成人快手

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THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.听 BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE 成人快手 CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

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IN TOUCH 鈥� Accessibility of Ticketmaster and Sonos Speakers

TX:听 28.05.2024听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:听听听听听听听听听听听 BETH HEMMINGS

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White

Hello.听 Today, two illustrations of the fact that however good our assistive technology is, it can often depend on commercial companies remembering the needs of its visually impaired customers.听 Stephen Morgan certainly thought that Ticketmaster had forgotten his needs when he wanted to buy surprise tickets for his partner and daughter to see the American rock band Foo Fighters.听 I asked him what the issue was with Ticketmaster鈥檚 booking process as far as he was concerned.

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Morgan

It was extremely complicated to deal with.听 There were a number of dropdown menus you had to pick for each category of disability, whether you鈥檙e sighted, whether you had access needs, whether you wanted to have a companion and once you鈥檇 gone through all of those then you had to pick the seat.听 For somebody who鈥檚 visually impaired, like myself, choosing the seats was extremely difficult, there were small, either blue or grey dots, you had to pick.

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White

How many times did you actually try to do this?听 Because I know you were trying to do this as a surprise for your partner and daughter.

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Morgan

What I originally did was try to buy them when they went on sale back last year and that鈥檚 when I had the major issues with them.听 So, when extra tickets went on sale back beginning of May, I thought I鈥檇 contact Ticketmaster first to see if there鈥檚 not alternative options to buy the tickets via the phone.

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White

Was this a visual thing or were there other aspects to it on the website that you were having difficulty with?

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Morgan

I was using my mobile phone to book the tickets and what I tend to do when I鈥檓 using the mobile phone to book any kind of tickets like that is to take a screenshot of the site, make it larger, so then I can go back into the site again and pick the relevant tickets.听 But [indistinct words] tap my fingers on the screen to enlarge the screen and the screen kept freezing all the time.听 I think I went in about two or three times to try to book the tickets and, of course, each time you鈥檙e going to the back of the queue.

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White

Stephen, we can illustrate the problems you had getting your message across with a flavour of the email exchange you had with the company.听 They鈥檙e read by our team:

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Email exchange

Morgan

I was unable to purchase tickets on the original sale date due to problems with my eyes.听 Is there an alternative method of purchasing tickets due to my sight impairment?

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Ticketmaster

I鈥檓 sorry to hear that you鈥檝e been unable to book accessible tickets.听 The show went on sale a while ago and it鈥檚 been really popular, so, unfortunately, we haven鈥檛 got anymore accessible tickets available at the minute.听 Keep an eye on our website though as tickets are sometimes released a bit nearer to the time.听 I鈥檓 sorry we can鈥檛 help further but if there鈥檚 anything else we can help with, please don鈥檛 hesitate to get in touch.

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Morgan

I鈥檓 sorry to read your reply, which is unhelpful, you鈥檝e obviously not read my original email and I feel I鈥檓 being discriminated against because of my disability.听 Not all blind people can use your site and I have clearly asked for an alternative method to booking a ticket even if accessible tickets are not available.听 A carer or companion ticket should be available for which I have asked.

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Ticketmaster

Thank you for your email.听 I鈥檓 sorry to hear you鈥檙e having difficulty booking accessible tickets.听 All our tickets are available to be purchased online.听 The below guide can be used to check accessible tickets.听 When you鈥檙e on your events page select all ticket types, then select essential companion, the available tickets will then be highlighted on the interactive map.听 We鈥檝e made accessible tickets stand out from standard seats on our interactive map by having all accessible seats include a wheelchair image on them.听 If there鈥檚 anything else I can help you with please do not hesitate to get in touch.

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Morgan

I understand the instructions but you鈥檙e missing the point and I鈥檓 not sure how much clearer I can make this but I鈥檓 severely sight impaired and booking tickets via your website is not accessible.听 What reasonable adjustments under the Equality Act can you make in this instance?

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Ticketmaster

Unfortunately, on checking, due to unprecedented demand all accessible tickets, including contingencies have been allocated.听 Remaining standard tickets are available at the following link.听 We鈥檙e sorry that we can鈥檛 help with your request on this occasion but we do hope that we鈥檙e able to help with any enquiries you may have in the future.

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White

Now Stephen, I can hear your pain while you鈥檙e trying to get your message across.听 I think the situation has finally been resolved, hasn鈥檛 it?

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Morgan

It took a while to resolve it, it took nearly two weeks.听 In the end they arranged for a member of their team to ring me back and purchase the tickets over the phone, which they did do, although it was a day late.听 And then there was still a problem getting tickets, they expect me to get the tickets from the book office on the day of the event.

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White

And I mean the whole point of this was it was supposed to be a surprise, wasn鈥檛 it, originally, was that all spoiled really?

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Morgan

It was yeah, I had to tell my partner and my daughter what was going on because it was so frustrating.

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White

Will you be using Ticketmaster again?

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Morgan

I鈥檝e tried not to, to be honest, this is only second time I鈥檝e used them.

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White

Well, obviously, not a happy experience?

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Morgan

No, not at all, no.

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White

Well, stay on the line.听 Ellen Owen is someone else who enjoys a good gig but who despite being quite tech savvy has also struggled with Ticketmaster鈥檚 booking system.听 Ellen, explain the kind of difficulties you鈥檝e had.

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Owen

So, I鈥檓 a screen reader user and I went on there.听 The most recent example was when I was trying to book Jason Manford tickets and I chose visually impaired, from the dropdown menu, and then I was confronted with a map, which the voiceover screen reader only reads out as image, image, image and so you can鈥檛 choose the accessible seating at all, which is ironic.听 I thought if you choose visually impaired from the menu you would get a different outcome.听 And it used to be, as well, that Ticketmaster would give you a call if you were struggling to book tickets but the problem with that is they wouldn鈥檛 tell you when they were calling you and it can then be that the tickets are all sold out because everybody else has been able to get tickets and we鈥檙e stuck not being able to.听 By the time you鈥檝e got to the checkout, there鈥檚 a button that you have to click on to agree with their terms and conditions and that is just read as a button and you can鈥檛 proceed beyond that, which then means the timer runs out and you then end up missing out on tickets again.

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White

So, it doesn鈥檛 explain what the button is, it just says button?

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Owen

Yes.

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White

I mean this must have been extraordinary frustrating for you?

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Owen

Yeah, very frustrating.听 I鈥檝e missed out on quite a few concerts 鈥� Ed Sheeran, for example 鈥� anything that鈥檚 very popular, anything that has tickets that you know that the tickets are going to go quickly, you just know you鈥檝e got no chance of getting any 鈥� Coldplay was another example where I tried to ring on the phone but again you just end up on the line for hours and then there are no tickets available at the end of it.

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White

I mean it鈥檚 always going to depend, to some extent, on speed of reaction, isn鈥檛 it, because of the demand and you know, first come, first served.听 What do you think companies like Ticketmaster should do to improve their services to visually impaired people and giving them a fair chance in the race for tickets?

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Owen

I think there needs to be a dedicated line that you can ring yourself where there are staff there that are able to answer the phone calls but I also think that they need to work with visually impaired people to implement accessibility on the websites for screen readers actively work and to test what they鈥檙e able to do.听 If you book standard tickets you can click on best available and then seats are automatically chosen without you having to choose a seat yourself, so I don鈥檛 know why they can鈥檛 simply add the best available option to the accessible tickets section of the site.

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White

Yeah, I mean do you think they are bearing in mind visually impaired people, when they make these kinds of arrangements?

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Owen

I don鈥檛 think they think about that at all, I think they think they鈥檙e sort of covering themselves by saying we鈥檒l give you a call, even if it鈥檚 48 hours after.听 They鈥檙e covering their backs by offering that, so when you confront them with the issue of it being inaccessible, they will just cover that by saying 鈥� Well, we offer it another way.听 But it鈥檚 not a way that鈥檚 very fair.

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White

And Stephen, just finally, going back to you, any other ideas about what they might do to make the system less clunky?

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Morgan

I鈥檇 agree as well, a telephone option should be available or perhaps early access availability, where you鈥檝e got more time to book the tickets, in case anything goes wrong.

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White

Okay.听 Well, Steve Morgan, Ellen Owen, thank you very much and we can only hope that you have a less trying time next time.听 We, of course, contacted Ticketmaster, they turned down our request for someone to appear on the programme but in a statement they told us: 鈥淭he accessibility of our site and ensuring that fans have equal access to events is of the utmost importance to Ticketmaster, this is a big area of focus for the team, we are constantly reviewing our processes and we take on board all feedback to make improvements wherever we can.听 We can always do better and our work here never stops.鈥�

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Well, if you鈥檝e given up the fight for a ticket to see the Foo Fighters and decided just to listen to them on some very good speakers you may still run into trouble I鈥檓 afraid, especially if you鈥檙e using what many visually impaired people have, until now, regarded as very accessible, albeit pretty pricey, speakers produced by Sonos but recent changes involving an update to their app has produced a howl of rage from visually impaired users all over the world.听

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Jonathan Mosen is a constant and very well-informed writer and blogger on access and assistive technology and is himself a Sonos user.听 He鈥檚 based in New Zealand.听 I spoke to him earlier today and first of all, for those people who perhaps don鈥檛 know as much as technology as he does, I asked him to explain a bit more about Sonos equipment, what they make and why till now they鈥檝e been regarded as very good for accessibility for visually impaired people.

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Mosen

Historically, Sonos has made speakers, they鈥檙e just getting into the headphone business now but their speaker range is what鈥檚 made them famous.听 And they make themselves famous for being multi-room and very synchronised.听 So, the idea is that you get deeply into the Sonos ecosystem, you might have a very big expensive system in your living room that might be connected to your television, you might have other smaller speakers in bedrooms and even bathrooms and they can all synch 鈥� you can tell the Sonos app where you want music played.听 And it might be that you have sound playing in different parts of the house with different sounds, if you鈥檝e got a large family or it might be that you synch the speakers up.

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White

Am I right in thinking you鈥檝e got 15 of them?

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Mosen

Guilty as charged.听 So, I鈥檝e invested pretty heavily in this Sonos ecosystem.听 We鈥檝e got a fairly large home and we find it brilliant when it鈥檚 all working.

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White

So, what鈥檚 changed?听 What鈥檚 gone wrong?

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Mosen

Whenever you hear a manufacturer say we鈥檝e got a brand-new app coming and it鈥檚 been rewritten from the ground up, it does tend to strike fear into the hearts of blind people because often that鈥檚 not a good thing if they haven鈥檛 thought about accessibility at the onset of that process.听 When we heard that a new app was coming, I actually reached out to contacts at Sonos to try and establish whether they were thinking about accessibility and it took me quite a while to get any kind of answer at all from Sonos but finally they came back with a very curious answer.听 They said 鈥� Yes, we have thought about accessibility, it鈥檚 going to be a bit rough and ready to begin with but we intend to improve it over time.听 Well, apparently, something went wrong in the final stages and somebody who was a tester for this app blew the whistle to me and told me that they actually risked breaching their non-disclosure agreement but they told me that actually the app was in really bad shape and if blind people were to update to this app, when it was released, it would significantly impede their ability to use their systems.听 The thing about this, Peter, is that if you upgrade an app, particularly on an iPhone, it鈥檚 a one-way trip, you can鈥檛 keep an old copy, you can鈥檛 downgrade again if you鈥檝e found that the upgrade isn鈥檛 what you wanted.听 So, I felt it was necessary to put the word out on my blog and podcast because if blind people were to upgrade to this app it would seriously impede their ability to use the system that they鈥檇 paid thousands of pounds for.

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White

So, have you noticed the problem?

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Mosen

Oh, it鈥檚 extremely grim, yeah.听 I put the app on a test machine, when it first came out it was pretty much unusable.听 Now since then they鈥檝e come out with a couple of fixes and it鈥檚 progressively getting better.听 But I think there are questions really about why wasn鈥檛 accessibility really at the very foundation of the design principles of this new app and why did they think it appropriate to essentially brick, to some degree, the systems of blind and visually impaired people by releasing an app in this state.

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White

What should they have done to ensure continuity of usability for visually impaired people?

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Mosen

When you鈥檝e got a group of design people creating an app like this, one of the primary questions has to be okay, how are we going to ensure that this is accessible to blind people who use talkback on android, voiceover on the iPhone, various screen readers for the Mac and Windows, how do we build this in at the foundational level from day one and are we getting it right.听 And the way that you determine whether you鈥檙e getting it right is to assemble a pool of testers 鈥� blind people who use this material every day to test it out and give them feedback.听 Now they tell me that they鈥檝e got a group now of about 30 or 40 blind people testing it but they鈥檝e only put that group together largely after the outcry.听 I鈥檝e heard from many blind people who鈥檝e written passionately as a protest to Sonos to say that they feel like they鈥檝e been let down, there鈥檚 a huge breach of trust here.听 And even when they do eventually fix it completely, and I鈥檓 confident we鈥檙e on the right track now, it鈥檚 going to take a long time to rebuild that trust.

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White

Jonathan Mosen there.

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Well Nick Millington is Chief Innovation Officer at Sonos and he鈥檚 been listening to that.听 Nick, do you accept what Jonathan says and if so, what went wrong?

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Millington

We released a new version of the app, as he explains, on May 7th and we realised in the days leading up to that that we had on IOS an error, which essentially prevented screen readers, the technology that鈥檚 used by blind customers to access areas of the app, from directly accessing the UI controls by putting their finger over them, which made it rather cumbersome to use.听 And so, I accept that made it difficult to use the app.听 We have responded to that with the highest possible speed and released a new version that corrected that basic interaction issue.听 However, we continue to be working day and night on improving the screen reader support further and hope to see more progress in the coming weeks.

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White

Shouldn鈥檛 that have been anticipated though, I mean it鈥檚 not just Jonathan who鈥檚 complaining about this, your own National Federation of the Blind has come out really with feeling very aggrieved that this wasn鈥檛 spotted before people were completely taken by surprise by it?

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Millington

I think we do regret that it got out into the wild.听 The iPhone update process also has another feature that allows you to roll out updates to the app slowly, which, of course, we used during the update to our app and as the feedback came in, at various times, we paused and restarted that upgrade process to give us time to correct the error.听 And so, I certainly regret any customers who were impacted by our error and we鈥檒l try to do better in the future.

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White

Will you consult with visually impaired people early enough when making changes in future, you know, to stop mistakes like this happening because I think that鈥檚 the suggestion that Jonathan is making, that more visually impaired people need to be involved in the process?

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Millington

We鈥檝e put together a panel of individuals who are visually impaired to varying degrees that will help us do that in the future.

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White

How will you build back trust of your visually impaired customers?

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Millington

We need to provide a clearer roadmap of any improvements that we plan to make in the future, so people aren鈥檛 wondering if we have removed something intentionally or by accident, or something like that.听 Software bugs definitely happen but it makes it worse if you鈥檙e not communicating clearly.听 The second thing that we need to do is to live up to the promises that we鈥檝e made to show rapid improvement in the state of support for screen readers in the app.听 And then lastly, we need to engage more with this community.听 We are combining the passion of our employees for accessibility with real feedback and I think if we do those three things hopefully, over time, we will re-earn the trust of the visually impaired community.

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White

Nick Millington of Sonos, thank you very much for coming on.

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That鈥檚 it for today, but, of course, we would like to hear your views and your direct experiences of unusable equipment or other access issues you鈥檇 like us to look at.听 You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk, you can leave voice messages at 0161 8361338 or go to our website at bbc.co.uk/intouch.

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From me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio managers Simon Highfield and Kelly Young, goodbye.

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