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19th October 2023

bbc.co.uk/accessall

Access All – episode 75

Presented by Nikki Fox and Emma Tracey

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NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ems, did you see this headline: 11kg of suspected cocaine found in motorised wheelchair?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Was that you?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] no, but it reminds me of a documentary I made ages ago. I wanted to call it When Good Disableds Go Bad, but Radio 4 won’t have it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Somebody I interviewed did a similar thing, not that amount though. But it made me think, Ems, you know, have you ever smuggled? Because as disabled people I think it’s quite fair to say we can get away with a bit more, can’t we? I just want to say, with nothing illegal.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, yes, I have smuggled a little bit.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I didn’t expect that. I thought you were going to say no.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Only because it was such an easy win. I think a lot of security people now are more au fait and there’s more disabled people around the place and maybe they do check things a bit more. But when I was a teenager other people put things in my bag, that I didn’t know about until afterwards, I swear, going into festivals, so past the security.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No!

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because they just assumed, rightly, that the security people wouldn’t search my bag.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I have got friends and they’re not afraid to use my cubbyhole or back pouch when we’re on a night out.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Back pouch?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. I’ve got two things: the cubbyhole fits two bottles quite nicely, and the back pouch. I’m generally loaded up because I’m not checked.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The smuggling stories, when I was thinking about this earlier, are bringing up great memories for me about when I used to go out with the cool kids who used to smoke at break time at school. I didn’t smoke. But we got caught once and they all just threw all of their cigarettes into the pocket of my massive laptop case…

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No!

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý …that at 15 years old I had to carry round on my shoulder because I was blind and didn’t use pen and paper, so that’s why I’ve got sore shoulders now.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, Ems.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, they threw all their fags in it. And we went into the principal’s office and we got in trouble. And I was so happy that we got in trouble because I’d never been in trouble before in the principal’s office, because I was at blindy school until I was 15 and then I went to mainstream. And it was like the best day of my life at the time.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, well every cloud.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I felt like a normal person.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Theme music.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Welcome, welcome. It’s Access All, the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ’s disability and mental health podcast. But don’t worry if you’re not disabled, we won’t discriminate. I’m Nikki Fox and I’m in our London studios.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And I’m Emma Tracey and I’m in Edinburgh.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, Emma, if I were to listen until the end of this podcast what will I know more about? Hit me.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How rooms get fizzy when disabled people are in them together.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I have no idea what that means but yes, carry on.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The difference between a hate crime and a hate incident.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And how we touched on a really sore point the other week when we talked about how disabled people, wheelchair users in particular, struggle to weigh themselves because there aren’t enough weighing scales available and they’re shockingly expensive.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you, Emma Tracey. Now, please do tell your friends to listen to Access All. You can follow us on X, formerly known as Twitter, and yell Alexa, ask the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ for Access All, innit, to hear our latest podcast.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Will, it work if you say innit?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, don’t say innit [laughs]. Disability hate crime is a topic we return to regularly because many disabled people have experienced it at some point in their lives. And it’s National Hate Crime Awareness Week, so a good time to come back to this difficult subject. Recent government figures show that reporting disability hate crime to police has gone down slightly. But the charities we’ve spoken to say that disability hate crime hasn’t decreased at all. Emma, what do the figures tell us? You’ve been having a look.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, the number of all hate crimes in England and Wales, so that’s crimes motivated by race, religion, sexual orientation etc, they’ve gone down by 5% this year to just under 150,000. If we drill down into disability hate crimes they’ve gone down by 1% to almost 14,000. That’s a small decrease, but the year before there was a big increase and it was rising for a number of years before that. So, it is quite high at the minute, and the idea that incidents have fallen in real life does not ring true for everybody.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, to find out what is going on we are joined by the wonderfully named Ali Gunn, who is with us now. Now, Ali is head of policy at the charity United Response which campaigns against disability hate crime. Hello Ali.

ALI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi, lovely to be back.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And we’ve also got Mark Brooks with us. Now, Mark is from social care provider Dimensions. Now, Mark has a learning disability. He teaches individuals how to report disability hate crime, which is so important, and the police how to support people. We’re going to hear more about that work a bit later, but first let me say hello to Mark. Hello Mark.

MARK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi, hello.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s lovely to have you on, Mark. Let’s all just be really clear about what we’re talking about to start off. Disability hate crimes are officially defined by the Crown Prosecution Service as any incident or crime which is perceived by the victim or any other person to be motivated by a hostility or prejudice based on a person’s disability or perceived disability. Now, keep that in your head as we continue. I want to start with you, Mark, if that’s okay, because you work in this area but you’ve also had personal experience of disability hate crime itself, haven’t you?

MARK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I have.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you mind telling me what happened?

MARK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. So, a few years back just before the pandemic I was walking home and it was a dark night. The next thing I heard is a car and some laughing coming from the car. It was dark so I couldn’t see who it was. And they were shouting, calling me names like idiot, stupid. And that went on for a while. And then the next thing I heard was something hit my jacket. And then they revved off. And when I got in the house I found out that I had an egg chucked at me. I didn’t report it number one, because I couldn’t describe them, and it was dark, and I knew nothing would be done just because I couldn’t tell them what they looked like, and there were no cameras around.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Right, so you kind of weighed it up and you thought I’m not going to do it.

MARK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý If it happened again would you?

MARK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A few years later though as well we were doing some training down in Surrey for manned police officers to train them to know how to talk to people and how to approach them. And they encouraged me to actually report it. So, one of the officers sat aside with me and made a report for me, and then we sent it to Romford police station, so I did actually report it but it did take me a while before I decided to report it, because they said it was still a hate crime, what happened to me was a hate crime. So, I encourage, every time I speak to people, to report it, even though it happens to them just once.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. The number of disability hate crimes reported to the police has gone down. I just wondered why you think that is?

ALI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, it’s hard to say really. It’s gone down by 1%, so whilst we are worried about the fact that it’s gone down – and you might wonder why I’m saying that, because hate crimes going down you would think that it’s a positive – but actually we know that disability hate crime is an under-reported crime, and that police sources have done a lot of work to ensure that their reporting procedures are much better. And police sources have told us that they actually want to see higher reports of disability hate crime because that shows that there’s confidence in reporting. So, whilst I can’t say what this means, I do know that the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ Office have suggested that the drop in hate crime numbers might be linked to the new interim guidance that was published last year. The guidance was by the College of Policing on the recording of non-crime hate incidents. And that instructed officers to consider whether there was a genuine hostility in the incident, or whether it could be considered freedom of speech or thought.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Wowzers. This is such a complex area, you can’t really trust the numbers, and now you’ve just introduced something that actually I’m not familiar with, having covered this story a lot: a non-crime hate incident.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, so that’s things like bullying and maybe receiving letters that aren’t very nice. And the police say that they need to be recorded, and the guidance is around how they’re recorded. But isn’t it, Ali, that people are a bit worried that that might drip down to disability hate crime recording as well and change how people think about that too?

ALI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, absolutely. We know that disability hate crime is already an under-reported crime, and so actually any sort of guidance that would suggest that maybe it hasn’t been taken seriously might cause people to question, like Mark said earlier of his own experience, actually has there been a crime, should I report it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because a lot of people struggle to know what is a hate crime and what isn’t, don’t they, for various reasons?

ALI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Absolutely. A disability hate crime is any criminal offence which is perceived to be motivated by hostility. A disability hate incident is any incident that is based on someone because of that prejudice towards of them because of their particular characteristic. But not all hate incidents will amount to a criminal offence. So, it would mean that no law is broken. But we would say they’re still really important because of the negative effect that it can have on the person who’s targeted.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But how can you tell the difference? That sounds like it’s made a little bit more murky.

ALI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think it has. And actually, as Mark’s described, it is murky anyway. And what victims need is actually clarity rather than this confusion. Because particularly if you’ve been a victim of a crime or a hate incident what you need is support in that moment, rather than sort of worrying who should I go and talk to about this. So, one of our calls as part of our campaigning work is to have a disability liaison officer in every police force who is working within the community to support people who have been a victim of either a hate crime or a hate incident.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Mark, the people you work for at Dimensions have run a survey about attitudes towards disabled people and what might be causing some of these hate crimes. And the survey found that 6% of people reported that they had physically hurt someone because of their learning disability or autism. And that goes up a bit higher in the survey results for younger people. That left us all flabbergasted on the team.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It’s terrible.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Are you surprised by that, Mark?

MARK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, actually no I wasn’t because since the pandemic, the pandemic people still got attacked and called names because we weren’t wearing a mask and people didn’t understand that. So, for me nothing has really changed. I think it’s also gone off the government’s radar quite a bit.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do these figures surprise you, Ali? I mean, I’m always wary with these kinds of figures because I’m thinking how many people answered, who are these people, how did it all work. But are you surprised?

ALI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, we were really surprised, and it is shocking. It’s worrying, isn’t it, because you hope we’ve had progress within society around inclusion, but those statistics show that there’s still so much work to do around stigmatisation. We also polled the general public as part of our hate crime campaign this year and what we found was that 66% of the public think that they should be a witness if they’ve seen a disability hate crime take place. So, whilst statistics from Dimensions are shocking and really worrying, we’re sort of hopeful that there are allies out there that want to buck that trend that Dimensions have seen.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What do you think needs to happen to change this?

ALI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, I’ve obviously talked about us having a disability liaison in every police force. And we’re calling for the government to renew its hate crime strategy, which sadly they’ve said they’re not going to do. And we want this strategy to particularly focus on closing that justice gap and ensuring that more victims get access to the justice they want. But I think there’s something for all of us to take note of, for us all to be better allies and to maybe support people in our local communities by recognising the value that everyone brings, bucking that trend that Dimensions have seen.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And Mark, what do you think needs to happen to improve this situation?

MARK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, two quick things: last year we launched an e-learning for frontline police where they can go away and look at the training themselves. Three or four police stations have already taken that up across the country. But also this week with Hate Crime Awareneess Week we’ve launched No Time to Hate Crime which we hope to get the public involved in.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Thank you so much. And I know there’s some online help on the Dimensions website, is that right, Mark?

MARK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Honestly, it’s been a real pleasure chatting to you both. Mark, I haven’t spoken to you before but you are brilliant. Keep up this incredible work you’re doing.

MARK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Can I just say, I got my doctorship in law from Kent University because of that. And then in 2019 I got an MBE from the Queen for all the work I’ve been doing.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Mark, you never told me that in our prep calls!

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You kept that quiet!

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You dark horse, you.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. I’d be like that’d be on my forehead.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

MARK-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý It usually is.

MUSIC-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Access All.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hey Ems, we were supposed to be doing this programme from National Star College, weren’t we, this week?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We were. Gloucestershire we were going to.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We were. That has been postponed for now, but we are going to be there at some point in the future speaking to the students of the college. I’ve been there a couple of times, it’s a great place. Have you ever been there?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I have never been there.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, you’ll love it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I am really excited.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, can’t wait for that. And here’s something we’ve spoken about a number of times on the pod before. This is York Council has actually overturned the ban on Blue Badge holders in the city centre. So, for a period of time if you had a Blue Badge and you needed to park in the city centre, which a lot of people with Blue Badges do for convenience and just to be able to, I don’t know, shop, well they weren’t allowed. But there was a huge outcry about this, wasn’t there, Ems?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý There was.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And it has been reversed. So, the ban on all cars it was originally put in place by the Lib Dem and Green council in 2021, and bollards were put up to prevent terrorist attacks on the many narrow cobbled streets, with no provision made for Blue Badge holders. But now the new Labour council has overturned it. Ems, I think a lot of people are going to be very relieved about this, aren’t they?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They are. There was a big contingent of people working behind the scenes to get this to happen and campaigning like I’ve not seen in a long time, disability activism.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And also Diane Roworth, who is part of Reverse the Ban in York, she’s actually sent us a little clip:

DIANE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’ve been campaigning to overturn the ban on Blue Badge holders’ access to York city centre since it was imposed over three years ago. Last week the new administration in York voted unanimously to reverse the ban and restore access, and we’re absolutely delighted they’ve done it. So, the antiterror bollards will stay in place, but between now and January 2024 the legal process will proceed, and consultation with all stakeholders will work out how disabled people will be welcomed back into York city centre. But we are so excited that we’re now well on the way. It will be the start of new freedoms for Blue Badge holders to shop, to eat out, to use the cinema, just be part of the life and economy of York city centre the way we always used to be.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, they’re not going to be able to go back straightaway then, judging by what Diane was saying?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, they have to figure out what to do about these bollards, because the same issue is still there, they felt they needed to put terrorism bollards in. And actually the leader of the Lib Dems from York Council who actually put the ban in place he defended the original decision and he said, ‘This was never a policy choice. It shouldn’t have been made a political football; and it was and remains a gravely serious issue’.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And Labour deputy leader Pete Kilbane responded saying, ‘It was sad the Liberal Democrats still supported the exclusion of Blue Badge holders’. So, there you go, January 2024 is when Blue Badge holders will be able to go back into the city centre in their vehicles. Ìý

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, hopefully. But what are they going to do about the bollards?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I mean, people have been talking about bollards that go down into the ground. I’ve seen those before, and they pop up at certain times.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve seen those, yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And then other people have been talking about actually the bollards being manned, so manpower; that’s really expensive to put them in and take them out. I imagine they’re not expecting to stand by each bollard all the time.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No!

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That sounds a bit much. But yeah, the solutions I think there’s going to be some chat about how to figure that out. I think each Blue Badge holder maybe will need a little remote control, a little fob that they can control the bollards.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] no, I’d accidentally park over the bollard, I’d press the button and shoot myself up in the car [laughs] because I’m atrocious.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Really?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Moving on.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Anyway, moving on to something completely different. We’ve had a lot of feedback from you guys about a story that we ran the other week about struggles that disabled people, wheelchair users in particular, have when trying to get themselves weighed.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I do want to say here, Emma, because we were both a little bit unsure about covering this just because, you know, the topic of weighing ourselves is all a bit like 1996 now, isn’t it? It’s uncomfortable and I don’t really like talking about it. But we did it because it is important. Carry on, Emma Tracey.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah we did. And some people do want to keep an eye on their weight, but weighing scales are too expensive and they’re not in places that you would think they would be. So, they’re not necessarily in all medical centres where you would think that you would have weighing scales that you could actually use. Anyway, Helen Stone emailed us with a solution. She was saying that care homes, older people’s residential care they usually have weighing scales because their weights need to be monitored for various reasons, diet, illness etc. And careÌý homes are often keen to engage with the communities around them. Maybe they would be happy for people to come in and weigh themselves on their accessible scales. So, that’s one solution, isn’t it?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah. We also had Amina got in contact with us, she tweeted actually. She tweeted us with some places that should have scales. She said hospital or wheelchair service, or at the vets using the dog scales.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I like that. I mean, needs must, do you know what I mean?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Let’s get on the dog scales.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I mean, when you’re bringing Buddy to the vet, if you want to be weighed, which there’s no reason why you would…

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I told you, he doesn’t get in the car.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Huh?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý He doesn’t get in the car.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý He doesn’t get in the car?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We’d have to take him for a walk at night when it’s pitch black.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, how do you get him to the vet then? Do you walk him at night?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý We have no idea. Touch wood we’ve not needed to yet.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh Buddy.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, I know, honestly.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do vets do home visits?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, we know that they do because we’ve had to have a little look into this, yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You could actually do with the scales that would work for you, your sister and your dog.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh my goodness, yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Nick got in contact and he said, ‘It ain’t rocket science the whole weighing thing’. Thanks Nick.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hey Nick, yeah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý ‘It’s just like weighing a dog: weigh both together and then weigh the chair and weigh yourself, and figure out the difference’.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, Nick, I’m all for like thinking outside the box, but one, how do I get the scooter on the scales? Then I’d have to transfer from the scooter to a chair onto the scales, and then I have to lift my legs up. I mean, look Nick, I’m on board to a degree.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’ve got an idea.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh go on. I dread to think.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You and Buddy at nighttime go to the care home, right. You and Buddy get on the chair together. You hold Buddy in your arms.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh yeah, that’s going to happen. Have you seen the size of him?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý He’s a tank.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, okay. Put Buddy in your scooter, put the scooter on the scales and then take away the weight of the scooter and then you’ve got Buddy’s weight and yours.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And then I can spend some time with the residents as well.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Love it, sold. We’ve had such a big response to this we’re going to do a bit more on it so watch this space.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý If you want to get in contact with us you can do it in all the usual ways: accessall@bbc.co.uk is our email address. Or you can find us on X @³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖAccessAll.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Right, we’ve got a right goodie now, haven’t we Ems, because a new series of Phoenix Rise has come to ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ iPlayer. It’s on the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ iPlayer, and it’s continuing the story of a group of teens at a West Midlands school who are taking their first steps back into mainstream education after having been excluded. We used to say expelled back in the day, but I am about 100 years old.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý The gang is surprised by a new member, Daisy, who’s signing whilst talking during this clip of the show:

[Clip]

DAISY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I love what you’ve done with the place. It’s very graveyard chic. I’m Daisy, in case you’re wondering.

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Huh?

DAISY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sorry, are you deaf too?

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Say what?

DAISY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Cut your skull open.

FEMALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

DAISY-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Keep up. Then they put a magnet in, stitched it back up and now…

MALE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Sick. So, you're basically Robocop?

ELOISE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah basically.

[End of clip]

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, as you just heard, Daisy is deaf and she is proper sassy. She’s a sass pants, that’s how I’d describe her. And it’s Eloise Pennycott the actress who plays her. She’s also deaf. And she joins us now. Hello, Eloise?

ELOISE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hi, how are you?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Honestly, it’s a pleasure to meet you. You really are very sassy. And I think we established that right from the first scene.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Just to say we’ve got a BSL interpreter Eloise has with her called Ryan. We won’t get you to say hello, Ryan, but welcome to you as well.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes, welcome Ryan. Eloise, why don’t you start off by telling people who haven’t seen Phoenix Rise yet all about your character Daisy?

ELOISE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Okay, so Daisy is a cow, she’s just completely awful.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs]

ELOISE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She’s really, really wonderful because she doesn’t necessarily care about what anyone else thinks, in the most lovely way. I think she’s so sure of herself that she will literally just walk into this really cute little friendship group. They’ve got their really safe space. And I just walk in, take over it, and it’s absolutely wonderful. And so it is so great because you kind of see her forge these relationships with the existing characters through fire. Like, she will put them through their paces straight off the bat. And so it’s been a lot of fun to play her.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That is such a good explanation. Because you’re back at the school, aren’t you, after having been excluded, as we said at the beginning. Question on the script – now, I didn’t write this one but I kind of like it: surely deaf people are too good to get excluded, Daisy?

ELOISE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] well, I think Daisy challenges that quite a lot! And I mean, she’s from a mental health unit specifically so that’s kind of where she got excluded to. We don’t necessarily know the circumstances that led up to that. But even then it’s the thing of like deaf can still be awful; mentally ill can still be awful to people. And it’s in a nice way, it’s in a fun way, so it’s removing the limitations I think is quite nice.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Eloise, you come across as having a lot of the same confidence as Daisy. But you had a bit of a journey to get there, didn’t you, since being diagnosed at 11. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

ELOISE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý My goodness, yes. So, as you said, I was diagnosed at age 11, which was a complete and utter surprise. I only had mild hearing loss at the time, and no one in my family had picked up on it, including me. It was just a routine test where we came back out and she said, ‘Oh so yeah, you know about the mild deafness?’ and it was like no. So, it was a huge shock to kind of get used to to start with. And then I lost it gradually over the course of the next two years. By the time I was 13 I had no hearing. Then I got a cochlear implant put in around the time I turned 14. So, it was kind of like those four years I think, which were really formative in teenage years, I sort of lost on dealing with this trauma of losing all my hearing.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Then by the time I hit 15 I had my cochlear implants but I was starting to get to the point where actually no, okay, if I’m going to be deaf for the rest of my life I might as well actively be deaf. So, that was really the turning point of me going okay no, I’d better get to grips with it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Did you kind of infiltrate yourself into a deaf community, online or offline? You’re signing or being signed to, you’ve obviously jumped on that as well. What did you do?

ELOISE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think a big part of it was Deafinitely youth theatre, which is probably part of the reason why I’m acting now, just because that was the first place that I saw where, I had started learning a little bit BSL from someone who worked at my school at the time and so I was picking up little bits of it, and then that was the first place where I felt confident to be like okay, I’m going to try and use this. And so that was really the first place I felt I could be deaf. And then alongside that I was also working with the National Deaf Children’s Society on their youth advisory board. That was life changing because I was doing loads of campaigning and stuff like that with them. They were the first people who introduced me to different forms of access as well, whether it was interpreters or speech to text and all of that. It was meeting other deaf people through that I could start to form a picture of who I might want to be myself.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s very interesting.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s amazing.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, for you embracing it, meeting others similar, that really worked for you. Because I know it can go one way or the other sometimes, especially when you acquire something later in life. Some people don’t want anything to do with any form of community, do they? But for you it helped.

ELOISE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I think I kind of had no other option because I felt so isolated at the time, especially because my town is quite small and I was the only deaf person in my primary school when I left that and in my secondary school when I got there. And so it was very, very strange. But I think it was the fact as well that I met so many other deaf young people that was really instrumental to me kind of accepting it, because I think young people at the moment are so much more accepting and open and willing to talk that it meant I could start to relate to people a little bit more.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Because I think we have to remind ourselves that you are a young person; you’re only 18, maybe 19?

ELOISE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Eighteen, that’s right.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Wow.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I wish I was like you at 18. I was a mess.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I know, oh my gosh, absolutely. So, you find yourself a deaf person, but do you see deaf people differently and disabled people differently now that you’re in that side of things?

ELOISE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý A hundred per cent yeah. I mean, it kind of shocked me to think of my perspective before I became disabled people myself. Because that was the hardest thing I think, with the image of disability that I had as a child, I think because of lack of representation in the media and stuff like that, it was like when they first told me I was deaf I was like, well I can’t be because my vision, I hate it, but my vision at the time was that deaf or disabled people were either stupid or old. And it’s awful, I hate both those words to be attributed to either of those communities, but it was the only thing that I knew. And that was why it was so hard for such a long time. And so the second that I started seeing all of these really amazing deaf and disabled people in their own careers or whatever that was the first time that it was like, wow, okay, this is really, really cool.Ìý Ìý

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

ELOISE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And then now I just think being in disabled culture, being in a disabled room like this is so, it feels like fizzy, because it’s…

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Ah.

ELOISE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, do you know what I mean?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I love that!

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, I like that fizzy. I feel a bit fizzy listening to your power and your knowledge. But also I feel really sad that seven or eight years ago that was how people still thought of disability and still think of it to some extent now.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, but doesn’t that show you the power of role models and representation and how important that is?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yes.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And you’re now doing that yourself. You’re on the telly!

ELOISE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah [laughs].

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She’s on the telly. You’re an amazing actor. You’re very talented. You’re doing your thing and you’re deaf. Do you see yourself as a role model?

ELOISE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Kind of. It’s not really something that I can fathom completely the idea of other people watching it. I hate the idea of people knowing my face or knowing my name or knowing what I say – which is a ridiculous career to go into if I don’t like that. But really I’m just trying to be like a role model for my younger self, because that was what I so desperately needed when I was going through the first couple of years. And so everything I’m doing I’m doing for baby teenager Eloise, because I needed that so much. If anyone else can watch it and learn from Daisy and be inspired by her or whatever that’s great, but I can’t imagine myself being that for them; I can only imagine it for me.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý How did you get into acting?

ELOISE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Do you know what, it was complete and utter chance, and boredom. Lockdown hit, and so I went and approached the first agent that was recommended with me, got signed with them and then started doing auditions with them, and then started getting jobs. And it was only because I was bored really. I had a middling interest in the performing arts and the idea of doing theatre and that, but I had just been trundling along. So, I feel like a bit of an imposter sometimes.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, don’t.

ELOISE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý But I figured if I’m there then I might as well be.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, 100% own it, own it. Don’t do what I’ve done for many years. Just don’t. It’s a waste of time.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What do you want to do next, Eloise? What would be your dream career highlight or goal or vision?

ELOISE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý My god, there’s so many. I’ve got so many things that I want to do and I’m going to do. I’ll tell you what, I don’t know how it’s going to work yet but I know that it will, I want to be the first deaf BSL using performing to play a regularly hearing role like in West End musical theatre. That hasn’t yet happened, and I think it would be so beautiful to have just sign language, voice off, playing like, I don’t know, someone in Les Mis or something like that. That’s never happened.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, hang on, explain that to me. So, you’d just play like say Hamlet – I couldn’t think of anything; that’s the best I’ve got.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Les Misérables, like a musical.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh okay, a musical yeah. This is my lack of knowledge for theatre [laughs]. Okay, so Les Misérables, you play a main role, someone who isn’t deaf?

ELOISE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Non-speaking and just signing did you say?

ELOISE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Potentially, yes. Because we’ve had it theatre with musical theatre. Now that we’ve moved into colour blind casting, people used to be like how’s that going to work, that’s not going to be authentic to the character – that changed.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

ELOISE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I reckon it’s maybe five, ten years out. But I want to be the first to be signing the music instead of singing it.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý So, just with no singing to hold hearing people’s hands?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Just the signing?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Just the signing?

ELOISE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Hearing people can let go off that, and signing impaired people they can relax out of it if they’re shown how. And especially because this music has been around for such a long time they probably know the words.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý They can probably imagine it. You see, I’m a huge music fan.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m just wondering what the audio describer would do in that situation.

ELOISE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Oh, could you imagine how beautiful that could be though if they could pair it? Because you know like in visual vernacular in sign language that gets so…like the imagery of that could be translated back into the poetry, so then it’s like ooh, that’s interesting. I don’t know.

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý That’s actually blowing my mind. Can we stop talking about this now?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Eloise is blowing my mind. Where, how did you, where, what, how…?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý [Laughs] we’re running out of time. What did you want to ask?

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Eloise, thank you so much for coming on. It’s been an absolute pleasure. So, you’re filming for the next series, aren’t you, at them moment? I can say that.

ELOISE-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Next series of Phoenix Rise, which is very exciting. And you can catch up with two series of Phoenix Rise on ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ iPlayer. Go and watch. She’s amazing. Sassy.

ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Well, that was Eloise everybody. I mean, don’t you just wish you were that sorted at 18, eh?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý She’s just like a really fancy bottle of fizzy pop. She’s just like bubbling over with really awesome stuff, isn’t she? Honestly, I’ve never, ever heard someone sound so sorted at that age, disabled or not to be honest.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Yeah, she’s amazing. Well, that’s it from us this week. But please do subscribe to us on ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ Sounds, and our latest episode will pop up when it becomes available. We’ll both be back next week, unless you’re off on holiday again, Emma? Going anywhere nice? Caribbean this time?

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý No, nothing till Christmas now.

NIKKI-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Until next week people, goodbye. Ìý

EMMA-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Bye.

[Trailer for Newscast]

PRESENTER-Ìý You know when you’re worried about something, but then you talk to your friend who knows more about the subject than you do, and straightaway you start to feel better? That’s what we try and do every day on Newscast.

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Now, they’re saying that that would be simple to do, it would give everyone certainty.

PRESENTER-Ìý We talk to people who are in the news:

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý You were chasing me round with a plate of cheese.

PRESENTER-Ìý We talk to people who know what’s going on in the news:

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý At least I didn’t get up and slap anybody.

PRESENTER-Ìý We talk to people who understand what the news means:

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I think that he’s decided he’s going to listen, and then he might just intervene.

PRESENTER-Ìý And we talk to the best ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ journalists, asking the most important questions:

CHRIS-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý What’s wrong with chinos? You don’t want them, people to start wearing chinos?

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý Don’t start me, Chris.

PRESENTER-Ìý That’s Newscast from ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ News, the podcast that knows a lot of people who know a lot about the news.

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý And I was like, go on Kate, put some more welly into it!

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CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m glad I asked that.

CLIP-ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý I’m very glad that you asked that!