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IN TOUCH – Learning Languages

TX:Ìý 02.10.2023Ìý 2040-2100

PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý BETH HEMMINGS

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White

Good evening.Ìý Bon soiree.Ìý Shab Bakhair.Ìý Well, I don’t think much more evidence is needed that I am not one of the world’s natural linguists and a week just spent on holiday in France has confirmed that for me.Ìý Like a lot of people of my generation, I learnt French at school but discovered, once again, that if you don’t keep up with it, what you thought you knew goes away.Ìý As soon as somebody started to speak to me last week at any speed, I was understanding about one word in four.

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So, after a few emails as well from listeners about learning languages and suggestions for some of the best techniques to use if you are visually impaired, we decided to recruit some experts and enthusiasts for languages to share their tips.Ìý They include two teachers, an interpreter at the European Commission and an enthusiast, who’s also a linguist by marriage – you’ll see what I mean in a moment.

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So, let’s get you all, first of all, to introduce yourselves and tell us what languages you speak and in what context you speak them.

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Wolf

I’m Kirsty Wolf and my first language is English.Ìý I also speak German, which I started at school.Ìý During the lockdown I started learning Romanian and more recently I started learning Portuguese.Ìý So, I use English at work because I’m an English teacher but I also use them a lot in my free time too because I think it’s really important to keep using them and making them part of your everyday life.

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Brazier
Hi, I’m Stephen Brazier.Ìý I spoke French from when I was at school and towards the end of my career at work, I began to use it and went back and did an evening thing at the university.Ìý But then after I retired, I decided I would begin to learn German.Ìý And after eight years I managed to get a degree at Nottingham University.Ìý Nowadays I mainly use it in Nottingham where there are lots of language groups that you can go to – sit around in a café or a pub and have informed conversations.

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Roshni

Hi everyone I’m Roshni.Ìý I speak Urdu and Hindi which I started learning in my teens really as a bit of a hobby but then used and needed quite extensively when I went off to work for a few years in South Asia.Ìý I also speak Farsi, on account of being married to an Iranian and needing to speak, ideally, my husband and also my in-laws.Ìý And I’m also, currently, learning Sanskrit to aid in my work as a yoga teacher.

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Thierry

I’m Thierry, I work as a civil servant in the European Commission, so I use my languages as [indistinct words] mainly.Ìý My languages are English, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, Estonian and I’m learning Albanian.Ìý My native language is French.

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White

Right.Ìý Well, I want to start with Kirsty.Ìý Let’s just find out a bit more about how and what you teach.

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Wolf

I provide English language courses for adults, I work online.Ìý I do a lot around business English, conversational English.Ìý A lot of what I do is actually helping people to discover themselves in the other language, so we also work looking at building confidence and being able to say all the things that people want to say in the other language because, you know, it’s not just about learning words and grammar and things like that, although those things are important, people are presenting themselves in a business context and even socially and they want to be able to do that in a way that feels natural and authentic.Ìý I don’t, primarily, teach blind and partially sighted people, although I have had a few customers who know that I understand the need for an accessible learning experience because I’ve had some challenges in the past when I’ve been looking for private language courses.

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White

So, Kirsty, if you do have visually impaired students or when you do, to what extent do your teaching methods differ for them?

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Wolf

They don’t really because my teaching methods have to work for me as well.Ìý From my own personal experience, I have preferred to work one-to-one in language courses, apart from when I was at school because sometimes the teacher will need to rethink about the learning objectives and how I’m going to learn because we don’t use pictures and things like that.Ìý So, I do have groups, a lot of what they do is one-to-one because that’s what people seem to prefer.Ìý I really believe that learning a language should be fun because most people that I’m working with don’t have to do it, so if they’re choosing to do it, then it should be an enjoyable experience.

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White

Right, we’ll come back to methods of teaching a bit later on.Ìý I want to bring in Stephen Brazier.Ìý You went down the more formal route of learning German at university and we’ll talk about that too but you set up – and you mentioned this in your introduction – a language sort of meet up group.Ìý Tell us more about that and why you did that and what you think the value of such a group is.

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Brazier

One of the things I realised when I was doing my German degree was that my French, which was reasonable, was vanishing, it was being blocked out and so I set up a group, one day a week.Ìý I discovered that if you can reuse the language you’ve got for one hour a month, in a reactive situation, in a pub, just talking without an agenda, it’s enough to keep it where it is.Ìý And so, we set up a French group.Ìý So, I think most big towns in Britain have probably got informal language groups where you can go along and speak and listen and if you’re visually impaired speaking and listening is the most critical thing.

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White

I want to go to Roshni.Ìý You also teach a little bit, I think, but you teach Sanskrit?

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Roshni

Yeah, I teach Sanskrit chanting and yoga philosophy, which is based on Sanskrit texts.Ìý Sanskrit is more, I guess, common than people might think because if you have been to a yoga class and you’ve heard the yoga music playing in the background or you’ve chanted ‘Om’ or something at the beginning, then all of those things come from the Sanskrit language.Ìý And Sanskrit is also the route language for languages like Hindi and others that originate in South Asia, which I already speak.Ìý But I can very much relate to what Steven was saying that I think listening and speaking is definitely the priority if you have no sight and because so much of Sanskrit is communicated or was communicated via an oral tradition, chanting is almost equivalent to singing.Ìý There’s a lot of science to backup the fact that if you’re trying to learn a language, learning it in that kind of nuanced way, where you’re maybe singing stuff or engaging in more of a cultural immersion, you’re more likely to absorb it deeply and easily.

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White

Would you care to give us a little demonstration, maybe?

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Roshni
Go on then, I’ll give you a quick mantra, shall I?

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White

Yeah.

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Roshni

[Chanting]

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White

Brilliant, we’ll get you a round of applause from everyone that’s scattered all round the UK.Ìý Let me bring in Thierry.Ìý Now you are different again because you work as an interpreter at the European Commission, an organisation which operates at the heart of European politics of course, what does that role entail and how did it come about?

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Thierry

I studied English and Spanish linguistics in France and I managed to find a job as a foreign language assistant in Scotland.Ìý And then [indistinct words] the job in the nearer city of Bradford, which at that time was a place where there were 20 interpreters.Ìý So, this is where I did my training as an interpreter.Ìý So, I had Spanish as another language, then I studied Italian because to work in the European institutions you need the three languages.Ìý And by and by, during my career, I added other languages.Ìý And that, I think, as a blind person, when you study a language you need as well a way of writing, you cannot learn only by listening to people, you need to know how to write as well.Ìý If you want to make notes, this is what we need, for example, in our job.Ìý When I started to work, we couldn’t go on the internet and nowadays we can get all the documents and meeting documents on internet.Ìý Being in the interpreter booth you can check on the tablet and then either listen to it or use your braille device to read the document.Ìý So, this is why I think, when you’re a blind person and when you want to learn the language, you need also the written support.

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White

Now people are probably thinking this is a pretty high-powered thing for a blind person to do but, actually, you’re by no means the only blind person who works as an interpreter, I think?

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Thierry

Not at all, not at all.Ìý In the European Commission we’re about 10 or 12 people.

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White

Right.Ìý I’d like to pick that up with the others, perhaps going back to Kirsty first.Ìý You know, talking about how you learnt languages, what methods worked for you?

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Wolf

I rely mainly on speech.Ìý I have learnt the braille systems for Romanian, Portuguese just because it’s quicker for input on my phone.Ìý But when I’m on my laptop I will always type.Ìý It’s important to understand what kind of learning you are because in terms of listening to how other people use the language, it’s about understanding how people who use that language choose to put their sentences together and what sounds good, what doesn’t and if you don’t listen to enough material then you won’t know what sounds good or correct.Ìý For example, the lack of subtitles for me, because I can’t see them, actually really helps because if I want to understand something I have to really focus and listen and understand that thing because I can’t rely on getting that information in a written form, if it’s spoken information and most of our conversations are like that.

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White

And Roshni, what about you because, again, we’re talking about you learning Eastern languages, I don’t know, therefore, how much the braille system would compare, how much it’s translatable – tell me.

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Roshni

Yeah, I mean I agree with everything that’s been said.Ìý I think it kind of depends what you want to do.Ìý So, I think if you just want to engage with the language conversationally, it’s enough to be able to listen and copy and make ad hoc notes where you want to and that’s kind of where I learnt Hindi in my teens, you know, because we didn’t have screen readers then, to be honest and I used to just take my big braille machine along to the class and make whatever notes I could, which were mainly phonetic type notes.Ìý And that was enough and that’s been enough for Farsi as well.Ìý But interestingly, what I’m finding now with Sanskrit, actually, is that I’m going back to my braille because screen readers have been a bit slow to reach South Asia and we don’t have them for a lot of Middle Eastern and South Asian languages, even now.Ìý So, it’s been easier for me to learn Sanskrit braille, so that I can read texts correctly and I can chant correctly because Sanskrit has a very specific grammar system and it’s also a tonal language.

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White

And for you, also, having family who spoke Farsi, for example, that must make a big difference when it comes to using it regularly?

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Roshni

It does, it makes a massive difference.Ìý All of my in-laws live in Iran and my father-in-law’s the only one among my extended family who speaks a little bit of English.Ìý And they’re very good – my mother-in-law, in particular, is uber patient and she will get really frustrated if she doesn’t understand what I’m trying to say, so she will gladly sit with me for an hour until we’ve figured out what I’m on about.Ìý And it’s hard work for all of us because, of course, not having that visual thing that other people have, where you can point and say – I want to eat this or I want this item or I’m talking about this – we have to get creative.Ìý But it’s a really interesting learning experience.

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White

And Thierry, I mean given the number of languages you speak, I just wonder what effect that has on your sort of social contacts with people.Ìý I mean you must be in a position where you can hold pretty reasonable conversations with, you know, I don’t know, just about anybody you meet in Europe anyway?

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Thierry

Well, yes, yes, I can speak with all the Spanish speaking people, all the Italian speaking people.Ìý But what is interesting is the cultural dimension of learning languages.Ìý I was at the hairdresser shop recently and my hairdresser is from Syria.Ìý He told me – well, you’re speaking six languages, so it means that you’re six different men.Ìý And I just thought about it, when you learn language you learn a culture, you learn the eating habits, the different way of behaving of people and that’s the interesting things about languages.

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White

I’m just thinking, listening to you all, you’re very competent linguists, that people perhaps who’ve got in touch with us saying they want to learn might be feeling a bit daunted by your skills and your confidence.Ìý I mean one might imagine that because of blind people’s need to rely on listening that learning languages might be something in which we could expect to be reasonably successful.Ìý I mean could we go as far as to say there are advantages in being blind?

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Brazier

Yeah, Peter, it’s Stephen.Ìý I always advise people learning languages to listen to foreign radio, particularly the news, if you can do five minutes a day with the news, most of which you already know because you’ve heard it in English.Ìý And I think visually impaired people have got a big advantage when it comes to taking in information through their ears.Ìý I can listen to texts being read out to me in German from the computer and I think I’m quite good with comprehension because I’ve been practised at listening, anybody with a visual impairment will be better at listening than most people.

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White

Kirsty, what’s your take on this because you said that you basically learnt through listening?

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Wolf

Well, I think it depends on the language that you want to learn and it’s important to be empowered to learn like, for example, when I started learning Romanian there weren’t so many resources for beginners and those that I found were quite visual at times.Ìý So, I think it’s always important not to look at what other people are doing but to find resources that work for you.Ìý So, that could be that you rely more on podcasts than series, it could be that you start making connections with other people.Ìý I had a friend who used to send me audio messages in Romanian, talking about her dog and her family and her work and just basic everyday stuff but I learnt so much that way.Ìý So, it’s really important to make connections at the beginning.

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White

I’m going to ask you all this:Ìý Thierry, one tip, one bit of advice for someone who wants to learn languages but is maybe a bit nervous.

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Thierry

Honestly speaking, Peter, I would have to work with a teacher.Ìý I’ve learned six languages, I’ve always worked with teachers because I’m sorry but I don’t believe in the myth that blind people are more gifted for languages than anybody.Ìý We’re just like average people.

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White

No, we like realism on this programme.

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Thierry

Okay, I know.Ìý And maybe have one-to-one tuition if possible because we are maybe a bit slower in our learning and you learn more because they teach you the culture, they teach the way of behaving, they teach you the country.

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White

Okay, so broken down – get a good teacher.Ìý Roshni, your advice, do you have to marry someone from a different culture?

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Roshni

That might be a bit of an extreme solution, it’s definitely one in the toolbox perhaps but I would say immerse yourself as much as you can in the culture, either by meet up groups in your local community or ideally travelling to the country, if you can, you will pick up so much of the culture and the beauty of the language which will embed it much more deeply in your subconscious.

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White

Okay, just one more quick thing for all of you.Ìý It’s obvious, talking to you and listening to you, that as well as hard work there’s a lot of fun in learning languages and it’s always interesting to explore the different ways in which different languages and perhaps cultures too express ideas and I just wondered do you all have perhaps an example of that in the languages you’ve learned, perhaps phrases that express things in different perhaps to our ears rather quirky ways.Ìý Stephen, going to start with you on that one.

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Brazier

I asked my wife and she doesn’t speak German but she said when we were in Germany the one phrase that she could say was [German phrase], which meant I’ve had enough.Ìý Mine is [German phrase], which is a wonderful word and even when I speak English, sometimes, I want to say it because it means it’s too much flaming trouble.

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White

Very useful.Ìý Roshni, have you got one?

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Roshni

So, in Farsi, there’s a beautiful word for that time when you’re procrastinating and you’re sort of trying to buy time to avoid doing something that you don’t want to do and they call it concept [Farsi phrase], which translates literally as cat dancing, which I think is just a beautiful sentiment for that and really conjures up that picture of a cat jumping about on a hot tin roof trying to ferociously avoid doing something.

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White

Thierry, one from you?

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Thierry

One word in Albanian [Albanian word], which means journey because I think it’s linked with discovering cultures, it’s linked with my job.

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White

Okay and Kirsty, the final one.

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Wolf

I don’t actually have a word like that if I had to end with something I would say it’s like the saying that I read somewhere that perfect can be the enemy of really good because one of the things that people really struggle with in the lessons that I teach is trying to be perfect, trying to make sure everything is 100% right.Ìý Just to go with this, you know, if you do your best, you can often do a lot better than you think you can because one of the things that really gets in our own way is ourselves.

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White

Well, I think, as you say, that may not be a particular word but it’s just another piece of good advice.

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Many, many thanks to you all – Kirsty Wolf, Roshni Hafeez, Steven Brazier and Thierry Teulet, thank you all.

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And that is all from us for now.Ìý Do share with us your own tips and tricks for learning a language or indeed if you’d like to tell us about anything else you can email intouch@bbc.co.uk, leave your voice messages on 0161 8361338 or you can go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch.

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From me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio managers Sharon Hughes and Helen Williams.Ìý Bonsoir tout le monde.Ìý

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[Goodbye from guests in different languages]