成人快手

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IN TOUCH 鈥� The RNIB's Braille Library

TX:听 06.09.2022听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 BETH HEMMINGS

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White

Good evening. 听Ask sighted people what images come into their mind when they think about blindness and it鈥檚 a pretty fair bet that those that will be right up at the top of the list are guide dogs, white canes and braille.听 But, increasingly, braille, the method some blind people use to read by touch and the method I鈥檓 using to read this script now, has been perceived to be under threat.听 Among the reasons 鈥� the growth of synthetic speech technology to read books and documents, falling numbers who learn braille, the bulk of braille books which creates storage and curating problems and a vaguer idea that somehow braille, especially for younger people, is just not cool.听 So, when, 18 months ago, the RNIB introduced what felt like radical changes to its braille library services, including smaller multi-volume books which rather than returning you threw away when read, alarm bells began to ring and they鈥檙e still ringing.听 Listeners are telling us they want a review of how the new system is working and they told us about some of the problems they鈥檝e encountered with the new set up.

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Well, we鈥檒l be hearing from some of them in a moment but I want to bring in, first, Dave Williams, who鈥檚 the RNIB鈥檚 Customer Experience Manager and also chair of the Braillists Foundation, which aims to promote braille and its use.

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Dave Williams, first of all, just remind us why was it decided that these changes were necessary?

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Williams

Hello.听 We had a situation at RNIB where we had a large warehouse of braille books which frankly were decaying, many of the books were in a poor state of disrepair.听 We were also getting feedback from readers that the books were quite large and difficult to handle, difficult to fit in schoolbags.听 And so during the pandemic, of course, we were all told about the risk of transmission of the virus so that accelerated plans to go to a braille on demand service.听 So, now, as you say, books are sent out to readers, they don鈥檛 need to be returned, you can keep them for as long as you like, you can, of course, share them with a friend or you can recycle them with your other paper waste.

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White

Okay, we鈥檒l come on specifically to the issue of the kind of formatting of the books.听 I鈥檓 just interested, before we move to some of the consumers, how much did you actually discuss this with blind people, how much research was done to find out how this would go down?

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Williams

So, research had been going on for quite a long time.听 Talking to people at RNIB I understand that conversations about the future of the braille library go back to 2017.听 RNIB looked around the world at what our sister organisations were doing in other braille lending libraries, thinking about what is the future, how can we be more sustainable, how can we actually scale up the braille that鈥檚 available for readers and, of course, with the increasing adoption of electronic braille, how might we offer that way as well.

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White

Okay.听 Now, one of those people who contacted us is Ailsa Fairley from Nottingham.听 Ailsa, before you explain the problems that you鈥檝e had, just tell us what kind of a braille reader you are and how you used to use the 鈥� well both the RNIB library and the National Library Service before those changes took place.

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Fairley

I guess the starting point for me is I often say that learning to read braille was the best thing the RNIB ever taught me.听 And before the library changed, I would describe myself as a avid reader 鈥� I still am an avid reader if I have the books.听 So, in the old system you could have a maximum of six titles, which I always had that maximum because that was the quantity of reading that I did.听 Reading braille books is a major part of my lifestyle, my wellbeing, I actually can鈥檛 put into words how important it is to me.听 With the new system, because I don鈥檛 have access to electronic methods, I need the hard copy.

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White

So, what was it that prompted you to contact us?

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Fairley

Well, to start with, there鈥檚 going to be hiccups, there鈥檚 going to be teething problems, of course and eventually, halleluiah, it settled down into quite a steady rhythm.听 I was getting one title a week.听 I was conscious of reading very, very slowly.听 Then round about March the whole thing ground to a halt.听 The library staff on the telephones were very helpful, informed me that it was because they had installed some sort of new computer system.听 I thought 鈥� oh well, after about a week it might 鈥� it鈥檒l be up and running again but it wasn鈥檛 and it went on and on for several weeks when nothing was coming out at all.听 At one point, I clocked that I had books delivered on 22nd July, I didn鈥檛 get anything again until the 17th August and then the next gap was through to the 2nd September, which was just last Friday.

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White

Okay, we鈥檒l come back to some of the other issues but Dave Williams, why has Ailsa and some other people we鈥檝e heard from, had this problem?

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Williams

Well, firstly, Ailsa, I鈥檓 a braille reader too and I want to apologise because that鈥檚 not the experience we would want you to have.听 I read the bedtime story with my son, braille鈥檚 very important to me, you heard in the introduction I鈥檓 chair of the Braillists Foundation, we help people get started with learning braille, so this is absolutely something that I think about every day and we do need to make it better.听 You鈥檙e right, there were IT issues.听 There was also a hardware failure, one of our big industrial embossers went offline for a bit and we had several false dawns with that, with replacement parts and people who were going to fix it.听 We had people off with covid.听 It鈥檚 just a long catalogue of things which reduced our capacity significantly.听 We have sent out, I think, about 1300 books since April, even with the reduced capacity but I am glad to report that things are gradually coming back online, the embosser is fixed and the IT issues, the software problems, that you alluded to are resolved, as I understand it, so hopefully we are now back up to full strength.

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White

I should say at this point, Dave, Ailsa is not alone, as you鈥檒l obviously understand.听 Susan Buckingham got in touch with us, she says:

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Buckingham

I have a book ordered but there鈥檚 still no sign of it.听 I have spoken to the very nice people at the RNIB library but it鈥檚 not their problem.听 They can鈥檛 even send me one of the old books because they have, I understand, been given away to schools etc.听 Perhaps it would have been a good idea to keep some back until a new scheme was up and running efficiently.听 I鈥檝e had a book for some time but I鈥檝e now finished reading it twice and I feel bereft without a new book of my choosing to pick up instead.

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White

Well, I have to say the day after Susan emailed us, she did get a braille book in a format she was pleased with.听 And Mark Taylor has recently tweeted that he鈥檚 finished the braille books the RNIB last sent him and in an email from the RNIB he was told 鈥� we have a delay getting the braille books sent out at the moment, so it鈥檒l be a few weeks before we鈥檙e able to send your next book.

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I mean, what about that?听 Ailsa was assured, initially, that she would never be without a book, that鈥檚 not happened.

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Williams

It鈥檚 frustrating, I absolutely agree and I certainly wouldn鈥檛 want to find myself in that situation.听 The service was stress tested.听 But actually, our braille library membership, I鈥檓 glad to say, has increased by about 20% since we introduced the on-demand service.听 We didn鈥檛 anticipate that increase, however, I would extend that same apology to Mark and to Susan that obviously we don鈥檛 want you to be without books and, of course, the good news now is you haven鈥檛 got that maximum of six titles, that you mentioned earlier Ailsa, that you can keep as many books as you鈥檝e got space for.

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White

Yeah but that鈥檚 no good if you鈥檝e only got one book that鈥檚 actually arrived.听 I want to ask you about that point about existing older books because that seemed to me a fair point that Susan was making.听 What happened to all those older books?

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Williams

So, there was an opportunity for braille library members to request those books to keep and I know several blind people who did that.听 Books were also offered to partner organisations around the world who wanted those.听 But they can be produced as and when they鈥檙e needed and obviously that does rely on the system working which, you鈥檙e absolutely right to highlight, it hasn鈥檛 been and we鈥檙e glad that it is now.

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White

Okay.听 So, that鈥檚 the nuts and bolts of the scheme and the problems, to some extent but someone else who got in touch with us and who also wrote to the trustees of the RNIB with his reservations is Tim Pennick.听 Now Tim, you were concerned from the start about the concept and what felt to you as the loss of its function as a lending library, can you explain what you meant by that?

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Pennick

Absolutely.听 I mean, as Dave鈥檚 explained, the underlying concept is that it is no more a library, basically it鈥檚 not possible to return books, it鈥檚 not just that you don鈥檛 have to, it鈥檚 no longer possible to return books.听 So, suddenly, all the old books were either destroyed or handed on to somebody else.听 So, basically, my initial shock really was the incredible waste of paper.听 The new system works entirely on when you鈥檝e finished with a book you stick it in the recycling.听 Now even if you recycle it, we鈥檙e always told that recycling is the third option, reuse comes before recycling and if you can reduce comes before that.听 One of the problems with the system that I encountered immediately is that I don鈥檛 read a regular amount of braille books, I can never know from one week to the next how many I鈥檓 going to read.听 The system basically was set up originally so the RNIB would have some sort of algorithm to understand how often you would need a book.听 If that doesn鈥檛 work you鈥檙e either short of books or you鈥檝e got a huge number of books all arrived at the same time.听 Dave was saying, just now, if you want a book you can ask for it to be produced but, basically, it doesn鈥檛 happen like that.听 The best you can do is if it鈥檚 already on file, if the computer readable edition of the book exists, it takes, in my experience, a couple of weeks to be run off.听 Under the old system, if the book existed in braille and if it was in the library, they could stick in the post the next day.

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I鈥檝e got another list 鈥� I鈥檝e got a list鈥�

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White

Well, just one more quickly, we should then bring Dave Williams back on this.听 What about the actual formatting of the books themselves because you were bothered about that?

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Pennick

Yeah absolutely.听 Firstly, each braille volume, as it used to exist, has now effectively been divided into two small pamphlets.听 One of the good things about them is that the braille has to be nice and crisp, that is true but you then have an immense number of these small pamphlets.听 Obviously, the idea, originally, was based on the idea that braille magazines arrive as a single pamphlet or two pamphlets and can be slipped through the letterbox in your front door and that鈥檚 a great idea.听 But when you then imagine a book of say 28 of these little pamphlets coming through the door, they can be all over your hall, somebody mentioned that they鈥檙e actually a slipping hazard.

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White

And you鈥檝e had problems with delivery as well, haven鈥檛 you?

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Pennick

We yes, absolutely.听 People are 鈥� are saying that volumes are getting lost in the post.听 What really happens, in effect, is that the Post Office stick them together with elastic bands, so that you end up either the postman bangs on the door and hands you a huge stack of these things all strapped together with a band or they actually deliver them in plastic crates, which again they need to knock on your door to tell you they鈥檙e there.

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White

Just before I go back to Dave on this, let me just bring Ailsa in.听 Have you had 28 volumes of Jane Eyre coming through your letterbox?

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Fairley

Not Jane Eyre but at the moment there鈥檚 no danger of getting more than one title but I noticed that Dave said that in his opinion the library was back to normal.听 This morning I was told to be cautious and it could be two weeks.听 When this decision was made, we were told, I believe I heard it on the In Touch programme, that we would still be receiving a similar service, that there would be no shortage.

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White

Well, Dave鈥檚 apologised for the situation and has told us it鈥檚 going to improve.听 Dave Williams, can we just talk about the formatting of these books?听 I saw that Jane Eyre, which used to be in four volumes when I was young, is now coming in at 28 鈥� is that really the best way to do this?

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Williams

Well, I think we can all agree that we want braille to be more accessible, we want braille that鈥檚 easier to store and that鈥檚 easier to kind of carry around and it鈥檚 easy to handle.听 My nephew, who鈥檚 10 years old, I remember when he got his first braille book and it was nearly as big as he was and so much smaller volumes are easier for children and for older people.听 And, of course, alongside the hard copy there鈥檚 the sort of electronic offer as well, the library鈥檚 given away hundreds of electronic braille readers.听 But on the hard copy, I鈥檓 absolutely keen to hear this feedback and I understand the frustrations.听 Just to clarify, I don鈥檛 think I said that the library was back to normal, I think I said the capacity was back up to full strength, so, obviously, there is going to be a backlog to get through.听 So, it may take a little while for things to get to, sort of, quotes 鈥渘ormal鈥�.听 The existing collection was always going to be constrained by the number of volumes and if you asked for a book that somebody else had borrowed and we only had that copy then you would be experiencing delays in any case.听 So, we鈥檝e taken a lot of time looking at this, I, again, reiterate the apologies for the systemic issues we鈥檝e had this year but I鈥檓 hoping that for many years into the future we鈥檒l have a braille service that can grow to meet the demands of the future.

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White

Can I just get you to answer Tim鈥檚 point about the difficulty in triggering a particular request at a particular time when you want it, rather than getting a sort of drip feed of books, do you see what he means by that?

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Williams

I do, I do and I think that鈥檚 part of the IT issue that Ailsa described earlier.听 So, I think you can request specific titles now.

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White

I mean can you ring up and ask for a book?听 Which is what Ailsa has done in the past, it鈥檚 what I鈥檝e done in the past.听 Can you just say 鈥� I don鈥檛 want a drip feed, I want this book, this week or as soon as you can deliver it to me?

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Williams

Yes.

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White

You can?

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Williams

Yeah.

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White

Tim Pennick.

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Pennick

Sorry, can I just jump in there?听 The lead time, as has been explained to me by the people on the help desk, even if it鈥檚 working properly is a couple of weeks, there鈥檚 no way that you can just ring up and say 鈥� can I have a book tomorrow 鈥� because basically if you were desperate for a book under the old system you would take the books that were available, there鈥檚 no way of doing that now.

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White

Okay.听 I want to ask Dave Williams a broader fundamental question.听 The fear is being expressed Dave, that what is actually happening here is the running down of braille book provision because of the curation, storing and production costs, so that it can be argued then that there isn鈥檛 sufficient demand for braille.听 What do you say to that because people are saying that?

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Williams

Well, as you know, braille was the reason RNIB was originally established and the braille library is a core part of RNIB still.听 So, there鈥檚 absolutely no suggestion that braille is going away, quite the opposite in fact, we want to grow the library so that there is more choice, that there are more books available for more readers, so you haven鈥檛 got a limit of six titles or if the book is out of the library that you can鈥檛 have it.听 And we want to overcome those issues and have a braille service that will grow and expand in the future.

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White

But for many years now the RNIB has been campaigning for a huge increase in the books available for blind people to read.听 Now with digital developments over the last few years, for people with digital skills that is beginning to be possible but what about people like Ailsa who depend on the traditional braille book for their reading because the worry is for them that rather than many more books there may be many less.

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Williams

So, they鈥檙e happening in parallel.听 So, as we grow the digital collection that also benefits the hard copy collection as well, so you can have an SD card with thousands of braille books on it or you can choose from any of those books and have them in hard copy.

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White

Okay.听 Well, then very quickly, I want to end with Tim and Ailsa.听 Ailsa, first of all, what do you want to see?听 It鈥檚 unlikely that we鈥檙e going to go back to where we were.

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Fairley

I want a sense of who鈥檚 actually taking responsibility for making sure that this new system, the computer system, the supply of paper, the staples, all that stuff happens so that I鈥檓 not in a situation where if I鈥檓 very, very lucky I get a book every fortnight.

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White

Okay, that鈥檚 clear and to the point.听 And Tim Pennick, I know you want to see lots of things but what is the most important of them?

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Pennick

I would like to see a drains up review on where we are now and where we can get to for the benefit of the users.听 Even it includes maybe keeping some 鈥� saving some books that are popular at the moment, maybe some storage facilities.

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White

Right.听 Tim Pennick, Ailsa Fairley and Dave Williams thank you all very much indeed.听 And, of course, we鈥檇 like to hear your comments about how the braille library is operating for you.听 You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk, you can leave voice messages on 0161 8361338.

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That鈥檚 all for today.听 From me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings, our guests and studio managers, Simon Highfield and Amy Brennan, goodbye.

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