Main content

β€˜I was desperate’: The ads for unlicensed ADHD meds getting banned

The move to ban adverts for unlicensed ADHD meds and bestselling author, Jack Jordan

As the global shortage of ADHD medication continues, some people have told us they’re turning to unlicensed products being advertised to them online, in desperation.

Amy Barbour tells us she felt she had no option but to spend money on products which didn’t work. While, Nicky Baker from the Advertising Standards Authority explains why the organisation has banned several adverts and how AI is helping them to crack down on companies making false claims.

Consultant psychiatrist, Professor Marios Adamou gives some advice on what you should do if your medication is running low. Remember, always speak with your GP when making decisions around your ADHD medication.

Plus, bestselling author Jack Jordan joins us. He’s best known for his psychological thrillers full of twists and turns – but it was agoraphobia that got him writing his first book at the age of 17. Now aged 31, Jack’s just published his 8th novel – Redemption – which helped him accept his diagnosis of PTSD.

He also gives some tips for you budding writers out there.

Presented by Paul Carter and Emma Tracey
Producers: Alex Collins and Beth Rose
Sound production: Ben Andrews

Editors: Beth Rose and Ben Mundy

We love to hear your reactions to the stories we cover and we’re always looking for new ones to dive into. You can reach the team by emailing accessall@bbc.co.uk or finding @bbcaccessall on X and Instagram

Release date:

Available now

27 minutes

Transcript

Μύ

23rd July 2024

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 114

Presented by Paul Carter

Μύ

Μύ

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Hello, I’m Paul Carter and this is Access All. For those that don’t know me, I’m a technology journalist here at the ³ΙΘΛΏμΚΦ. You can frequently see me on the programme Click.

SIRI-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Hey Paul, it’s Siri, your favourite AI assistant. I’ve got a few questions for you.

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Okay. Hey Siri, what have you got for me?

SIRI-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Why have you switched to Access All?

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ That’s a very good question. So, Emma, who usually hosts this programme, is taking a very well-earned break, so for the next two weeks unfortunately Siri you’re going to have to listen to me instead.

SIRI-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Happy holidays, Emma. Next question is: what is your favourite bit of accessible technology?

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Excellent question. So, I was born without any arms and legs, so selfishly I have an interest in prosthetics. And I’d say my favourite thing that I’ve seen recently, I was lucky enough to go to San Francisco and test out a mind-controlled bionic arm. You operate the controls for it, but instead of actually wearing the arm you’re operating it on a screen. So, you can do all of the hand movements, the wrist movements, the elbow movements, everything like that; things which are obviously completely alien movements to me. To be able to do that on a real arm was quite mind-bending.

SIRI-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Final question: what’s on this episode?

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Well, I’m very glad you asked. We’ve got some great stuff for you this week. We have a fascinating conversation about ADHD medication, and an interview with the bestselling thriller writer, Jack Jordan.

SIRI-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Let’s get on with the show.

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Indeed, let’s do it.

MUSIC-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Theme music.

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Hello, I’m Paul Carter and this is Access All, the ³ΙΘΛΏμΚΦ podcast all about disability and mental health. If this is your first time listening to us hit subscribe, tell your pals all about us and get in touch. We’re @³ΙΘΛΏμΚΦAccessAll on socials, our email address is accessall@bbc.co.uk, and you can also send us some voice notes on WhatsApp, we’re 0330 123 9480. Also stay tuned until the end of the show when we’ve got some exciting news to reveal. Ooh. Anyway that’s enough of me jabbering on; let’s get going.

ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Getting the right drugs to manage ADHD can be difficult, especially when there is a global shortage of medication. Some Access All listeners have told us they’ve been so desperate when their prescriptions cannot be fulfilled they’ve turned to unregulated products advertised online. In the last few weeks the UK’s Advertising Standards Authority has banned a number of adverts claiming to cure ADHD and autism, which have left people hundreds of pounds out of pocket. Joining me now is Nicky Baker from the Advertising Standards Authority, and Professor Marios Adamou, consultant psychiatrist based in Southwest Yorkshire. Hello to you both.

NICKY-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Hello.

MARIOS-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Hello.

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ We’ll come to you both shortly. I’ve also got Amy Barber on the line. Hello Amy.

AMY-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Hello.

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Now, you bought an unlicensed product online for your ADHD. Can you tell me what it was that led you to do that?

AMY-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Before I was diagnosed with ADHD I always felt like there was something wrong with me. And then when I was diagnosed and medicated it completely changed my life and I finally felt like I wasn’t just someone who was defective. And then when I then couldn’t access medication, and I’d been stable on it for six months, it was the best six months of my life, it suddenly just was gone and I had no way to access it. I’d been given different replacement drugs but none of them worked the same. I needed something and I was completely desperate.

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Was this the point that you then went online to try and source an alternative?

AMY-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ After the methylphenidate hadn’t worked I went on and tried to source an alternative, and I used that alternative for about a month and a half. And then I ended up contacting my prescriber again because it didn’t work. I was just so frustrated. And I felt a bit embarrassed as well because it wouldn’t be the first time, and it probably won’t be the last, where I’ve invested in something because I’ve just been desperate to try and be normal and be like a successful person, and I really was not in a good place.

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ I think people can relate to that. But how did you go about choosing the alternative that you went for? What kind of research did you do?

AMY-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ So, I looked at reviews and things from other people who have tried it who also have ADHD and claimed that it had been like a wonder drug for them. I looked at what was actually in it, which essentially was just like multivitamins and a couple of other things that are supposed to be good supplements for ADHD. So, I was like, I might as well just give it a shot.

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ How much did you pay for it?

AMY-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ I paid Β£60.

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ That’s not a small sum of money, is it?

AMY-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ No, definitely not.

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ And did it work? I guess that’s the big question.

AMY-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ No, no difference whatsoever.

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ And how did you feel after you’d spent Β£60 on this supplement that ultimately didn’t do anything for you?

AMY-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ I felt disheartened, and at the time I felt a lot worse because I then didn’t have my medication to stop me from having a big emotional reaction to this. And it felt like another instance in which ADHD had ruined my life and that I’d tried to fix it yet again and it just hadn’t worked and I was back at square one, and I was down money. I felt like I was always trying to find a solution and nothing ever really worked until I’d been on medication.

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Nicky, you’re from the ASA which has banned these products being advertised. Does Amy’s story sound familiar to you?

NICKY-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ It really does, and this is why it’s part of the ASA’s stated commitment to protect vulnerable audiences and people like Amy. And so indeed over the past few weeks we’ve banned a number of online ads, including Facebook ads, for food supplements. And most recently we’ve banned ads for a supplement which made claims to be able to treat or even β€œcure” development language disorder, autism and ADHD. And this particular food supplement was made by a company called Spectrum Awakening, and their advertising depicted a very young boy who apparently had very limited speech, but within a week of taking the Spectrum Awakening food supplement he was suddenly speaking in full sentences. And so we considered that the depiction of a child with developmental language disorder, or DLD, and the crediting of that supplement with the sudden improvement in speech of that child was likely to be interpreted by the average consumer as a claim to treat or cure that condition. We are very much aware that autism and ADHD are not diseases or conditions which can be cured, or developmental disorders. But to see some advertisers claiming to treat or cure those disorders is a really serious concern for us.

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Have you any idea of the scale of this problem? You can’t monitor every advert that’s generated online. How does the ASA go about keeping across all of this stuff?

NICKY-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ These recent rulings form part of a much wider piece of proactive project work that we’ve been undertaking at the ASA in which we’re harnessing the power of artificial intelligence and employing cutting-edge technology, we call it our active ad monitoring system, to detect ads at huge scale. And we’re talking millions of ads per month. And then a subset of those ads are then flagged as being relevant for review by human specialists. So, it’s not all totally automated, there’s always human oversight, but it does make our work much more efficient and effective. And in terms of the problem and the scale of the problem of these types of ads our proactive monitoring work showed that there was enough of a problem to warrant some regulatory intervention from the ASA.

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Thanks Nicky. I will come back to you in just a second. But as you mentioned, Spectrum Awakening is one of the companies which had their advertising banned by the ASA. It is a different company to the one Amy used. Spectrum Awakening advertised a product on Facebook called Power & Focus, which claimed it was a, quote, natural, nutritional supplement for autism and ADHD. We reached out to Spectrum Awakening and received a statement from Dr Jared Skowron who runs the company. He told us his product shouldn’t have been advertised as helping ADHD, but he does claim it cures autism. Now, Dr Skowron told us:

ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ β€˜The actions of the ASA, while having the right intentions to protect UK citizens from misleading information, has not been sufficient enough to thoroughly investigate autism science.’

ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ So, Nicky, you heard the statement there, how would the ASA respond to accusations of it not leaning into the science when making its decisions?

NICKY-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ It sounds to me like a rather cynical copout on the part of Spectrum Awakening. And we’ve also in the past in the course of our work spoken to the National Autistic Society who’ve told us that often people feel that being autistic is a fundamental aspect of their identity. And actually anyone claiming to β€œcure” something that is arguably incurable and something that’s part of the fibre and fabric of an individual’s personality really needs to stop.

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Thanks ever so much, Nicky. Nicky Baker there from the Advertising Standards Authority. We also received this voice note from listener, Emma, who has chosen natural remedies rather than conventional medicines to treat her ADHD:

EMMA-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ So, I’ve decided to kind of use myself as a bit of a guinea pig, human guinea pig to try out alternative ways to manage ADHD. So far I’ve found the Lion’s Mane has been really helping me. I’ve done lots of research online, just by reading, like, a lot about different ways to manage it, and have found that Lion’s Mane comes up quite highly.

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Lion’s Mane is a form of mushroom. Listening across all of this is clinical psychiatrist Professor Marios Adamou. Professor, thank you for waiting. How are you feeling after hearing the lengths people are going to to manage their condition?

MARIOS-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ There is licensed treatments; Amy has benefited from them. And she deserves to maintain that benefit. If this medication is not available people will try anything out of, well, desperation I would say. And this is not only common in ADHD, it’s found in many other conditions. And there are all sorts of remedies and promises.

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ ADHD UK has told us that the shortage of medication, as you were alluding to there, is driving people to seek out alternative treatments. I mean, is that something that you’re seeing with your patients that’s happening a lot due to the supply issue?

MARIOS-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ I would expect that if people find something that they believe helps then they’ll try. I think the perspective of the advertising agency is to protect consumers. I would on this occasion comment that their guidance which is also protecting patients as well as consumers.

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ And we heard from Emma just now who mentioned Lion’s Mane, which is a herbal remedy. There’s a lot of chat online about it. Is there actually any basis for it being able to help with ADHD?

MARIOS-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ People have this idea that because they’re herbal remedies then they are safe. But we don’t know that because we haven’t studied it. So, I couldn’t come out and say that there is no herbal remedy in the whole world that wouldn’t be helpful in ADHD, but I can say that there haven’t been many, or any as far as I remember, herbal remedies who went through the robust scientific methodology in assessing if they would work. So, as a professional I cannot recommend any of them. But if people want to have a try with their hard-earned money and feel it works then that’s up to them.

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ But obviously people are desperate and they’re turning to these medications because of the shortage that we’re seeing. What advice would you give to someone who’s struggling to find the drugs they’ve been prescribed to manage their ADHD?

MARIOS-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ The main point is conversations with their prescriber. We have a guidance around several options and substitutions that are appropriate for people. And in fairness for most of the people that we see they are successful. Also for some we say maybe they can have some medication breaks so they can save up the right dose and use it when they need it. Also we advise on occasions lowering the dose.

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Amy, I just want to come back to you. I mean, you’ve heard all of that advice, does any of that ring true to you? Is that reflected in your experiences?

AMY-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ I think some of it is, maybe not all, because if you’re still in that stage where you’ve had, like, a taste of something good but you’re not yet in a healthy routine and you don’t yet have accommodations in your life that can support you to have ADHD in an unmedicated way then that would be really difficult to just come off it for a month.

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ We also reached out to the Department of Health about this story and they told us the following:

ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ β€˜We are aware of global supply issues affecting ADHD medications, and are acting to help mitigate risks to patients while these issues are addressed. We have provided comprehensive guidance to healthcare professionals about how to manage and advise patients while there is disruption to supply, and advise any patient with concerns to speak to their clinician.’

ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ We’ve heard lots there about alternatives to helping ADHD. There’s further information and support on the ³ΙΘΛΏμΚΦ’s Action Line. And it’s always advised to speak to your GP when making decisions around your ADHD. Thanks to everyone who spoke to us about this. Thanks again to Amy, to Nicky and to Marios. Please get in touch if this story relates to something you’re going through at the moment. We’re @³ΙΘΛΏμΚΦAccessAll on socials, our email address is accessall@bbc.co.uk, and our WhatsApp is 0330 1230 9480.

ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Now, don’t worry, Emma hasn’t left you completely in the lurch. Before she signed off for her summer break she interviewed the bestselling author Jack Jordan. Enjoy:

EMMA-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ My next guest is a number one bestselling author of some seriously intense thrillers. He wrote his first book at age 17 while living with agoraphobia, and then managed to self-publish two bestselling e-books by the time he was 24. Then he went on to find a publisher and sell hundreds of thousands of books. His book in 2023, Conviction, made it into my blindy talking book library, which is surely a measure of success. And the new book, Redemption, is out now. And he’s here to tell me all about it. It is of course Jack Jordan.

JACK-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Oh thank you so much for having me. I’ve been really looking forward to this.

EMMA-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ So, go on then, go on, tell me about the new book.

JACK-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ So, Redemption, I’m known for my moral dilemmas, and with this one I wanted it to pack an emotional punch. Redemption is the story of married couple Evelyn and Tobias who go on a road trip to avenge the death of their son who was killed in a hit and run 11 years before, as the man who caused it had just been released from prison. However, it’s Evelyn who is hellbent on revenge, and her husband is desperate to stop her, to save her from herself, even if it means protecting the man who killed their son.

EMMA-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Oh, so many layers. Is this very typical of the sort of book you write?

JACK-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Yeah. So, I think with my books, in particular the last three – I’m currently writing my ninth at the moment and Redemption is my eighth – I realised that I really wanted to create a story that shows the struggles and the moral dilemmas that we have in everyday life and how the readers can relate to that. But then I inject it with steroids and make it 20 times worse [laughs].

EMMA-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ And really nightmary and scary. I don’t know if I’ve been able to sleep the last couple of days.

JACK-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Oh, well I hope you get a really good sleep soon.

EMMA-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ [Laughs]

JACK-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ I apologise if that was my fault. But I think I’ve always used my writing as a vehicle to express my emotions. People meet me and they go, β€˜Where do all these dark ideas come from?’ and I think I’ve had a bit of a challenging life and I went through some dark things, and I started writing to try and exude some of that and understand that. So, I think I always lean to the darker side of stories and the struggles we go through because I can relate to that.

EMMA-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ You’ve mentioned your life a little bit there; when in that life did you start writing books and how did that get going?

JACK-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ I mean, to start off with I think always the question I get was, β€˜You must have had an amazing education. You must have gone to university’. That wasn’t the case for me; I actually had quite a poor education.

EMMA-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ What do you mean by that?

JACK-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ I had a particularly bad time in school for being gay. And it was a bit relentless to be honest, so I decided at 14 to remove myself from the system. But doing that I then had to go to a different school, it was essentially for kids who couldn’t be in mainstream school. So, downstairs were the naughty kids who were excluded, and then upstairs were the kids who had to be there for their wellbeing. And I was up there. So, I would be picked up by a teacher in their car in the morning, driven to this place, escorted upstairs and put behind a locked door. And I would have two hours of lessons a day.

EMMA-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Why were you put behind a locked door?

JACK-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ For protection. The class I was in because we were particularly vulnerable. Also putting two different groups of kids who were there for different reasons might not have gelled well. So, it was quite a volatile place to be, so that really did affect my education. So, I refused to go there as well. So, the only lessons I could have for my last year of school was an hour a day when my mum could come home from work and be there when the teacher was there for her lunch hour to complete my GCSEs, which meant I could only do four. And I insisted six weeks before the exam that they let me do English literature, and I got an A.

EMMA-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Wow, well done!

JACK-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Thank you. I think I’ve always been a champion for what I deserve, and that resilience there was there from a very young age, and that’s definitely served me in my career going forward.

EMMA-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Yeah. Now, I did say in the introduction that you wrote your first book at 17 while living with agoraphobia. After your GCSEs how did that become part of your life?

JACK-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ I would say the first 20 years of my life were a bit of a battlefield in terms of traumas. It was a situation that I couldn’t escape, so when it came to being out of the education system and trying to find who I was and find my new life I was a bit rebellious and ran away. And so I was away for about six months, and unfortunately didn’t have the life skills to protect myself properly and things like that, and went through significant trauma. So, when I returned home I was just a shell of who I was.

EMMA-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Where did you go? What did you do for the six months?

JACK-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ I won’t go into detail, but for so long I’d been stuck and caged. And I think I saw that as a sense of freedom but probably what I shouldn’t have been doing.

EMMA-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Okay. So, you came home?

JACK-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Yes, I came home, back to safety, back to my loving single mum and my Nan who raised me. But unfortunately came home and I had a lot to process, a lot of anxiety, a lot of panic attacks. And I soon realised that the anxiety was so bad that I no longer felt safe to leave my home, and I was agoraphobic for a year.

EMMA-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ And what did that feel like?

JACK-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ It’s a bit like a prison. This time it was the limitations that my brain was given me, in a form of protection really: anxiety is there to protect us. But the things I’d gone through meant that I was hypervigilant. That meant that all my fears were extremely heightened. It’s really lonely, or not many people can relate to it. And you also can’t sleep because you’re not exerting energy, so I was an insomniac. I knew I had agoraphobia and how bad it was when I was walking down my staircase and at the same time the postman put a letter through the letterbox and I had a massive panic attack.

EMMA-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ What happened so that you could start moving, like, even to open the letterbox?

JACK-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ What saved me was my writing. I had this idea rattling around in my head, I thought right, I’m going to get this out. I had a BlackBerry, if you remember those?

EMMA-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Oh my goodness!

JACK-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Yeah [laughs]. And it was about 5 in the morning because I couldn’t sleep, and this idea would just not leave me alone, so I typed a little short story on my BlackBerry and finally went to sleep. And then the next day I thought, I’ll write a little bit more, and then the day after that, I’ll write a little bit more. And then six months later I had tricked myself into writing 100,000 word novel. And when I wrote the end I realised that this was what I was always meant to do, and it was going to get me out of this situation.

EMMA-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ A massive relief I imagine.

JACK-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Massive, and a great way to connect with the outside world when I couldn’t, so I could live vicariously through my characters. But then once I realised that this was a path I wanted to take I thought well, I’m going to have to get out and experience more of the world to be able to write about it.

EMMA-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Yeah. It’s fascinating to me though that you're writing in your house and you can’t leave your house, but the types of books that you write invite nightmares into your head and into your home, when that’s the only place you can be.

JACK-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ I really do think with, or at least myself writing in the crime and thriller genre, when you’re victims of crimes yourself you want to understand what has happened to you, why it happened to you, how you’re going to get through that. And so I think I wanted to write from the point of view of the person who’s in that to see how they get out. And I think that was a cathartic process for me. So, that’s become a lot of my inspiration, so I look inwards and I look at my own limitations or my own pain or my own fears.

EMMA-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ How have you been since? What do you do to kind of stay writing, stay going out?

JACK-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ It really was desensitising myself to the fears. So, it would be going to the door or going out into my garden. Then it would be going to pick something up from the step, even if it was just like a flyer or something, I’d go and pick that up. And then I’d walk out and just feel the sun on my skin. So, it was self-exposure really. And tremendous amounts of therapy [laughs]. I’ve got a phenomenal therapist who I still see to this day. And I think to be honest I used my career, which I’ve realised now at the age of 31, so 15 years later from when I was agoraphobic that I have been in fight or flight survival mode ever since and only really admitted to myself now. I’ve known I had it, I’ve been diagnosed with it, but I did not accept it until now that I’ve had PTSD for a very long time. I’ve done every coping mechanism you can imagine, the good, the bad and the ugly. I think honestly writing this book, Redemption, has saved my life.

EMMA-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Wow.

JACK-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ So, Redemption on the face of it is a crime thriller, so if you’re going on a beach holiday you’re going to enjoy the tension of it, the cat and mouse chase. It’s got all the aspects of a commercial thriller you’ll want. But I used it as the creator to explore my own grief, explore my own trauma, explore my own emotions with that. And I knew I was sharing a lot when I wrote it; I didn’t realise quite how much until I listened back to the audio book, and it was only then that I heard them talking back to me my trauma.

EMMA-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Gosh.

JACK-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ I’m getting shivers thinking about it. It was the most revelatory moment of my life, and I realised it helped me accept my past, it helped me accept my PTSD and it helped me to stop judging myself and stop harming myself through all of these, quote unquote, coping mechanisms. Since exploring my past through writing it’s freed me. And I think the most rewarding thing from this is the reception the book has got, because I think when you write something so personal you want to be accepted, you want people not to judge you for that. And it’s under the guise of fiction, so people don’t know that they’re effectively judging you. It’s been phenomenal, and it’s helped me have a sense of self-acceptance that I never thought I’d get.

EMMA-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Brilliant. And you talked about barriers and you’ve written about a blind character, you’ve written about a gay character, what would your advice be for writers in a nutshell, Jack, particularly writers who have some extra barriers to get through?

JACK-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Know what you deserve. You can often find when you’re from a marginalised community you have to work very hard to get in the same room. I think we have such a wealth of knowledge that we can share. We see the world differently, we experience the world differently, and I think that really lends itself to storytelling, but also allows readers to identify with a character. I think everyone deserves to feel the representations of themselves in a book.

EMMA-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Jack, I’m being told we’ve absolutely run out of time. I genuinely could have talked to you for an awful lot longer. And I’m hoping that you will come back and speak to me again.

JACK-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ I would love to.

EMMA-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Jack Jordan, thank you for joining me. And Redemption is out now.

PAUL-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Thank very much Emma for that interview with Jack. Now, it’s almost the end of the show – I know, time flies – but as promised there’s one more exciting thing to tell you. Drumroll please. Do we have drumrolls? I’m being told we do have drumrolls. [Drumroll] Access All is hosting a live show at the Edinburgh Festival Fringe, and you, yes you, can be part of the audience. Emma will be hosting guests including award-winning comedians Dan Tiernan and Matt Ford, for all sorts of fun, stories, and a bit where you get to ask the questions. The show will be at Dynamic Earth on Friday 9th August at 3pm. And if you go to the ³ΙΘΛΏμΚΦ’s Shows and Tours page you can get yourself some free tickets to come along and watch. Sounds good. Okay, that’s it. Thanks to all my guests today. I’ve had an absolute blast. It’s gone way too quickly. I’ll be back next week so I look forward to speaking to you all again then. Thanks very much. Bye.

[Trailer for Reliable Sauce]

KIRSTY-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Do you want to know what’s going on in the world but you can’t really be bothered to read the news?

JONELLE-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Want to understand what’s gone viral and what’s trending?

BOTH-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Hey, hey, hey!

KIRSTY-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Join me, Kirsty Grant.

JONELLE-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ And me, Jonelle Awomoyi on our weekly podcast, Reliable Sauce.

KIRSTY-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ We’re both journalists at ³ΙΘΛΏμΚΦ News.

JONELLE-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ And each week we’ll be breaking down the stories everyone’s obsessed with. What the hell is going on with this Stanley Cup craze?

KIRSTY-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ How often do you think about the Roman Empire?

MALE-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ There are weeks that it will come up in my brain more than once.

JONELLE-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Expect interviews with the hottest influencers and content creators.

KIRSTY-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Jordan Theresa, welcome along. Matt, joins us now. Welcome to the Reliable Sauce studio!

MATT-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Thank you for having me.

KIRSTY-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Let’s talk more about this with Catie Baser who’s in the studio with us.

CATIE-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Hi.

KIRSTY-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ And hand-picked experts to help us make sense of it all when we need them.

FEMALE-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ So, the law is there, but we really need these social media companies to act.

FEMALE-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Terms like this seem quite flippant, but of course they can be really serious.

KIRSTY-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ And we willΜύ have a little giggle too [laughter].

JONELLE-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ So, please come and join our spicy band.

KIRSTY-ΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύΜύ Listen on ³ΙΘΛΏμΚΦ Sounds now.

Μύ

Μύ

Μύ

Podcast

Get the latest episodes of the Access All podcast the moment a new episode goes live!

Podcast