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Lord Mandelson told the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ today that that the Conservatives are "salivating at the prospect of wielding an axe over public services".
He was speaking ahead of a speech on the government's plans for reform of public services and spending, in which he called Labour the party of wise spending, not big spending.

What he told you, and what he will say duly noted.

Might be worth popping over to Nick Robinson's blog about now, I'd suggest.

No-one can rewrite political history
/blogs/nickrobinson/2009/09/noone_can_rewrite_political_history.html

Golly-gosh, I am feeling almost as well governed as I am informed.

"Robert Peston reports tonight on the year following the crash and the lessons learned."

Learned by whom though? Listening to Obama's speech, some people don't think much has been learned at all! Can sheep learn?

The speech (who wrote it?) was delivered in the den of iniquity i.e New York (#5), and Obama did mention a few names at the beginning (e.g. Bloomberg, Silver and Summers - who are allegedly helping to sort out the mess created by the likes of Fuld and Madoff etc), but to some of us, it looks like Wall Street and The City have just found a new source of investors (sheep), whether they think they're sheep or not. Do sheep get degrees these days? Still, as they're not bleating in the streets, I guess it's all OK then.

Brown's script looks like it was written by a ten year old, this man must be really handicapped at developing ingenuitive thinking, it needs to go on paper in well thought out detail as soon as you come up with it.

Should have posted on the other blog ?

from mimpromptu
Hi Thegangofone
Thank you for all your support. I feel I've had my say for today re: jj & co. Things have reached even more of a beyond a joke activities and ranting on their part. We'll just have to wait and see what happens next.

"Tonight, David Grossman will be assessing who is right"

None of them.

This is just another example of different people discussing the same narrow extremist view. Global ecological systems will collapse in the near future.

All these people are doing is ensuring that will happen.

Celtic Lion

#6 KCL

If only Pinocchio's nose had been cut for timber then we could have built " Jerusalem " in Englands green and pleasant land.

THEY ARE LEGION?

Addendum (#2) , or was it a subtly edgy 'rant' in the modern, anarchistic, vernacular?

#46 Go1 (amended and reposted from Yesterday)
READY - FIRE - TAKE AIM!

Once again you are spewing grapeshot in all directions, and using the same exhausted cartridges, rather than enter into discussion on the issue raised. In your response to my #39 you said:
"Muslims are of many colours and those who are not of the Islamic faith are also of many colours. So its self evident that your view is based upon the racial prejudice that relies on the cosmetic colour of somebody's skin to define what lies beneath"
Your first sentence is self-evident and completely superfluous to the issue raised; but how is it self evident that my view is based upon racial prejudice? I merely paraphrased the Community Secretary's remark:-

He said "In the coming weeks ministers will unveil a programme TARGETTED AT MAINLY WHITE, WORKING CLASS COMMUNITIES" Hence my comment:-
"All the 'Communities' Secretary does is to refer to yet another planned 'initiative' this time to speak to the poorer white folk, having failed with earlier 'initiatives' to get Islamic leaders to integrate." It was Communities Secretary that raised issues of skin colour and race.

You then go on with: "The majority of the population, of all races, are quite happy for the Muslims of this country to be left in peace to worship as they please". What is your source, other than your own bias view? Have you not read of the many petitions and anger that people have expressed against the building of huge edifices to this religion, which is not of English society. And your phrase 'left in peace to worship as they please' is strangely discordant, like the amplified calls to prayer from the growing number of mosques several times a day, and some of the hatred and 'jihad' preached.

You are clearly in a minority on this issue, having single-handed to deny a common view expressed by several posters; using the same irrelevant references to BNP, Hitler, and other cut-and-paste phrases.

I don't like repetition, and some don't think we should speak about ourselves, but you should try to remember the following few facts before firing on one cylinder again.
I’m married to an Asian; have a mixed-race daughter; trained and worked with black races developing their potential; and lived with black partners who I brought to UK, but cultural differences and other factors didn't result in a match. I enjoy diversity - in it's normal setting - not foisted upon and overwhelming English culture and values.
My main gripe remains against the constant overcrowding, and influx and priority given to alien cultures, whilst denying our own.

I have just returned from the Thames Festival, and was happy to sample the exotic wares on sale along the Thames Path, and proud to witness several events reflecting the heritage of my Thames Boatmen and Watermen ancestors, but was relieved to get home from the all-engulfing crowds. Based on evidence from 'UK Border Agency' and Migrationwatch, some there were probably illegal immigrants, but I don't expect the Community Secretary to turn his attention to such unimportant matters, as he is busy trying to keep the lid on the true facts about immigration by supressing any discussion and thus heightening dissent.

indignantindegene (#9) Are these identity problems spreading? I thought they might be genetic, but as regular, normal, people like yourself, are responding to people who aren't here, I'm beginning to wonder. ;-)

KCL

One recent example of Pinocchio's nose on the future sustainability of the planet was presented by one time child indoctrinator John Craven on Countryfile. Mr alleged average steak eater was encouraged to look at the alleged potential environmental damage caused by eating meat. It was seen as a eco-fascist propaganda success when said average steak eater ordered fish as an alternative. Nothing about that fish are becoming increasingly scarce and some popular food species on the verge of extinction.

Obama is a brave man to challenge Wall Street, if only Brown and Cameron had the balls to at least match his proposals. Perhaps the corporate assassination contracts are already being signed, pity he spoils the overall effect of his attempt at sorting out the world economy with all the eco-fascist nonsense floating around. " Cash for Clunkers " is not that bad an environmental measure as you have to buy a more fuel efficient vehicle to qualify, unlike the UK scheme.

HYMNS ANCIENT AND MODERN

Will NuLabour's Lord Mandelson and the new Workers of England Union be singing from the same hymnsheet? I sense some problems in trying to harmonise the government's refrain of 'No Big Spenders' with the words from the WEU website:-

"WEU - Our key goals -
Promotion of mutual respect between employee and employer that manifests itself in better wages and working conditions. To protect our members livelihoods from cheap imported labour and off-shore sweat shops. To change the culture of long working hours in England and to achieve a realistic work/life balance for our members. The elimination of poor health and safety practices at the workplace. Improved childcare arrangements for our women members..." and

The Benefits of joining the WEU -
As well as having the weight of potentially the biggest union in England totally focused on you, the union offers several effective referral strategies to our membership... a service dedicated to resolving work-related disputes between employers and our members...an online facility where effective free legal advice can be given to our members. The union is not hamstrung by being affilliated with the TUC or the Labour Party. For us, our passion is England and the Workers of England - and nothing else".

I must say that I find it refreshing to see the banners rising for ENGLAND once more, its almost like Henry V at Agincourt. Perhaps TUC are getting ready for the inevitable split with Scotland. Let's hope the political parties are doing likewise.

Apologies for the delayed off-thread posting above; the blog-dog snarled at my initial response, so I shall try to be more more tolerant and understanding in future.

Ben Bradshaw MP: another Labour hack..do you ever get the urge to sling the TV out the window? ...I do!
I'm not sure if i can handle this countdown to the general election. And does Mandelson really think we the electorate actually take him serious...I never did, the first time i clapped eyes on him, I knew he was a slime...and Gordon - the idiot - gave him a big seat in the Lords and cabinet. Does Gordon and Co (including Jack Straw) think we are really that thick? ..As for the Brown interview with Preston, Prestons face said it all..Jesus! what a bare faced hack!

Excellent Jeremy tonight - particularly the debate between Norman Lamont & Frank Dobson, and the word "drooling" throughout :o) plus Frank's rant at end. Definitly a classic. Paul & Robert were both on top form tonight, and loved the ending tonight too - archive 'Tommorow's World' featuring the computer,mobile phone etc.

THE UNBEARABLE FACE OF PARTY POLITICS

In the morning Mandelson uses 'salivating', in the evening Frank Dobson uses 'drooling', both to mock the Tories (pathetically) alleged 'joy' over cuts. It is pure pantomime. But is it the political penchant for hierarchies, that gives Mandelson the posh word, and Dobbin the suburban one, or might it be that when they were in the 'scripting meeting' poor Dobbin wasn't paying attention? Either way, the clear evidence of schooling, followed by slavish adherence to script, is depressing to the n'th degree. That they feel such blatancy is in order, takes this conduct, of a major political party, right off the scale.

SPOIL PARTY GAMES

Go1 from friday: can you please read my posts fully before you comment. I was born in Belfast...I live in Manchester..the south. The Liberial MP should now spring to your mind on account there are only a handful. I have a regular Job, joke blower and a blues/Jazz guitarist in a number of bands hence my 'irregular hours'.

NEW IMPROVED WHITER LABOUR (gets those lies 50% whiter)

Surely it is simple logic (hence beyond politicians) that cuts, yielding EFFICIENCY, are a direct measure of precursory INEFFICIENCY. You cannot cut what isn't there. Could it be they are confusing functionality cuts with efficiency cuts?

The Frankness of Dobson was refreshing.

It is incorrect for the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ to keep claiming that the banking system has been in any way saved, the risks have merely been moved to the government from the banks, this means the losses will be born by the government. The question is what are the eventual losses and when will they be realised. If we look across at the US we have a few benchmark numbers to compare to, for example, the FDIC which insures bank deposits in the US up to $100K is currently losing ~40% on every bank it has to shut down, meanwhile a look at mortgaged backed bonds are trading at 28c on the dollar for AAA rated (the same rating as the government) and the slightly lower AA rated bonds are trading at 4c on the dollar. In other words the losses will certainly be larger than 50% for mortgage assets, that would represent a loss to the banks and therefore our government if translated over here to a minimum of £1.5 trillion. So how do you pay a debt larger than the entire GDP, the simple answer would be to borrow the money, but very few people want to lend the UK government money, which is why the Bank of England are using Quantitative Easing to print money and buy the Gilts, the problem the last time the BoE printed £50BN the Pound lost 3% of its value, if you are generous and assume a linear relationship then printing £1.5TN would result in a 100% loss to the Pound, making it worthless. Now the government could introduce a one off wealth tax, as the entire wealth of the UK is some £7TN-£1.5TN losses = £5.5TN, the problem is that introducing such a tax would mean that assets would have to be sold at distressed prices to cover what would be a minimum 27% wealth tax so causing a crash in asset prices and creating more losses for the banks and in turn the government and that is a death spiral we will not be able to pull out of.
The only viable option would be to backstop the government by seizing all private assets like the Communists did in Russia in the revolution. Of course Communism doesn't work and we'll suffer a different, but still calamitous fate.

In short, there is no way out at this point, the only question is when and how the country fails and what happens after wards, are we the next Argentina, Russia, Zimbabwe or Afghanistan?

from mimpromptu
Morning!
I've created a visual profile of jj which is now in my flickr photoshare stream. You are welcome to have a look. My flickr account's name is also mimpromptu.
Have a good day!

from mimpromptu on the future
*
The future is bright, the future is human
For me and my friends, thoust man are or woman,
And not robotic as Newsnight portrayed,
Me do not like jj, jg & co, I am nicely afraid.

‘'ou know what I mean when I say things like that?'
Well, if you don't you'll learn of it one of these days.
*

NEW YORK, NEW YORK

mimpromptu (#21) Newsnight covers significant world events. One persistent theme is the conflict in the Middle-East and how blowback has affected our lives in the UK and USA. Although Jews only comprise about 2% of the entire USA population (and less than half a percent of the UK population), in terms of hegemony, they are the dominant ethnic group in NYC if one takes the distribution of cognitive ability into consideration when looking at the 8 million which comprise NYC (see second link in #2). NYC is where Wall Street is, which is rather important given that the USA is a free-market liberal-democracy where money talks and minorities can .

Try to see the bigger picture when you watch the news, read articles in . Try to be more self-critical about what you believe. Much that you (and the likes of thegangofone) post is inductive, and false. As such, you must, in a public forum, be prepared to be corrected and show that you are capable of learning from your mistakes if you wish to be respected for being rational.

My point here is that sometimes, it helps not to dismiss what one hears or reads as 'conspiracy'. Sometimes it's just geography, demographics, gene-barriers and group political/economic interest, possibly exacerbated by a higher prevalence rate of some of the and other psychiatric afflictions? What are the chances of this prevalence analysis being true for an endogamous (inbreeding) group?

six senior mi6 officers to resign over the ex FO man becoming chief?



the FO neocon castle extends its empire into MI6? The darkness spreads from Mordor?

as long as the banking sector is nationalised trather than 'cuts' there should be a 70% tax on all profits from that industry until it no longer needs the public to support their 'industry'.

is it not a sick joke those who call them self risk taking capitalists are the most state funded industry we have?

unlimited immigration is just as much an extremist policy as no immigration.

#2 jaded_Jean

"Listening to Obama's speech, some people don't think much has been learned at all! Can sheep learn?"

But I thought you Hitler-lovers liked sheep who would follow and not ask too many questions!

Did you learn that genetic variation is greater within a race than between races according to science? No - you promote race "realism".

You will say the views of others are unscientific and then blandly dismiss the science that has led 99% of scientists in the field (an astonishing number) to conclude human impact is changing the climate due to C02 emissions. But you never cite the reasons.

Its all show.

But that is the cult like nature of far right beliefs. Create the illusion of intellect, denigrate the views of non-believers and brow beat them into acceptance.

#16 thecookieducker

You like the blues and you admire the views of Jaded_Jean the race "realist" who reveres Hitler and is "agnostic" on the Holocaust? You vote BNP?

On the Belfast thing then you would indeed know Belfast better than me. So does that mean that a Roma woman four days after childbirth should be beaten? I think not and you could come from Peru and work that one out.

What a silly person.

#22 jaded_Jean

"NYC is where Wall Street is, which is rather important given that the USA is a free-market liberal-democracy where money talks and minorities can acquire and wield disproportionate power."

As ever mindless assertion and no facts when you cut through that.

Males probably wield disproportionate power and perhaps if you did a survey people with brown eyes would wield disproportionate power.

The racial analysis in this context is therefore a total red herring as there is no evidence of any grand design by Jews - there never is or was a Jewish Communist International.

If you try to assert that it is some kind of genetic racial drive then that is also rubbish as the science shows there is in fact very little difference between the races as genetic variation is greater within a race than between races.

Thats why your arguments - if they could even be dignified with that label - are so risible. There is a total absence of evidence - the cult like nature of the far right requires the acceptance of a doctrine like UFO-Gods with no tangible evidence to sustain that belief.

Its my way of suggesting that you howl at the moon when it is full.

#12 indignantindegene

"For us, our passion is England and the Workers of England - and nothing else"

This notion could do with expansion as you associate with that mob of the BNP who promote racial disharmony e.g. the race "realism" of Jaded_Jean, banning Islam and so on.

As above Jaded_Jean tries to instill quite evil notions about Jews because of scatter brained ideas about race and genetics.

So I think people may be taking the words at face value - but they will surely regret their naivety as in the long run the true face of these people will be seen.

Why am I so sure - well they are not really explicitly distancing themselves from the crackpot BNP are they?

One year on from the financial crisis my only worries following the Obama speech are can he get the changes through Congress and there does not appear to be any specific plans to address the credit rating agency/risk analysis problems.

Apparently there were AAA rated instruments that proved to be worthless. If so then how could any board or manager assess the risks properly?

If the credit rating agency's were deemed to be populated by staff who did not understand the instruments then why is it different today?

There also appeared to be many different ways of assessing the risk - some that were in themselves very questionable.

If you have a more sober banking establishment that tries to make sound judgements on the basis of invalid data they are still quite possibly going to take us down.

#11 brossen99

"It was seen as a eco-fascist propaganda success when said average steak eater ordered fish as an alternative. Nothing about that fish are becoming increasingly scarce and some popular food species on the verge of extinction."

A lot of very sad people on the far right suggest there is no climate change but never offer any scientific reason whatever. Attention seeking and so on.

Actually a lot of fish are farmed and that is still far more energy efficient than meat production. Some species like Tuna are under threat but then we should be looking at population levels as there simply are finite resources and a potentially infinite population.

But I am not suggesting any kind of eugenics, euthanasia or other vile ideas of the far right based on non-scientific ideas of race as proposed by Jaded_Jean and the BNP and so on.

Many of that number such would ban Islam.

You have claimed you are a Muslim and you use the word fascist pretty regularly so you must have views about that?

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

#9 indignantindegene

Rather than hack through the volume of your post in a legalistic way why not cut to the chase.

Its not rocket science and so you will be able to follow.

Many people post on here who identify with the ideas of National Socialism and revere Hitler. They vote BNP and promote the BNP. They are "agnostic" on the Holocaust and would replace democracy with tyranny.

So its not unreasonable to identify that when they make oblique comments.

The BNP has two Euro MEP's - for now as people are wising up to them and those "unrelated" elements like the English Defence League.

My evidence that this is a tolerant society is that there is no will to dump democracy and that in this multi cultural society the arguments are against levels of immigration and job availability (though overall we benefit from jobs abroad) and the values of the duly elected officials reflect that - barring Griffin and Brons.

"You are clearly in a minority on this issue, having single-handed to deny a common view expressed by several posters; using the same irrelevant references to BNP, Hitler, and other cut-and-paste phrases."

If people reference Hitler, the BNP and National Socialism then it is quite clearly relevant to respond. Its absurd to say otherwise.

Its quite clearly my democratic right and its quite proper.

Whether its single handed or not is irrelevant. The wider audience does not enjoy communicating with neo-Nazis but I was blessed with a strong stomach and working with the intellectually challenged makes me feel good about myself.

Cutting through far right "cut-and-paste phrases" often does require repetitive answers.

If you don't like it clear off!

Its really quite transparent that this is another futile attempt to drive off anybody who may expose what lies behind the mask of the Hitler-lovers.

just shows you how NuLabour have moved to the right...Dobbo was always seen as a mouthpiece for the right wing ...now he assumes the mantle of a raving leftie, we live in interesting times...it will mean Dennis is in the politburo

gangofone #31

The only fish extensively farmed is Salmon ( it showed white fish on alleged steak eaters plat ) and many claim that such salmon farming is bad for the local marine ecology. I believe that Cod is farmed on a limited scale but most will be imported from Iceland ( stock market parasites change money ). The point is that the majority of land in the UK is only fit for meat production ( grass ) and if we are to ensure " food security " the UK needs to eat more red meat not less.

As with all eco-fascist ideology the key part of the plan is to facilitate the " corporate ethnic cleansing " of indigenous locals from rural areas, this time by damaging the market for the only possible product of small hill farms.

I don't know why you persist with your perversion of my words but I am not and have never been a Muslim or likely to become one. I take great exception to the way they treat their women and would welcome legislation to address this at least in the UK.

Addendum (#32) "Edwards argued that while Lewontin's statements on variability are correct when examining the frequency of individual loci between individuals, the probability of misclassification rapidly approaches 0% when one takes into account more loci. This happens because differences at different loci are correlated across populations — the alleles that are more frequent in a population at one locus and those that are more frequent in that population at another locus are correlated when we consider the two populations simultaneously. In Edwards' words, "most of the information that distinguishes populations is hidden in the correlation structure of the data." These correlations can be extracted using commonly-used ordination and cluster analysis techniques. As Edwards showed, even if the probability of misclassifying an individual based on a single locus is as high as 30% (as Lewontin reported in 1972), the misclassification probability based on 10 loci can drop to just a few percent."



Most of this science is multivariate. That's what QTL means, i.e. Quantitative Trait Loci. It's also how some forensic DNA technology discriminates using microsatellites.

Methinks Alistair Campbell is not very fit and needs to pick a different jogging route.

#36 Jaded_Jean
the #32 is pulled but I assume this is more of your inferiority complex seeking expression by other pretentious means.

I don't actually need to read it as there is no scientific or academic establishment that supports your notions on race "realism" or eugenics. Similarly no academic institutions support your views on the Holocaust - barring the criminal Irving.

Your are like Mussolini in Hemingways "the Biggest Bluff in Europe" posing with a tome that is in fact an upside down dictionary.

Nonsense day after day is still nonsense.

#35 brossen99

"I don't know why you persist with your perversion of my words but I am not and have never been a Muslim or likely to become one. I take great exception to the way they treat their women and would welcome legislation to address this at least in the UK."

Perhaps I have the wrong poster but there was somebody who said that they were not prejudiced against Jews or anybody and often spoke politely to them following a visit to the mosque.

I am not going to dig back to recover the info.

Actually though I never did think you were a real Muslim anyway as you use phrases like "anarchist and Trotskyite" and thats identikit BNP.

By the way prawns and shell fish are often farmed - not so much here.

Food security needs to be weighed against energy security, the coming carbon shortfall and the overwhelming scientific evidence for climate change. A cow produces almost as much C02 as a car and grain feeds a lot more people.

But lets have choice while we can - we are not some crackpot dictatorship!

#29 Go1 "For us, our passion is England and the Workers of England - and nothing else" The quote you repeated is from the new Workers of England T.U., but again with your fixation, you strain to make a link with BNP and in your obsessional, crackpot (your word) manner, associate me with racial disharmony, despite the information I supplied about my background.

In your responses you show a morbid fear and hatred of anyone you assume (on no good evidence) to be of the 'Far Right'. Well, I for one do not live by, or for, any of the labels that are sprinkled throughout the NN blogs, but comment on those factors that I perceive as declining standards of lifestyle in England during the seven decades of my life.

Foremost amongst these are overcrowding, with the main cause being uncontrolled immigration, particularly of cultures that are alien to what may be described as our English heritage. Unfortunately, one of those English characteristics that has been abused is tolerance,leading to a silent majority who do not protest at what is happening to our country and society. In a number of organisations to which I belong (such as U3A and ex-service clubs) I can assure you that protest is there, but muted due to our tolerance, introverted nature and the fact that we have been steadily robbed of the freedom of speech.

But we are learning that we cannot rely on the ballot box, or promises from our 'Honourable Members' to abide by our wishes. Blogging is a temporary relief valve, but if not responded to may turn to more physical action, such as protest marches with the associated violence that these bring. As you say 'people will surely regret their naivety
in the long run' of being too tolerant and not protesting more vigorously

In fairness (another good English characteristic) I note that you often post words of wisdom, such as:-

#31Go1 "Some species like Tuna are under threat but then we should be looking at population levels as there simply are finite resources and a potentially infinite population".

However, you spoil it by managing to drag in the BNP yet again, and don't say what is your solution to the mismatch of finite resources v potentially infinite population.

Some things obviously should be banned or controlled: immigration, particularly of alien cultures, would be a good start, as are the election of an English Democratic mayor (recently featured on NN) and the new Workers of England T.U.

I'm tempted to unfurl my St George's flag, but my neighbours will only ask 'when is the English(?)football team playing?'

LOGICAL QUANTIFIERS VS OBFUSCATION

The reason why race and sex discrimination between groups has become politically incorrect is because making it so is, I suggest, a useful camouflage. If one can make others think it taboo to discriminate between groups, one can, paradoxically, take advantage of entryism and prey upon other groups whilst masking one's own group membership and its networking/nepotism. Is this not how group membership has been used throughout history to secure hegemonic advantage? Does it not blind people to what's being done to them?

This subterfuge appears to take advantage of the fact that most people are not numerically competent enough to think in terms of probabilities. Most people appear to think and talk of race and sex differences emotively in terms of absolutes (i.e ALL). This exploits the fact that not everyone can grasp how the logical quantifiers (i.e all and some) are related, and how they function in linguistic statements of fact i.e. Some(x)=NOT(All(x)) and All(x)=NOT(Some(x)).

Statements of fact have tacit ceteris paribus clauses. This comes down to saying that their are qualifiers, or that the statement is one of frequency or prevalence. In accounting the term is 'actuarial'. thegangofone and others who keep objecting in this forum do not seem to know the language of science. Given that this is supposedly a blog for an educated audience, both readers and moderators should bear this in mind, as a level of numerical and linguistic competence has to be presumed/maintained.

erratum (#41) "This comes down to saying that there are qualifiers.."

I thought Ken Clarke's reply to Mandy on the Marr show was very apt. As he said the idea that any politician is "salivating" at the thought of cutting the amount of money thet get to play with is clearly nonsense. Tory politicians would like to be spending money too it is just that they are responsible enough to recognise that prining & borrowing until we are wholly bankrupt just isn't a responsible thing to do.

Legal migration is just a fact of life - and legal migration is strictly controlled - a fact that many people wish to wilfully ignore. Have you actually seen the requirements and test for either temporary or permanent residency here? There's a list of the - and believe me, every single one has a raft of conditions attached. Our politicians are too craven to stand up for the system they've created and would rather play footsie with prejudice and misinformation.

The fact is that the root of this is cultural discomfort. Societies change, with or without immigration. Lots of things that we take for granted now were once a 'peril' to be resisted for cultural reasons.

Remember that Times leader from the early 80s when they said the McDonald's would never make it here because eating with our hands was "un-English" and would never take off? OK, so it's a trivial example but the principle is exactly the same as complaining that mosques, curries, samba dancing, sauerkraut or steel drums are culturally un-English.

Illegal immigration is the real problem here because it results in people living marginal lives where crime is merely the de-facto choice of occupation in the absence of legal standing. Much easier for the politicians to whip up a froth over other issues, because policing illegal immigration is neither cheap nor easy.