³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ

Downloaded from www.bbc.co.uk/radio4

Ìý

THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.Ìý BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

Ìý

Ìý

IN TOUCH – Love and Relationships

TX:Ìý 14.02.2023Ìý 2040-2100

PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý BETH HEMMINGS

Ìý

PRODUCTIONS COORDINATOR:Ìý LIZ POOLE

Ìý

Ìý

Ìý

Hemmings

Hello, I’m Beth Hemmings.Ìý I’m usually the producer for In Touch but I’m sitting in for Peter today as he is on holiday in Barbados – the lucky man.Ìý And today is special actually because it’s my birthday, it’s also Valentine’s Day of course and so I’ve invited some of you on to the programme to talk about love and relationships.Ìý

Ìý

Joining me are two couples and in both one half is visually impaired and the other is sighted.Ìý We’ll be talking about how they share the load with daily life – cooking, housekeeping and children.Ìý We’ll also be talking about the assumptions that people make – they tend to assume that the one who can see must be the carer.Ìý And love isn’t just about others, it’s also about how you view yourself, especially after sight loss.

Ìý

I’ll have my guests introduce themselves, I think.

Ìý

Patel

Hi, oh first of all, Beth, happy birthday.

Ìý

Hemmings

Thank you, I definitely did include that to get birthday wishes, of course.

Ìý

Amit

Well, I’m Amit – Amit Patel – I am an author, I also do a lot of DI consulting and I am the blind half to the couple.Ìý And my wife is:

Ìý

Seema

Hello, I’m Seema.Ìý I am the sighted half of the Patel couple.Ìý I work in government affairs and Amit and I have been married for almost 11 years now.

Ìý

Claire

Hello, I’m Claire Sisk, I am blind and I have been with my boyfriend – I forget – six years.

Ìý

Sergio

It feels like longer, Claire, are you sure?Ìý I’m Sergio and I’m the sighted half of the party.Ìý We literally met at a work’s Christmas party.

Ìý

Claire

I was quite intoxicated so I can’t remember exactly what happened but one of the first things I said to him was – Can I lick your face?Ìý And he said yes.Ìý And so, my motto is:Ìý If you lick it, it’s yours.Ìý And here we are.

Ìý

Hemmings

Six years later, he’s yours.

Ìý

Well, Sergio, I presume then that that was a consensual lick of the face, was it?

Ìý

Sergio

Well, she – to be fair Claire – you asked after you licked my face.

Ìý

Hemmings

Amit, tell me, briefly, how you met Seema.

Ìý

Amit

Yes, so we actually met before I lost my sight.Ìý Seema was living and working in Brussels but she was in London at the time and we just literally bumped into each other at Euston Station.

Ìý

Hemmings

Amit, you mentioned, briefly before, that you met when you had sight and you lost yours quite suddenly overnight.Ìý Back when it happened, you guys were only a year into your marriage, so you must have still been in that proper honeymoon stage…

Ìý

Amit

Oh, absolutely.

Ìý

Hemmings

… what was going through your mind at that time, especially when it came to your relationship?

Ìý

Amit

So, I’ve had corneal transplants but Seema was never there for any of those.Ìý So, when I did lose my sight and it was on the extreme side of things, we knew I wasn’t going to get my sight back.Ìý So, in my head it was very much well, Seema didn’t sign up for this and I felt really guilty that I would burdening her for the rest of her life because I honestly didn’t know if it was going to get any better because it wasn’t just the sight loss, it was obviously my career that kind of disappeared overnight, it was all the pain that’s associated with losing my sight – physically and obviously mentally.Ìý But, as you said, we were right in the honeymoon phase in our lives where I was – I was about to change from being a trauma doctor to being a GP, which meant I could have a nine to five. I’d spend more time with Seema, we were thinking about where we wanted to set up, we were talking about families and, you know, all of these things that you’re really happy about and it got taken away overnight.Ìý But for me, Seema always saw me, saw the fact that I could have the energy to get back, once I was ready she was there and that was always a comfort.

Ìý

Hemmings

Yeah because, of course, there’s the emotional side of losing your sight so suddenly but, of course, there’s all the practicalities like registering as being sight impaired, arranging mobility training and all of that stuff as well, that comes on top of it.Ìý Seema, how were you dealing with seeing someone you love go through all of that?

Ìý

Seema

It was really hard, you can’t sugar coat it, it was a really difficult tricky and also quite a lonely time.Ìý For me because I didn’t know what to do, I didn’t know how to help Amit.Ìý I think I just withdrew a little bit and took some time to refocus on myself, on Amit and what we needed to get through on a day-by-day basis, whether that was making progress on getting Amit to talk to me, whether it was doing all the practical things, trying to make a plan for us because obviously, our lives had been turned upside down overnight – this was not anticipated, it wasn’t a slow progression that we had time to prepare for.Ìý And you sort of find yourself living for the doctor’s appointments or for any sort of new treatments, all these things that are going around in your head.Ìý And actually, it was just about taking a step back and, say, refocussing on what was most important and the most important thing to me was getting my husband back.

Ìý

Hemmings

Well, I’d like to bring Claire and Sergio in on this.Ìý Claire you were already visually impaired when you met Sergio but your sight has changed quite a bit since you’ve been together, hasn’t it?

Ìý

Claire

Yeah, so, when we were working together, I was in the progress of losing my eyesight and the year we got together I still had quite a decent amount, I wasn’t using a white cane.Ìý And then, a little less than a year into our relationship, I woke up one morning and lost the majority of my sight.Ìý When we got together Serg knew that it was likely to happen.Ìý My eye disease is one of those things they’ve never seen before, it was like we just need to monitor it every – every three to six months I was going to Moorfields and it was like – oh no, it’s quite stable, it's quite stable.Ìý So, we weren’t expecting it but we also were expecting it.Ìý And it was a case of that day it was like – okay, well this is now my forever and this is how it’s going to be for us.

Ìý

Hemmings

And Sergio, had you ever really experienced visual impairment before meeting Claire?

Ìý

Sergio

No, not at all.Ìý Back then her boss used to tell me, you know, she’s effectively blind.Ìý I kind of came into this thinking that she was, when she still had some sight and obviously, it was deteriorating.Ìý But I’m just amazed how she does the things that she does do.Ìý She’s so ambitious, she wants to do everything, kind of reining her in is the hard part for me because she’s pretty unstoppable.

Ìý

Hemmings

Wow, yeah, I mean she doesn’t need to be reined in surely?

Ìý

Sergio

Yeah, but, that’s what I’m saying, from a partner of someone who’s visually impaired, the difficulty is the worry that comes with knowing that she’s so independent.Ìý You know, you worry in normal day-to-day life about people, let alone when they’re visually impaired and, obviously, she’s not worried because she’s in it but, for me, that’s the worst part.

Ìý

Hemmings

Seema, do you ever feel that way about Amit?

Ìý

Seema

I used to worry a lot, especially in the early days and I think over time, I don’t know whether it’s because we’ve just gotten into a good rhythm and we have a good system check, processes and things like that in place to stop me worrying all the time and I trust him implicitly and explicitly to stay safe and well.Ìý He knows what he’s doing, he’s a grown man.Ìý Even doing the school run on a daily basis is a gauntlet in itself, so, I’ve found that I’ve had to let go and just let him get on with it and if he needs me, I’ll always be there.

Ìý

Hemmings

Well, as you’ve mentioned there the school runs, you and Amit have two little children – three and six – obviously, kids are notoriously messy, as you said there’s the school runs, there’s homework, how do you share the load with the kids?

Ìý

Amit

We’re pretty good.Ìý The kids have obviously grown up with a visually impaired dad and a mum who can see.Ìý And I don’t think they realised why we did things differently until they started school.Ìý But I remember getting a call from the teacher at school and it was – we’ve given your son a task of homework to do and he didn’t want to do it, it was to draw a flag of where your grandparents came from and he said – well, if I draw a flag of where my grandparents came from my dad’s not going to see it – so he said – I want to do it in tactile.Ìý And so, he’s already thinking outside of the box, he’s not thinking like everybody else.Ìý But it was actually over covid when he was about three years old that he said to me, he said – Dad, how much can you really see?Ìý And we’ve never sat them down to have a conversation on how much I can – and I said I can’t see anything.Ìý He said – Can we do an experiment?Ìý So, we got some sim specs sorted and we kind of blacked them out and we covered the sides, we went to a park where he’s familiar with, we put these on and within a few seconds my wife said – He’s got a tear running down his face.Ìý And then he said – Now I get it, dad.Ìý And they both have arguments about who’s holding my hand in the park and actually, these two children of mine are actually having an argument on who’s going to guide me.Ìý And then, obviously, they do that for 30 seconds and then they’re bored of it now.Ìý And then now they’re having an argument saying – No, you do it.Ìý But that’s what it’s about, it’s all – there’s no rule book, there’s no – there’s no book you can pick up to say how to be a parent or how to be a visually impaired parent.

Ìý

Hemmings

Claire, I understand that you have a daughter, does anything that Amit said there sort of resonate with you?

Ìý

Claire

Yeah, it does.Ìý So, my daughter was quite a bit older, she was nine when my sight loss started.Ìý And as time went on and it was getting worse and had to surrender my driving licence, life with us became a bit difficult.Ìý I was on my own with her at the time and she would sort of sacrifice her weekends to come food shopping with me, to help me and sort of help me get the bus because I couldn’t see the bus numbers and things like that.Ìý And there was one day we were walking through town and we were about to cross the road and she was 13 at the time and she grabbed my hand and I said to her – Oh, you don’t need to hold my hand, it’s fine because you know, your friends are in town, they might see you.Ìý And I just always remember her saying – I don’t care, you’re my mum and I want you to be safe.Ìý And that moment, I just thought to myself, you know, life is really different to how it should be for her, she’s essentially a young carer.Ìý But the fact that she didn’t care whether people saw her holding her mum’s hand, I thought, you know, we’re going to be alright, we’ll be able to do this.Ìý And I mean when I moved in with my boyfriend, he’s got two kids and they’d never been around someone who’s lost their eyesight, so my daughter was used to having put things away exactly where she found it, his kids not so much and, you know, leaving shoes out and things like that.Ìý It didn’t take them too long, once they saw me fall once, it was like – okay, yeah, we definitely can’t do that again.Ìý Otherwise, they get a very angry Claire on their hands and they don’t want that.

Ìý

Hemmings

I’m sure.Ìý Well, I’d like to ask this of all of you, so anyone feel free to jump in on this.Ìý Other people will often look at a relationship with one sighted person and one visually impaired person and think – oh well, the person that can see is obviously the carer.Ìý I’m just wondering how you deal with that, does it bother you?

Ìý

Claire

We had an incident on Saturday and we were coming back from London and we were walking over a bridge and what did the guy say Serg?

Ìý

Sergio

He looked at me, well actually he was starting as he was walking in the opposite direction towards us, and as he come past, he nodded at me and said – Respect brov.

Ìý

Claire

In my head I’m thinking – so, he’s saying well done to you for putting up with me almost, oh well done, you’re looking after the disabled person.Ìý And it’s like, actually, we’ve just been gallivanting around London and I’m the one who has been leading the way and saying – Oh, we need to turn left here, we need to go right there, we go up these stairs – it was me telling him where to go and he’s the one who can see.

Ìý

Sergio

He could have been saying it to you Claire.

Ìý

Claire

I doubt it, I doubt it.

Ìý

Hemmings

Brov – nice one brov.Ìý Amit and Seema, how about you?

Ìý

Amit

We used to get people who say – Oh, you know, are you his carer?Ìý And it’ll be that joke – Oh, you’ve met a blind person so you don’t have to put your makeup on in the morning.Ìý Or when you’re in a restaurant and the waiter will talk just to Seema and then Seema will say…

Ìý

Claire

Oh that is so frustrating isn’t it?

Ìý

Seema

Drives me crazy.

Ìý

Amit

And Seema’s like – You can talk to him.Ìý But, do you know what, it doesn’t anymore.Ìý All these little things that used to build up, all these little negative comments you used to get and it used to ruin your day and I’m like, do you know what, life is too short, I don’t want to ruin my day for what someone else assumes or automatically thinks that all disabled people should be married to disabled people or date disabled people.Ìý We all live a cushy life because we all have benefits that come in and it’s that assumption of being disabled.Ìý But now we’re too old to even let that bother us anymore.

Ìý

Seema

But I do notice when all eyes are on us, like we can walk into a room and everybody is staring.Ìý Now the children notice as well, like – Mummy, why is everybody looking at us?Ìý As much as we can switch that off and try to pay no heed to it, I think the children, now, it’s a difficult one to handle with the little ones.Ìý Is it because of daddy’s white cane, is it because we’ve just walked into a quiet room but they are more mindful of people around us.

Ìý

Amit

The kids come with us everywhere, they mix with us in all social environments so they’re used to being around people with disabilities, it doesn’t phase them but it phases other people who may never have been around people with disabilities.Ìý I – obviously, I don’t see it, so it doesn’t affect me as much but Seema does and she will tell me at the end of the day that – Oh yeah, you know we went in here, you do realise everybody stopped and starred.

Ìý

Hemmings

That’s what I was going to ask, as well, how much, Seema and Sergio, do you see and then keep from your partner or do you just disclose all of it and just say – look that person was starring over there?

Ìý

Sergio

I think from my perspective, I don’t tell Claire anything because there’s just no upside.Ìý Part of my role is to absorb that so that Claire doesn’t have to.Ìý I can absorb it and let it go.

Ìý

Hemmings

Well, Sergio, you have categories for people, don’t you?

Ìý

Sergio

I do, I do, yeah.Ìý You might have noticed the same Seema.Ìý So, there’s three types of people and their behaviour.Ìý So, you’ve got the punishers – so if Claire’s got her cane and she’s walking in a straight line, you’ve got the parents that yank their kids so hard out of the way.Ìý There’s the exaggerators and they’re clearing a path 10 metres ahead and they’re really making a point that they’re exaggerating that they’re clearing the way on your behalf.Ìý And then there’s the floaters who come from nowhere, the people that are looking at their phones and they’re just about to collide with us or mainly Claire and then at the last second they kind of just skip over the cane, you know, nothing to see here.Ìý And of the three the exaggerators are the most common.

Ìý

Hemmings

Well, we’ve been talking about romantic love with someone else but something I’d really to touch upon is this element of self-love because Amit, I know, you went through a bit of sort of a grieving period when you lost your sight.Ìý How did you build your self-confidence back up?

Ìý

Amit

I think a lot of it was down to Seema.Ìý It was always – Seema was always saying to me – When you’re ready Amit, I’m here.Ìý So, it’s that whole thing where if I have a fall she’s there to get me back up again and we do it together.Ìý When I started to learn – learning my white cane, my first goal was to meet my wife at her workplace and go out for lunch.Ìý Having those goals just meant that I’ve got something to work towards and all these tiny little achievements kind of build up and now I travel the world for work on my own.Ìý And that’s what love is – it’s that whole thing where you’ve got the qualities that I have, the qualities that Seema have, we put it together and there’s not a lot we can’t work out.

Ìý

Hemmings

Claire, how about you, what would you say to someone who maybe might be struggling with this at the moment?

Ìý

Claire

I mean, for me, as a woman, losing my eyesight meant the way I dress, doing my makeup, doing my hair, I couldn’t see what that looked like and that’s a huge part of who I am and if I didn’t feel that my clothes looked nice or my hair looked nice then I didn’t feel nice and I didn’t like who I was because I couldn’t see that reflection in the mirror.Ìý You lose so much confidence and self-esteem because you lose a part of who you are when you go through something quite traumatic and you have to try and get that back and you build yourself up.Ìý And I was on my own for a big chunk of my sight loss and then when I got with Serg it came at the right time – my daughter was about to go off to university, I was going to be on my own because I’d never been on my own before, let alone being blind and on my own and it was him who was there to pick up all the pieces and just constantly reassure me and remind me that you can do this, you’re really independent, you know you can do it.Ìý It’s their love for you that makes you feel confident and love yourself.Ìý Without him I don’t think I would be who I am today.

Ìý

Hemmings

Just to end, it is Valentine’s Day after all, so are there any super romantic plans on the cards or are they being kept as surprises?

Ìý

Seema

Oh confession time in this house, we don’t do Valentine’s.Ìý I don’t need a day for me to show Amit how much I love him or for him to show how much he loves me.Ìý Maybe I’ll make him coffee tomorrow, how does that sound, Amit, does that work, rather than you making it for me?

Ìý

Amit

Perfect, perfect.

Ìý

Hemmings

Claire and Sergio, any plans?

Ìý

Sergio

We’re the opposite in this house.Ìý It’s all about the chocolate.

Ìý

Claire

Yeah, we don’t do flowers because I can’t keep them alive.Ìý We actually went to London on Saturday for our Valentine’s and I did drag him past Tiffany’s but he didn’t want to go in there.Ìý So, there’s still no ring.Ìý Maybe next year.

Ìý

Hemmings

Well, you’ll have to keep us updated about that.Ìý Claire Sisk, Sergio Cianfini, Amit and Seema Patel, thank you all so much.

Ìý

And that’s all for today.Ìý Please do send us your love stories or tips on how to love yourself.Ìý You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk, leave us voicemails on 0161 8361338 or go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch.Ìý From me, Beth Hemmings and studio managers Jonathan Esp and Jack Wood, goodbye.