³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ

Good for him. I don't have a problem with this as long as he doesn't send the chaps round to rustle up us atheists, and I *really* don't think that is likely :-) I would like to hope that CC Baggott is planning on building bridges to *all* communities, and wish him well in his appointment.

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

What!

Well, that leaves me completely bewildered as to how one is supposed to respond on a ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ blog.

Not only that, but most posters are anonymous, all complaints are made anonymously, removed posts seem to receive basically generic explanations, there's a general lack of consistency in relation to complaints, scant attention is paid to style or genre of writing even when a comment is accompanied by a disclaimer/explanation, such as mine above was (I quote me, "remove tongue from cheek, uncross fingers and touch wood [or pray or something], all the same, aren't they.") and when the comments were obviously (as in plain as the nose on your face obvious) related to recent posts (and content of comments by other bloggers), for example, 'What kind of person is "non-religious"?', and more specifically, 'Wanted: Leading Scientist (theists need not apply)'.

Frankly it's pathetic, and tiresome. (and dumb)

If the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ remove it they may as well remove Merton and Hislop from ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ2. (oh, and Clarkson too)

And Russell Brand... oh, that's right... they did that already.

I hate censorship. Moderation like this is completely unnecessary, if you ask me, and it actually discourages honest opinion-swapping. I'd encourage all contributors to Select All & Copy before you post a comment, and then save it on a note somewhere in case it disappears into the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ's Dungeon of Political Correctness. That way you can repost it without whatever piece you find offensive if that happens.

I'm going to try this another way.

The post above, although written with, as I said, tongue in cheek and with an element of satire, actually meant the following.

I hope the the appointment of new Chief Constable will not come in for the same kind of complaint as that of the appointment of Francis Collins reported in the 'Wanted: Leading Scientist (theists need not apply)' thread, the reasons for this latter objection being explained by William in the following words, (post 30 'Wanted...' thread.) "Sam Harris's objections to this appointment have to do with Collins's religious and moral worldview -- it's as simple as that."

For complete clarity, my point in post 2 was/is that I hope that other people appointed to public positions will not find themselves objected to simply because of their religious worldview. It's as simple as that, and wasn't in any way a personal slight on anyone.

I would have thought that this, the issues of religious outlooks and public appointments, was the obvious 'discussion starter' being proposed by this thread.

Peter, of course, Will missed Sam Harris's point re the Francis Collins appointment, and misrepresented the argument - naughty boy! But I can't believe that of ALL the Peters commenting on this blog, they've started removing the MORROW ONE's posts! Come on, ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ, stop this silliness - free Peter's comments!

As Peter correctly observes, the posts are intended to generate a bit of discussion and a bit of controversy; we treat them in the spirit in which they are intended. If we start moderating the fun stuff, the blog will die.

"free Peter's comments!"

Helio,

If they do that, would that make me a 'free p'?

(Gonny, I'm double reading now, and adding 'quote marks' for safety.)

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

MarcusAureliusII,

Cheer up, at least the Christian police won't be arresting you anytime soon for writing nonsense. The Dawkins site down?

Its time the Jesus police got involved.

The most brutal Communist dictators like Castro start by calling themselves something innocuous like "agrarian reformers." The goal is political power over the police force which means control over it. It's the equivalent of Sharia law and the religious police in Iran. It is a mortal threat to what little pretense of democracy the UK can make.

Markie, relax dude - we have legislation in place that covers this sort of thing. I feel it highly likely that Mr Baggott will discharge his duties honourably. If not, well, we're not powerless, are we? If I were in your shoes, I would be more worried about things closer to home.

13#Heliopolitan

Re MA2 this is his home.Finding fault & disliking the UK is his reason for living.I think he secretly wishes he was an English aristocrat,or at least part of the landed gentry.After all they did give the US all their values & instututions.

ukawailee, how would you feel about a Moslem Police Association in Britain trying to spread Moslem values to the police? In a real democracy, the police only have one religion, enforcing the laws passed by democratically elected legislatures and signed by executives, not moral codes. It's only one step to religious intolerence, something NIers should know a lot about from first hand experience.

Speaking about enforcing the law, if I didn't have enough strong feelings against the UK already, it appears that the Lybian mass murderer who killed nearly three hundred people on Pan Am flight 103 when the bomb he planted exploded over Lockerbee Scotland will be released on humanitarian grounds. What happened to life in prison? One more very strong argument for the death penalty. Americans will find this outrageous if it actually happens.

Markie, what Americans find outrageous is hardly the point, particularly since Abu Ghraib. I have no problems with a Muslim Chief Constable, a Catholic Chief Constable or a Pastafarian (although that would be great!). Many "Christian" values are in fact very commendable *humanist* values, although they have been misappropriated under a religious banner, and such values should be promoted regardless. But we do have laws in this country that effectively protect against the abuse of religion that you seem to fear, and although your constitution *theoretically* protects against them (and a fine document it is too, written by fine people), in practice, the US does seem to produce a fair number of loonies who find ways around these principles. And that does not seem to be such a situation in more secular countries, such as in Northern Europe. You girls could learn a lesson or two from looking across the Atlantic. We do some things better over here.

Helio - have I missed something? What's a pastafarian?

Is that an obscure reference to the Flying Spaghetti Monster of previous threads?? Was Bob Marley a penne or fusilli man? I think we should be told...... :-)
BTW Marcus there are no very strong arguments for the death penalty. Jeez louise.

Hello Electra2009

"What's a pastafarian? Is that an obscure reference to the Flying Spaghetti Monster of previous threads??"

I can make the reference less obscure:

Electra doesn't become you;

There are a lot of very good reasons for the death penalty. One is that as in this case, a sentence of life in prison doen't necessarily mean the convicted criminal will spend the rest of their lives in prison no matter how heinous the crime. Another is that some murderers are eventually set free on the belief that they are rehabilitated and they kill again. Two people did this because they were released on assurances and persuasions of famous people, one by the conservative senator from New York James Buckley and another by the screwball left wing wacko author Norman Mailer. Had those murderers been executed, their later victims would have remained alive.

Another good reason is that it is the will of the American People. Those prominent politicians who fought it invariably were defeated. Mario Cuomo the former governor of New York State and once considered a serious candidate for President destroyed his political carreer running for re-election on that platform. Many people demand democracy until the voice of the people clearly speaks against what they believe and want.

Helio

There's been a lot of talk about what evil is on these threads lately. Evil is in the eye of the beholder. In my view among the greatest evils in the world is Europe. Europe is and has whatever material assets it does largely out of centuries of theft through military conquest and since world war II by the good graces of the American taxpayer and worker who sacrificed to rebuilt it and defend it from yet another of its generational bloodbaths. On its own it does little of value having disdain for enterprise and profit. I for one am for cutting the last strings that enslave America to Europe. If Ameria pulled out of NATO and let Europeans pay for their own defense, America would have far more money for national health insurance...and Europeans would have far less.

Abu Gharib was a minor atrocity compared to the number and degree of atrocities that are perpetrated by all sides in every war. And unlike most discovered atrocities, the individual perpetrators were defined as criminals, tried, convicted, and sentenced while the general under whose auspices it was allowed to happen was demoted. What other military does that? Russia? China? India? France? The UK? If you are looking for a reason to hate America because you are so jealous of its far superior civilization to Europe's you can find lots of lame excuses. But a lot of your countrymen have just gotten up and left to live there instead. I personally find Europe repugnant having lived there myself to see it first hand as more than a tourist. If this mass murderer of Americans is released from prison by the UK and especially if we see TV news footage of him receiving a heroes welccome back in Libya, what's left of the UK's self delusion about a special relation with America will grow even thinner and more obvious as a sham. Some of America's interests and the UK's are currently in alignment...for the moment. Don't count on it being that way always. Also don't count on unshakable good will on the part of Americans towards Brits. France, Germany, Belgium, and Luxembourg made that mistake 8 years ago and their relationships with the US will never be the same.

Markie, you do seem to have a lot of pent-up anger and aggression there. I won't say it's typical of Americans, because I know a lot of Americans, and most of them *aren't* ignorant pillocks who have no idea of history, ethics, economics, foreign policy, etc etc. Most of them are lovely people, just like most of the people from lots of different places, including Libya, the Sudan, Afghanistan, Ireland, and even Cardiff. I know you probably feel that you are very outward-looking by posting on a European blog (maybe your pals think you're a bit wet for doing this; a bit of a pinko commie?), but I suggest you get over yourself. Most people in Europe do *not* hate America or Americans, despite your almost Ahmadinejadian paranoia regarding the views of outsiders, and most people in America don't think like you do. Try having some conversations with people *outside* your redneck trailer park. Live a little :-)

Mr. Crawley:

My prayers are being extended to Mr. Crawley...

=Dennis Junior=

Helio, what could you possibly know about "most Americans?"

Ah Marcus, one has to admire (or pity) your tenacity in sticking to a general theme - that of hating Europeans. I note you don't often let a particular blog subject get in the way of you pursuit.

If only more people read your entries, then the feeling would become reciprocated to a much greater extent. Alas, good feeling towards the USA seems to be on the up, proving that it's those in charge currently and the policies they instigate that sway most people - rather than those that used to be in charge (you know the type, likely to spread lies about the NHS to further their cause) and their wayward foreign policy.

A little tip though, your dark warnings about the UK's 'friendship' with the USA only make me chuckle, I am not alas, quaking in my flip flops.

crosseyes:

"Alas, good feeling towards the USA seems to be on the up, proving that..."

Proving only that at the moment, Europe's fears and thoughts that it may soon become desperate enough to need help from America again for the umpteen thousandth time outweights its jealousy and contempt.

Marcy, how amusing and ironic. The only thing your last post demonstrates is your own attitude towards friendship and respect appears to be based upon who you are most scared of, or who you can get the most out of.

Even if the rest of Europe shares your approach, it's ironic that in the current global climate, that if Europeans need help it's likely to be from something that began in the USA.

crosseyes

I could hardly have engineered it better myself if I'd tried. Of the things Europe rarely ever copied that America did, how ironic that one of them would be deregulation in the service short term greed for fast profits at the inevitable expense of an economic depression. America didn't learn from its own past, a trick I usually associate with Europe. I hope that doesn't mean America is becoming more like Europe. NO! Even President Obama said in his town hall meeting we are not going to have a British or Canadian style socialist health care system in the US.

Marcy it's a poor type of Engineer that hopes his work will end in failure; maybe it's a good job that you've been put out to pasture?

I wasn't actually referring to the GFC, or whatever it's called this week. I certainly can't see the USA offering anyone any help there (it seems to be that the reverse is required). I was actually thinking more along the lines of some military spat (you know, the sort of thing you're always hoping for). The kind of situation that the USA arms companies can't resist helping out with, sometimes on both sides, such valuable, real-world R&D after all.

Markie, I think I know a heck of a lot more about America and "most Americans" than you know about Europe and "most Europeans".

And that is not hard.

"Marcy it's a poor type of Engineer that hopes his work will end in failure"

It's only a failure if you don't know ahead of time when you design and build it that it's actually a suicide bomb the rest of the world will copy it and detonate their own version of or will be caught up in the blast anyway the way say Canada is. Having seen it coming, I sheltered my money where it is relatively safe. I had very little invested in the stock market. I converted much of my real estate assets into cash and sat on it. It seems to me more than a few NIers know a lot about bomb building.

Helio;

As is typical of Europeans, you didn't directly answer my comment. OTOH, at least I not only have known many Europeans who have come to my own shores to visit, work, and live but I've also lived in Europe for a couple of years and have studied quite a bit of European history. I also follow European news media which not only includes ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ but France 24, Deutche Welle. I used to listen to a lot of others including Radio Slovenia, Radio Poland, Radio Hungary, Radio Netherlands, Copenhagen Calling, Radio Moscow, and now Voice of Russia. These are broadcast not only over the internet but many of them were also broadcast on NPR and PBS. A long time ago, I even used to listen to Radio Tirana on shortwave when it was allied with Communist China. To know it is to hate it. Now how do you get YOUR information about "most Americans," your local propaganda machine? How much American history do you know? Enough to know that the UK only exists as an independent entity not ruled by the Third Reich or the USSR because of America and Americans?

Marcy, so by your own rules then, the GFC is a failure of the USA (and all those who contributed around the world). Granted, not an Engineering failure, but still not something I'd aspire to, and presumably not intended.

Bravo to you for trawling through all those Radio stations, I can imagine you sitting in your basement with a set of headphones clamped to your ears, twiddling a dial on some obscure piece of radio equipment (possibly devised by yourself) as your steak conjeals on a plate beside you and the dogs go hungry. However, an unhappy work placement in France sometime in the last third of the previous century does not make you an expert on our continent.

Markie, you're like one of those "PhDs" who are creationists, aren't you? It's categorical thinking that seems to be part of the problem. People, states, things have "attributes" instead of behaviours in the wee Markie world, and we define ourselves as The Chosen Ones, and because of some enormous chip on our shoulder, the Others are, well, others. Yes indeed, I get all I know about America from CSI Miami and Oprah Winfrey.

I don't know Every American, but I know enough Americans to reconstitute a representative sample, and most of them are sensible. But like I said, I don't know what would make up a representative sample of your trailer park.

crosseyes

Dead wrong as usual. When I lived in France I was a student in medical school, not a worker. In fact my visa specifically forbade me from working although strange as it seems, someone offered me a job translating technical papers into French, a job I was not qualified for even if I'd wanted it. I had a beautiful shortwave radio in France I'd bought in the US (designed in the US and build in Japan) that was far cheaper and better than the Grundigs, Schneiders, and other junk on the local market. Before I left, I sold it at a 50% profit over what I paid for it. It was fairly large had a beautifully silk screened multicolored map of the world on it showing time zones, was quite sensitive, all band and excellent tone. Can't remember who made it but I bought it for about $60 locally. When I wanted another one back home I bought a TOTL Sangean sold under Radio Shack's brand name with a built in cassette recorder. More recently I just use the internet, NPR, and PBS. No the dogs never go hungry. Besides their usual rations, it's costing me about $1500 a year in dog treats, mostly Waggin' Train chicken jerky. Absolutely rediculous.

Still grumpy about all that steak in my freezer and all that Bordeaux aging in my cellar I see. I've put myself on a very strict diet. Ate too much, gotta lose weight. Those clarets can wait. The older they get, the better they taste anyway. David Cunard is jealous too. Wow you Brits really love your glass of claret.

Helio;

You also got me dead wrong. Me a cretinist? Hardly. I'm a lifelong atheist. I just hang out here for the fun of teasing people like you and crosseyes. Americans are smart enough not to tell foreigners what they really think of them, especially on their home turf. Most are rather polite, especially in foreign countries. It isn't America that has a reputation for drunken soccer hooligans brawling in the seats and in the streets. Our laws are not nearly so lenient if they come here. They will go to jail, they will not pass go, and their fine may be well over $200 especially if they damage anything or hurt anyone.

Markie, I know you're not a creationist, but your logic works like one. Americans are no different from anyone else. That is my point, and you would do well to learn from it.

Helio

Wrong again Helio. Americans see the world through entirely different eyes than others, especially Europeans. If you really knew anything about American history, you'd know that the very invention of America was a rejection of nearly everything about Europe.

Right-ho, Markie. I'm bored with this now. America is great, everywhere else sucks. Nighty-night!

-H

Marcus a student? Grundig radios? people listening to shortwave? Indeed I was wrong, it wasn't the last third of the century but the middle third. I'm surprised that you accommodation even had electricity Marcy.

While I enjoy a good steak, I'm glad (for the sake of your inefficient health service) that you're getting some variety in your diet these days. you veterans of post-war France need to look after yourself.

crosseyes

"I'm surprised that you accommodation even had electricity Marcy."

So was I. I saw one home within the city limits of Bordeaux that didn't even have indoor plumbing. When I see those picturesque photos of villages on the sides of hills and the ones I actually saw, I think about what a nightmare it must have been to install indoor plumbing and electricity to those stone caves that are hundreds of years old.

Frightened off by those ancient buildings, I rented an apartment in a modern building. Americans and Canadians were unique among foreign students being unable to adapt to the conditions that French people and those of other nations found entirely acceptable. Each of us had our own unique demands. Mine were for screen windows to keep the flies and mosquitoes out and central heat so I wouldn't freeze in the winter. I also needed a TV set to keep in touch with the world. They had only two channels and they only showed programs for a few hours every day, around noon and again in the evening. I never did pay my license fee to the ORTF.

Marcy, it's been so long since you were in France, you probably wouldn't even recognise the place, and lucky for you, they might not even recognise you anymore (otherwise that admission about the ORTF fee might catch up with you).

Here's the thing though, it's pretty clear that your irrational hatred is based upon a limited experience that's extremely out of date. Since you were there, which must have been just after WWII, in many ways (some good, some bad) Europe has caught up with or passed the USA (you'll no doubt be telling me how it was all payed for by the USA in a minute).

But all of that's irrelevant anyway, what's more important is that your rantings don't appear to be having much effect (except maybe on your health). During the time I've dipped into your contributions (mainly for amusement, following that initial, short-lived shock at their level of ignorance) your country (and much of the world) has gone backwards. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of contributors in general agreement with your point of view, and I've seen no monumental downfall in Europe. Maybe it's time to get outside a little more, gambol round the paddock with dogs and spread the love?

crosseyes;

I'll say one thing for you crosseyes, you are consistent...consistently wrong. Living in France and traveling in Europe in the early 1970s was just one part of a long process. Why shouldn't I hate Europe? Europeans who know each other best hate each other. They have for thousands of years. Listen to what the people who advocate the EU have to say. One rationalization for that remarkably clumsy monstosity is that it will prevent another war between them. Have you ever heard anyone say something comparable about NAFTA? War between the US and Canada or the US and Mexico is unthinkable. The only war between the US and Mexico happened over 150 years ago and between the US and Canada almost 200 years ago. Between European countries it's the bulk of their history.

Now why wouldn't I recognize France? Have those old ramshackled stone huts many Europeans live in that tourist guides describe as "quaint" been torn down and replaced? Did they build a sewage treatment plant so that the Garonne River doesn't stink from raw sewage anymore? Have the people suddenly become friendly and treat each other with courtesy and respect? Have the cab drivers stopped taking tourists on a three hour tour from the airport to the downtown hotels in Paris? I don't think it changed at all. In fact I heard that the French government gave up on trying to persuade the Parisians being rude to tourists so they've printed lessons on how tourists can be just as rude in return to Parisians.

Europe caught up with the US? What a joke, the gap if anything is widening. If it weren't why would 10% of the UK's native citizens have become ex-pats, many of them living here?

The reason you don't read views like mine on ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ is because of the few Americans who post on ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ, most are either left wing or too polite to say what they really think. Believe it or not (and I don't think you would) most Americans never even heard of the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ and don't know or care what it is. I at least know.

How lovely to be you - so self deluded that you probably actually believe that just because you say something (such as me being consistently wrong) that it actually makes it true. And you're the same person who lectures the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ on the difference between fact and opinion. Laughably ironic.

I won't let the legendary rudeness of New Yorkers get in the way of your little Paris rant (incidentally last time I was in Paris, communicating with the taxi drivers was considerably easier than in NYC, not to denigrate that city which is a wonderful place).

Brits go everywhere, it's something we do (I'm writing this from Australia). Doesen't mean we can't see that the USA whilst been a truly spectacular country is creaking around the edges, when we compare it to places closer to home.

I do love your little conspiracy theory that the majority of USA citizens are so polite that they go around secretly despising us Euros. So hard to imagine on so many levels. As for you quaint ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ anecdote, hardly true (the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ is probably one of the best known broadcasters worldwide) and even more so, hardly something to be proud of really is it now?

"There are a lot of very good reasons for the death penalty...." Tell that those relatives of persons who were killed because a jury or a judge (or even a better paid layer) just thought they would need to be killed and the evidence that the crime was done by someone else only appeared after the death penalty...

I even heard of cases in which governors or senators pardoned people who were found guilty in court changing their penalty. If those fellas commit a crime again even a system with death penalty runs the same risk as one without.


"Don't count on it being that way always. Also don't count on unshakable good will on the part of Americans towards Brits. France, Germany, Belgium, and Luxembourg made that mistake 8 years ago and their relationships with the US will never be the same."

Don't you worry too much my British friends. Despite the fact of having lost that good will over here, we still have running water, electricity, more food than anyone could eat (especially milk products). They even still translate Microsoft operation systems into German! I couldn't name many if anything that really changed due to this loss of "good will".


So do you know French, German, Polish, Albanian and whatsoever else was on your list? Or do they make special versions for in English of those things? Or is it neither and you sat there listening to languages neither of us understands? (The second and the third choice of this list wouldn't really qualify for "knowing how Europe works)


The only question I would however have liked answered by you is this one:
"On its own it does little of value having disdain for enterprise and profit."

If that was actually anything near reality, how does America import far more goods from Europe than the other way round? And we are not talking about fossile energy (we don't really have that) nor natural/raw products, but about sophisticated products such as cars or heavy machinery.

Marcus you are like a parrot,you repeat every thing and know nothing.The US saviour of Europe my foot,by helping with other countrys to over throw Hitlers Germany is the least you could do for the French.Who by thier intervention in the war of US inderpendance by thier navy,army & artillery especially at York Town,they did most of the fighting for you,won your inderpendance.When the French needed help with thier revolution did the US help them? did they hell.No intervention in over seas wars.How very courageous,& convenient.You owe the French big time,did the US repay all French loans from that time??.Some one said, Americans don`t do irony,well you bloody don`t.What went around,came
back around.Ever pondered why the French are some times reluctant to help the US I just can not think why ???.French are smart people got out of Indo China PDQ.Why did the US send over 55000 young Americans to die,when all that the Viet folk wanted is what the US wanted in 1776
inderpendance.Hell you guys get it wrong some times!!.

ukawailee

I didn't think much of you before your posting here and I think even less of you having read it. Do I really reallly really have to explain it to you like you were a ten year old child. You know damned well why for every question you posed. America owes the French nothing. You Brits are fond of telling Americans how the US only fought the Nazis because it wanted to protect itself, it fought them in its own interest. Well you can't have it both ways. The French fought the British at Yorktown because they were at war with Britain all over the world for the spoils of colonial imperialism, not because they had any special empathy for the American cause. You want to know why America didn't get involved in the French revolution? For one thing it couldn't, it was a weak nation at that time. And which side should it have come in on, the Monarchy that bankrupted its people or the revolutionaries? Besides, by that time relations with France were starting to deteriorate. The US almost went to war against France shortly after American independence or didn't you know that?

"Ever pondered why the French are some times reluctant to help the US I just can not think why ???."

Sometimes? How about always. I can think of lots of reasons. Jealousy. Cowardice. And in the case of Iraq, like China Russia, the Germans, and one of your own whose name being mentioned here would get this posting deleted had wealthy people making huge profits by circumventing the UN sanctions, profits which their corrupt governments were protecting. When is Britain going to come clean about the 2 billion paid to Saudi princes to get military contracts, you know the investigation the UK government has tried to block because of "national security" reasons.

You also know full well what the "Domino Theory" was and the fear that the Communist effort at world takeover would engulf one country after another in southeast Asia just as it tried to engulf all of Europe after WWII. Just as the Japanese had done only a generation earlier. And it almost happened. Don't try to tell me the Vietnamese wanted the hell of Communism any more than Brits wanted it or want it now. We were better off without the French fighting along side us anyway. It was General Patton who famously said "I'd rather have a German division in front of me than a French division behind me." It's probably wisdom for today just as it was during WWII when he said it.

Ah, Marcy, back from one of your secret undergound meetings where USAians go to mutter quietly about how horrible the Europeans are, before jumping into their BMWs and driving home?

UKwales, Marcus is less a parrot, and more an ostrich. He still can't get over the fact that Iraq II was unjustified, the French were right and he was wrong.

Incidentally, according to Wikiquotes (and others) the Patton quote is wrong:
"Misattributed by former Defense Secretary James Schlesinger on Fox News. Patton commanded French troops, the 2nd Armored Division commanded by Philippe Leclerc, integrated in the Third Army, and had rocky but friendly relations with the French general. For instance, on August, 15 1944 Patton wrote in his diary: "Leclerc came in very much excited. He said, among other things, that if he were not allowed to advance on Paris, he would resign. I told him in my best French that he was a baby and said I had left him in the most dangerous place on the front. We parted friends" "

"The French fought the British at Yorktown because they were at war with Britain all over the world for the spoils of colonial imperialism, not because they had any special empathy for the American cause."

Didn't the American participation in WWII start the same way? Japanese attacked Pearl Habor and only then when America considered it self at war with Axis powers anyway they also started to fight against Germany? Or was it maybe a coincidence and france and Britain only asked America to help them in that war on the very day Pearl Habor was attacked?

#43 ma2

"The French monarchy that bankruped its people".

Why bankruped?

By throwing its lot totaly with the American cause to get ships men&guns,
to fight for your liberty, they were not cowards then or now or any time in between.

You owe the French for your very existance as the United States."FACT".

Once again did you help either French side in their struggle in any shape or form ??.

Absolutely & completely NO.

Why some times French not in step to day? they had been betrayed totaly,

Once bit,twice shy ect.

Sarah Phlegm;

"Or was it maybe a coincidence and france and Britain only asked America to help them in that war on the very day Pearl Habor was attacked?"

You really should learn some history. Britain pled with Roosevelt to put priority on attacking Germany and fighting in Europe because Britain was on the verge of losing and couldn't hold out much longer. Had that happened and Britain fell, The US would have had a much harder time ultimately defeating the Nazis so it agreed. Britain had begged the US to enter the war in Europe since it began. Despite a visit from the Royal Family to the US about two years earlier also to plead, 80% of Americans were opposed to fighting in WWII until Pearl Harbor. Most Americans wanted no part of Europe ever. Many resented that we got involved in WWI. Yes it is true Germany declared war on America but it was Japan that attacked us.

uke of Wails;

""The French monarchy that bankruped its people".

Why bankruped?"

The Battle of Yorktown was only one battle in a vast worldwide campaign the French were fighting against Britain. Britain threw France out of America east of the Louisiana Territory during the French and Indian war a generation before the revolution. The lifestyle of the French Aristocricy and Royal Family cost a fortune and was paid for by taxation. A single dress for an aristocratic woman could cost more than ten peasants earned in a lifetime combined. Didn't you learn that when told the French people were starving and couldn't afford bread, Marie Antoinette said "then let them eat cake?" America would have fought Britain forever if that's what it took to kick them out. Unlike the Canadians who rolled over and played dead, Americans had far more mettle. Hatred for the British Crown became very widespread even though at the beginning of the revolution the population was divided one third for, one third against, and one third indifferent. Americans were already far too independent by nature to be subjects of a foreign nation, even the most powerful one in the world at the time.

Marcus thank you for proving my point with your statement. America didnt care a rats ass about Europe and France or the UK begging for help and only did so because of the Japanese assault on Pearl Habor. So helping them was in the same way anything but altruistic as France may have helped you in your independence wars against the British empire. Logically if you think French people owe you anything for WWII you do the same fr the previous wars then.

If you would be saying that we (Germans) owe you something that would much more likely. I think most Germans today are thankful for the liberation from Hitler. However you can not tell one country to never ever ever ever even think about war again unless for self defence for half a century and then within just months change your mind 180 degree telling them to help lead an invasion to a country just because of some highly suspicious evidences.

Marcus

It wasnt cake, it was brioche, and I think you'll find that Marie Antoinette never said it.

#47 ma2.

All forms of goverment are profligate.

The extra tax needed to fund its involment with the 13 colonies to fight for liberty thus enabling the United states to come in to being,along with the heady success of that endever,plus new ideas of over throwing the old order with the men returning to France,set in motion that struggle /revolution.
The fact remains that the US did not help them in any way,form or kind.Nether Monarcy,or the new men of liberty in France, had any help from you.
The French rightly felt betrayed by a new nation who
obtained thier liberty by French matereial & french blood,when the debt
was called in with the need of help.They felt then as you do now.
It was the British who kept the French from thier
pound of flesh.We kept them off your back, Trafalgar,Waterloo ect ect.
So your Republic came to life with French help & British protection,Europe owes you nothing.If you had waited a few more years you would have had Inderpendance with out the need for war,as did most of the free world when the British Empire allowed all nations under its rule thier total freedom to govern as they wish.

Why the British wanted to rule one third of the worlds land mass & one quater of the worlds folk,also rule all the worlds oceans beats me.With the value systems of today, the past is a very foreign country.

"and I think you'll find that Marie Antoinette never said it"

Just like the Patton quote.

Sarah Phlegm;

"Marcus thank you for proving my point with your statement. America didnt care a rats ass about Europe and France or the UK begging for help and only did so because of the Japanese assault on Pearl Habor."

Almost right. The US didn't fight the Nazis in North Africa and then in Europe because Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, it fought them because its government knew it would have been inevitable that it would have to fight them sooner or later and the sooner the better. Not only was Britain on the verge of falling to the Nazis but the USSR was in dire straits as well. Had the US not entered WWII when it did, it is likely that the USSR would have fallen. As it was, Stalin was very angry that it took the US so long to send help and get into the battle in a way that took some pressure off the Eastern front.

uke of wails;

"Why the British wanted to rule one third of the worlds land mass & one quater of the worlds folk,also rule all the worlds oceans beats me."

Well then let me explain it to you. As a piratical nation that only prospered off of the military conquest, enslavement, and theft of other people's wealth, that was the way it became the most powerful nation on earth. By itself on its own it was and remains a pathetic little island. America has shown it far too much pity and given much too much charity to it IMO and should stop at once, just as it should stop all over the world. We have a saying here; charity begins at home.

And another one!
The Saying: CHARITY BEGINS AT HOME.
Who Said It: Sir Thomas Browne, an English physician by trade
When: 1642

Ironically for Marcy, Browne was interested in combining Science and Religion. Taken in it's context:
"But how shall we expect charity towards others, when we are uncharitable to ourselves?"
The phrase does not appear to be discouraging helping others (as Marcy uses it), but points out that if we're unkind to ourselves (maybe by filling our lives with misguided hatred) then we can hardly expect to be charitable to others.

crosseyes, I don't know if you've picked up the newspaper in recent years or turned on the radio and actually listened to the news but in case you haven't, let me be the first to break it to you. The United States government is as broke as any government has ever been, in fact at the moment it owes about ten trillion dollars. To compound the problem, its financial system is badly broken and it is in a bad recession that only pie eyed optomists think will end sometime in the not too distant future. It is in no position to give charity to anyone, in fact it is at the moment a far more likely candidate to be a recipient of it. At the very least, the US government should be mitigating the problem as best it can by cutting expenses, especially the charity it routinely sends abroad in many forms...such as providing Europe with a military force to defend it so that Europe doesn't need to provide one at its own expense. Capiche?

Capisco (perfectly)

The irony continues: "I don't know if you've picked up the newspaper in recent years"

In fact, I have, and a lot more recently than the 1970s too! Capisci?

crosseyes, I see you don't know any Italians. In Brooklyn they pronounce it "gabiche." What they say in the Bronx where I was born, the toughest place on earth cannot be printed here. Capisco? If you said that here people would think you meant Costco...and then if you explained it they wouldn't stop laughing.

Yes Marcy, I don't know any Italians. Oh no, I do, they're the people from Italy right? You had me confused - for a minute I was thinking they were the ones from New York (the toughest place on Earth -are you having a laugh?).
Again, don't assume that the ignorance you assume in others (Costco, yeh right) reflects badly on me. It's not my problem at all.

"(the toughest place on Earth -are you having a laugh?)."

Well if he hasn't I do :-)
Ever heard of a continent called Africa? I am sure you'll easyly find many places tougher than the Bronx there.

I also happen to know some Italians (not the real ones from the Bronx of course but those from a place called Italy). Neither of those ever said anything like "Capiche". Looks like your Italians were more Italian than mine :-(

By the way, it looks as if asking the US to remove their nuclear weapons from our country might be a topic for next months election here. Still it is going to be a boring one as there are hardly any discussions about what either party wants to achieve. For the first time in (our) history it looks like politicians stop making promises they can't keep anyway, except for all of them wanting to cut taxes of course as if that was ever going to happen :-)

ukawailee;

Oh for joy, for joy. One thousand ukes played the Ode to Joy from the last Movement of Beethoven's 9th symphony, the theme song of the EU at the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ Proms at Royal Albert Hall according to ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ reports.



I can't imagine you weren't there strumming merrily merrily merrily merrily down the stream of life along with them. It must have been like one giant ukawailee convention, the biggest ever. What a racket that must have made.

Sarah Phlegm;

Africa is Disneyland compared to the Bronx in its heyday a few decades ago. It's still a tough place. The New York Yankees didn't get the nickname "The Bronx Bombers" for nothing. There was one year when the World Series was played there I think during the seventies in a night game when the TV cameras panned around and you could see fires having been set everywhere. For the longest time, some parts of it looked like photos of those bombed out German cities just after WWII. Only this was part of New York City during what was ostensibly peace time. Guns, drugs, prostitution, street gangs running rampant, everything you could imagine permeated the place for decades. It may have been cleaned up during the Gulliani administration. It was very bad since I can remember, surely worse than the South side of Chicago or Brownsville in Brooklyn, and I'm certain it was at it pinnacle around the time of Dinkens, possibly the worst mayor New York City ever had. I've got two Rottweiler mixes. One rescued by a shelter in Port Gervis in Upstate New York is part Saint Bernard and weighs 165 pounds. She's a pussycat who tries to hide in the linen closet or under the bed during thunderstorms. The other a mix of a German Shepherd (Alsatian to you) is about 100 pound, was rescued from a junkyard in the Bronx, and is scared of "nothin' and no one on this earth." She prefers to sit outside in thunderstorms in the pouring rain and watch the lightning. The fourth of July is her happiest time when she can go out and watch fireworks. I'm not sure if it's the display in the sky or the booming sound she likes most. She doesn't talk much but she makes her wants and opinions clear in her own inimitable ways. I've never seen a tougher animal.

You are hilarious.

So because one dog is less scared than another the Bronx is the toughest place in the world. Very striking logic there.

I didn't know the Bronx looks anything like: (which is from a township in South Africa). In some slums in India living conditions are probably far worse (and yes I know India is not in Africa!). Some people in this world do literally not know what to eat the next day and where to sleep. A good example for that would probably be Somalia though I can't be bothered grabbing some facts as you will ignore them again anyway. Or how about Bogota the city with the most people murdered per capita (at least it was 1 or 2 years ago). Or how about the people living next to mercury mines (for example in South America or in some African countries) who die latest at the age of 30 because whatever they eat or drink is highly poisoned. Or some African countries in which warlords kill entire villages just because they have a bad day and where women are mutilated because of a religion. Not even mentioning that high percentages of the population suffer from AIDS and hve no chance to ever see a doctor in their life...

Your Bronx is a JOKE compared to living in some other areas of this world and by claiming the opposite you are not only proving how little you know about the world, but even insult the people who don't belong to those fortunate ones like you and me owning a tv, a car with the only real fear being losing the job just to end up in some social safety nets or probably dying from a lifestyle disease resulting from smoking or gluttony.

"I think during the seventies"

There you go a gain Marcus, making everyone else's points for them. If you want I could find some stories about Glasgow, or Liverpool. But both would be picnics compared to the examples raised in post #62.

But here's the worrying thing; you're able to within the space of single blog tell us how backward Europe is AND be proud of the slums of NYC. I am genuinely glad that you have two dogs that no-doubt think the world of you (I like dogs), because it is surely hard for a rational human to feel the same way. Of course, that thought is purely based on your contributions here, I like to think that actually, you're ok, and this is some form of outpouring, designed to keep you sane.

#61 ma2

Whats wrong with a ukawailee convention?if folk are enjoying them selves.
Most probably its best observed just out of ear shot,go on Marcus come over and join in,it beats annoying folk with that key board of yours..