with the law to the safety of South America where they can vanish into the great masses of unknowns in places like Argentina and Paraguay.

Drill-bit # 2

Thats not a question.

Will,

you may also like to ask them why Irish Bishop's implicated in cover up have been asked to resign, while Cardinal Bernard Francis Law, whose cover ups were far worse than any of the Irish Bishops and who refused to co operate with the Boston Police Department, was rewarded by being asked to officiate (main celebrant) at a funeral Mass for JPII on the steps of St Peter's in Rome and who is presently a member of the Roman Curia and Archpriest of the Basilica of St Mary Major's, one of the most prestigious churches in Rome.

Listened to this morning's programme. Heard Bishop Treanor say that there were no loopholes by which offending priests could escape. This is not so. I recently initiated an investigation into probable abuse of my son 30 years ago. As the abuse was perpetrated by a priest who was not a diocesan priest but a priest from a religious order from Dublin, who was then serving in Belfast, I was told by the investigator, that their remit did not extend outside the diocese.This is what's called moving the problem around. Very unsatisfactory.
Catherine

Congratulations, William, on an excellent programme.

On a recent visit to the Vatican I found the papal cartographers already gleefully at work on re-organising the Irish dioceses. How could they expect to get away with it? Don't worry, they said, we've already done this in Sicily. (To which there is no answer.) In the first phase a single bishop will be appointed to head two or three neighbouring dioceses as they become vacant. Northern Ireland is receiving special attention. Now that the political situation has stabilised significantly it is thought the time has come for the Vatican to recognise the border. The intention is to set up an independent episcopal conference with three dioceses centred on Armagh, Belfast and Derry. This would of course come under the jurisdiction of the Nuncio in London. Some curial enthusiasts would even like to bring forward the recognition of the border so that the Pope could include Northern Ireland in his forthcoming visit to the United Kingdom.

Exciting times ahead.

William love your progs. I listened to your live prog this morning Sun 21st Feb. Its too soon to start talking about the FUTURE of the Catholic Church. A lot of REPENTENCE/REPARATION by way of MONEY paid out to victim needs to happen first.
Lets start looking at Church property and finances. Where exactly does all that parish money go to? Millions collected and no accounts published - churches demolished and other things built with NO consultation. I note Nazarath Lodge demolished and sold to developpers - what happened to the money ? And dont tell me a new old persons care village. The cost in there is equal the Hilton - so WHO ACTUALLY OWNS IT AND WHO GETS THE PROFITS ? Come on what about a bit of real investigative journalism - its not just the Robinsons' finances which need scrutinizing but the Roman Catholic church.

A recent report I heard has it that similar cases among Jesuit priests in Germany are coming to light. I suspect this may turn out to be a secret that has been kept by the church about its affiliates all over the world. If that came out, would it spell its demise? Would it at the very least force changes to its celebacy rules for its priests?

William:

Thanks, for bringing this issue to the table on Sunday Seqence Radio synod....

(D)

Rusticatus - I think someone was pulling your leg.

Catherine - did you go to the police - that's who you go to when you want someone to investigate a crime

mccamleyc, if someone has pulled my leg I will be reporting it to the authorities and seeking substantial damages. It could be a mistake to underestimate either the unprecedented influence of Our Man in the Vatican (some of the monsignori are totally smitten) or Vatican dismay at Irish unhelpfulness. I notice that an appointment to the border-straggling Clogher is no longer as imminent as it was a few months ago.

Rusty - I'm with your notion that the Holy See may, please God, be considering changes to the diocesan structures including the number of bishops and delaying appointments might well be part of that consideration. And if it were to happen I would hope they would do more than simply amalgamate existing dioceses as some of the boundaries are problemmatic to say the least, including strange enclaves within other diocese and a geopolitical desire to ensure every diocese has access to the sea (not See). So, as I say, I'm with you on that. But the idea of a separate episcopal conference for three bishops in Northern Ireland? No way going to happen.

Crimen Sollicitationis is the rule by which victims and witnesses were sworn to secrecy, on pain of excommunication. It was devised by Ratzinger when he was in charge of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Father Tom Doyle was critical of it. He was a canon lawyer in the Vatican. See

AgainstDogma, Okay so Ratzinger devised a document when he was in charge of the CDF in the 1980s - except the document was issued in 1962 when Ratzinger was a university lecturer. Do some reading and thinking before ranting.

Wikepedia has a decent article on Crimen Sollicitationis -

A point which lots of people still don't get is that it was primarily concerned with solicitation using the confessional - a highly sensitive issue, and that is the main reason for the level of condidentiality involved in the proceedings since the seal of the confessional is so important. Read the document and you will notice how strongly it encourages people to come forward with complains.

As regards Fr Tom Doyle, here's a quote from his article "There is no basis to assume that the Holy See officially envisioned this process to be a substitute for any secular legal process, criminal or civil. It is also incorrect to assume, as some have unfortunately done, that these two Vatican documents are proof of a conspiracy to hide sexually abusive priests or to prevent the disclosure of sexual crimes committed by clerics to secular authorities."

You can read the rest of his article here [Unsuitable/Broken URL removed by Moderator]

Againstdogma

You'll find that if you say anything critical of the right wing of the RC Church, MCC will jump to its defence, whether you have a valid point or not. That's his 'thing.'

We had the Crimen Sollicitationis argument on here months ago. At the time, I referred to Fr Tom Doyle's powerful criticism of the Vatican and MCC came back with a diatribe against Doyle asserting that he was a nut job, or words to that effect. Now that he's found a quote from him which suits his purposes, Doyle is back to being an emminent Canon Lawyer again. There's a shock.

MCC even argued earlier that Ratzinger's demand for silence surrounding abuse cases and that they be reported only to the CDF, was so that he could get a 'handle' on the extent of the problem. He provided no quotes or links to back that one up because, well, there arent any. That particular 'argument' came from his own imagination. (He didnt seem to realise that in making that particular argument, the rest of his argument fell apart i.e. he acknowledged that Ratzinger wanted silence.)

The only time he has been stumped for an answer has been the mention of four simple words - Cardinal Bernard Francis Law. A man who was rewarded by the Vatican for his silence and for refusing to cooperate with the Boston PD. The message sent out to the world's Bishops by his continued inclusion in the Roman Curia and College of Cardinals is inescapable. Even MCC's fertile imagination cant get round that one.

Ratzinger has no right to even send a postcard to the people of Ireland, never mind a 'pastoral' letter, until he puts his own house in order first. Law must go.

Cardinal Law is on the Church's equivalent of gardening leave. He is no longer administrator of an important American diocese, instead he is archpriest of St Mary Major's. Ok, it's an important building, but it's not like he resigned from Boston and was given New York.

As for Fr Tom Doyle - he's not a black/white person - when he writes he is more balanced and considered than when he talks, or when the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ interviews him. The link I left can be found in the references in the wikipedia article I mentioned above.

Funny, with all this talk about all manner of cruel abuse of children by Priests and others in the church there isn't much talk about god or sin or Jesus, or hell, or the devil. I guess that book's been put back away in a locked drawer until this all blows over and it is safe to take it out again.

10 hours to get moderated?

I had terrible synod problems once. It made me miserable. So I went to the doctor and he gave me some antibiotics and antihistamines and before I knew it, I felt much better. :-)

Just for information for those who are unaware of what is going on in Germany (and Austria) at the moment.