³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ

13th August 2024

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 117

Presented by Emma Tracey

EMMA- [Cheers and applause] Hello! Hello, hello and welcome to the Access All podcast at the Edinburgh Festival. Yes! [Cheers and applause] Thank you for being with me. We are the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ’s podcast about disability and mental health. And we’re recording from Dynamic Earth in Edinburgh to a live audience. 

AUDIENCE- Yay!

EMMA- Yes, I need as many cheers as possible. Brilliant. Now, for people listening at home you can contact us on email accessall@bbc.co.uk, and were are on social media, Instagram and X, formerly known as Twitter, @³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖAccessAll. Now, on stage with me today are two fabulous guests who are hugely popular and adored by two I’m going to say very different audiences, because we have Blue Peter’s Abby Cook, and we have political comedian Matt Forde [cheers and applause]. Thank you for coming. You’re so welcome. 

MATT- Pleasure, thank you.

ABBY- Thank you.

EMMA- Thank you for coming to Access All. This is really, really exciting and wild for me to be honest. Abby, you’re in Edinburgh. Edinburgh is not known for its wheelchair accessibility, particularly with all the cobbles and the hills. How has the festival been treating you? 

ABBY- It’s definitely not the most wheelchair friendly, but I grew up very close to Edinburgh, so up until basically last year I lived about half an hour away so I was always in Edinburgh. And I honestly think I attribute that and staying so close to it to my very good upper body strength. 

EMMA- [Laughs]

ABBY- Going up and down, especially Cockburn Street [cheers in the audience] – yeah, yeah, right there, that one – actually I love a shop halfway up, and I will say that I love that shop, I don’t really; I just go into it because it gives me a break halfway up the path. But I now have a lovely power attachment that goes on the front of my chair that I attach on and it turns it into basically a motorbike, so I can go round at, like, 18 miles an hour. It’s quite scary, but it means that I can get up and down the hills really easily.

EMMA- And what about you, Matt? This is your first Festival using a walking stick and having a different way of walking and doing things, how has the Festival been treating you?

MATT- It’s been great so far. You know, I’ve been coming here a long time. I’d need walking sticks following surgery, and I also have a stoma and have to self-catheterise. I’m meant to wear my sunflower lanyard, which you’re meant to wear to show that you’ve got hidden disabilities.

EMMA- And do you wear it? Do you have one and do you wear it? 

MATT- I do have one, yeah. I’ve forgotten to wear it today. 

EMMA- Oh, don’t worry, you’re amongst friends today. 

MATT- Thank you very much [laughs]. 

EMMA- You’re fine, fine. 

MATT- But I’m finding it fine. People are lovely and people are very helpful.

EMMA- You’ve only been disabled for a year. How do you find out about all this stuff you can get and help?

MATT- I had a fantastic and still have a fantastic, because I have a stoma I’ve got a really good nurse called Briegh who just told me about all of this stuff. She told me about the sunflower lanyard and the no-wait card that you can use in toilets and things like that to let other people know. So, from day one really, even before, day minus one, before I had my surgery I was told about a lot of this stuff. So, luckily I’ve got a very good nurse who’s kept me abreast of it. 

EMMA- Brilliant Briegh, absolutely. Now, Abby, let’s come back to you because you’ve just done one year as Blue Peter’s 42nd presenter. And as far as we know the first disabled presenter? That sounds…

ABBY- Yes, the first presenter that has a visible disability. We’ll probably never know. 

EMMA- Okay. I think that deserves a cheer though: a year as a Blue Peter presenter [cheers and applause].

ABBY- Thank you very much. It feels like an entire lifetime. It’s been a year but I think I’ve aged five.

EMMA- [Laughs]and how has it been? 

ABBY- Fantastic. It is by far the best job you can ever have. I know that a lot of people say that no two days are the same in their jobs, but with Blue Peter it really isn’t. Like, one day you’ll be training a dog; the next day you’ll be abseiling; the day after that you’ll be meeting Their Majesties King and Queen at Eurovision and giving them a gold badge. Hello. 

EMMA- Oh.

ABBY- It’s a lot, and no two days truly are the same. 

EMMA- And what were your highlights? I mean, you just said one there, that has to be a highlight meeting the King and Queen. But what would your other highlights be?

ABBY- Going behind the scenes at Doctor Who. 

EMMA- Really?

ABBY- I’m such a Doctor Who fan. It’s fantastic, I went in the Tardis. 

EMMA- What?!

ABBY- It really is bigger on the inside [laughter]. I loved it so much, especially with all of the things they’re doing right now to make it a bit more accessible and a lot more inclusive. I think it’s great. And going behind the scenes of that and just meeting the most fantastic actors.

EMMA- And what do you think is the scariest thing you’ve had to do so far? Because we’ve all watched Blue Peter growing up, we’ve all seen Blue Peter presenters doing extraordinary things, which when you’re a kid seems cool and when you’re an adult it’s like, why have you signed yourself up for this? What’s the scariest thing you’ve done? 

ABBY- I mean, throughout Blue Peter’s history you’ve had John Noakes climbing Nelson’s Column; you’ve had Peter Duncan going up the face of Big Ben; you’ve had Helen Skelton going over Battersea Power Station on a tightrope. Basically they will ask you, ‘What are you most scared of?’ and that is the show next week [laughter]. If you’re scared of spiders they’re going to get about a million tarantulas on the show.

EMMA- Because they want you screaming? 

ABBY- Yes, exactly. They love terror. 

EMMA- Kids love terror. We all love terror probably. 

ABBY- Yeah, it’s about being brave and actually doing it, because it’s nice actually watching someone be actually genuinely terrified and then not doing it. But I am terrified of heights, so my first ever challenge was abseiling, which was scary. But actually the scariest thing was a year later they revisited the heights challenge, and I went up an over 30m tree in the middle of Kew Gardens. 

EMMA- How did you get up a tree, Abby?

ABBY- They just winched me up. They just pulled up.

EMMA- I thought you’d climbed it with that upper body strength of yours?

ABBY- No, I didn’t use the upper body strength just to cling onto the tree the full time. I kept shouting at the man who was an arborist – I don’t know what they’re called. 

EMMA- Yeah, I think that’s right. To be honest I think by saying who your Blue Peter presenters were when you were a kid it massively ages you, I reckon. So, mine were probably when I was a small child Anthea Turner and Caron Keating. Matt, do you know who yours were? 

MATT- I think it was Richard Bacon, before he got into trouble. 

EMMA- A role model for us all [laughter]. 

ABBY- Pre-1998.

MATT- Yes.

ABBY- Okay, so mid-‘90s, and that would probably be, like, late ‘80s as well. I have a weird party trick where I can usually tell people’s age by the presenters that they had, or around about the year that they were born. 

EMMA- Oh, I’ve just ruined it. Let’s get someone in the audience then. Let’s get someone in the front row to shout their Blue Peter presenters. This is not right, I shouldn’t be doing this. 

MALE- Mark Curry. 

EMMA- Mark Curry?

ABBY- Oh, that was early ‘80s you were probably watching that. So, you were probably born, usually the average age for someone watching Blue Peter is around about eight, so if that was…

FEMALE- Valerie Singleton. 

ABBY- That’s a long…yeah. I’d say you were probably born, like, mid-‘70s or early ‘70s.

FEMALE- No, much earlier. 

ABBY- Fairly close. Then Valerie Singleton was one of the first presenters that did it. 

EMMA- Amazing lady. Has anyone in the audience got a Blue Peter badge? No. I hope you haven’t got your hands up because I can’t see you having your hands up.

MATT- Oh, someone has.

EMMA- You need to actually shout if you have.

FEMALE- Yes, I’ve got one. 

EMMA- Have you? Oh, have we got a roving mic yet? We’ve got a mic. 

FEMALE- Yes, I have one. 

EMMA- How did you get it? 

FEMALE- I’ve got a green Blue Peter badge. Part of my school we made a green magazine and sold it to the pupils at school. So, we sent away a copy to Blue Peter and they sent us all a green Blue Peter badge. 

EMMA- Brilliant. 

ABBY- That’s very cool. I love the green Blue Peter badge. It was released in 1988, so it was one of the first Blue Peter badges that were sent out. 

EMMA- You are like a Blue Peter walking information book. 

ABBY- Yes, I think it’s a problem [laughter]. 

EMMA- Did you have one before you did Blue Peter? 

ABBY- I actually didn’t, no. 

EMMA- Ah.

ABBY- I earned my first Blue Peter badge by abseiling down off the viaduct. It was dangling off the viaduct, so I had to grab it and stick it to myself halfway down, while crying [laughter], shocks from the back of my head. 

EMMA- I feel like we need to mention that Blue Peter badge and Blue parking badge sound remarkably similar. And I also think that disabled people to be honest we should just get a Blue Peter badge just by default. What do you reckon, can we have that? 

ABBY- Well, yeah.

EMMA- Anything else you can offer us?

ABBY- Yeah. I feel we should design one specifically for that. We’ve got, like, nine badges now. What’s another one? 

EMMA- Well, if we have time later I’ll ask you to name all the badges [laughter]. Anyway, being the first disabled, obviously physically disabled presenter – we need loads of caveats there – it must have been a learning curve for you doing the job and a learning curve for everybody working there. What did you need that was different to other presenters? Was it ready for you and how did it go?

ABBY- That’s actually a really interesting question because when I came on the podcast a year ago when I’d just started they were just figuring out what I would actually need to be able to work effectively. So, at that time they’d built a ramp, because we had a roster where they sit on a lovely couch, so we usually start and end the show there. And they had two steps up to it, so during my screen test I couldn’t sit on the couch with everybody else. So, by the time I actually started, quite a few months later, they’d built a lovely ramp. That was pretty much the only physical adaptation really that they had to make for me. 

EMMA- It would be easy for us to say that we would love this, but wasn’t there something about naps, you need some rest time due to your disability? 

ABBY- Yes.

EMMA- How does that work out? When can you say, ‘I’m off for a kip’?

ABBY- A lot of times when we’re in the studio it can be really long days because we tend to pre-record the show in the morning, and then record a live one at night on a Friday, so it can be quite intense. So, I have a longer lunch break usually than my co-presenters. So, I have a room that I can go to; which is so helpful that I can dip off whenever I need to and just have a rest. It's not always that I can sleep, because you’re so adrenalined up. Children’s TV you’ve got to be hyped. 

EMMA- I bet.

ABBY- You’ve got to have a lot of energy!

EMMA- Yeah, and you sound so energetic every time I hear you on the show. 

ABBY- Yeah, it’s a lot. But it’s nice to be able to actually have a bit of distance to say, ‘I need to go and have a bit of rest time’. Because it’s not just that I have an energy-limiting condition, it’s the fact that also I have chronic pain. And anyone who experiences chronic pain will know that a lot of time that you have a lot of brain fog associated with that, and your brain space is a lot less and the amount that you can almost cope with. And so it’s quite a lot nicer to have the space where you can decompress for a little bit, and then be able to manage your pain and come back to it, so that’s helped. 

EMMA- That’s amazing. Matt, that sounds like something that you’ve probably had to learn pretty quickly? 

MATT- Yes. I mean, I feel like a bit of a fraud really. 

EMMA- No.

MATT- I have hidden disabilities, the stoma and the need to self-catheterise, so I need to use accessible toilets and facilities. I have walking sticks at the moment; I may not need them forever. And these are all because I got cancer last year and I needed, the cancer was at the base of my spine…

EMMA- I’m definitely, definitely going to ask you all about that.

MATT- Okay, yeah. 

EMMA- Don’t worry. 

MATT- I just thought I needed to explain. 

EMMA- Yeah, you’re totally right. 

MATT- I feel like I’m a sort of [laughs]…

EMMA- I feel like I should have asked you those questions earlier now, but it’s definitely on the cards – literally on the cards [laughter]. So, you don’t feel there’s no energy, like, less energy than before? Or even using the stick you're working harder. 

MATT- Yeah, I definitely need to rest more than I used to. And as a result of the surgery that I had I still get lingering neuropathic pain in my feet and legs, so I have to sit on soft things. I can’t sit on hard benches because that would then trigger nerve pain that’s very unpleasant. It just means that at home I just have more cushions. And I’ve got into things like dressing gowns and slippers [laughter]; it’s just being comfortable is something I should have always been into really. 

EMMA- So, it’s a new element. 

MATT- Yeah.

EMMA- Well, Matt you are a political comedian, but you do so much stuff: you have a political party podcast; you present the podcast British Scandal with Alice Levine; you’ve got the rock and roll football show on Absolute Radio; you’ve been on Spitting Image doing impressions of politicians. And really if you ever want to get into character at any point of any politician we’re here for it, for sure. I’m sure Trump would have some interesting things to say about disability. 

MATT- [Trump impression] well, it’s totally made up, by the way. Disability is not a scientific thing [laughter]. And I want to tell you, part of the fake news media here today, Emma I think what you’re doing is so sad [laughter] [cheers and applause]

EMMA- Your show at Edinburgh is called End of an Era, which fair play getting in before Taylor Swift on that title. What is she going to do when she gets to the end of her eras? Honestly. But it’s pretty impressive seeing as a year ago we probably wouldn’t have even let you on Access All, probably wouldn’t have even invited you on. It was at the Edinburgh Festival last year, wasn’t it, that everything just turned upside down, didn’t it? 

MATT- Yeah, I had really bad nerve pain in my leg during the Festival last year, and got an MRI scan because the doctor thought it was caused by a slipped disc. And then two days after the Edinburgh Festival I was diagnosed with cancer; it was a tumour on the base of the spine. And at that point you don’t know how long you’re going to be given to live. You rapidly have to confront your own mortality while they biopsy it and figure out what it is. And it was a rare form of cancer called chordoma, which only one in a million people get. There’s not a lot of research about it, so it was surgery for me. And in October I was carved open, they removed the base of my spine. And part of the reason I need the walking sticks is the final part of the surgery was to cover the gap where the base of the spine was they created a muscle flap by pulling muscles up from my buttocks and across to create this hard bit of muscle. So, I basically got a free bum lift [laughter] on the NHS. It’s just about teaching my legs to move in a way that…because my anatomy has been rearranged, and it’s teaching them to move differently. 

EMMA- Yeah, so without that bit at the bottom basically. 

MATT- Exactly, yeah. 

EMMA- And you’ve mentioned briefly a couple of times that you’re self-catheterised and you’ve got the stoma. So, tell me a bit about that and how you’ve managed that over the year? So, self-catheterising means you have to help yourself to pee because the nerves are not there? 

MATT- That’s right, yeah. So, with the stoma at first I was slightly heartbroken. Obviously the main priority was getting the cancer out, but you realised that you’re going to emerge from big surgery and your body is going to have changed, and you think well, that’s going to… You know, you just feel more vulnerable and you think God, what’s that going to be like when I’m older, and things like that. And then actually you start to see the benefits of not pooing the old way. I’ve got way more free time now [laughter], literally hours back in the day. Although I am reading less [laughter]. 

Cathetering, my god, you know, when they first tell you that you’re going to have to regularly stick a tube down that part of the body you can’t believe it will ever not be a problem. But I just got used it very quickly. I remember my surgeon saying to me, ‘We talk to people who’ve had your surgery, and in a year’s time they never mention the stoma or the self-cathetering’ and I just thought they were words he was giving me to comfort me, but it really is true. It doesn’t bother me at all either one. With the stoma I have to be more aware of what I’m eating; I’m not going to have five whiskeys and a prawn vindaloo just before going to bed [laughter], so I’ve had to make that change as well. But yes, as long as you’re sensible really. It’s really made me realise how adaptable we are as people, so it’s really not been a problem at all. 

EMMA- And is there anything else that’s different since your surgery? 

MATT- Well, because the nerves have been cut to that part of the body, erectile dysfunction. I mean, they told me that last. 

EMMA- Really? 

MATT- Yeah. they were like, ‘Oh yeah, and then this other thing’ and you have to pretend to be cool with it. You’re like, nah, I didn’t need it anyway. But not getting an erection is quite a big deal, especially for me: I work from home [laughter]. It’s a big change. But actually there is stuff they can do. What’s incredible is with tablets and things actually I just think it’s miraculous what they can do for you. So, actually there is stuff they can do; you do get that back as well. I won’t go into too much detail but things have been okay. You just get used to it. Obviously these things are really quite heartbreaking things to be told, and then with help day by day it just gets a little bit easier, a little easier, and then you’re just thinking about these things less and it’s just the way that you do things. I went to Glastonbury a few weeks ago on walking sticks with a bagful of nappies and catheters and…

EMMA- I was going to say, your bags must be bigger now and heavier. 

MATT- They are, yeah [laughs]. 

EMMA- Did you go to the special bit of Glastonbury, the disability campsite, or did you just wing it?

MATT- I glamped, which I realise made things a bit easier. But I did have access to some of the accessible services which was great, it made it a lot easier. I mean, the viewing platforms they’re basically VIP areas; it’s the best view in the house. 

EMMA- Really?

MATT- It’s great, yeah. I saw Dua Lipa from, like, a raised platform, it was phenomenal. 

EMMA- Abby, next year? 

ABBY- Yeah, camping ain’t my style [laughter]. Even glamping no. I love a shower. 

EMMA- Me too, and a hot cup of tea for sure. Matt, you’re a politics fanatic, am I fair to say that?

MATT- Yes. 

EMMA- And like us on Access All you went hell for leather trying to interview as many politicians as possible in the run-up to the General Election. You managed hundreds; we managed seven [laughter], and that was a marathon for us. But I just wondered, have you thought about politics a bit differently in the past year in terms of being represented and other disabled people being represented by people standing for election and MPs? And also the sort of policies and how they’re prioritised for disabled people? 

MATT- Definitely, not just political but in every regard. Just having to use accessible toilets: I think it you’re not affected by something it’s very easy to think, well in 2024 there’s loads of stuff for people. And then you have to use these things yourself and the state of so many accessible toilets in Britain is disgraceful. And just going to pubs where they’re just used as, like, storerooms. I went into one where they opened the door as I was getting ready. I was like, ‘What are you doing?’ They said, ‘Oh, you can’t use it’. I said, ‘I was here last week and I used it’. And they were lying to me and said the flush doesn’t work, so I flushed it in front of them, ‘It seems like it’s working to me’. 

EMMA- So, is that just because they were using it as a storeroom? 

MATT- They were using it as a storeroom. They said, ‘Oh, well there’s a gents upstairs’. I said, ‘Well I can probably get up those stairs, but someone in a wheelchair would not be able to do that’. So, now if I go to a venue and it’s not good enough I email them all the time, and I never go back regardless of what they say. I think it’s important as well to publicly praise venues that are good: Glastonbury was really good; Wembley Stadium is phenomenal, they really go out of their way to help you there. It’s been a real education because I was frankly ignorant before all this. And then of course politically you’re looking for that from your politicians. I hope – I would say this as someone on the centre left – that a Labour government would be better for disabled people, but we will have to judge them on their outcomes. But obviously if Keir Starmer was here, [Starmer impersonation] I just want to make it absolutely clear that the British people with a visible or, or unseen disabilities, both are important. He has that way of talking: overly verbose answers. Emma frankly the words will keep coming no matter what you ask me, [laughter] but this question frankly could have finished then, or even now [laughter]. 

But look, you know, I’ve got two sticks that I use. They’re homemade. I don’t know if I ever mentioned it but my dad was a toolmaker [laughter]. 

EMMA- That’s interesting that you mentioned your sticks because I always feel like you’ve got to a certain place in your disability ‘journey’ when you start naming your disability stuff. So, I called my white cane Harry Kane during the Euros just to kind of connect with my young boy children. Abby, have you named your chair? Do you name anything? 

ABBY- Not so much now. When I was a little bit younger I think I did it a lot more. I have my power attachment; I don’t actually know what to call it so I just call it the vroom-vroom, because it does just vroom-vroom. 

EMMA- Yeah, so you’ve not named. I haven’t been big on it but I just thought it was funny for the kids to go, ‘Mum!’ every time I said, ‘Where’s Harry?’ [laughter]. What about you, Matt, have you named anything? 

MATT- I haven’t, but some patients do name their stomas? 

EMMA- Oh really? 

MATT- And I didn’t name mine, but someone did suggest Sir Keir Stoma [laughter]. 

EMMA- That is a brilliant name for it. I guess your feelings change around it over time, you’ve just not bothered naming it, like me with my cane?

MATT- Yeah. I think when people said, ‘Oh everyone else does it’ that made me not want to do it. I thought, I’m too cool to name my new bum hole [laughter]. I’ve never named other parts of my body before, you know; there might have been a couple ahead in a line. Do you know what I think that by the time people were telling me I could have name it I already was getting over it. And I think that might have helped me earlier. 

EMMA- Handbrake turn there, Abby. Abby, what are the criteria for getting a Blue Peter badge? I have to say it really slowly because I keep wanting to say Blue Badge. 

ABBY- Yes, I have actually said Blue Badge a lot and people thought I meant Blue Peter badge as well. There was once, twice actually someone broke into my car and stole my Blue Badge, and I told people on the Blue Peter team, ‘Oh someone broke into my car, stole my Blue Badge’ and they went, ‘Really? Are they that valuable?’ [laughter] Like, ‘The Blue Peter badge, did you leave one out in your car?’ I was like, ‘No, no, no, the disability one’ you’ve got to do that. The Blue Peter badge you have to be between the ages of five and 15, and there’s a load of different Blue Peter badges that you can apply for. Or…

EMMA- I’ve lost you at the age thing though, because I can’t have one now. 

ABBY- I think though you can get one as an adult if you appear on the show. 

EMMA- Ooh! 

ABBY- So, if you appear on Blue Peter. 

EMMA- I live in Scotland. Where do you record, again? 

ABBY- Salford. 

EMMA- Two trains away, I could do it. It’s a bit of a trek. 

ABBY- You could do it, yes. 

EMMA- Well, I don’t have any badges to give out at all. If people want to ask some questions you could get the honour, the badge of honour of asking a question on Access All. I think that’s about as good as we can do. We have our roving mic again, if you want to put up your hand or make a silly noise. Because I don’t like to feel left out; I like to know where in the audience the question is coming from. 

FEMALE- Hi there. 

EMMA- Hello. 

FEMALE- You might go onto this later, but I’m just wondering what your favourite experience of Edinburgh has been perhaps over the years or maybe this trip? 

MATT- There’s something really special about this city. I doubt this Festival would have endured in any other part of Britain really. So, coming here for the month is just so much fun. When I think of some of the food I’ve had, [laughter] the pie maker that just makes lasagne pies and spaghetti pies. I mean, even the Greggs here sell macaroni cheese pie. It’s incredible, just the food and drink you’ve got in this city, and stuff opens late. I climbed Arthur’s Seat once and that was really cool, seeing the city from that perspective. So, I’ll say either that, either the view over the city or the wonderful food that you sell. 

EMMA- Right okay. Well, listen, because I thought that you had named your stoma, Keir Stoma, I’ve written you a little script. We’ve written you a little script, here’s one that was made earlier. 

MATT- Lovely. 

EMMA- To do our out show, to be the last bit, because we’ve actually run out of time. Have a look at it first in case you don’t like it, and you can just, the basics are there, just tell people to get in touch and subscribe. 

MATT- Well, you know what, I shouldn’t have done Keir Stoma already. I feel like I should pack as many…

EMMA- Okay. 

MATT- Shall I do it as Boris Johnson? 

EMMA- Yeah, okay. So, Matt could you do the outro as Boris Johnson? 

MATT- [Johnson impersonation] well, look, firstly, I want to say what a great, great, yes, honour it has been to be here at the, um, you know, whatever it’s called [laughter], the wonderful, uh, access, getting access everywhere, you know, I think it’s something like that. It’s been a total dream of mine and a long-term, uh, uh, ambition to be here at the Access All live show at the Edinburgh Festival. Thanks to my guests, uh, AbyY Cook and Matt Forde. Uh, and of course the Crasharoonie Snoozefest dullard Sir Keir Stoma, terrible Prime Minister, the worst Prime Minister we’ve had for, for at least three Prime Ministers [laughter]. But look, don’t forget to post about this on your, yeah, your social media using @³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖAccessAll, those lefties at the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ by the way, the libertarian, Liberal wokerati. I see them all here today before me, the tofu chomping wokerati of Holyrood. Anyway, I…

EMMA- Boris, I’ll have to stop you there. 

MATT- Thank you so much [cheers and applause]. 

EMMA- We’ve run out of time. Apologies. Matt Forde and Abby Cook, woo-hoo. Amazing.  [APPLAUSE, THEME MUSIC]

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