³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ

Downloaded from www.bbc.co.uk/radio4

Ìý

THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.Ìý BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

Ìý

Ìý

IN TOUCH – Guide Dog Waiting Lists; Blind Ice Hockey

TX:Ìý 24.01.2023Ìý 2040-2100

PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

Ìý

PRODUCER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý FERN LULHAM

Ìý

Ìý

Ìý

White

Good evening.Ìý

Ìý

Ice hockey actuality

Ìý

White

Well, that’s the sound of the latest sport that we’re reporting on blind people taking up.Ìý Any ideas what it is?Ìý Well, solutions later.

Ìý

But first, if you want a job doing well do it yourself, or so they say.Ìý But does that really extend to training your own guide dog?Ìý After all there is a well established organisation which thinks that’s its job and that includes selecting the dog, socialising the dog and providing a good match.Ìý But someone who did decide to go it alone is Isabel Holdsworth who joins me now.

Ìý

So, Isabel, first of all, self-training a guide dog sounds like quite a challenge, what drove you to do it in the first place?

Ìý

Holdsworth

Yeah, it’s not for the faint hearted.Ìý My dog died suddenly in 2011 and I had to go to work and college the next day.Ìý Work was right across London and college was back across London the other way.Ìý So, I was feeling pretty stressed that suddenly I would have to do this with a cane.Ìý I was doing it for about three months and I almost fell in front of a train at Liverpool Street Station and I just came to the conclusion I couldn’t do this anymore.Ìý I’d been told by Guide Dogs that there was going to be at least a year to wait for the next dog and I just didn’t feel I could wait that long.

Ìý

White

You mentioned a cane, so you did have some mobility skills?

Ìý

Holdsworth

My cane skills were never brilliant and Guide Dogs kindly sent me a – is it a rehab officer, I’m not quite sure of the wording, who said that I shouldn’t really go out with a cane unless I had further training but I did not have time, you know, I was holding down a job, I was going to college, life had to go on.

Ìý

White

I mean is the training something you just made up as you went along or did you seek guidance?

Ìý

Holdsworth

There are some blind owner trainers in the UK, I talked to them.Ìý I talked to dog behaviourists, dog handlers.Ìý There was an owner training list on the internet, it was a group of people who were currently working there on owner trained dogs, I talked a lot with them.Ìý I did get a lot wrong and there’s a lot I would do differently next time.

Ìý

White

What about finding the dog?

Ìý

Holdsworth

I found one, actually, who’d been rescued and had been in Battersea Dogs ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ and was currently in another rescue.Ìý It wasn’t the ideal way to start owner training and I wouldn’t do it that way again but it worked for me.

Ìý

White

Any disasters?

Ìý

Holdsworth

Yes, actually there was, there was one at Kings Cross.Ìý On her first day, she spotted two police dogs and that was it, she wanted to get to those dogs.Ìý So, she started pulling, making an awful lot of noise.Ìý Another owner trainer had told me, just to put her on the ground and lie beside her and calm her down.Ìý So, there was me and her lying on the ground at Kings Cross Station, that wasn’t ideal but thank goodness that was a one off.

Ìý

White

But did you therefore, become a viable partnership?

Ìý

Holdsworth

Absolutely, absolutely.Ìý I feel that she was the best guide dog I’ve had.Ìý We had a real bond going.Ìý Because I had trained her, she knew what I wanted, I knew what she was capable of and we were just a really good partnership.

Ìý

White

I mean you’re going to hear people say, I suspect, this is a risky thing to do and you were taking a chance.Ìý What would you say to that?

Ìý

Holdsworth

It absolutely is a risky thing to do.Ìý Like what would I have done if the dog had been incapable of the job?Ìý I would have had to rehome her or else keep her as a pet.Ìý You really have to be prepared for failure.

Ìý

White

You have previously used the traditional Guide Dogs association, how did the dogs compare?

Ìý

Holdsworth

I’ve had wonderful dogs from Guide Dogs but this is just something special, I can’t describe it, you know, I used to walk down, say, Oxford Street or a really busy street in London with my head in the air thinking this is just – ah this is – ah we’ve made it, this is great.Ìý And every step that dog took and every obstacle she avoided and every tube station she’d find, I trained her to do that and there’s no feeling like it.

Ìý

White

Stay with us Isabel.Ìý Listening to that is Sean Dilley.Ìý Many of you will know Sean from his work as a ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ TV and Radio News reporter and you may well have followed his story of how his guide dog, Sammy, was retired from service leaving Sean without a dog and on what, as we’ve reported before, is still a very long waiting list.Ìý

Ìý

Sean, I mean, what’s your reaction to Isabel’s story?

Ìý

Dilley

I just say that even if I was a really, really good self-trained guide dog trainer there’s no way I could have the air miles and the experience, in the same way that if I needed heart surgery I wouldn’t do that myself, I would trust the people who study for three years to learn to do it and the socialisation.Ìý But that’s no sleight. I mean, Isabel, you’re much braver than me.

Ìý

White

What are the biggest problems you’re facing without a dog because you’ve talked about that at some length?

Ìý

Dilley

If I don’t have to leave my house I won’t.Ìý It’s interesting because when I’m in working environments, you know, the confidence is there but just sort of being on my own without a guide dog, who I trust with my life, has been really, really, really seriously impacting.

Ìý

White

Sean, could you have been better prepared for Sammy’s retirement?Ìý I mean, after all, all guide dog owners go into this knowing that their dog probably has a maximum working life of nine or 10 years, often less.

Ìý

Dilley

I had about 35 hours of refresher training with my long cane with the vision rehabilitation specialist, knowing that Sammy was going to retire.Ìý When we come up to March that will be six months since he retired, nine months since I went back on the list and 12 months since I began the reapplication process.Ìý What I’ve been holding on to is the fact I know that Guide Dogs are doing everything they can but it doesn’t mean that it hasn’t devastated life as I know it.

Ìý

White

Listening to all of that is John Welsman, John is the Canine Affairs Lead for the charity Guide Dogs.

Ìý

John, many people do seem to be waiting an inordinately long time for a guide dog, especially as Guide Dogs is keen to tell the public that they are life changing.Ìý It’s not surprising, is it, that people are looking around to see what the alternatives might be?

Ìý

Welsman

And more and more people are doing that.Ìý Guide Dogs is supportive of them but, as Isabel said, there are risks in doing it, there are challenges in doing it.

Ìý

White

So, let me get this clear, you’re not saying, as I thought Guide Dogs might, don’t do it?

Ìý

Welsman

No, no, we wouldn’t say don’t it but what we want people to do is recognise the inherent risk in doing it.Ìý And it’s important to say, also, Peter, that there are several charities now being set up in the UK to support people like Isabel, who if they wish to train their own assistance dog will be out there to support them through the process.

Ìý

White

We’ve heard that the waiting list is a big problem, that was what pushed Isabel into it, what is the latest position?

Ìý

Welsman

The numbers of dogs being trained are going up and up and up as we go along but it’s a long process, it’s not going to be a five-minute fix but we certainly have a strategy in place this year – 2023 – to move that along significantly.

Ìý

White

So, I mean, Isabel, when she did it, she was told at least a year, Sean has been told two years, what’s the current situation, what would somebody be told now?

Ìý

Welsman

It depends on where you live and whether there’s an appropriate dog for you.Ìý So, there’s no one answer for everybody, it’s down to the individual, down to the dogs that are available and the suitability of that dog for that individual.

Ìý

White

I mean we often hear on this programme about people who have access problems to supermarkets, with taxis, it’s probably one of the most common complaints we get.Ìý What would your position be if you were someone like Isabel who self-trained, would you have the legal backup that you would have if you got a dog trained by your organisation?

Ìý

Welsman

It’s quite a complex answer because a lot of the regulation around service provision is around qualified assistance dogs, not dogs in training.Ìý So, this is where it becomes very difficult.Ìý With an owner trained dog, where does the training stop and the fully qualified dog start?

Ìý

White

But are you saying it’s still got to be tested?

Ìý

Welsman

This is why the European standards are being undertaken at the moment, so we’ve actually got a benchmark that we can use to qualify what stage a dog’s at, when it’s in training, when it’s fully qualified and therefore its status in terms of its support for its owner.

Ìý

Holdsworth

Any decent owner trainer will jump at the chance to have their dog tested with a view to certification.

Ìý

White

I mean, Isabel, you did that, you did it for seven and a half years, would you do it again?

Ìý

Holdsworth

Absolutely, there’s no buzz like working with your own trained dog.

Ìý

White

We could go on with this debate I know.Ìý Isabel Holdsworth, John Welsman, Sean Dilley, thank you all very much indeed.Ìý And, of course, we’d like to know your comments and experiences please.

Ìý

Now that mystery sport again.Ìý Well, of course, it’s ice hockey isn’t it, it’s obvious.Ìý And if you think that it’s a pretty fast sport, played on ice, well you’re right but past experience tells us there are few things blind people won’t have a go at when it comes to sport.Ìý So, when we heard of an event taking place in Oxford last week which invited blind and partially sighted people to turn up and have a go at ice hockey we wanted to know more.

Ìý

Here’s just what a few of those who took part and took up the challenge had to say.

Ìý

Vox pop

It wasn’t as scary as I thought it was going to be.Ìý There were sighted people there and non-sighted but you didn’t really know who was who because everyone was just helping each other, which was lovely.

Ìý

I skated when I was younger and then hadn’t skated since then.Ìý I felt like I learnt again.

Ìý

I’d been on the ice before but I’ve never done ice hockey before.Ìý Luckily, I didn’t run into anybody, so that was a good start.Ìý Once you get your confidence up and get those skating legs back, it’s really, really good fun.

Ìý

Things like this are brilliant.Ìý If they could be not just in main cities, as well, that would be really good.

Ìý

What I really enjoyed, actually, is the fact that it’s inclusive – everybody plays together.Ìý And the sound of the puck is the one that really helps.

Ìý

I suppose just trying a new sport that I hadn’t tried before.Ìý I thought ice hockey, I’ll give that a go.

Ìý

Absolutely petrifying but also, so much fun.

Ìý

Once I built the confidence up it was great.

Ìý

I’d definitely give it another go, yeah.

Ìý

Without a doubt I would come again.

Ìý

White

A lot of enthusiasm there generated by the day at Oxford.Ìý That’s going to be music to the ears of the man who’s the driving force behind this project – Nathan Tree.

Ìý

Nathan, first of all, how did your own involvement with ice hockey start?

Ìý

Tree

I grew up playing ice hockey and roller hockey and I started losing my vision when I was 19.Ìý It started to become a point where I couldn’t see what I was doing anymore around the age of 23.Ìý And I quit.Ìý Then around 2017 I started dating an ice hockey player and she said to me – I’m just going to Google it.Ìý Turned out blind ice hockey existed in Canada and the US.Ìý We got in touch with them and she said – let’s go.Ìý We flew out three months later.Ìý I became the first European blind ice hockey player to go and compete in the Canadian national championships.

Ìý

White

And that had come as a surprise to you because, obviously, you did think, when you quit, that that was it?

Ìý

Tree

I think someone had mentioned the blind hockey to me before but with my vision loss I wasn’t identifying as a blind person, so I was like that can’t be for me.Ìý And it turns out that it really is for me.

Ìý

White

Now, my image of ice hockey is of a very fast game, as played by sighted people, so what adaptations have to be made for it to be playable by visually impaired people?

Ìý

Tree

Well, people’s imagination of it is that it’s a contact sport.Ìý It is still a contact sport but there’s no checking – so checking is purposefully trying to knock people over.Ìý We still skate into each other, we still push each other around but it’s not quite as violent.Ìý People have seen fighting in ice hockey, that is completely banned.Ìý In blind sport rules it’s played with a mixture of B1s, B2s and B3s, so from no vision to less than 10%.Ìý All goalies are B1s, so they play with no vision and a blindfold on.Ìý The goal is three foot by six foot, instead of four foot by six foot, to give them more of a chance.Ìý And then all the other players are B2 and B3s, some B1 players might play, so they might play with no vision at all.Ìý The puck in regular ice hockey is about the size of a biscuit and is made of rubber.Ìý Our one is scaled up, I think, four times, it’s made of steel, it’s hollow and has ball bearings in it and it sounds more like a cow bell.Ìý So, you can track that, for those that have vision they can see a bit more of it, for those that don’t they can hear it as well.

Ìý

Actuality – ice hockey

This puck much bigger, made of metal, hurts quite a lot and we’re aiming to do is just with our sticks we just aim to move it around, okay, so you can feel it on your stick, we’re going to move left or right, forwards and backwards [indistinct words]…

Ìý

White

In order for that to make sense, I believe there are rules about when you can shoot, so people actually had time to track where the ball is.

Ìý

Tree

Yes.Ìý So, there are three zones in ice hockey.Ìý You have the attacking zone.Ìý When you’re in there you have to make a clean pass to another player, so that the goalie has a chance to hear the puck moving, at which point a buzzer goes, that tells the goalie a shot is coming soon and that gives the goalie a chance to make the save. ÌýCommunication is super important.Ìý I always say that even in sighted ice hockey it’s just as important, we have 360 degree hearing and no one can see 360 degrees.Ìý We bang our sticks to tell people this is where I want the puck to come to but we also shout and scream a lot, we bang on the boards, we make a lot of noise just to make sure people know where to send the puck and what to do.

Ìý

White

Now you were supported in this event at Oxford by Hillary Scanlon.Ìý Now Hillary is an experienced visually impaired player from Canada – which is sort of the home of ice hockey in a way – and here are some of her thoughts.

Ìý

Scanlon

Oxford is a magical place in a lot of ways, it’s the only university in the world that has a blind ice hockey programme.Ìý We need a GB national team asap.Ìý Today showed a lot of promise for that.Ìý I know that we’re still in the beginning stages but it’s exciting to see that grass roots development happening.Ìý There is a lot of skill on the ice today.Ìý I think that a lot of the players may be even underestimated themselves and their skill level.Ìý So, it’s definitely within reach but that’s definitely where I would like to see it go.Ìý And really trying to get more women involved in the game.Ìý This is clearly a sport that people have fun playing, even if it’s their first time trying it.Ìý Lots of great comments happening in the change room.Ìý And as long as people come away either having fun or saying I want to come back and do this next time, that’s all that matters.

Ìý

White

Now Hillary is sounding super confident Nathan, but I mean what strikes me is a lot of the people who came are newcomers to it, I mean you have to be able to ice skate to start with, surely?

Ìý

Tree

Yes, you do but that is part of what we include in our events, is teaching people to ice skate.Ìý And, you know, we put an ice hockey stick in your hand that you can also use as a cane.

Ìý

White

Oh, so you could kind of use it to walk with on the ice?

Ìý

Tree

More to navigate actually.Ìý So, the stick finds the boards before you do.

Ìý

White

Now Hillary says we need to build a national team as soon as possible, that’s not running before you can walk is it or before you can skate, I mean what needs to happen to make that a reality?

Ìý

Tree

We need to get as many people just trying it and seeing who will commit to playing and so we’re just trying to build opportunities and give people the idea that they can play something that might have been too difficult in the past.

Ìý

White

And I think when this goes out on In Touch you’ll either be in Canada or you’ll just have come back, can you just explain what that’s about?

Ìý

Tree

Yeah, so I’ve been fortunate enough to be invited to play in something called the Carnegie Cup, which is an inaugural tournament of elite blind ice hockey players to build ideally a blind ice hockey league in North America.Ìý So, I’ll be flying out tomorrow and it’s a series of three games, which are going to be live streamed on Canadian Blind Hockey’s website with live commentary, so you’ll have your audio description as well.Ìý And that’s really the highest level that the game has ever had.Ìý I’m fortunate enough to be in the top 28 players in the world right now.

Ìý

White

I mean that is incredible really, the amount of strength.Ìý Can you see that happening with a GB team?

Ìý

Tree

That is my dream.Ìý Yes, I can because once I get people playing they love it, they keep coming back for more.

Ìý

White

Hillary makes one other important point about the involvement of women in the sport.Ìý How does that work?Ìý Must teams be made up solely of men or women or can they be mixed?

Ìý

Tree

Currently, it’s a mix gender sport.Ìý However, some of the males in it are a bit more physical and I think, actually, from my experience of just general ice hockey a women’s only game actually involves a slightly different skill and it works strategically less brutish, I think, so I think it would be a great way to involve more women in the sport and more participation as well.Ìý They had the first women’s summit in Canada last year and they’ll be having another one this year.Ìý And it’s great to involve more women in a sport where they’re generally under-represented.

Ìý

White

One interesting thing – you invited people to bring along family and friends.Ìý What was the idea behind that?

Ìý

Tree

So, I believe sport’s about community and I want family members to be able to buy in and understand what the participants are putting themselves in for so they understand when it’s – I’ve got to travel for this – or – there’s a late night here – or – expensive equipment, they understand what that’s for and can buy into it.Ìý But, also, I want people to have fun with the people around them, so that they go back and they’re talking about it with the people they did it with, it just helps break down those barriers to participating in a new sport.

Ìý

White

We’ve talked about how far can this go, I mean, is it a Paralympic sport and if it is could GB have a Paralympic team?

Ìý

Tree

So, currently, there are only two national teams, there’s a [indistinct words] we need eight before we can apply to be a Paralympic sport.Ìý That is the goal, I would love to be a Paralympian.Ìý Please come and help me to do that, if anyone wants to.

Ìý

White

Well, I’m sure you’ve contributed to the enthusiasm.Ìý Nathan Tree, thank you very much indeed.

Ìý

And our thanks to Clodagh Stenson for gathering some of the material for us.Ìý We’ll keep in touch with that, to see how it’s going.

Ìý

And that’s it for today but, as usual, we want your reactions to anything you’ve heard or indeed your views on anything you think we ought to be covering.Ìý Email intouch@bbc.co.uk, leave your voice messages on 0161 8361338 or you can go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch from where you can download tonight’s and previous editions of the programme.

Ìý

From me, Peter White, this week’s producer Fern Lulham and studio managers Simon Highfield and Owain Williams, goodbye.

Ìý