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IN TOUCH 鈥� All the light we cannot see

TX:听 14.11.2023听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:听听听听听听听听听听听 BETH HEMMINGS

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White

Good evening.听 Authors who choose to create blind characters have traditionally found it a bit of a risky business, particularly, although not exclusively, if they鈥檙e not blind themselves.听 We are quick to seize on inaccuracies, things that we feel don鈥檛 portray the real experience of what it鈥檚 like to be blind or partially sighted or which go a bit heavy on the pity.听 But in my experience, this hasn鈥檛 been the case with Anthony Doerr鈥檚 2014 novel All the Light We Cannot See.听 Not only did it wow the critics but it鈥檚 been an international bestseller, which most of the blind people that I鈥檝e talked to have raved about.

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Well, I鈥檓 not going to spoil it for those who haven鈥檛 read it, except to say that it鈥檚 set in Nazi occupied France during World War 2, our heroine, who happens to be blind, gets involved with the local French resistance and there鈥檚 a very valuable diamond involved as well.听 But we鈥檙e talking about it now because it鈥檚 just been adapted into a TV series on Netflix and we wanted to see how well it had made the transition from book to screen, particularly in the eyes, or should I say the ears, of visually impaired people.听 It鈥檚 audio described.

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So, to discuss it we鈥檙e joined by three people who鈥檝e engaged with the production in different ways.听 Sean Randall is an avid consumer of books, he鈥檚 read this one, all 500 plus pages of it and he鈥檚 been binge watching the four-part series over the weekend.听 Our own Fern Lulham read the audio description script and Aria Mia Loberti was one of two actors to play the part of what you might call the heroine Marie-Laure LeBlanc.听 She鈥檚 played as a small child by Nell Sutton, who鈥檚 also blind and by Aria, as a young adult, when most of the action takes place.

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So, Aria, let鈥檚 start with you and we鈥檙e delighted that you could join us from Rhode Island.听 You weren鈥檛 a professional actor so how did getting the part come about?

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Loberti

No, I never really considered being an actor because it seemed tantamount to being a brain surgeon or [indistinct words].听 So, I turned my attention instead to academics and then out of the blue my orientation and mobility specialist, from when I was a child, texted me and said I saw this casting search come up for this book, I don鈥檛 know if you鈥檙e familiar with it.听 And I most definitely was familiar with the book.听 But I wrote back to her 鈥� No, I don鈥檛 act, I hope they consider casting an actor who鈥檚 blind or low vision for this character because I think that would be really amazing, to break that glass ceiling but like, no.听 And then I thought about it and I was like maybe this is something that I could just do for fun and it would give me the courage to like try out for community theatre or school plays or something.

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White

Right, so you went along thinking you didn鈥檛 have any chance of getting the part?

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Loberti

Yeah, no, I was just having fun, yeah.听 And I went to meet with the UK based casting director and that was really hard because she said to me 鈥� Oh, when you come on this call, you know, the director, Shawn Levy, is going to be there on the call 鈥� and I鈥檓 a huge Stranger Things fan and he鈥檚 the director of some of those episodes and I鈥檓 just like 鈥� Oh gosh, this is surreal.听 And then she goes 鈥� Well, you have to do a British accent, will you be okay with that?听 And I鈥檓 like 鈥� Oh, actually, I just came back from England, I studied for over a year getting my masters degree.听 And she said 鈥� Oh good, let鈥檚 try a little accent.听 So, I did it and she was like 鈥� Well, you sound like you鈥檙e from Essex.听 I鈥檓 like 鈥� Well, I鈥檓 very sorry but one of my best friends ever was from Essex.听 So, unknowingly, I was doing an impression of her.

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White

Come on then Aria, give us a bit of English.

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Loberti

Well, when I always do my impression and my friend from Essex, it kind of sounded like this and, you know, it鈥檚 not a very good Essex accent, I鈥檒l admit but it was what I thought was right.听 And then I slowly started to soften it out on the audition.听 And then I worked for like, I don鈥檛 know, like two, three months with a dialect coach and he really helped me transform my accent into something that sounded a bit more authentic.

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White

I鈥檓 just going to bring in Sean because you鈥檝e been listening to her all the weekend Sean, where did you think she sounded like she came from?

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Randall

I mean English without a doubt, that accent nailed it.听 And in fact, I think, Peter, for people who haven鈥檛 heard the series yet they wouldn鈥檛 believe it鈥檚 the same person, that鈥檚 a remarkably good accent.

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Loberti

Thank you.听 I really appreciate that you say that.

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White

Well, no, now you do, you sound like you come from Hertfordshire.

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Randall

It鈥檚 lovely isn鈥檛 it.听 Can I just chime in very briefly here, Peter, and say that my daughter and I are big Stranger Things fans so Shawn Levy was a name familiar to us as well.听 But Aria, what you鈥檝e done, by being on my TV all weekend, is what鈥檚 happened to you by meeting him, I am now thinking 鈥� gosh, I鈥檓 sat talking to you 鈥� in the same way you might think it was like talking to him, that鈥檚 quite an achievement, that鈥檚 brilliant.

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Loberti

Aw, thank you.

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White

Aria, just one more thing before we move on to discuss it a bit more.听 This was your first big role, but you were acting alongside some pretty big names, weren鈥檛 you?

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Clip 鈥� All the Light We Cannot See

Etienne LeBlanc

Right, you are now sitting in front of my radio.

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[She grins, her hands wander over the equipment finding the microphone in front of her]

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Marie-Laure LeBlanc

What鈥檚 the microphone for?

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Etienne LeBlanc

Oh, the microphone is鈥�

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[He sits beside her]

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鈥�connected to this, the transmitter and I sometimes use it to add my voice to the babble of voices.

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Marie-Laure LeBlanc

What do you say when you speak?

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Etienne LeBlanc

I say 鈥淚sn鈥檛 the world a beautiful place?鈥�

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Marie-Laure LeBlanc

And then you ask, 鈥淪o, why are we destroying it?鈥澨� Most of my life I have listened to the broadcasts, a man who calls himself the 鈥楶rofessor鈥�, you are the professor.

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Etienne LeBlanc

Well, that鈥檚 absurd.听 Do I look like a professor?

Marie-Laure LeBlanc

I don鈥檛 know what you look like but I do know voices as if they were faces.

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Etienne LeBlanc

I was never really sure that was anyone even listening.

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Marie-Laure LeBlanc

I was always listening.

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[He retrieves her cane and places it in her hand]

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Etienne LeBlanc

Here, careful on the stairs.

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Marie-Laure LeBlanc

I know.

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Etienne LeBlanc

It鈥檚 five steps.

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Marie-Laure LeBlanc

Actually, it鈥檚 six steps.听 To the left.

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Etienne LeBlanc

To the left.

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That鈥檚 Hugh Laurie showing you his radio setup which plays an integral part in the story.听 What was it like to act alongside him and Mark Ruffalo, who plays your father?

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Loberti

Well, I want to just point out that at the end of that clip that you mentioned about me correcting the steps was not in the script, Hugh just kind of messed up the number of steps and I turned around and gently corrected him in the scene.听 And actually, people were laughing so hard when that happened that it became something people liked and it became part of the show.听 It was very funny.听 And that鈥檚 what it was like working with him.听 Like we were always tongue in cheek joking with each other and if we weren鈥檛 joking with each other or trying to make the other person laugh, we were philosophising about something.听 And he鈥檚 one of those people that just has this beautiful warmth about him.听 The sense of authority but it鈥檚 not intimidating at all.听 And Mark Ruffalo plays my favourite Avenger, so like just, you know, I watch House, so just getting to be in the room with those people, it felt like I was living some sort of wild fantasy, it was crazy.

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White

Well, just one more thing on the character of your part, before I bring in Sean and Fern, because apart from it being quite a wild adventure, authenticity is one of the things people seem to like about the book and the way it deals with blindness and Fern and Sean may say more about this but how did you decide to play Marie, how much is she like you for instance?

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Loberti

It鈥檚 so interesting and I鈥檓 really glad you asked this question because our experience of blindness is totally, totally different.听 I was born with my eye condition, she, in the book and in the film, goes blind when she鈥檚 about six.听 She is described in the book 鈥� it becomes more ambiguous in the show 鈥� but she鈥檚 described in the book as basically seeing a black void and only really 10% of the blind community has that experience and for me, I can have a lot of residual vision in controlled lighting but when I go outside in sunlight that鈥檚 when I become totally blind, it鈥檚 not a black void, it鈥檚 a while void depending on the environment, my vision can be so variable.听 Her blindness is also very consistent, so like that鈥檚 something that we don鈥檛 have in common.听 But I really wanted to shed a lot of light on the authentic portrayal because I think a lot of people who may not come from this community or may not know anyone from the blind or low vision community may just expect a vapid face, a vacant expression, someone who would never look you in the eye or attempt to look you in the eye and in reality that鈥檚 just not the experience at all, like especially if you鈥檝e been blind for a long time, like you are taught that it鈥檚 the polite thing to do, to do your best to maintain eye contact and you do that by listening, by sound so that you can fit in with society.听 And for me I did all those things to prevent bullying when I was a kid but for Marie, obviously, she is totally blind, so the way she does that is going to be different than the way I do it.

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White

Let鈥檚 just turn to Sean Randall for a moment, if he鈥檚 not too starstruck to speak to us.听 First of all, what did you think of the book and what did you think of the series?听 I mean a lot has to be lost from a 500 plus page book to suit the screen, doesn鈥檛 it?

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Randall

Yeah, it鈥檚 very rare I think, for me, to enjoy a series as much as a book.听 I鈥檝e always maintained that when you watch TV, as someone who鈥檚 got no sight and has never had sight, you鈥檙e always playing catchup.听 In this case the book was just poetry, the prose are beautiful, it moved me several times in different directions and it was a really powerful read.听 The story that Aria鈥檚 managed to sort of breathe through her portrayal of this character is amazing.

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White

But we know she鈥檚 blind, how possible do you think it is in an adventure story, like this, which has got to be pretty gung-ho, to make her believable?

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Randall

I think that was done well, there is so much build up as she works alongside the resistance but we see her learning and struggling and striving to pick up the geography.听 It鈥檚 all twisted into a very believable aspect and I think that was very cleverly done on behalf of Anthony Doerr.听 And again, with the portrayal, both of them, both media, captured that beautifully.听 And I think the fact that we see Marie-Laure learning her way around, learning the routes, learning all those skills, shows sighted people that we can, as blind people, learn, we are able and that鈥檚 one of the things he鈥檚 done really well with the character.

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White

Well, also with us is Fern Lulham and Fern did the audio description for this.听 Before we hear from you let鈥檚 just hear an example of your audio description.

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Audio description clip 鈥� Fern Lulham

Saint-Malo, Nazi occupied France, August 1944.

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Nearly a dozen hulking bomber planes fly towards Saint-Malo.听 United States army air forces, 564th bomb squadron.听 Growing anti-aircraft rounds streak toward them.听 One round hits a bomber, flames trail from its wing.听 Each plane drops a long cascade of bombs.听

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That鈥檚 taken from the opening scene of the Netflix series and it鈥檚 where audio description really comes into its own.听 Fern, how did you get involved in this project?

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Lulham

I鈥檇 been doing audio description since about 2020 and I鈥檇 worked with International Digital Centre, who produced the audio description for All the Light and they are really kind of leading the way as inclusive audio description providers, getting blind people actually involved in the process of doing it, not just making it as a product for blind people.听 And so, being able to narrate such an important series that really makes blind people feel so seen and celebrated was just amazing and it meant 鈥� meant the world to me.

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White

How does it work?听 Do you get presented with a script?

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Lulham

Yes, so, Liz Gutman, who was one of the people from IDC who approached me, along with Eric Wickstrom, she was the writer of the script.听 What I get is I get a script with the lines that I need to say and then you also get the timings, so how long do you have to fit it into the rest of the track.听 Partly you鈥檙e guided by the audio and the dialogue of the film or the series or whatever you鈥檙e narrating, you know, there鈥檚 only so much you can do and you kind of have to practise that as a narrator, how can I say this quickly but also say it so that people can actually understand what I鈥檓 going on about.

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White

So, given how significant language is now thought to be, to the references to disabled people, blind people specifically in this case, do you have a say?听 If you saw something and you thought that鈥檚 not right, it shouldn鈥檛 be like that, would you bring it to their attention?

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Lulham

Yes.听 That is one of the things I love about audio description is that it鈥檚 such a collaborative team effort and it鈥檚 really lovely to have teams that are made up of non-disabled and disabled people working together.听 But I know, Aria, you were even asked about the audio description, it was put through a few different people 鈥� Joe Strechay, who was also a disability consultant on All the Light and everyone says yes, that is the right wording, that is the right language.听 So, it鈥檚 definitely a case of, you know, we will write the script and give it to you but please give us your feedback as well.

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White

So, Aria, we were talking about authenticity of Marie-Laure, I mean at one point your character uses a gun, did you have to learn to use one for the series?

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Loberti

Yeah, so, actually I loved the question you posed to Sean about do you think this is believable because everything that we did, everything you see on screen is me, there is no body double used, except there is a stunt double used to drive the car in episode two because no actor is allowed to drive a car for safety reasons and I didn鈥檛 want to be a chicken murderer because you have to drive it through the chickens so鈥� but everything you see鈥� everything else you see on screen is me, including being drowned in episode two 鈥� a spoiler alert.听 So, I trained for a couple of weeks with a 1917 Colt revolver and we had two of them because they kept sticking and I learned how to shoot and I learned how to aim.听 But the environment was kept really, really great for me, I mean the scenes were filmed in a more darker room, they take place at night, so that was just a happy accident that it was a really good place for me visually.听 But the character can鈥檛 look at the gun, she鈥檚 not using the residual vision.听 So, I was adapting to the mindset that I would have if I were in bright sunlight doing those actions.听 And there鈥檚 this really awesome sequence that our director chose to add in just based on some of the rehearsals that he saw, with me rehearse, like learning how to shoot out in the bright sunlight so I could get into that headspace, where Marie is looking away from her arm and shooting in the opposite direction.听 And I鈥檓 like it鈥檚 so cool to bring that level of authenticity because it鈥檚 all based on hearing and I think he鈥檚 done such a masterful job of conveying that.

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White

Aria, it鈥檚 so brilliant to get this kind of inside information.听 We鈥檙e almost out of time but there was something I do want to ask Sean.听 Do you think, given what we鈥檝e just been talking about, is there a risk of us going from blind characters habitually being the victims in the films and the recipients of pity to being almost super heroes?

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Randall

Well, this is a worry, isn鈥檛 it, we had this with Daredevil, you know, when there were lots of people on social media that were like 鈥� are you like Daredevil, can you hear everything鈥�

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Loberti

I got that, seriously, once a week in college 鈥� are you like Daredevil.

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Randall

Yeah, yeah, I鈥檓 sure.听 But I think what you鈥檝e done as an actress is you鈥檝e got a really beautiful character to work with in print and you鈥檝e turned it into a believable blind character on screen.听 I mean there are foibles, you know, there are things that don鈥檛 work when you can鈥檛 see but that鈥檚 all folded naturally into your way of life and all the things you do as part of the show are consistent and that鈥檚 what makes it so real.听 I did make note of one quote and when Marie鈥檚 talking to Werner and literally all she says is: 鈥淚t鈥檚 not bravery, I have no choice.听 I wake up and live my life.听 Don鈥檛 you do the same?鈥澨� And I love that because we get a lot of credit as blind people as being brave and I just love that response to being blind as a bravery thing, it鈥檚 a part of who we are.

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White

There is a bit of difference, isn鈥檛 there, between the book and the series which is quite an interesting difference, I鈥檓 going to put it to Aria, that they actually have a bit of a kiss and a cuddle in the film, don鈥檛 they, and in the book, they just eat peaches, that鈥檚 all they do.听 Was that a bit of Hollywood?

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Loberti

There was a lot of debate about is this too Hollywood and we all sat down and we had a really serious conversation about it and I鈥檓 like 鈥� I feel like the reason why we鈥檙e sitting here and we鈥檙e questioning whether this is Hollywood is because you would never hesitate to add this scene if this was a sighted character who is portrayed as powerful and a beacon of hope for another character and then they meet and they have a connection, like, I don鈥檛 think we鈥檇 be sitting here questioning yes.听 Yes, it鈥檚 something that鈥檚 traditional and Hollywood but they both have feelings for each other and Werner basically says in the book how much he wishes that he could stay with her and how much she wishes they could have a romance.听 And for her to act upon that and be the beacon for all of us, I can鈥檛 speak for a young man or I can鈥檛 speak for other genders, but a lot of young women, wish that we had, as blind women, is really special and I鈥檓 glad that it鈥檚 included.

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White

Many, many thanks to you all 鈥� Aria Mia Loberti, Sean Randall and Fern Lulham, thank you so much for joining us.听 And the Netflix series All the Light We Cannot See was written by Steven Knight and directed by Shawn Levy.

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And that鈥檚 it for today.听 As always, we鈥檇 like your responses to anything you鈥檝e heard in the programme and indeed anything you鈥檇 like to hear in future ones.听 Email intouch@bbc.co.uk, leave your voice messages on 0161 8361338 or you can go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch.听

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From me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio managers Steve Thompson and Amy Brennan, goodbye.

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