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Regional leagues can only work for teams outside the Football League.
AND as part of a pyramid system.

If we were to change to 3 leagues of 16 it could work. but that just isnt feasable or realistic. But we do need a pyramid system because teams like Deveronvale, Cove Rangers, Spartans etc have tried and failed to get into the SFL.

As you know Annan gained entry to the SFL due to the demise of Gretna in 2008. There was no other way under the current system to achieve SFL status.

As an Arbroath fan i see the merits of a reagional league. I would enjoy playing Forfar, Brechin and MOntrose 12 games a season. But how would teams from this set up gain entry to the SPL2.

Something isnt right. I see the SPL and SPL2 barring promotion to teams for not having good enough stadiums, or poor training facilities etc. I think they are just trying to cut us off.

SPL = SELF PRESERVATION LEAGUE.

Good blog Chris.

Very interesting to hear support from smaller clubs for regionalisation. It makes so much sense in terms of costs for smaller clubs.

A pyramid strucure is long overdue and it will give teams in these leagues incentive to survive and more importantly the quality should improve by the very fact that there is a deterent to finishing bottom.

Would love to see the more ambitious Junior clubs reach the pro ranks through this means: and the structure should create the possibility to get teams in competing at this level.

#1 does however raise a very valid point of concern in terms of access to SPL 2 without the infrastructure and facilities.

My own view is that there should be access without restriction to SPL 2 but not SPL 1.

The latter level should really be the mark for having the necessary facilties and infrastructure but not SPL 2. Access to SPL 2 should be permitted because that would allow clubs who are lacking in resources to at least start down this road.

I don't want to see SPL 1 and 2 be a top tier closed shop either but I can understand an arguement for making it so at the SPL 1 level only.

Would that be a better solution #1?

Good blog again Chris,



Very interesting to hear the view of a non-SPL player on the possible re-organisation, there has been precious few comments from lower leagues on this.

I am slightly baffled by some of the lower league Chairmen preaching Armageddon, so I found it refreshing to hear your Chairman come out in favour of it Chris - he seems a very switched on guy, I've heard him quite a few times talking about football matters. I think regionalisation makes perfect sense for those outwith the 1st Division - it reduces costs, concentrates sponsors & attracts more supporters home & away. The Juniors have shown it can be done, they have a North, East & West region and they work very well indeed. No reason at all why this can't be adopted.

An extra bonus to regionalised leagues would be the invigoration of the Scottish Cup, League Cup & Challenge Cup - I can imagine the Annan fans would get a whole lot more excited about a trip to Elgin if they were doing it as a "once every few seasons" day out instead of twice every single year.

As #1 and #2 have already said, I would be keen to see the governing bodies urge caution on restraint of access to leagues due to facilities. Every league does require a minimum standard, but the Scottish leagues have been a little guilty of over-ambition in it's entry criteria in the past - poor Partick Thistle are still paying the price for building a stand that wasn't required by the time they got promoted.

Nobody really wants to see Cliftonhill et al in the SPL2 - but there is no reason why Glebe or Station Park couldn't be raised to the appropriate level.

With games being cancelled consistantly would scottish teams benefit from playing in the summer?

Might sound crazy but Sam Allardyce has suggested it for Youth Football in England..have a read of

The big problem with a winter break is that the big attendances - other than the local derbys are over the holiday period. If you ask any Div 3 chairman they would be terrified at losing the additional gate money they get over this period. Lets not kid ourselves we are all close to the wall.

Also, why would playing in slightly better weather effect the attendance at Annan, Arbroath, Montrose, etc - its the same people that turn up week in, week out. I would have thought Chris you know most of your own supporters & even recognise some of the opposition supporters!!!! We turn up out of habit, we go to the same pub, we go to the game, we sit in the same seats/stand in the same places & we watch our team make the same mistakes - do you really think there is another 500 people in Arbroath, Annan or Montrose waiting to come to watch Division 3 football - no chance. Or SPL for that matter (its worse than Div 3).

As for the non-league teams - yes they should have to get their stadiums/facitilites up to a suitable level if they want to join the league because some of them make Gayfield look like Old Trafford!!!

Jolomo,

Playing in the summer would be ideal for a lot of reasons.

Fans can watch players playing on a surface that is green and flat, rather than the muddy, heavy pitches that we fans see these days.

Take Motherwell for example, an SPL team that plays on a tattie field in winter. Same with Hibs. Fans, TV companies, players, media etc look at our game as a laughing stock. How do we expect to encourage new fans and bigger crowds in this sort of weather. They can just watch EPL on SKY.

If you played in the summer clubs will still get bumper crowds during derby games. Its not like people just dissapear during the summer. And even at other games, Parents will be more akin to taking their kids to games on a saturday and midweek cause the weather is warmer and they wont have to wory about how cold the kids are.

As for the stadium issue, there is not much wrong with non league teams stadiums. if they meet the minimum standard then they desrve to play in the SFL. Gayfield is probabaly one of the better ones due to its Terracing surrounding the entire pitch with a main stand with 715 seats.

the main problem is weather the clubs that are below the SPL2, are allowed promotion with the stadiums and infastructure they currently have.

Lichtie,

The reason the Scottish game is looked at as a joke is not because of the pitches - it is because of the standard of the SPL. If you look at the Old Firm squads for example how many of those players would get in their respective teams from 5-10 years ago? The fact that Davie Weir is plodding along as the main centre-half at the age of 40 is a joke. It is a testament to our lack of quality in Scotland - there should be 10 or so younger players better, faster, stronger than him that Rangers would want to put in the team ahead of him. Unfortunately, there are none. This trickles down to the rest of the SPL & onwards.

These parents you talk of might & I stress might take their kids to the SPL but will most likely take their kids to Tesco's or B&Q wearing their "teams" football tops!!!! They will not come to the Div 3 games - most would travel 150 miles across to Glasgow than go to their local team - better value for money, better quality & more fun.

Also people do disappear during the summer its called holidays & most are taken between the start of July & the end of August.......

i wasnt saying it was the main reason. But its definetly a contribuating factor in the standard of our game. How do you expect players to perform to their potential in this sort of weather and on these kinds of pitches.

Summer football aids in the development of young players by allowing them to hone their skills on a pitch thats fit for the job.

And these so called parents that go to the lower league teams would gladly take there kids to the games in the warmer weather.

Yes, only the die hards go to the lower league games week in week out. and a lot of them are parents, they would be happy to take there kids along in warmer weather.

but there are quiet a few part time fans that occasionally come to these games throughout the country, if we could encourage them to come to these games more often in the warmer weather then the football club, the players, the fans, the entire game wins.

and in this economic climate parents are less likely to go to an SPL game with its overly inflated prices and more likely to go the shops, watch tv or mabye, just mabye go watch a local game of football.

I hardly call paying £26 to watch kilmarnock vs hamilton great value for money, better quality or more fun. You have to sit in a stand and watch them play footie in sub zero tempertures to a standard no better than the english league 2. Yet at lower league games you can watch the same kind of football for much cheaper, and get to stand and walk around behind the goals on the terracing.

and a lot of families stay at home during the summer hols, and go away at times when its a lot colder ie tattie holidays, christmas, easter.

5. At 10:04am on 18 Dec 2010, Chris Jardine wrote:

There is no doubt regionalising the lower leagues could benefit clubs but I am unsure how promotion and relegation would work.
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I'd imagine it would work in the same way as it does in the Juniors.

In the West Region, the Super League first division has 14 teams this season & 4 get relegated to their relevant local leagues (either the Central league or the Ayrshire league) with two teams coming up from each league to replace them.

The Ayrshire league has 12 teams this season - if two teams go up & the 4 relegated from the Super League are all Ayrshire clubs, then it is a 14 team league next season. If the 4 relegated are all Central teams, there is only 10 in the league next season. I'm not sure where the cut off is, to be honest - I can't imagine there would be a 4 team league permitted!

Very interesting post Chris. Who knows what is going to happen to our league set up but it's clear that the SFL do not have that fans' best interests at heart. For example:-

5. At 10:04am on 18 Dec 2010, Chris Jardine wrote:

I'm in favour of starting the season earlier with a winter break.
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I would agree, Chris.

If you had a generous 8 weeks off for the summer holidays & pre-season training/friendlies, then a winter break of 6 weeks, you would still have 38 weekends with which to play football.

Leagues of 16 teams would give each team 30 league games a season, so this should give plenty of time to get the league games played & the Scottish Cup as well, even allowing for call-offs. It may also allow more League Cup matches to be played on Saturday's too, which would make the clubs, players & supporters place more importance in it & re-invigorate the competition in my mind.

I would also play the Challenge Cup in the second half of the season too. It never makes sense to watch part-time sides like yours Chris knock their pan in for the first couple of months in the season to play games at the weekend & squeeze in Challenge Cup & League Cup midweek. Instead, play the Challenge Cup at the same time as the latter stages of the Scottish Cup, making it more attractive to sponsors & therefore more beneficial.

In relation to the earlier post regarding how we would get around the issue of having facilities to cope with the requirements of an SPL 1 & 2 i would suggest that if lower league clubs are going to be regionalised then why not have state of the art community stadium and training complexes that the clubs can share. Look at the Angus region for example. You have four clubs - Forfar, Arbroath, Brechin & Montrose who are all within about 10 miles of each other. What's wrong with these clubs collaborating with the local council, building a multi purpose facility that all the clubs could use and rotate the fixtures amongst Friday night, Saturday and Sunday afternoons. This way all the clubs have a 1/4 of the overhead and much better facilities.

I agree that people may argue that the "identity" of the club may be lost but if small clubs with little resources are located within such a small distance then why not have some of these facilities dotted around the country.

Frustrated Buddie. IM an arbroath fan . And i can tell you now there is no way in hell your idiotic plan could or ever work.

1. we are 4 seperate clubs.
2. Where do you put this so called community Stadium, in the middle of a field in the middle of nowhere?
3. Arbroath is 15 miles from forfar. 21 miles from Montrose. and 26 miles from Brechin. Montrose is 27 miles away from forfar.
HARDLY call that ten miles from each other.
4. thats like asking St Mirren to play there games at Hamilton cause they are in the same region of scotland
5. or saying Raith Rovers, Dunfermline, Cowdenbeath and East Fife share a stadium in fife due to them being close to each other.

Before you post stupid ideas, think them through.

Our clubs have a history and have survived this long as seperate clubs in seperate towns. As for the stadiums, Arbroath has a capacity of 6488. Reduced to just over 4000 due to over cautious police. We have a seating capacity of 715 and have spent the better part of £500000 improving the facilities there. The stadium is fit for SPL, Why do we need all seater stadiums when they never get filled.

BRING BACK TERRACING.

13. At 6:19pm on 21 Dec 2010, Frustrated_Buddie wrote:

why not have state of the art community stadium and training complexes that the clubs can share.
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I see what you're getting at, but I don't think stadium sharing will work.

Some of ComeonLichties points are valid, but for me the main concern with Scottish football is that it is stale. If Forfar, Arbroath, Brechin & Montrose all share a stadium, their fans will be dragging themselves to the same old stadium & the same old surroundings almost every single weekend, which would be really boring...

For me, the way forward for these sides is either a 3G synthetic pitch which makes their club central to football in their community, or sharing a training complex as has been suggested. Not necessarily another Toryglen, but if these 4 teams (perhaps more?) can pool resources, you never know!!

To the senseless arbroath fan. I apologise if i got my geography slightly incorrect but you have to look at the bigger picture, your club is going nowhere and with the financial constraints that are on the lower league clubs will continue to be a nothing club except to the 400 or so people that turn ip for the games. We need all seater stadiums because that's the rules and until that changes, arbroath will never be allowed into the SPL if they ever managed to get that far.
How can teams like Arbroath expect to support their facilities financially and expect to get any success on the pitch. Community facilities would offer some stability and the facilities would be much better. Until last year St.Mirren were jumping on mini buses scouring the Renfrewshire area for bits of grass to train on before they built their own training ground.
And just to be pernickety, the following distances between the above mentioned locations are :
Arbroath/Forfar - 15.4 miles
Arbroath/Montrose - 12.3 miles
Arbroath/Brechin - 14.7 miles (You must take the long way)
Montrose/Forfar - 19.1 Miles

Your club may have history and possibly a good pie to offer but that's about it. There are better Junior teams than Arbroath but due to Scottish football not having a pyramid system, these clubs don't get the chance to come through.
I think if the leagues did all open up, it would maybe make teams like Arbroath look outside the box and try and show some ambition by looking at shared facilities.
And finally, no need for the tone you use in your post. A simple "i disagree" would have been suffice.