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De-Graft Mensah:Hello and welcome to our live ���˿��� teacher discussion program, Beyond Black History Month, in partnership with TES. I'm De-Graft Mensah and over the next hour we'll be talking about the importance of teaching black and diverse history and experiences, and sharing some ideas about how to do that as well as answering some of your questions. We can't do this in real life unfortunately, but we can still have a good chat with four inspirational guests. So let's do it.

Our first guest is a Baptist Minister, author, speaker, social entrepreneur and founder and leader of Oasis Global, which has opened 53 schools across the UK. It's the Reverent Steve Chalke, MBE. Steve, thank you so much for joining us. You seem to have a lot on your plate, so how you've found time to do it all is beyond me. But to kick us off can you briefly tell us what the Break the Cycle initiative is and how it benefits schools?

Rev. Steve Chalke:Well yeah, thank you. Well thank you, it's great to be here. Break the Cycle is an initiative that we began inside Oasis for Oasis staff and for schools outside of Oasis about two and a half years ago now. We were really aware as we became responsible for schools - Oasis does lots of other things aside from schools. So as we began to take schools on we were really aware in a way that we weren't aware of in other forms of our well. We run lots of supported housing for vulnerable young people around the country and there we have a really great spread of ethnicity amongst our staff. But as we took on secondary schools they were mostly failing, in special measures and they Government began to give them to us, we noticed that the staffing cohort - the nearer you got to the top of the pile if you like, to the SLT, the Senior Leadership Team, the whiter and whiter and whiter those organizations became. And we know, don't we, all of us, that unless your staffing cohort and the leadership is representative of the students, you're gonna leave lots of students behind. You can't be what you can't see and can't be inspired by. So the Break the Cycle was our initiative inside Oasis to begin to recruit, equip, train and enable black and Asian leaders to really make their mark and now we've taken it beyond the organisation as well so we're supporting other schools in doing that by running conferences and creating resources. And we're just about to launch a fast-track apprenticeship course for top black graduates into educational leadership.

De-Graft Mensah:Well that all sounds like amazing work, Steve, and thank you so much for joining us this evening. Now our second guest tonight is an Assistant Head Teacher working in an inner-London secondary school and the co-founder of Mindful Equity UK. It's Youlande Harrowell. Thanks for joining us, Youlande. Now same goes for you, briefly, if you can, what is Mindful Equity UK and what inspired your decision to co-create it?

Youlande Harrowell:Thanks, De-Graft and thanks for having me here. So Mindful Equity was the brainchild of mine and my co-founder, Aretha Banton. During the beginning or the inception of the Black Lives Matter movement there was a lot of data and a lot of commentary around the lack of representation of black and Asian teachers and senior leaders in schools. But particularly schools where the demographic is exceptionally diverse. And even more so in schools where we know, in Chester for example or other locations of that ilk, there isn't that much diversity. So if students are not engaging with diverse staff bodies they're not going to be prepared really for the world outside of the school setting. We were very aware, acutely aware, being that we're both black women of the challenges that we faced when we started our career journeys in education particularly where we wanted to make that jump from the classroom into leadership realm. And with that in mind we reflected back and thought about the challenges we had. But more importantly the successes, the things that helped us achieve the roles that we now have. It goes down to allies, is what we call them. It could be those line managers. It could be those co-teachers, those fellow senior leaders, the women who've made it to the top. It could be that white man in leadership who sees your talent and is interested in supporting and coaching you. But we know that isn't happening enough. We believe that the teacher training programs aren't preparing teachers for those who want to go into leadership, let alone for working in schools themselves. So we started Mindful Equity with three key things in mind. One, let's create a network that we can share ideas not only for those trainees at the very beginning of their teacher journey but also for those allies who want to understand, up and down the country, because often it's very London centric, that it's what, what can we do? What are the solutions? What are those quick wins that are going help support through that pipeline? Two, we operate as a consultancy to work with organisations, not just schools, also universities and training providers. And thirdly, looking into research because currently the research that's out there around leadership for black women, Asian women, is very US centric. And if there is any, it's very London centric and doesn't tell the story of staff in Scotland, in Wales, in Ireland for example let alone the Midlands. So that is us in a nutshell and we both do this as full-time senior leaders. So I'm an Assistant Head as you've said but my co-founder is Aretha, she's an Associate Vice Principal.

De-Graft Mensah:Well fantastic work. It is great to have you with us as well. Now our third guest is also an Assistant Head Teacher working in Bolton this time and the writer of an article on the ���˿��� Teach website about his experiences within the education system as a black teacher in the UK. It's Josiah Isles. Great to have you with us, Josiah. Now could you also do me the same. Can you briefly summarise the article for us, what is it like being a black teacher in the UK and how have things changed during this year that is 2020?

Josiah Isles:Thanks for having me on. I'm really excited to be here. I've been an Assistant Head since the start of September this year and my career previously has all been as a science teacher, then the science leader, going through the ranks. And over the summer, during the Black Lives Matter sort of movement and the protests it kind of occurred to me that a lot of the things that were normal to me, in my life, weren't actually very normal and that we normalize a lot of situations and instances of systematic racism just to get through day to day life. So during that summer period I had a chance, the opportunity to write an article for the ���˿��� just kind of highlighting some of those unconscious biases and some of those problems that we kind of ignore and you know under the carpet that we really should be bringing to light. And I really have this opportunity to to that. So the article's all about really the problems that black people are having in the UK, in education, both as students and as teachers. The unconscious biases that we don't even see or notice that might cause students, or teachers as they move through the ranks, issues. Things like problems with their names or things like problems with getting the opportunity or even that chance. Like Youlande was saying before, often we aren't given that opportunity to really shine and to move up to the next level in the same way that a comparable person who was from a white background would be. And the recognition of that is so important. So what we really have to kind of think about is how we're going to then use that to help our students. My main role as Assistant Head Teacher my real passion is disadvantaged students and to know a lot of our black students fall into that category in some way, shape or form and my whole focus is on how to really make sure those biases aren't keeping them back. Making sure that our students are aware of what things can be held against them unconsciously through their lives and that they're aware of it so that they can challenge it when it happens to them. And also the idea that these black role models that we're seeing around we need to really make sure that our students have full access to these black role models so they can see people who have made, made the tracks the way they want to and continue to make that progress. So they can see the path that they wanna go down, whether it's down education, or whether it's through business. Whether it's through finance. Whatever it is, making sure that all of our students, our black students, can really see someone to kind of lead them on and help them along that way. So therefore that kind of social and unconscious bias aren't holding them back.

De-Graft Mensah:Thanks for that, Josiah. And of course you can read Josiah's full article on the ���˿��� Teach website and I would thoroughly recommend you do so because I found it very, very interesting. And finally, but only because we're doing this alphabetically, we have a historian, a writer, a recent first-class graduate of SOAS, congratulations, and founder and CEO of the Black Curriculum, it's Lavinya Stennett. Lavinya, welcome and like I said, congratulations on the first class degree. Briefly, if you can, can you sum up the Black Curriculum, what it is and why you found it?

Lavinya Stennett:Sure, thank you, De-Graft. So the Black Curriculum, it's a social enterprise that works to teach and support the teaching of black history all year around in order to improve a sense of identity in all young people. So not just teaching in black history month but making sure that positive role models and within the curriculum are, yeah, just taught all year around, right? 'Cause currently what exists in the National Curriculum are a few examples of black history. So we have the trans-Atlantic slave trade and we have a couple of figures such as Rosa Parks and Mary Seacole and we're saying that's not enough. Because young people are ultimately kind of identifying themselves with slavery and that is not the beginning of black history, it's not the beginning of black British history. In fact if we look back into black British history, we see that black people existed in Britain since Roman times and it's really important that young people have those narratives embedded from an earlier age. So not just when they get to university, like I did, studied African studies and found out that our history didn't start with slavery. So it's really thinking about giving young people accessible information, but also ways that are empowering and improves social cohesion. Because when you're learning history it's not just for the classroom, it's how you take that information outside and how then you start to see yourself and interact with other people. So you wanna be able to kind of give young people that information so that they can, yeah, just create a society that includes everyone and everyone has that, I guess, equal understanding of British history more accurately.

De-Graft Mensah:Well thanks for that, Lavinya, that sounds brilliant. And I'm sure all of you guys will agree that we have got a pretty fantastic panel tonight. And a quick reminder that we are live until 8 PM. So if you have any questions for our guests then make sure you send them in via our Facebook page @���˿���Teach or tweet us with the hastag BeyondBlackHistoryMonth. We'll put some of them to our panel a little later on. So to kick things off, Steve, we know teachers don't have it easy to put it mildly, Covid or no Covid. There are countless conflicting priorities and limited curriculum time. So why should we prioritise the teaching of black and diverse histories and experiences?

Rev. Steve Chalke:Because we should never get stuck in the present. We should always look to the future and leadership is about vision. Leadership is about a passion for the world that we want to create. We're going through some tough times now because of Covid and the lock-down and Tier 3s and Tier 2s and all of those things. But you know the truth is that when we emerge from this they'll be new challenges. There's always the emergency. There's always the urgent to deal with and the urgent holds a tyranny over our lives if we're not careful. So we never ever ever get to the important but that's, that's why we should be doing this. And the second reason I'd say is because there is no A Team. Do you know what, I grew up in South London. I am mixed race and my dad was Indian and my mum English. And so I was just called the half-caste, throughout my entire childhood. I mean it was my nickname. I never knew it was a bad thing. It was just what everyone called me and-- but then as I slowly learned that I was actually living in a London that was really quite white at that time and quite racist, you kind of wait for somebody important, clever, special, knowledgeable, trained, equipped to do something about it and then you slowly come to the realisation there is no A Team waiting to take control somehow and push these things forward, it's us. So I think that-- they don't always say don't they, don't waste a good crisis. We shouldn't waste this crisis. We don't want to just reopen. We didn't like "normal" you know? The normal that we had before 2020 was filled with lots of inequalities and lots of inadequacies. In all sorts of ways we don't want to go back to the education that we had then. We want to give opportunity to every child. We want to support every child in their education. And we don't want our staff to work like slaves so that they drop out and give out. So we've got to change all of that and think differently and this issue is right at the centre of all of that. Last comment from me, it was Abraham Lincoln who once said, "the policies of the school room", he called it, the classroom, "will become the policies of Government in the next generation". Education is the place that the Revolution begins.

De-Graft MensahAnd Steve, just [INAUDIBLE] the teaching of black and diverse histories and experiences, what impact does it have on people attainment?

Rev. Steve ChalkeWell it makes, it makes me feel that I'm better. So I went through the whole of my education, I never learnt a thing about India except that the Empire was finally driven out so they split it up into three countries, India, Bangladesh and Pakistan, East and West Pakistan at the time. So it was a totally British view. I knew nothing. You know my roots are in India. I knew absolutely nothing about India at all. I went to India, once I begun Oasis I had the opportunity to go, of going to speak in India for the YMCA actually about youth work. And I went to the place where my father was born, which Madras, Denai as it's called now. And I was astonished! I was astonished by it's art, it's music. I was astonished by it's traditions. It was completely different to the view that I'd been given at, of it. And I suddenly became proud of being half Indian instead of shameful that I was a half-caste. So when a person's reunited with their rich history and the rich history of this eclectic country that we're privileged to be part of that makes us stronger, richer and it makes us stand tall and we can get further. And I'm at risk of running on again, so I'll say one last thing. You know I've got this beef and it's this. That an outstanding school is judged by exam results, it's judged by SAT results or GCSE results or A Level results, or getting some kid to university where they can run up a £30,000 bill and spend the rest of their lives trying to pay it off. What education will be judged by in the future is destinations, not exams. Destinations. And what we have to, and we've got the privilege and the opportunity to do, is create great destinations for kids who never believed that they mattered because their skin colour, their religion has-- or whatever it might be has always counted against them. We need to be that revolutionary cohort or else we'll go down in history as the last cohort that didn't care.

De-Graft MensahYoulande, my next question off the back of that actually, comes to you. How does this benefit all pupils across the UK and not just pupils in diverse cities such as inner city London for example?

Youlande HarrowellI think Steve just earlier touched on a point that I want to make about that. When you sign up to become a teacher it's a social responsibility you have to educate young people because you are, as Abraham Lincoln said, you're creating essentially the society that you want to see. If you look inside your school now and you view the way the students are engaging with each other, if they were to meet someone who was completely different to themselves, how would they respond? And if the answer to that is your concerned, then clearly you, as an educator, have a social responsibility to ensure that these young people are not tolerant, they are accepting of difference. And so there are lots of different ways that you can do that. If you're fortunate that you're in a setting and you have put out a job advert and you've recruited a high calibre candidate who just so happens to be from a different race the responsibility still doesn't lie on that person to show these young people that oh, not everyone who doesn't look like you is completely different. There are similarities, there are things you can learn. There is a plethora of research around the sense of belonging in schools and the power that schools have in creating that belonging environment. Research is unfortunately showing that for disadvantaged pupils when they don't feel that they belong, and one of reasons why a student would feel that they don't belong can be to do with race and whether they can see themselves in the school. If they feel like they're an outsider in that school they are-- there is a direct link between a sense of belonging and academic attainment. And unfortunately the OECD which does a lot of research internationally around these matters is showing that unfortunately sense of belonging is falling. If we continue as we are to push it to the back burner and not address the issues that we've all highlighted and seen, one the protests would've been for nothing and two, we'll have another generation of students who are going to create a society that we are not proud that we had the power to curate. And so that's why, no matter whether you be black, Asian, English, Chinese. Seeing diversity, seeing difference, learning to live alongside and accept those differences and furthermore to celebrate them will create a much more positive society that we can all live in.

De-Graft MensahJosiah, you've actually spoken about the need for more black role models in education and a needful and authentic black British history. Why is this important for you and your students?

Josiah IslesI think one of the main issues is that the black students at the moment sometimes are being stereotyped and I think that stereotyping comes from the lack of identity and the lack of identity comes for the fact they've got no history that they of to speak of. So without pointing out from a very early age all of the good things that black people have done, so, and by early age I mean from the start of education if there are no good examples of what your background and heritage has contributed to the world, then all you're going to identify with is what culture you have at home and also whatever society tells you. And society tells these young black individuals that they're more likely to be in prison, they're more likely to cause you know violent crime. They're more like to you know not have a good job et cetera. But there is no back up of the evidence from history to help them because they aren't taught that. So for me the idea that we need to start this early and by early I mean from the moment they can start to read and write they get to know their identity through the positive aspects, helps to break down the forthcoming stereotyping that's going to emerge through their lives because there are lots of good examples of what black people have contributed to the world. Instead of well you know you're a 18-year old young man, you've got a black hoodie on, you're going to be more likely to be doing this or you're gonna be suspected of doing this or I'm gonna pull you over for just driving a car because you're very likely to have committed a crime. All of that stems from a lack of identity. So we need to build identity within these students and-- but the only way that can happen is if that's curriculum is school. Also, for me, the idea that teaching black history is teaching black history is part of the problem. The Government keeps knocking back you know the idea that we need more black history but the idea is it isn't black history, it's history of the world. It's already acknowledged that the first humans were from Africa so what when we're teaching students this, at what point are we teaching that you know black women contain the gene and it's been proven to be the source of all of our genetic material on the planet, at what point are we teaching this? So what we're really saying is that at the very start of our journey as human beings we are ignoring it. Why are we ignoring it? Because of where it started from and we're ignoring it because it started from Africa. But how can we have a society of humans who don't actually know or are taught that that history, that rich world history, is part of their British history. They know nothing about that. They know lots about specific aspects of British history but nothing else. And how does it help them when they want to be visitors of the world, they want to travel the world, they want to you know, know where they've come from and understand actually this place in, you know Egypt has got this vast history and they are linked to that. Whether they are black or not, everyone is linked to that. And I think that's part of the major problem. And if we can start to do that with our students, my students, students all across the country will start to really believe in themselves and this major issue that we're having with young, black people not having an identity will be lessons. And the need for those black forminals, although it's so important if we were teaching that history in a really rich way it would be lessened also. I mean that's why the role models at the moment are so essential because they don't have that identity, they don't have that, you know that depth of knowledge to fall back on. So we really have to do those two things and get those aspects really embedded in our curriculum right from the moment they start to learn to read and write, because otherwise when are we gonna do it.

De-Graft MensahLavinya, there will be loads of teacher watching right now who are probably asking on a practical level, what can schools do right now? So what can schools do right now? And how can teachers work within the current curriculum framework?

Lavinya StennettThe great question. I think with schools there's a huge hunger at the moment for resources that are diverse, particularly around black British history, given the fact that it is Black History Month and following on from the death of George Floyd. And I think there are many ways in which students actually want that space to speak. So when we've run sessions in the past with students and with teachers we've found out that actually young people want to talk about these things. It's not a burden. It's not like an extra kind of duty to bring into the classroom. So it's really starting with conversations and opening up in the same spaces as well and I think that's really important that we're not re-traumatising students who have kind of just been through a lot of trauma around race, not only in school but also outside. But starting with conversations that give young people the autonomy to actually bring in experiences around race, some questions as well and allowing those conversations to develop in ways that give young people a sense of connection in the classroom. So I think that's the first, most simplest, way. I also think simple ways just through boards, just placing objects, for example objects are a really great way of kind of facilitating dialogue. Like you don't have to go in with a full fledged kind of curriculum on you know the empires within Africa. But you can start with an object and that can kind of lead into those conversations. And you'll be surprised. Actually young people actually know already and want to bring and we've used mahogany as an example before one of our sessions and that kind of was connected to the role of mahogany in the trans-Atlantic slave trade and like it's origins in the Caribbean. And that gave a lot of kind of insight into the ways in which the British Empire was able to kind of use this material that we all know and see today, and that gives young people that sense of I can identity this object with history. So the objects are a great way. I think lastly there are so many resources. I mean like Big Up Tez and also ���˿���. But we've got like a number of resources on the Black Experiences hub and those are some practical ways to kind of bring in examples. And I think the main thing, it starts with you as a teacher, you have to understand that within this, I guess within this teaching and this role of being a teacher there is a duty and an expectation that is facing you as I guess the person who's carrying in knowledge. But you can't have teaching without humility. And sometimes just starting with that, with the fact that it may not be your topic of expertise it actually allows young people to identify with you, because it's a journey and we're all on that journey of learning and I think that's really important as well. So those are three practical ways.

De-Graft MensahWell thanks for that, Lavinya. And thank you to all of our panellists so far. Well I think it's about time we took some questions from our audience, so let's see what's been coming in via social media. Now our first question is from a teacher who wants to remain anonymous and I just wanna put this question to you, Lavinya. Now this this teacher works at a very large primary school which they describe having a small BAME community and they write:- "We want to celebrate our BAME children and families in a meaningful way. I have previously taught pupils about Windrush and celebrated some big names, Rosa Parkes, Martin Luther King, the Women sisters. But this year I'd like to do something a bit different. So if you've got any ideas I would be very grateful." So Lavinya, what ideas can you give to this teacher who sounds like needs a bit of help?

Lavinya StennettWell I'd say first of all congratulations for doing all the work already. Well beginning the work. I think there's so much, not only resources but new knowledge that is coming in, constantly being fed in so they David Olusoga's just launched his children's book of Black and British and I think that's an excellent place to kind of look for new ideas. So one of the key figures that make me, I guess, really emotional and proud of being a black Britain is Jacques Francis who was a salvage diver during the Tudor period and he has exemplified what it means to be skilled but also very courageous and brave. And I think within this month it's really important that we're just not leaning on narratives of just resistance and kind of just showing the plight of black people. But actually just the triumphs and the actual contributions that we've been able to kind of give. So I would start with a celebratory person such as Jacques Francis but also kind of thinking about other Tudor's who also existed at the time as well.

De-Graft MensahThanks for, Lavinya. Now I've got a question that I wanna put to all of our panellists. This one's coming from social media saying:- "Should all schools have a diversity strategy that embeds diversity into the curriculum, resources, events, staff training, staff and governor recruitment, school policies and et cetera." So that's a big question, guys. What are we-- what do we think? Who's gonna take the answer first?

Rev. Steve ChalkeShould I stay something first. This is just one aspect.

De-Graft MensahOh, go for it.

Rev. Steve ChalkeThis is just one aspect. I think-- Oh, by the way before I do, can I recommend another person. Lavinya's recommended a person. Can I recommend Roy Hackett. You've probably never ever heard of Roy Hackett. But I tell you I'm gonna tell you who he is. He's 90, he lives in Bristol and he's the leading candidate to have his statue replace the Edward Colston statue that was torn down. In fact tomorrow, no the day after, I'm gonna make a film about him with Marvin Rees, who's the Mayor of Bristol. Roy came from Jamaica to this country in the forties. In the fifties he moved to Bristol and he set up a Bristol movement that [UNSURE OF WORD]. He organised the Bristol bus boycott. Now everyone's heard the Birmingham bus-- it's estates and Rosa Parkes and what happened. But you've not heard of Roy Hackett and the Bristol bus boycott. I tell you you need to find out. And this man is a legend and he's still alive, he's 90 and their campaign is to have his statue on that thing. So for all your kids in your classrooms the question is, explore and research why should Roy Hackett replace Edward Colston on the plinth in Bristol. Anyway the thing that I'd say is it starts with governments in the end. So I think that this is a really difficult conversation to have isn't it? The conversation about race and it's awkward and uncomfortable and people feel got at. And so the thing is I think that one, we need to get used to having awkward conversations and get used to having awkward conversations in school without them being awkward. In other words look just-- you don't have to say the right words and you know is it coloured people or people of colour and all because people get so confused. I'm a minister besides anything else and people often say to me, because I lead a church, they often say to me, "Oh, Steve, you were so good when our uncle died" or you know "my mum died". "You were so good at talking to me. Why are you so good at it?" Let me tell you something, I'm not good at it at all. All I've learned is that most people are so scared of saying the wrong thing that they don't enter the conversation. I blunder into these conversations because I know to start them, even though I can't find the language and articulate what I want to say to have the conversation. So we need to begin the conversations. But the thing I wanna say is structural, structural racism isn't about whether somebody's been unkind to a black person or a brown person. It's about the structures we have. And so often when we talk about racism everyone feels bad whose white. But the truth is if we can say no, this isn't about individual behaviours it's about structures that exist. Who's on the board? Who governs Oasis? Who's on the board of Oasis? Because no-one today would ever think of having a conversation about the role of women in society without some women being present in that conversation. Hopefully we'd never have a conversation about the inclusion of LGBT people without including some LGBT people in that conversation. We shouldn't be having conversations about how to make our schools, how to decolonise the curriculum or to have anti-racist policies unless we've got black and brown people in the room in that conversation. So it starts with governance, who's on the board. That's where bad things, structural racism begins.

De-Graft MensahI quickly just wanna put something to Youlande and Josiah, actually. We've just had a question come in that I'd love to get your opinions on. So this person say:- "I'm a teacher at a school with a predominantly white cohort of students. Diversifying our curriculum wouldn't be representative of our students or our local community. What evidence is there to prove that changing the curriculum would be of benefit to our students and their attainment?" We'll go to Youlande first.

Youlande HarrowellSo I'm actually going to start with research which isn't actually within a school setting. So there's an organisation called McKinsey that conducted research into the diversity of boards in organisations. Organisations that had more diverse boards, and when I say diverse I include race, gender, sexuality, diversity including all of these ideas, right, were found to have three times more financial gain. The conclusions were that due to the diversity of thought, the different angles that the individuals were able to bring to the conversation meant that they were able to be more financially successful. Now the measure for a business is finance. The measure for our successes as students-- as educators is the young people that we produce who graduate from us whether it be at the end of year six, the end of year eleven, the end of year thirteen. So if our students who are graduating are not able to sit in rooms and have conversations and be more inclusive in their actions, then again, I go back to my earlier point we're not providing that social service that we have to provide. So it is important that we are pushing the agenda and supporting it no matter whether we have a diverse community or not. Because we live in a diverse country first and foremost and as citizens of the United Kingdom, as citizens of the world, it's important that we do-- it's our issue as well.

Josiah IslesI completely agree with that and I'd add that the attainment is irrelevant if I'm completely honest. It's not about the attainment. It's about the fact that we're trying to teach our people, our young people to be better people. Be better people than have come before them. To be really good members of society. To be really good citizens of the world. So the academic attainment is only one part of school. The other bit is teaching them how to understand inclusivity, how to function in a diverse society, which we are regardless of where they live in the UK, even if that school is not particularly diverse they are going to work in places where there is diversity. They might move to a country where it's completely-- you know they might move to India, they might move to Pakistan, they might move to Jamaica. We need to teach our young people how to acclimatise and to work with actually anybody. And they should be able to do that without feeling conscious of it. And if we don't do that in school, they will feel conscious of it. It will be a more of an effort for them to do so. They'll have to actually think about what they're doing and their behaviours. That's because we have, you know embedded, unintentionally, a systematic racism that's come before us. So if we don't include more diversity we're just propagating what's already an ongoing problem of it's not a problem, it's kind of just fine. And it isn't fine. So we need to make sure that actually what we're teaching all of our students whether they are white and in a mainly white school or not is that these are the reasons that we need to behave in this diverse and inclusive way so that they see that as normal. And when they interact with somebody who is brown, you know or black they can automatically, their default is to treat them in exactly the same way. There is no thinking about it. But it's not about attainment at all. It's about teaching them to be the kind of people we want them to be, which is just treating everybody exactly the same so that systematic racism doesn't continue into another generation.

De-Graft MensahAlright, well thank you.

Lavinya StennettI'd also like to come in. I'd like to come in on that cause I think like points were raised and like they–

De-Graft MensahGo for it.

Lavinya StennettThe question starts with the premise that you know Black history is really just for black students and again we're thinking about our society, it's for everybody and going back to the question you asked before around you know diversity strategies, this is where I think it can't just be, just the focus is solely structural. It is about individuals and it is really thinking about individual actions and behaviours and how that perpetuates into society. So you know those white students as Josiah and Youlande said, are gonna be the carriers of the, you know of the information in the future but how about them as individuals as well. When we're not giving an accurate version of British history to all young people, what we're ultimately giving them is a half-truth and they grow up in that half-truth and that half-truth is what breeds racism. It is what breeds ignorance. So beyond success, beyond attainment it's really about giving an accurate version of British history and that is for everybody, it's not just for black students and therefore it's something that should be carried in inner cities, in towns, smaller towns that don't have diverse groups. It's for everybody so yeah.

De-Graft MensahYeah.

De-Graft MensahAnd could I come in just for a sec to pop the back of that cause I so totally agree. Oasis works in some towns where the population is mostly white. We work in some places where the population is mostly black or mostly brown or mostly Muslim et cetera, et cetera. And a really important part of education is to introduce everyone to diversity. The English Defence League breeds in white communities where there's never been a black leader or a brown leader who the kids respect and go "Wow, she teaches great science." You know, "He is the best orator we've ever heard." That changes people's perceptions and it prevents them from becoming prejudice later. And a parallel is that I grew up in a Christian community and I was taught in that Christian community. It was a Protestant Christian community and I was told that all Catholics weren't really Christians and I was taught that Muslims were eminently terribly people and I remember [LAUGHS] as a I went to India, where my dad came from, and I met Muslims and Hindus and I thought, "These people are great!" And I've grown up believing that they're beyond the pale. And I met Catholics when I, you know I got involved in things beyond my denomination. I thought they are wonderful! We always are fearful of people we don't know. But when we get to know someone with that other skin or that religion, we think, ah, wow. And our-- the scales fall off our eyes. That's why- you know sometimes people say that the Senior Leadership Team at school should reflect the cohort and I understand why that's said because in some places we've become responsible for schools where you've got a lot of black and brown kids being just taught by white people. So you want the teaching staff and the senior leadership team to reflect the cohort. But in some places I actually believe, we believe and we work for it in Oasis that the senior team, leadership team not to reflect the cohort for the reasons that Lavinya and the others have just put forward.

De-Graft MensahReally, really compelling conversation guys. But unfortunately we are quick to run out of time so we must move on. So first and foremost thank you so much for all of your questions at home we will try to put more to our panel before the end of the program. And just a reminder that we are live until 8 PM tonight so if you have any questions, please send them in via our Facebook page @���˿���Teach or tweet us with the hashtag BeyondBlackHistoryMonth. And as I say we will try to get through a few more before the end of the show. Now, I'm De-Graft Mensah and you are watching a live ���˿���Teach discussion program called Beyond Black History Month in partnership with Tes. I can't even get my words out this evening. Youlande and Josiah, you're both teaching in secondary schools so we'd better not keep you up too late because I'm sure you have early starts tomorrow morning. But could you both please share with us some ideas about what's actually working in schools? Youlande, you first please.

Youlande HarrowellSo at my current school, The Urswick School in Hackney we have already got black history and diverse histories and stories and narratives embedded in our curriculum. Myself, I'm a psychology teacher and I was having a meeting with my Head of Department that I line manage, strange connection but it works, and we were talking about what we wanted to do in psychology and it doesn't actually feel right for our running of the scheme of work of our curriculum map to start talking about black psychologists. It's not, it would feel false, it would feel shoehorned in. So something we already have done is that we do talk about live cases that are happening, we teach forensic psychology. So we bring in narratives such as George Floyd which can be a motive but we know that our classrooms are safe spaces for students to have those conversations in a caring, thoughtful way. But it can be something as small as when you give students an assessment paper and it has a, what we call a stem, a story, and rather than having Mary and Bob being the parents, it could be Aiysha and Tasmin. They're both the mothers of this child that we need to talk about in attachment. So firstly if students aren't used to the fact that one, not every single person in your exam paper was gonna have a name that you recognise. Two, that the family units that you are familiar with are not necessarily the family units of everyone. It's about having those inclusive narratives throughout what we're doing. So it's those little touches which seem to be nothing but when Aiysha in the classroom sees her name in the exam paper or Olamide sees his name in the question, again it draws them in, they're hooked and it doesn't feel unusual. We start to usualise these things that are seen as abnormal.

De-Graft MensahJosiah, what about you? What's working in your school?

Josiah IslesI think at the moment we're doing quite a lot of work to empower our students, especially at the key stage four level. So year ten for example, year ten, year eleven. We've got a BLM group for example who are really looking at the issues that are affecting our students plus the problem is is that and then by the time they've got to year ten, year eleven they are almost adults, they're young adults. Their thought processes are most of the way there. They've already got issues that they've encountered et cetera. And unfortunately they may or may not have experienced much black history previously. So I think at that point its really important to kind of give them some our in their direction of some of that content that isn't specified by the curriculum. So the BLM group in our school for example has you know done work with the assemblies for black history month. They've looked at making a newsletter, the main newsletter put forward and the George Floyd death et cetera. And they're really starting to make moves into really making progress within our school. And I think that we shouldn't be afraid to give that, to give the students the power in those aspects. Especially as you know people have said previously, a lot of our teachers aren't comfortable with teaching these aspects because they haven't done it before. They've never been taught it themselves. So involve the students, involve them in that process of thinking and the movement of what and you know where you want to get to. Especially if you're in a school that is predominantly white and you're a white teacher yourself and you're teaching you know students of colour, talk to them, get them involved in that process because they've got ideas. You know they're living it day to day, let's get them involved in it, you know and so they feel it's really inclusive and they feel when they leave school "I had a really good experience because, you know teacher X Y and Z did involve me in this discussion. They asked for my opinion. They asked me you know what's happening at home? What's happening in society that's affecting me and that's been brought into the classroom." So if you aren't doing that already in schools I'd say that's something we could really, really be doing. It's just talking to these individuals. Set up a focus group with some students from different years and see how the curriculum caters for them. And if it doesn't, now what are you gonna do about it? And it might just be something really small like you know Youlande is saying, it might be you know looking at texts in English, it might be that you include examples in your videos that contain, you know black people. But it could be that will tip the scales for these students and their experience at school. Get them involved. Empower the students to help with their own learning and what they want to see in the classroom and what they need you know to really make that progress.

De-Graft MensahAnd I wanna quickly go back to you, Youlande and Josiah again, what about-- what can we do more specifically? How are you doing this in the subject areas that you teach?

Youlande HarrowellSo in the case of psychology we are talking about a range of different things across the two years of the course. So as opposed to shoehorning things into October which if it feels appropriate and it links to the education the students will see it to be authentic. The first people to identify something that is false or a little bit it, it's not right, you're not doing this correctly Miss or Sir, the kids will tell you straight away. They know it's not real, it's a front. But if it's a part of what we're talking about and what they're learning and they can see the rationale behind it, it all makes sense. It's about the case studies that we're looking at and making sure that there are diverse case loads we're talking about rather than it just being a white or Eurocentric research base that they hear from. The wider reading that we encourage our students to do outside of the specification because again it's about them being well rounded academics. I'm speaking form a Sixth Form stance, because I want them to ultimately be academically ready for the world of university. So we're not just sticking to that core curriculum which you know the work Lavinya and the Government are thinking about doing is incredibly important, but there is so much power that as teachers we have now to do. That wider reading that our students are doing, whether it be an article that you've picked up and encouraging them to read it to see well actually this an opposing view. There was an article this morning that some of my politics students in our Sixth Form are talking about related to a journalist who had made a comment that it shouldn't-- it's illegal for-- an MP had made a comment that it's illegal for teachers to be teaching that white privilege is a factual piece of information to our students. Now why shouldn't the students be talking about that if a politician is having these comments? And it shows that they're seeing what's happening in the State today. And so having those narratives be shared, allowing for those debates to be had, allowing those diverse thoughts to be had in the classroom, it's a safe environment for them to have those discussions that you can support and ensure that there's no rudeness and that we take on board the differences that are there I think is hugely important.

De-Graft MensahAnd Josiah, very briefly, what about yourself?

Josiah IslesI completely agree. Just picking up on the last comment there about some of the teacher about white privilege for example, I follow [UNSURE OF NAME] and I'm a big fan of his work and his ideas and he recently tweeted, I think it was today actually that he is kind of not allowed or in the UK and US kind of been banned from the curriculum in terms of using his videos in any work because of the idea of white privilege not being factually accurate. And it's been you know kind of more of a psychology type of argument rather than of factual evidence based argument. But I would argue that if we're censoring at that point the students though process isn't giving them that opportunity to really think for themselves then we're causing massive problems. I'm a science teacher and you know for example teaching the Revolution you always give them all of the facts and information and they might be people of faith themselves and you're not telling them what to believe, and that's what we need to get them to understand. You're opening their eyes to different viewpoints, different ways of understanding, different information and they will make up their own minds. But you are an educator, so you enable. You educate in order to help them see different viewpoints. And that's the point. And if we're saying that we can't use certain viewpoints because there isn't hardened fact and research based evidence of which it's almost impossible to gain in the idea of kind of white privilege unless you were-- have experienced it yourself. You know what are we teaching the students? So for me what we can do and what we are doing at school, it's more about the idea that we are trying to really open their eyes to different ideas. Different viewpoints from people and bringing that into our curriculum. Making sure that the students know that they are gonna be taught a vast range of ideas and opinions. And it's gonna be as simple as you know using a text from a black person instead of a text from a white person, even if it's not on that list that you know sometimes given. Little things like that. The emphasis of the scientists in science that are black and have done massive amounts of work. Emphasising the work of women in the stem for example that we aren't currently doing because it will need to angle it at those broader aspects and not focusing on historical aspects that are very coloured in terms of their viewpoints. In terms of you know scientists have to be old white men with long beards et cetera. We need to make sure that we're opening peoples eyes to you know the scientists of the world who are white or black or women and/or you know really expressing those great ideas. So we need to make sure that we're giving the students opportunities to see all these opinions, all those bits of research, all those texts that are by people of colour.

De-Graft MensahNow unfortunately we are very quickly running out of time. But Steve, I wanna ask you a quick question. You have 53 schools around the UK, both primary and secondary schools, can you give us all one example of what you've got in place to promote a diverse curriculum and how that's being done successfully?

Rev. Steve ChalkeWell [LAUGHS] the problem is there are so many examples of that right across the country. But on Friday morning, actually, I'm very much hoping unless it gets dropped that a friend of mine, he's 17 years of age. I've known him since he was a kid. He's black, he's grown up through hardship and poverty. His experience is very much like mine. I was a free school dinner kid, you know my parents, my dad couldn't get work because of his colour et cetera. But Radio 4, the Today program, have asked us if we would go on and talk about our experience of education forty years apart. But my experience of education was in South London where I was taught that-- I never, you know I've never failed a GCSE, that's true, cause I never had the opportunity of taking any because of the school education I had. And so with him, hopefully unless it gets dropped, unless Donald Trump does something crackers which would drive everything bonkers, which means all the news will be dropped because of that wouldn't it. [LAUGHS] On Friday morning I've persuaded the Today program to listen to my friend's story. His name's Ibrahim, he's black, he's Muslim and he is an extraordinary young man. So I think it's in doing those little things all of the time. And that's what I'd say to De-Graft. It's-- we're not gonna win this with some big, big you know-- there's no silver bullet is there? It's just all the little things that we fight to do in our context all of the time. So probably you're watching this and thinking well if only I could get someone on the Radio 4 program and it's not like I can do it easily, but it's all of those little things that we do that we can do that will go to make the difference.

De-Graft MensahLavinya, I just wanna ask a question for you quickly. What can schools do within the art subjects?

Lavinya StennettWhat's that? The art subjects?

De-Graft MensahYes, the art subjects.

Lavinya StennettOh, right, okay. So yeah, like art is such an amazing I guess category of subjects that allows for a lot of creativity and I think it gives young people autonomy who wanna be able to kind of allow students to self-express within them. So I think drama, music, as well as like literal art are great subjects to able to introduce concept. So our curriculum at the Black Curriculum is very thematic so-- and we bring in kind of like our history, reggae music and I think within that you give young people the space to be able to kind of give their opinions. But through art allowing them to kind of translate that medium into something that means something to them. So practically I am a big advocate of playing actual songs and videos in cars. What you would kind of call like resistance music so in some of our sessions we've played like songs by Big Zoo and like we play Bob Marley of course, but like there are some kind of really deep lyrics within that that give young people that space to kind of like annotate the world and really kind of, yeah, get their own views out. So I'd start with songs and videos as well and drama, giving them the space to kind of create their own skits based on what they've just learnt. So yeah, I'm a big advocate of the arts so that's a great question. [LAUGHS]

De-Graft Mensah[LAUGHS] Thank you for that, Lavinya. Right, let's finish tonight with one take-away tip from each of our panellists. One thing a school could change from tomorrow. A simple and ideally low cost idea. Lavinya I've gotta go back to you. You first please.

Lavinya StennettA simple low cost idea, yeah, so Google's free and [LAUGHS] you can start with a lot of information on the Black Curriculum's You Tube page, you've got a few animations as a starter. But I'd say also kind of thinking about having conversations with young people, not just around race but actually introducing the idea that black British history started before Windrush and just kind of like introducing that topic so that we can have like conversations. Because conversations are transactional but also very free. So I think it's important to start with a conversation, yeah.

De-Graft MensahAnd Josiah?

Josiah IslesI'd say empower the students. So talk to them and then empower them to enable them to really get that rick kind of diet of what we're looking for. And if you haven't got a lot of role models your in your school, bring them in and then talk with the people that aren't teachers that might be working in an office, they might be a business owner, they might be a manager of somewhere. It doesn't matter. Bring them in. They will talk to your students.

De-Graft MensahYoulande, you're next.

Youlande HarrowellSo for me I would suggest whatever your subject area find, do your research as Lavinya said, Google is free. Find at least one figure, a different voice, for your course that you can share with the students from any aspect of the world. It could be a racial difference, it could be an ability difference, it might be having limb missing for example. Just bring a different narrative into your course and share that with your students. But also place it somewhere. So is it that for example and Josiah you might have to help me with this, we all know who created the light bulb but actually there is a black man behind the switch which enabled the light bulbs to be used. Josiah help me, who is it?

Josiah IslesI don't know, I was confusing the one who did the traffic light. So there's two.

Youlande HarrowellYes.

Josiah IslesThere's the one who did the traffic light and then there's one do did the bulb.

Youlande HarrowellYeah, yeah. There you go.

De-Graft MensahWe'll have to Google it later.

Youlande HarrowellWe'll have to Google it.

Rev. Steve ChalkeYeah, Google it, definitely. There's a film about it, there's a great film about him, actually.

De-Graft MensahAnd finally–

Youlande HarrowellYeah.

De-Graft MensahI've just forgotten his name as well.

Youlande HarrowellYeah.

De-Graft MensahSteve, I'm actually about to come to-- I'm about to come to you. What's your take-away tip?

Rev. Steve ChalkeA take-away tip is think this evening of one young person that tomorrow morning you can have a conversation with where you really see them and listen to them and develop that support for them. It's amazing the power that is generated when a person in authority takes an interest in someone who doesn't think that they matter. It is life changing and transformational. Who can you have that conversation with tomorrow?

De-Graft MensahExcellent ideas from all round. And I just wanna reiterate that other search engines are available. So you know you can search elsewhere. But thank you so much to all of our brilliant panellists for joining us tonight and thank you so much for watching and I am so sorry we didn't get round to answering all of your questions but thank you for sending them all in. Now needless to say you'll find plenty of resources to support your teaching on the ���˿��� Teach website and on the Tes Black Experiences hub. In particular, we've just published a ���˿��� Teach Live lesson for primary schools presented by Ayesha Tower which explores the inspirational lives and contributions of black writers, musicians, activists and more. It's well worth a watch if you're working with key stage two or second level class. Thanks once again and goodnight.