成人快手

That's if they even considered it a "price" to begin with. This could just be yet another example of typical Liberal Democrat behaviour - saying whatever they can just to get their way.

There are 39 Liberal Democrats at Lys Kernow. Surely some of them must be starting to question their allegiances. I guess the rest of them are just happy not to be having an election for another two years.

Fully agree with dtrerise, AV was the expensive bride for forming a coalition. The press are now trying to pretend the no vote is anti Clegg and avoiding the truth, it was a stupid idea all along long and Clegg is just a milk monitor and the liberals are ocer hyped also rans who have had a wake up call.

Come off it Graham, there was no loss of a historic boundary, the county boundary remains at the Tamar, and a minor political constituency boundary has changed. Anyone with half an eye on the political scene would know that the Lib Dems would sell their grannies into slavery for a sniff of political power, and are not to be trusted. It's a source of great amusement that, having watched the Cornish Nationalist fringe for years touting the Lib Dems (esp George and Robertson) as saviours and great Cornishmen who want a Cornish assembly, now see the folly of placing their hopes in the Lib Dems.

In fact, if the Saltash boundary change proved anything, it was how little support there is in the county for Cornish nationalism.

Dave said - In fact, if the Saltash boundary change proved anything, it was how little support there is in the county for Cornish nationalism.

It was never in doubt, you only have to read Cornish nationalist sites to see how diminutive the movement is and based off-shore.

Devonwall has united Cornwall stronger with England and confirmed what the majority think, the nationalists went too far and exposed everyone to the truth, I hope some good can from this and parties like MK learn what the REAL majority in Cornwall think and want and perhaps one day they can act as a voice for everyone not just those who seek division based on a self created history and the creation of language which was declared extinct hundreds of years ago.

The people of saltash were offered the chance of expressing an opinion and that voice was loud by absence, it is such a shame my wonderful town was the scene of such a battle but having lived here all my life I would have been more shocked had it expressed any opinion which was not cosmopolitan and open to everyone, the world is opening up to everyone, we do not need painful boundaries holding us back, Devonwall is dead and the much the better we are for not allowing this shackle to hold us back

Keep telling yourself that Gaz. It might provide you with a little comfort but it doesn't make it true.

Dave, may I point out that, as yet, there have been no boundary changes, there is not, as yet, any such thing as a "Devonwall" constituency.

Gaz, the "Battle", as you put it, has not yet been lost. Your claim (Freudian slip?) that "Devonwall is dead", whilst a pleasant thought, is not true, the battle, the war, goes on.

"I do hope that once the referendum result is known, the Lib Dems will comment on whether they think Devonwall was a price worth paying".
Graham Smith

They could well do Graham, but are the public really all that concerned about the Devonwall. I think the people of Cornwall have more immediate things to be concerned with, cuts in the NHS for one, and do not hold the 鈥淒evonwall鈥� very high in the priority of things. Yes for some there is a battle going on (in their minds) if it wasn鈥檛 the Devonwall it would be something else no doubt.

I do not need to tell myself anything dtrerise, it鈥檚 called facts, lets look at the last election and the performance of MK that鈥檚 fact one for you. Then lets look at the so called 500 who turned out in saltash, who where really much nearer to 200 and a long way short of being representative of any sizeable show against Devonwall, let alone a show of nationalist supprt who I countered less than 50 on that day, that鈥檚 fact two for you.

Finally we have online nationalists, 6 regulars, a guy in Paris, one yank and a aussie and few others who turnout when they can be bothered, hardly movement more akin to citizen smith that鈥檚 your third fact as for my comment about MK direction that is my own personal opinion but one the majority agree with.

Saltashgaz wrote:-
"Finally we have online nationalists, 6 regulars, a guy in Paris, one yank and a aussie and few others who turnout when they can be bothered, hardly movement more akin to citizen smith that鈥檚 your third fact as for my comment about MK direction that is my own personal opinion but one the majority agree with."

As opposed to the online anti-nationalists, 3 regulars, at least one of them from "up North" somewhere, and another who ran away from Cornwall as soon as he could and now wants to tell the rest of us how to live. Numerically, the "online Nationalists" are winning. ;-)

As you say Saltashgaz, the number who showed up to protest the changed political constituency, (even with the lie being put about it was about changing Cornwall's historic boundary,) would not amount to a decent protest from Saltash (pop.15,000 vs 300 protesters at best) , leave alone a show of nationalist strength.

People are interested in Cornish matters, the NHS, council cuts, regeneration of facilities, reopening Crofty, affordable houses, but they are certainly not interested in the backwards looking, constant complaining, doing down, referential to ancient injustices etc that make up the Cornwall of the nationalists.

I remember when the Tamar bridge was shut down in protest on Cornish matters. Maybe the nationalists should try to do that again.

Dave as Clegg has learnt be very careful to ensure you know public sentiment before asking them a question, as it can so easily implode. As has been mentioned a few times above this faux wall only went on to expose the exact opposite to what the fringe wanted to achieve, not for the first time they have been the masters of there own downfall, for me there was never a doubt that there is no wall and never was or never will be.

You can over egg online debate to a level when you start to belief almost anything, but people need to ensure they do not start to believe online blogs represent the vast majority, they represent nothing more than one persons opinion, that is why you need people in the community gauging public opinion not online forums, anyways off for early morning jog, before work

Fully agree with the others that Cornwall has far more pressing concerns than the creation of a nationalist wall, but fully appreciate these are not unique to our region I suspect as has been the case for many centuries prior to now being born in Cornwall is a compromise for most between wealth and lifestyle, I am not going to knock people leaving Cornwall for a better life as I hope my boys will be doing this once they leave university, they will always love and call Cornwall home and I know they will return once they have made their fortune as is the historic Cornish way.

One has to ask what "wall" your on about?
As far as I can see, the only walls are those being built by yourself.

The reason that many Cornish men and women left in the past, was because they had no other choice, it was leave or starve, more recently, leave or be poor. It is not "the historic way", it was a way forced on them, a way that you seem to wish to maintain.

Once again, you have misrepresented the issue, no-one is knocking anyone for "leaving Cornwall for a better life". What we want is a Cornwall where there is a choice, where you do not have to leave Cornwall for a better life. With today's modern communications and infrastructure, it should be possible to have a Cornwall that balances wealth and lifestyle. I want my children and grandchildren to have a choice to stay or leave, a choice based not purely on financial considerations. I wish a Cornwall where it is possible for our children to be able to afford a home, on the wages paid here, where there are decent paying employment opportunities that will enable them to support both themselves and their families in a reasonable degree of comfort, without having to rely on state handouts. I do not believe that such a Cornwall is possible when it is viewed as it is by those in power now, and, it would seem, by yourself.

I, and many others, want change, change for the good, the merging parts of Cornwall with larger, more densely populated parts of the country next door, is not change for the good, and should be resisted by all who have Cornwall's best interests at heart. What Cornwall needs is greater share of the decision making powers, more ability to make decisions locally that will help Cornwall, and the people of Cornwall, whatever their ethnic background, progress and prosper.

Cornwall needs Political, Cultural, and Ethnic recognition, "Devonwall" and the behaviour of the Lib Dems recently, (well all 3 of the "major" political parties actually), is the exact opposite of that. Without such recognition, our children will have no other choice but to keep moving away if they wish to improve their financial lot, that might be OK for some, but not for me.

It's not a way we wish to maintain Trembath, it's a recognition of reality. Some get off their butts and go look for work, which economic migrants have done from around the UK from time immemorial, others sit at home complaining and wanting others to fix things so they are not put out.

First you tell us that you are working for change, but not what this change is, then you shoot yourself in the foot by;

Stating that "merging parts of Cornwall with larger, more densely populated parts of the country next door" is no good.

and

stating that "Cornwall needs Political, Cultural, and Ethnic recognition".

While Cornish nationalists are wasting time and energy on things that do not matter to us Cornish, telling us that we are a country and that England is another, and have no productive ideas to improve the reality of life for us Cornish, then they have no right to complain when people are still moving away to better themselves, and the majority are uninterested in their ideas.

Dave the rave wrote:-
"It's not a way we wish to maintain Trembath, it's a recognition of reality."

No, it's a recognition of the status quo. Some of us have already recognised that, and now wish to move on.

Dave the rave wrote:-
"Some get off their butts and go look for work, which economic migrants have done from around the UK from time immemorial, others sit at home complaining and wanting others to fix things so they are not put out."

Once again, you demonstrate a complete "misunderstanding" of what we are asking for. We do not want others to fix anything for us, we want the ability, the "powers", to fix things ourselves.

Dave the rave wrote:-
"First you tell us that you are working for change, but not what this change is, then you shoot yourself in the foot by;
Stating that "merging parts of Cornwall with larger, more densely populated parts of the country next door" is no good."

My foot is fine, the change we seek has been clearly stated time and time again, I've stated it again, in brief, above, we want the ability, the powers, to fix things ourselves. We need to be able to provide Cornish specific solutions to the problems that face us, what may work in London, or even Plymouth, frequently just creates more problems here in Cornwall, what may work for the Yorkshire dales, could well be a disaster for Cornwall. Cornwall needs that ability to progress and prosper for all the people of Cornwall, wherever they, or there parents, were born.


Dave the rave wrote:-
"...stating that "Cornwall needs Political, Cultural, and Ethnic recognition"."

It does, how is stating this "shooting ones-self in the foot"?

Dave the rave wrote:-
"While Cornish nationalists are wasting time and energy on things that do not matter to us Cornish, telling us that we are a country and that England is another, and have no productive ideas to improve the reality of life for us Cornish, then they have no right to complain when people are still moving away to better themselves, and the majority are uninterested in their ideas."

Cornish Nationalists are Cornish, so we are not "waisting time on things that do not matter to us Cornish". You really must stop building these walls, try being more inclusive.
Have a look at the MK web site, there you will see many constructive ideas to make things better, to "improve the reality of life for us Cornish". You may well learn something. You may also disagree with them, but, at least%

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

When the nationalists have made what they think is their homemade utopia they will then try to restrict the flow of people coming in, we already know what they think and say about the visitors coming into the county.

YC, are you suggesting that they will place limits on immigration, just like every other country in the world?

Well Trembath, I've looked at MK's proposals, such as they are for the economy; \

Guess what? They want more government spending, more things micro controlled by local government, and there's not a single proposal there that would create a job (apart from local government jobs) they would also spend money changing the name of departments to "Cornwall " this and "Cornwall" that.


Not a hint either at where the money for this spending would come from. Cap in hand to Europe again I suppose.

Utterly useless, highly socialist, and not a single nod to how much this would all cost, or who would pay for it.

No wonder Cornwall rejects MK at every election. MK are a pie in the sky joke.

Dave the rave wrote:-
"Well Trembath, I've looked at MK's proposals, such as they are for the economy; \"

Have you?
Start here:-
Check out ALL the headings.
If you require more detailed information, why not ask them, here:-



Dave the rave wrote:-
"Not a hint either at where the money for this spending would come from. Cap in hand to Europe again I suppose."

Try here:-


Dave the rave wrote:-
"Utterly useless, highly socialist"

Your opinion, and what is wrong with being "socialist"?


Dave the rave wrote:-
"...and not a single nod to how much this would all cost, or who would pay for it."

Try here:- ,....again.


Dave the rave wrote:-
"No wonder Cornwall rejects MK at every election."

Cornwall does not, MK have a number of Counselors, and Authority members.

But all this is getting further away from the subject of the thread, so to try to bring it back on course, how about you giving us your opinions of the other parties (Lib Dem, Tory, Labour, UKip) economic policies, and how they effect, good and bad, Cornwall.

He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool; Ignore him.
He who knows not, and knows that he knows not, is simple. Teach him.
He who knows, and knows not that he knows, is asleep; Wake him.
He who knows, and knows that he knows, is a wise man; Follow him.

The majority think they know which category MK fall into as shown by the general election, being the only election which matters. I do not blame MK, just those waiving the flag for them, namely the labouring gardener who left school with no meaningful qualifications or trade. MK has a big enough mountain to climb without the C24 twelve and the CL three forwarding rough opinions on their behalf.

Cornish nationalists do more to confirm why people should reject nationalisms than any anti-nationalist could ever attempt to do, only they can see this elephant in the room, they are convinced they are winning support contrary to ever poll and meaningful show of hands, the very use of the word Devonwall is enough for any proper Cornish person to run and hide as it is clear bigotry

Paint it whatever way you want they were smashed to pieces at the general election and devonwall is a fine example of why.

Saltashgaz wrote:-
"He who knows not, and knows not that he knows not, is a fool; Ignore him.
He who knows not, and knows that he knows not, is simple. Teach him.
He who knows, and knows not that he knows, is asleep; Wake him.
He who knows, and knows that he knows, is a wise man; Follow him."

But, how do we know who it is that knows?
Is it not true, that the wise man knows he knows nothing!
Where do you fit?

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

Do you even read what you post links to Trembath?

Follow your links.

Quote me MK's plans for improving Cornwall's economy.

Quote me MK's plans for paying for their ideas.

Then get back to me.

Dave the rave wrote:-
"Do you even read what you post links to Trembath?"

Yes the rave, do you.

The point is that, unlike what you tried to assert in your post, 13, Nationalists do not "sit at home complaining and wanting others to fix things so they are not put out." They go out there and try to do something about it.
You may not like, or agree, with what they propose and do, but they are not sitting at home complaining.

If you are so interested in MK's proposals and want more detail, ask them, you can use this link to do so:-

Or perhaps you could tell us what you would do, instead of sitting at home complaining.

So in other words, you cannot quote a single thing from the links you gave which would give MK's plans for improving Cornwall's economy, nor their plans for paying for their ideas.

You resort to the sad old trick; "don't aks me to prove what I'm saying, you have to prove it for me."

No deal Tremabath.

You claim MK have an answer to Cornwall's economic difficulties, you quote them here please.

But as they have none, you cannot quote them.

MK have nothing to offer, point proved.

"what is wrong with being "socialist"?"

Well, Mr Trembath, we have just endured 13 years of Socialism and as Mrs Thatcher once said - what is wrong with socialists is that eventually they run out of other people's money.

Dave the rave wrote:-
"So in other words, you cannot quote a single thing from the links you gave which would give MK's plans for improving Cornwall's economy, nor their plans for paying for their ideas."

Oh dear, you want to play the "ignore whats in front of you, and pretend it does not exist" trick. See, 2 can play at that game.

What ever I quote, you will either completely ignore, as in the past, or will attempt to ridicule it as it does not fit in with your own opinions. There are a number of proposals in the links provided, and if you really are unable to find them yourself........

"Cornwall needs its own Development Agency, which if funded on a parity with the Welsh Development Agency, would represent a fresh start for Cornwall."

"Accompanying a CDA there must be a range of Cornwall-based institutions including a Cornish Training and Skills Council and a Cornish Small Business Service to work in partnership with the predominantly small and medium sized businesses of Cornwall."

Funding for these would not be a case of extra money, but the existing money already being spent on existing organisations. The difference being that Cornwall's share of that money would be being spent in Cornwall, by local people (people who live here), with local knowledge, and local accountability. They would be able to invigorate the local economy, for the benefit of all the people of Cornwall.

Now, we all know that you will find fault with this, but you have constantly failed to provide any viable alternative, except, presumably, the status quo, which as anyone who bothers to look around can see is failing badly.


Dave the rave wrote:-
"You claim MK have an answer to Cornwall's economic difficulties, you quote them here please."

I claim that they have proposals to address Cornwall's economic problems, that have a better chance of succeeding than anything anyone else has to offer. In my opinion.


Dave the rave wrote:-
"But as they have none, you cannot quote them."

Wrong.


Dave the rave wrote:-
"MK have nothing to offer, point proved."

Oops, wrong again.

Now, what would you do?
Try some positivity for once, instead of just sitting at home complaining.

backofanenvelope wrote:-
""what is wrong with being "socialist"?"

Well, Mr Trembath, we have just endured 13 years of Socialism and as Mrs Thatcher once said - what is wrong with socialists is that eventually they run out of other people's money."

Just to surprise you, I actually agree with you, on one level.
Socialism has, in its "big party" disguise as The Labour Party, completely failed. In the past, it let the Unions get too powerful, and more recently, it tried to become the Conservative party.
However, we need socialism, we need socialist ideals and principles, just like we need Capitalism, and capitalist ideals and principles. Capitalism provides the economic growth, Socialism provides the ability for the whole population to enjoy and benefit from it, rather than just provide the labour to enable it.

What Mrs Thatcher forgot, is that there is more to life than just money.

"Socialism has, in its "big party" disguise as The Labour Party, completely failed."

Socialism in all its various forms has failed. What we have got is capitalism tempered with welfarism. But this never satisfies the socialists - their aim is to eradicate capitalism.

I doubt very much that Mrs Thatcher forgot that there is more to life than money.

Socialism, welfarism, your getting a bit specific in your 'isms there.

I know what we've got, it's just that it is not what we need. We need Capitalism and Socialism to bounce of each other, to keep each other in check, with a small dash of liberalism to oil it all. No 'ism will provide for all the people, we need 'em all. With just one, all we will get is totalitarianism of which ever flavour the 'ism turns out to be.

I claim;

"Guess what? They want more government spending, more things micro controlled by local government, and there's not a single proposal there that would create a job (apart from local government jobs) they would also spend money changing the name of departments to "Cornwall " this and "Cornwall" that."

and ask Trembath to quote MK's plans for improving Cornwall's economy, and what does he come up with?


""Cornwall needs its own Development Agency, which if funded on a parity with the Welsh Development Agency, would represent a fresh start for Cornwall."
"Accompanying a CDA there must be a range of Cornwall-based institutions including a Cornish Training and Skills Council and a Cornish Small Business Service to work in partnership with the predominantly small and medium sized businesses of Cornwall."


Which goes a long way to prove exact;y what I said!

My thanks Trembath, you have just proved that MK have no plans for improving Cornwall's economy, just fiddling about with taxpayers money on local government jobs for the boyos.