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Rushes Sequences - Lee Siegel interview - USA (Video)

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Dan Biddle Dan Biddle | 09:19 UK time, Friday, 6 November 2009

is an author and a recipient of the for Reviews and Criticism. He is a frequent contributor to the , , and . Lee wrote a blog post for Digital Revolution in which he questioned the faddish and foolish nature of the excitement surrounding the web. The programme two team met with Lee to follow up on his criticisms - discussing the hype around the web's influence upon US politics, the Barack Obama election campaign and freedom of speech.

These rushes sequences are part ofÌýour promise to release contentÌýfrom most of our interviews and some general footage, all underÌýa permissive licence for you to embed, or download a non-branded version and re-edit.

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Transcript:
(Please note that this transcript is the 'raw data' text we receive from a transcription company. It is a tool commonly used in production to facilitate editing and review the content. We publish it for users in that same spirit, rather than it standing as a 'perfect' representation of the content.)

INT: Do you have an issue generally with the amateur content that fills the web?

LEE: Well I only have an issue with it when it influences more respected outlets. ÌýYou know, when CNN had some 12 year old blogger in there commenting on the election or something like that, it's, I find it very [inaudible 1:02:09] and it's a waste of time and they're doing it strictly for commercial reasons. ÌýIt doesn't annoy me that there are amateurs out there, I think to be an amateur is a, is a very rich contribution to culture. ÌýAmateurs do things for love, professional often do things for money and a lot of good can come out of doing something for love, but it's when it's, when amateurism means [inaudible 1:02:34], when it means sloppiness, when it means self indulgence, no I find it very annoying.

INT: Was President Obama's new media strategy a radical new departure in your view?

LEE: I think it was a radical new assimilation in a way, but as I, as I said earlier, I think Obama would have won anyway. ÌýI think that even as he was keeping in touch with his millions of followers through, through the media with the internet, through Twitter and so on and so forth, the opposition was using the internet to hamstring him at every step of the way. ÌýSo if it was a step forward for politics, it was a great step backward as well and I think it left us [inaudible 1:03:22] in that sense. ÌýI don't, I don't think that the internet has contributed to the democratisation of the political campaign. I Ìýthink it's made the political campaign perhaps more in-balanced than it's ever been before.

INT: So to what extent and what part do you think the new media played in getting Obama elected?

LEE: I, I'm going to say something very unconventional and say I don't think it played a role in him getting him getting elected at all. ÌýI think the conservatives were using it with as much skill as he was. ÌýI think what got him elected was the kind of perfect storm of an economic crisis and a two knuckle head ticket in the opposition. ÌýI think it was Sarah Palin and the economic meltdown that got Obama elected, not Twitter.

[CHATTER]

INT: Did the new media get Obama elected?

LEE: No, I think what got Obama elected was the perfect storm of calamities. ÌýThe economic meltdown on the one hand and these two knuckleheads in the oppositions, on the oppositions ticket on the other hand. ÌýIt was [inaudible 1:04:39] and Sarah Palin, not Twitter that got Obama elected.

INT: And in terms of the new media aspect of Obama's campaign, was it born out of a genuine ground swell of support, or was it a carefully orchestrated device and campaign?

LEE: Well both. ÌýI think there was a ground swell of support of Obama, I think there was an exhaustion and a revolution at the end of eight years of Bush's reign and I think that created a ground swell of support, which was then organised very shrewdly and effectively by Obama's people, using the media of the internet among other means.

INT: Do you find it ironic that the whole Obama and new media story played so well in the old media?

LEE: Well I find the old medias are sort of un [inaudible 1:05:30] an enthusiasm for new media ironic. ÌýIt's like someone putting a gun to his head and just shooting it again and again. ÌýI find it spineless, I still don't understand it, it's possible to criticise new media, whilst still adapting to new media. ÌýIt's possible to be sceptical of it, while welcoming it with open arms. ÌýSo I'm just not, my mind boggles when I, when I read the old media's enthusiastic effusive embracing of the internet.

INT: How do you see the web's future? ÌýDo you think it will continue to empower ordinary people?

LEE: No I think, I think the web will really take on the contours of what culture has always been. ÌýThere will be hierarchies, there will be elites, because we live in a democratic vigorous society, there will be many doors open to people. ÌýDemocracy, the democratic vitality will still rule American culture, but there will be the same restrictions, the same exclusive nitches that there have always been. ÌýThere may be more, there may be fewer of them, that remains to be seen. ÌýI'm sure that the internet will look nothing like it look, it looks like now, nothing like it is now. ÌýBut certainly the democratic vitality of American culture is going to be counter balanced by the same old greed and myopia and short sightedness, the same old greed and myopia that it's always been.

[CHATTER]

INT: And now just a final question, this is for our second programme, which is about the relationship between the internet and the nation state. ÌýDevices, the kind of freedom the internet provides ordinary people with, through things like blogs and social networking sites, how much of a threat do you think that kind of freedom presents to the nation state and the idea of governmental control?

LEE: Well no more than what the radio and what television have presented. ÌýYou know or the free press. ÌýWhat, you know newspapers are an authoritarian regime's worst enemy, so what happens when an authoritarian regime comes to power? ÌýThey take, they close down all the newspapers, they take on the role of the TV and the radio stations. ÌýLook what happened in Iran, you had this ground swell of popular support, expressed on Twitter for example and through blogs, it was just crushed and the regime [inaudible 1:08:19] began using Twitter against his opponents very effectively. ÌýSpreading horrendous lies and mis-information, bites of mis-information by the thousands. ÌýSo again, it's a double edged sword and I also want to go back to the way you phrased your question, you spoke of the freedom that blogs present to the individual. ÌýI don't, I don't know what you mean by freedom in that sense. ÌýIf getting on line and being able to write down your thoughts and being able to say pretty much whatever you want and having a certain number of people read it, if that's freedom, I don't know if that is an effective or evenÌý
rich kind of [inaudible 1:09:07] freedom. ÌýI don't know if being able to express whatever you want to express at the moment you want to express it, it counts as freedom. ÌýI'm not sure about that.Ìý

INT: So in that kind of struggle between the internet and the nation state, would you say that the internet empowers Governments as much as it empowers the people?

LEE: I think the internet empowers anyone who can use it and it empowers the people who can use it most effectively, even more. ÌýIt can empower a Government to repress [inaudible 1:09:37], it can empower the insurrection itself. ÌýThe ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ played a great role in the second world war in occupied countries and yet during, without radio, you would not have had the, you would not have had hundreds of thousands of people killed in Rwanda so quickly. ÌýThe people were [inaudible 1:10:03] by means of radio very fast. ÌýSo like all technology, the interent, it's not a cure for human nature, like all technology, the internet is not a cure for human nature, it's a amplification of human nature about the good and the bad of [inaudible 1:10:18].

[CHATTER]

INT: The internet empowers Governments as much as it empowers the people that use it against those Governments. Is that, do you think that's the case?

LEE: Absolutely, it's a double edged sword. ÌýThe media of radio was used by the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ to empower people in occupied countries during the Second World War. ÌýAt the same time, without radio, hundreds of thousands of people would not have been killed so quickly in Rwanda. ÌýThe [inaudible 1:11:32] to violence was spread from, by radio throughout the population. ÌýSo like all technology, it's a double edged, triple edged, the sword has many, has multiple edges, despite what the boosters of the internet say. Technology, no kind of technology is a cure for human nature. ÌýTechnology is an amplification of human nature, an amplification of all aspects of human nature.

[CHATTER]

LEE: The web is pleasure, relaxation, thrill, annoyance, oppression, exhilaration of the web, like any piece of technology is an amplification of human nature, every aspect of human nature.

Comments

  • Comment number 1.

    I tend to agree with much of what Siegel says. Last year was a Democrat year; his skin colour or use of 'new technology' did not win him the election, no matter how skilfully his handlers used it at the time. (It doesn't seem to be helping Obama now.)

    One of the debates that has flowed through these threads is about whether the Web is likely to change human nature, the relationship between citizen and state etc, or is 'just' another form of communication?

    Siegel's point of the Web being an 'amplification of human nature' is I think well made; one thing that I've noticed recently is that far-right groups are posting a lot of videos onto YouTube; they seem to have realised that this is a way of reaching people that by-passes mainstream media. But they are no means alone in this.

    Don't believe the web favours just one political group, religion or set of aspirations or views as to how society should develop, any more than TV or radio does. Perhaps the open democracy, social media just holds a mirror up to humanity so we can truly see ourselves as we are, at that point in time. We may not like all we see.

  • Comment number 2.

    President Obama's success is probably less about new media and more about him being personally multi-media.

    I wrote in the Arianna Huffington rushes page: "Regardless of the era or the field, the talent and their message need to match the medium."

    In a print-only world, if we read Obama's messages they stand-up well (whether on the topics of diversity, respect for ancestors, education or the future forward):

    *

    *

    *

    *


    In a stage-only world, Obama's ability to project himself (voice, body language and physical presence --- charisma) is well known.

    In a radio-only world, the articulacy, timbre and tone of Obama's voice also stands up well (try it, listen to him without watching his image).

    In a TV-only world, his facial expressions and body language also translate well. His features are even, his gaze is steady, he conveys warmth in his smiles and he uses his hands purposefully to emphasize points.

    Now, since the Web is an amalgamation of print, sound, image and stage presence Obama's message only becomes more magnified by the power of 4 cornerstone media synergizing rather than each medium by itself. The sum of the whole is greater than the parts.

    *

    * (2 million hits in 2 days)

    *


    Let's contrast this with Richard Nixon who had a mellifluous voice which was great for radio, but as soon as they started televising the debates against JFK he certainly did not translate across as strongly:

    *

    He was perceived as less trustworthy and his nickname "Tricky Dicky".


    Of course the media was instrumental in the Obama story and success as was situational timing (consensual desire for change that got articulated by the Obama camp and a disaffection for inarticulate Republican candidates with no standout vision, who simply reminded people of Bush's inarticulacy and likewise lack of vision).

    Interestingly, we might be able to say that Obama is a relatively novice President which explains the recurrence of gridlock in the Senate over US healthcare reforms. However, what's distinctive is that his team are not media amateurs.

  • Comment number 3.

    As for whether the Web is capable of changing human nature.............If we can re-imagine our existing constructs of human intelligence and consciousness, we have a chance of evolving human nature.

    After all, we are one of the most adaptable species on this planet.

    There are already anecdotal signs that human nature is being affected by the Web (and, no, I don't mean the truncation of our thoughts into SMS text or supposed loss of attention span). We're discovering that people in countries with a different language and culture to us can also share a similar sense of satire or an appreciation/curiosity for talent in its different shapes and sizes:

    *

    *

    *

  • Comment number 4.

    @SheffTim, I think you're quite right that the web reflects us (its users that is) - after all it's user generated content - it IS (thus far, in the main) the blank piece of paper Tim Berners-Lee describes. The anarchic scrawl we see appearing upon it is the product of humanity - and in no way is it a unique outpouring. Those links provided by APNAB in her second comment (the Chinese Backstreet boys I'd not seen before - brilliant!) would absolutely have found their place on the likes of Tarrant on TV, or Clive James' show before that.

    As Lee Siegel states: 'technology is an amplification of human nature, every aspect of human nature' - it's merely that this new technology means there is a greater, freer outlet for that human nature.

    I think it is the nature of the web's amplification that is most amazing - that we no longer wait for a researcher / editor team to release (amplify) these clips to us in limited TV dispatches. Rather they are constantly arriving and available; the amplification is entirely democratic / meritocratic in the spread of the clips or throughout the collective consciousness.

    Like genes, memes are at the mercy of natural selection; which is why 'viral' is a slightly disingenuous term for these things. A virus is spread through a community, friend to friend, without consent (unless you've taken your child to a - but that's something else!); a meme is spread by consent. Or at least one-way. You may not choose to receive a meme - a video, a blog, a retweeted joke - but the choice to then spread the meme remains with you. If you don't like it, you won't email / tweet the link on.

    If you lose that element of control in the spread of that information then it is genuinely viral. And, well, we all know there's a million dollar business based on the prevention of that kind of behaviour!

  • Comment number 5.

    Hi Dan and PNAB.

    The ' Top 50 Most Watched Videos On Youtube!' URL PNAB posted above was great; I immediately viraled it by posting it on my Facebook status for others to watch.


    I tend to see a meme simply as an idea, concept or influence (memes can of course form parts of larger memes), whilst a viral is a conscious attempt to spread or promote it; e.g. emailing URL links, producing an instructional video and uploading it, a blog post or comment, polemic produced to appear on a web page, photograph, artwork, music track and so on.

    In its earliest form the transmission of memes was the transmission of skills, knowledge and culture from parent to child.
    Society is a competition of ideas; ideas gained and spread by what we see, hear, read or experience.

    Ideas can be and are continually transferred from one individual to another, often imitated or repeated, then further developed by mutation, crossover, adaptation, assimilation and so on. (Dawkins idea that memes like genes, can replicate and evolve.) Ideas can be expressed as objects, art, music, behaviours, and actions well as by printed words or the tools of pedagogy or propaganda.

    Throughout human history cultural transmission of ideas took place along the great trade routes; ideas and knowledge - as well as objects, goods, plants and animals etc - were exchanged.

    What the Web has amplified (and the printing press, the telegraph, telephone, TV and radio before that) is the speed and distance over which these can be transmitted and the number of people that can potentially access these.

    The competition of ideas has become potentially fiercer. (Though many people express little curiosity whilst many others prefer the comfort zone of their own world-view and sites that reflect it back at them.)

    The rate at which ideas (memes) can developed by mutation, crossover, adaptation, assimilation etc consequently has increased.

    Not everyone welcomes innovation, new ideas or 'change'; another consequence could be sharper divisions within societies, an increase in paranoia, anger and anxiety, greater resistance to 'the new' and to change generally.

    (There probably could be a cultural equivalent to Newton's 3rd law; for every action there is opposite reaction. With the difference that there wouldn't always have to be a reaction , nor would it always be equal response; after all human nature isn't governed by gravity.)

    The competition of ideas within societies could become fiercer.

    By no means are all memes benign; in his book 'The Tipping Point' Malcolm Gladwell defines a meme as an idea that behaves like a virus, it moves through a population, taking hold in each person it infects. The tipping point is the name given to the moment in the early stage of an epidemic when a virus reaches critical mass and becomes a full blown epidemic.


    The spread of Hitlerism in Germany in the 1930s or Leninism in Russia two decades earlier could be examples of memes infecting a population. [My examples, not Gladwell's.]

    Others may find exposure to so many ideas too confusing to make sense of.
    This returns us to past DigRev blog discussions as to how people are best equipped to filter and assess information and so on.

  • Comment number 6.

    Memes. This is one of the reasons the Web as "a mirror on us and our society" concept isn't an accurate or helpful analogy for what it actually is, does and could be.

    If everyone will allow me this time-space to synapse a little on mirrors, Newton's laws, consciousness and the electromagnetic (EM) spectrum..............

    Recently, a well-known neuroscientist (who isn't Professor Greenfield but shall remain respectfully anonymous) conducted an experiment with light and some insects to demonstrate that the insects are conscious of EM changes. He then postulated that consciousness is a continuum like the EM spectrum.

    Now, I'm not an academic and I have this other theory whereby consciousness may not be a continuum like the EM spectrum but, instead, a phenomenon that evolves and mutates dynamically and organically like DNA or any other biochemical molecule (ok, like a meme, enzyme or protein).

    Consciousness may not be like EM light because:

    (1.) Light does not react.

    It reflects, refracts, re-emits and acts as a reaction catalyst (i.e. applies heat to excite electrons in the case of UV and photosynthesis). By comparison, DNA and biochemicals DO react and continuously so.


    (2.) Light waves follow established "straight line" oscillatory paths in the absence of any obstructions, particularly steel and lead, and their masses don't change.

    Meanwhile, DNA and biochemicals can mutate randomly, path in non-linear patterns, change their masses due to reactions with other molecules (adding, losing or substituting electrons during the process) --- all of which affect their shape, nature, velocity and future interactions with other molecules.


    (3.) Light can't and doesn't adopt the features of other phenomena it encounters.

    DNA and other biochemicals do.


    Now, likewise, when i read about the Web being a "mirror of us and our society" I reason:

    * Like light, mirrors don't react. They merely reflect, refract, re-emit an image (slightly distorted because no mirror has perfect aperture or concave/convexity that proxies our own natural vision yet).

    * Like light, mirrors tend to offer "straight line" paths; they can't bend themselves round corners and provide a clear reflection from that!

    * Like light, mirrors can't and don't adopt the features of other phenomena it encounters.


    SO..........MY RATIONALE SAYS THE WEB IS MORE THAN A "MIRROR".


    If we really examine the way in which, progressively, the technology is weaving and binding (various protocols cross-connecting and distributing to known nodes, e.g. the way the DIGG, Twitter, every other share button activates to publishing platforms like HuffPost, Facebook, Yahoo, Google Wave, etc.), the way in which content is being contextualized, cross-pollinated and even mutated (e.g. in mash-ups as well as in multiple sourcing of links, text, graphics, images within the same page such as in Wikipedia) and then the way online stories and characters spread via memes and spam-junk propagates like virus.........

    The Web is actually like DNA!!! It's not some perspex/glass over a sheet of silver nitrate-coated cardboard. It's organic. It evolves. It interacts.

    It fosters...........GLOBAL CONSCIOUSNESS.


    Now as for Newton, the most interesting law of motion is arguably the First Law: "An object will remain at rest or in uniform motion in a straight line unless acted upon by an external force. It may be seen as a statement about inertia, that objects will remain in their state of motion unless a force acts to change the motion."

    *


    Newton's First Law doesn't have applicability only in mechanical and aeronautical engineering for the calculation of the propulsion energy needed to accelerate an airplane to take-off or only in figuring out how much excitation energy is needed to make an electron leave its outer shell and interact with another electron shell, btw.

    It certainly has socio-economic-cultural relevance and application.

    If we look at the global financial crisis, the stock charts may have been oscillating but the financial institutions, central banks, hedge funds, etc. were all traveling along the same straight line paths. There was also inertia in the system from parties who wanted everything to stay the way it was. Then the crisis happened (the external forces). Subsequently, the velocity (direction, speed and destination) of the banking sector and the wider economy has been affected.

    Similarly, the Web may experience some external force(s) that challenge it to evolve its course from focusing mostly on online revenue generation to actually collectively SOLVING the conundrums and challenges to Humankind like climate change, education provision, economic equivalence, etc.

    Now, there's an idea --- LOL.


    ****

    Just for fun since I mentioned the EM spectrum, here's a story about a girl who apparently has X-Ray vision.

    *

  • Comment number 7.

    It's not the competition of ideas which ultimately matters. It's in the financing, cultural support and EXECUTION (i.e. implementation) of SMART innovation that determines whether and how our species makes progress and succeeds in our common challenges.

    Otherwise, we continuously make mistakes, learn little from history (or those mistakes) and continue to enable our egos rather than our intelligence, our humanity and our consciousness when trying to make sense of the situation, the relationships involved and take life+death decisions.

    I observe this based on experience of the first dotcom boom and bust and realizing that Web 2.0 technology is not "all that or there and hype is the same but tweeted instead of embedded", the 1997 Asian market collapse and now the global financial crisis, various wars and other events.

    Context and consequence.

    When memes spread it's because someone has made the connection (the context) that their contact will find this content (story, character, ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖr's arcs for the hero) interesting and so they start a sequence of transmittance via connections ===> consequence.


    Ok, time for sleep eye.

  • Comment number 8.

    The below may be of some interest to DigRev. (Unrelated to Siegal or the above.)

    You’ve probably seen this TechCrunch article about how early Twitter reports (from inside Fort Hood whilst the recent shootings were in progress) turned out to be wrong; it is food for thought about how the instantaneous nature of web/mobile communication can also be used to spread inaccurate information.

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