³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ

So what's the point in praying this kind of prayer? I mean I know he used to word 'God', but this is the sort of prayer which would make me an atheist.

Please, please, give me an Muslim Imam to call on the name of Allah, a Rabbi to call on the name of YHWH, a Christian to pray in the name of Jesus, the Christ, a Buddhist holy man to exhort us to pursue enlightenment, a Shaman to invoke his spirit guide, a Humanist to extol the greatness of human achievements and indomitability of the human 'spirit', an 'eco-warrior' who encourages us to rest in the bosom of our 'mother', the earth, anything, anyone, but preserve me, please, from this torturous meaninglessness, and please, please let us not pretend that all religions are equally valid and all religions teach the same thing.

In fact come to think of it the only people he did leave out were the atheists, so he's not as inclusive as he thinks.

BTW if I have misrepresented anyone's religious belief I apologise.

I should apologise too, in the new Spirit of Apology this blog appears to have entered into, what with Klaver and Morrow saying sorry for their opinions and such. So, I apologise, for... everything. Whatever.

I thought the prayer was decent, as prayers go (and it was pretty inclusive) but I get Peter's point about what such 'inclusiveness' does to the balls of the thing.

Peter and John: I rather like the prayer. It expresses so much of the hope that Obama suggests to people. He asks God for protection for the new president. Best of all, he asks God to remind the new president that he is not the messiah. Quite right too. The prayer is a classic Christian or Hebrew prayer, which invokes a "good and Great God". The fact that the prayer is addressed to "God" rather than Jesus or "Father" is irrelevant. Many prayers in the Bible and in both the Jewish and Christian tradition are addressed to "God" in the general sense. He does not prayer to the "gods", in plural; this is a monotheistic prayer.

Augustine

Yes, in one sense, (probably a literary one) it's not that bad a prayer. But for goodness sake who's he talking to?

I mean when I do actually get round to praying, or to talking to anyone for that matter, it sort of helps to know their name.

It is this bit

"The bishop says that was deliberate and that he wished to offer an invocation that enabled people of all faiths to join their prayers with his."

which I was responding to.

And on the messiah thing, it's all very well asking the great God of, what was it, who is it, what the heck am I talking about, to remind Mr Obama that he is not a messiah, but if Barack isn't, who is?

Let's put it this way (and I'm not raising the gay issue) but William tells us that Rick Warren, 'an opponent of gay marriage', will be praying but one of the other four (the bishop) is a partner in a gay marriage.

Now how in, ehem, god's name does that work?


John

I am sorry you felt the need to apologise.

Peter-

Don't worry about it, I'm sorry that you felt you had to say sorry about my apology (which I apologised about earlier and am happy to re-apologise for now).

Where were we? Ah, yes, gay clergy. Well, I think it means Robinson doesn't feel apologetic for being homosexual.

I quite liked the prayer though with some reservations largely related to its asking God to do things. I do not, of-course, believe that God either hears or answers prayers, rather that prayer allows us a perspective shift and opens our mind and being to the power of God.

Personal prayer is a means of talking to ourselves in the medium of God; public prayer is a means of talking to others in that same medium.

Prayer removes us from the immediacy of our own concerns or the concerns of the church, state or world which engage our attention. In God we find a different context for our hopes or fears, a deepening of our joy and the possibility of an easing of our pain, we view our worries sub specie aeternitatis and we touch undifferentiated love.

While many clergy and worship leaders might object to my phraseology I would contend most public prayer is quite obviously addressed to its human audience but, because of its dishonesty, it fails. The objective of public prayer should be to lead one's fellows into an awareness of that Divine Love which those who seek can draw into their lives. It should encourage us to examine and transform our lives and desires in the light of the enabling power of knowing Love.

Hi John

It's OK, you probably didn't need to apologise, now stop worr... crap, that's a different thread, there's been so talk much about the bus ad thing that I am quite overcome with it all. BTW, and before I get back the the prayer, do you think we're going to have to rewrite this year's pantos? "Oh yes there probably is, oh no there probably isn't."

You're right Robinson probably isn't apologetic for being a homosexual, but my point about the prayer and the prayers i.e. those praying, is that I've no flaming idea who they're praying to, what they're praying for, whether they can say 'amen' to one another's prayers or not, and at that point I just want to crack open a beer and watch a game of football.

And to return to the more substantial point, the idea that all religious beliefs can somehow be regarded as teaching the same thing is, I suggest, incorrect.

How can this be, well, I would simply refer to Augustine's comment, that the prayer is essentially a monotheistic prayer, which if true, means that it's not just the atheists who have been left out.

In short, and in actual fact, attempts to include people of all faiths has failed.

Beer anyone?

Portwyne

Why do I like what you say and hate it all at the same time?

Peter wries: "Let's put it this way (and I'm not raising the gay issue) but William tells us that Rick Warren, 'an opponent of gay marriage', will be praying but one of the other four (the bishop) is a partner in a gay marriage.

Now how in, ehem, god's name does that work?"


Answer: What's the difficulty? Some priests support female ordination, sme don't. Some Christians are pacifists, some fight in wars. It ever was so ...

i think the Bish was trying to be as inclusive and unoffensive as he could for a civic setting. the same issues face army chaplains and others with a mixed religious audience before them.

Peter, that well-known theologian Vanilla Ice once said "It's not where you're from, it's where you're at".

I rather suspect that you and I are from very different places indeed but, in what I would consider many important areas, where we are at is pretty much the same sort of place.

I'm with VI on this one: I do not regard the origins of anyone's convictions as mattering very much at all - I may be wrong, but I suspect they are of greater importance for you.

Augustine

I did say it was only an example, (and a limited one at that) but yes, there is a lot of duplicity within the formalities of the church.

Anyway the point I was making is that Rick Warren is on the one hand speaking out against gay marriage (presumably as a sin) and at the same time recognising the validity of one of these 'sinners' to hold office in the church. Which is it, does he agree or not? Personally I think it would be more consistent of Warren not to attend, but maybe he's got carried away with the occasion and feels he can't miss out. Land of the free and all that.

You then say that the bishop was trying to be inclusive, I suggest he failed, in other words his words were fuzzy, but not half fuzzy enough. What do you think? The point being, and this is the substantial one, that all the religions simply can't be equally true. They could of course be equally false, but then that would also mean praying was pointless.

You also say it was a civic setting, well if it was, what is the point of praying? I imagine I'd be at one with someone like Brian on this, if it's a civic ceremony, just keep religion out if it. That way everybody who wants to actually can participate without pretending we're inclusive. As I said, I can't see the point of all this religionising of everything.

So here's what I think. All this state praying malarky is just a kind of state religion and the form the religion takes varies from one culture to another. In the US it is vaguely Protestant, in Europe vaguely Catholic, in China e.g. the Olympic ceremony, a kind of Confucianism and so on. And why is this the case, well it offers a focal point, a common identity, a hope and a vision for the future, and whether people are moved by it or not, or agree with it or not is not the point, the point is that (in this case) a Christian leader was leading a ceremony which wasn't actually focused on Christ, and we may as well just recognise that.

Beer!

Portwyne

My view is that our origins, our journeys and are destinations are all important. Christianity speaks of an 'In the Beginning', of the Alpha and the Omega, of the First and the Last, the Living One who holds the keys of death and hades and it speaks of the greatest gathering of them all, the day of the Lord.

And he didn't get a mention from the bishop!

I suspect Gene Robinson is the anti-Christ.

Interesting that Obama didn't have any Jews or Catholics invited to pray - very inclusive.

And I believe Sarah Palin didn't get an invite either.

Smasher - all I can say is that if he really has seven heads and ten horns it's no wonder he is popular in the gay community...

Now now, Portwyne, no need to present stereotypical views of homosexual promiscuity

I quite liked the prayer though with some reservations largely related to its asking God to do things. I do not, of-course, believe that God either hears or answers prayers, rather that prayer allows us a perspective shift and opens our mind and being to the power of God.

"Personal prayer is a means of talking to ourselves in the medium of God; public prayer is a means of talking to others in that same medium.

Prayer removes us from the immediacy of our own concerns or the concerns of the church, state or world which engage our attention. In God we find a different context for our hopes or fears, a deepening of our joy and the possibility of an easing of our pain, we view our worries sub specie aeternitatis and we touch undifferentiated love."

Portwyne, this is one of the best explanations of prayer I've heard in a long long time. Thanks

I have said it before and I will say it again I am a member of the Scottish Episcopal church and I don't know why the US Episcopal continually uses this Man as a poster child for tolerance and understanding.

Well I suppose this story from Jerome sums it up-

John the Elder (of Apostles fame) in his latter days being carried into church kept muttering "Little children love one another" his fellows asked. Master why do you continually say this? John said and I believe it still rings true "That is all that is required"

Although this man for he is no True Bishop is making a mockery of the Episcopal tradition we must bear no hate towards him as if we hate we have not God in us.

Heretical - thank-you.

Smasher - I loved your riposte (#16) - I suppose I should confess and seek absolution but I'm too Protestant/Liberal to do guilt in any big sort of way...