³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ

Downloaded from www.bbc.co.uk/radio4

Ìý

THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.Ìý BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

Ìý

Ìý

IN TOUCH – Matchday Mayhem; The Great Outdoors

TX:Ìý 31.05.2022Ìý 2040-2100

PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

Ìý

PRODUCER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý BETH HEMMINGS

Ìý

Ìý

White

Good evening.Ìý Later in the programme, the great outdoors – how to get the best from it with poor sight or none, whether it’s tending your garden or a walk in the woods.

Ìý

But first, the story which dominated the news over the weekend – the mayhem which surrounded what should have been a great sporting occasion but turned into a nightmare for many who were there.

Ìý

Clip

The issue which I saw was they were checking tickets on the outer perimeter and there was just too many bodies there – there were thousands of fans, all in a bottleneck and they weren’t checking the tickets quickly enough, you know, there weren’t enough bodies checking the tickets.Ìý And then there was mayhem, there were people without tickets who were turning back and coming through the crowd, then there were people getting angry – a lot of pushing and shoving.Ìý And it became an issue.

Ìý

White

Chris Sutton describing the scenes outside the Stade de France in Paris as Liverpool prepared to meet Real Madrid to decide the European Champions Cup.Ìý While as I listened to that on 5 Live I was wondering what it would be like to be caught up in that as a blind person.Ìý I don’t need to wonder any longer.Ìý Liverpool fans Dave Williams and Aj Ahmed were there and they’ve contacted us about their experience.

Ìý

Dave, just explain, briefly, what happened to you.

Ìý

Williams

So, as sports fans obviously we’re well used to big crowds.Ìý So, we arrived at the stadium at around half past six, twenty to seven, at which point the build up of crowds really got to very uncomfortable levels – people pressed against your back, you were kind of sandwiched between people.Ìý But, at that point, I think we thought well there’s still enough time here to get in, even though it was chaotic and we were very squashed, we managed to get around to our designated gate, that was stated on the ticket – Gate Z – we weren’t able to get in there.Ìý It began to feel really unsafe and the only way for us to get out of that situation was to escape by climbing over a fence.Ìý We then tried to use a disabled entrance and it was at that point that I became aware that my friend – Aj – you’re going to hear from in a moment – he started coughing and somebody said it’s tear gas and I managed to get my scarf up and around my face to protect myself.Ìý We eventually heard, via social media, because there were no public announcement really telling the crowd what was going on, we heard via social media that the kick-off had been delayed.Ìý Eventually we gained access to the stadium, I think, at about twenty past nine, when we got to our seats, everyone was really quite shell shocked, the whole thing just kind of fell apart really, what was supposed to be an amazing day out was – just ended up being a nightmare.

Ìý

White

Aj, Dave just mentioned that you were pepper sprayed there, I mean when did you realise what had happened, did you have the faintest idea what it was?

Ìý

Ahmed

I mean I didn’t really know what it was.Ìý We were in the disabled bit because the entrance to Z was absolutely packed so we thought we’d try the disabled entrance because it looked a little bit less chaotic.Ìý I remember being behind a load of wheelchairs, I was slightly in front of Dave, and next minute I just started coughing and sneezing, it just got right down me throat.Ìý I just turned to a mate and what’s that and he said he was tear gas.Ìý Well by that time it was a bit too late, so I couldn’t put me scarf over me and it just affected me for quite some minutes, to be honest.

Ìý

White

And Aj, did any of the authorities – the police, the stewards, the officials – take account of the fact that you couldn’t see and you were with someone else who couldn’t see?

Ìý

Ahmed

Not at all, I mean we both had our canes where we bottlenecked into an area, where it was a really, really tight crush, there was police on hand just next to the fences, everyone was sort of pleading with them – look there’s kids here, these two lads are blind can you do something, they just didn’t want to know.Ìý And even when I was getting helped to climb over the fence, it was quite a high fence and Dave still being helped and in the end a couple of Liverpool fans had to break down the fence to allow Dave to pass through and just escape that crush.

Ìý

White

Dave, what was the scariest moment?

Ìý

Williams

I think the moment that Aj just described.Ìý I had people pressed up against the back of me, the front of me and, of course, that’s quite triggering Peter, all our minds go back, obviously, to the Leppings Lane in 1989 and so you do worry at that point that something like that could happen.Ìý I think in that moment, though, you’re sort of numb and you don’t realise the full horror of it until afterwards and it was when I got to my seat and I was receiving messages from home, from friends and family members, asking are you okay, I sort of thought oh my god, I might not have been, you know.

Ìý

White

And Aj, I gather you go to – even more regularly than Dave, I mean I go to football a lot as well, I have not often felt threatened, I just wonder how unusual this circumstance was for you?

Ìý

Ahmed

It was highly unusual.Ìý I mean I’ve been going over 25 years, I’ve been a season ticket holder both home and away and I’ve never experienced anything like that, it’s probably the most sort of horrific experience, as a football fan, that I’ve had to endure.Ìý Even just going back to Dave’s point, about feeling numb and I can certainly echo those sentiments because I actually even remember when we actually got out over the fences and we were heading towards [indistinct word] I remember one lad saying to us and saying – it’s not worth it lads, it’s not worth it, don’t go in there.Ìý But, again, we were quite numb by now but you know we need to get into the game and it’s only now, when you look back and you just realise what you’ve gone through and what he must have seen and maybe been through, even through Hillsborough and he was right, it wasn’t worth it.

Ìý

Williams

We’d paid extra so that we could go on the day and travel back in time for the parade to celebrate the other cups that Liverpool had won this season and we’d just got back and I think both of us just felt so numb that we just decided, do you know what, we’re not going to go to that parade and we’d shared the cost of a taxi back from Liverpool to Worcester, just because we needed a bit of normality.

Ìý

White

And after all that, I think you didn’t even get a commentary, did you?

Ìý

Ahmed

No, we didn’t.

Ìý

Williams

No, no, no.Ìý We asked, as we went in, didn’t we, and then we asked again at half time and they just said – oh, we’ll try and find out – and there was absolutely nothing forthcoming.Ìý And I’m aware that that also happened for other blind fans who were there on the evening and, of course, this is the biggest game in club football, so why it’s so difficult to make that available is beyond me.Ìý And we were both in Kiev in 2018 and we had commentary actually on FM, which meant we could use our own radios, which would have been helpful, in terms of communicating safety information but didn’t take an FM radio because it wasn’t on FM, it was on the designated radios that we didn’t receive.

Ìý

White

Well, commiserations lads, not only on the awful things that happened to you but also on the result as well but thanks for coming on to tell In Touch about it.

Ìý

Now, I’ve a friend who told me that after 12 years living in his current house, he still wasn’t sure of the way around his garden.Ìý Now this is a rather extreme example but it does suggest that the great outdoors can be a bit of a challenge, especially if you’re totally blind.Ìý With the exception of birds and bees, much of nature is pretty quiet and a lot of its appeal, to those who love it, gets expressed in terms of its visual beauty – colour, construction and so on.Ìý Not all blind people feel like this, this is Lord Blunkett, explaining to me in his beloved Peak District why he is drawn to wide open spaces.

Ìý

Blunkett

I love being outside because there are always sounds, there are always smells, there are always natural elements that actually make life worthwhile.Ìý And quite often I drive people mad by saying – I’m just going to pop out – because, of course, they’re looking out of windows and they’re seeing birds and they’re seeing vegetation and they’re seeing what’s going on.Ìý And the way you can feel it and experience it is being outside.

Ìý

White

Lord Blunkett, as we strolled down a country lane.

Ìý

Well, today, we’re looking at ways in which more blind and partially sighted people could get the same enjoyment out of flora and fauna and get to appreciate what the poets like to call ‘nature’s bounty’.Ìý And not just plants and trees but wildlife as well.Ìý One man who is very much dedicated to this idea is blind gardener Andrew Hesser.Ìý He’s on the line now but, first, this is Andrew in his Falmouth garden describing one of his favourite gardening tasks when he was featured on ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ 2’s Gardeners’ World.

Ìý

Clip – Gardeners’ World

This is my pride and joy – the broad beans.Ìý When they first germinate and start growing, when they’re 15 centimetres tall, the stems are round and then I can instantly know, when I’m weeding, which is a broad bean and which isn’t because of the shape of the stems.Ìý They’ve got the texture of the stems which evolves as the plants grow and then you’ve got the aroma and it’s a kind of very, very earthy not very sweet smell but I’m just intoxicated by it.Ìý And again, when I’m weeding, if I’m not sure if it’s a weed or a young broad bean plant, just brush my hand on the foliage and smell it and it’s just lovely.

Ìý

White

That was Andrew with Toby Buckland on Gardeners’ World.

Ìý

Andrew, I’m not one of the world’s greatest gardeners, it has to be admitted, but you’ve struck a chord with me – I love broad beans.Ìý Are you more of a veg man or a flowers man as well?

Ìý

Hesser

Mostly veg but in the last sort of 18 months I’ve started exploring because I come from the basis of what is going to stimulate my senses.Ìý Because I can’t see hundreds of types of different flowers, I focus on texture and aromas.

Ìý

White

That’s why I asked you that because those poets, I was talking about, often concentrate on the beauty of flowers and I just wondered what you get from them.

Ìý

Hesser

Let’s think of some examples.Ìý Last year I started putting in tulips, by May they were about 30 centimetres high and I just like feeling the stem, the stems are nice and smooth and then the sloppy leaves up to the shape of the bulbs really.Ìý So, it’s a very tactile experience.Ìý And then hydrangeas because hydrangeas are like small footballs, as they go over in the autumn, they all crisp up, so you’ve got like a very large crispy textured thing really.

Ìý

White

I mean you lost your sight; you could see as a child and you’ve lost sight since, and I’m wondering how you adapted to that situation because I know that you gave up gardening at one point didn’t you?

Ìý

Hesser

Yes, I did, I wasn’t really much of a gardener before I lost my sight, I sort of dabbled and I sort of struggled, when I did lose my sight, to kind of get into a bit of gardening.Ìý But I think I was treating it as if it was like a sighted experience and it was a chore, you know that was gardening to me.Ìý But then in the last sort of four years, I suddenly realised that I don’t need to go out into the countryside all the time, sometimes it can be daunting and you can get lost and there are no tactile maps around but in the garden I thought well I can just grow a plant and tend it and look after it and then that’s how I hit on growing loads and loads and loads of broad bean plants and it’s like walking out in the countryside, walking through the rows of those.Ìý And I don’t look upon it as gardening really, I look at it as growing plants and that’s where I start.

Ìý

White

It was the whole business of getting started that I wanted to ask you about.Ìý What would you say to people who’d like to have a go, who are listening to this, but just don’t know where to begin?

Ìý

Hesser

Beans are a good place to start but you can just start with a small number of plants, that’s the best way to do it and choose some seeds that are relatively large.Ìý People might well say – oh I fancy doing lettuce and carrots and things – but I find those seeds that you get hundreds and hundreds of tiny seeds in a packet and they can be a right fiddle and then you go and spill them over the table top and then you get frustrated.Ìý So, start with larger seeds.Ìý I mean the ultimate is the beans – the broad beans seeds are massive.Ìý So, I never sow anything directly into the garden either, I always put things into tiny pots and that enables me to keep a track of them, to label them, to keep them watered.

Ìý

White

Well, when it comes to actually planting the seeds, you’re not adverse to using the latest technology.

Ìý

Hesser

I’m interested today in the runner bean packets and there are two tiny little packets, which must be the lavender, hundreds of lavender seeds and a salad crop.Ìý I’m now going to use Supersense to differentiate between these two types.

Ìý

Supersense app

I’m reading text.Ìý Please point your camera to a text.Ìý Runner Bean Armstrong, 45 seeds.

Ìý

Hesser

Okay, now that we’ve scanned the label, I can go to the top of the WayAround screen and confirm what’s written on that label but more interesting if I swipe right twice, then we get to edit, where I can add or delete more information.

Ìý

WayAround app

Create way tag.Ìý Description.

Ìý

Hesser

Now I could go back to either of those two labels that I’ve written and add more information.Ìý You can use voice input and more recently I’ve got a Bluetooth braille keyboard and I’ve been entering braille into that edit box to make my labels.

Ìý

White

So, what did you do before apps came along Andrew?

Ìý

Hesser

Yeah, relied on my memory mostly.Ìý I found labelling and being able to read my seed packets so liberating and such an important boost to my mental health really due to the independence it gives me.Ìý Because I was actually using two apps there – one to read the seed packet, so it’s a scanner and then the other one is a labelling app. Ìý

Ìý

White

Of course, this is all quite esoteric in a way but there’s a lot of physical labour, isn’t there, involved and quite a lot of tricky tasks to perform – climbing up, lopping things off – are you happy with all of that?

Ìý

Hesser

Yeah, I mean my – my appearance on Gardeners’ World is up on iPlayer for the rest of the year and in there I sort of show how I use canes and paving slabs around the garden.Ìý So, there are lots of different tricks and techniques, so don’t be scared of just whacking a cane in somewhere to mark the end of a row.Ìý And I don’t use low canes I use tall ones, just reach out me arm and go I know where that cane is, so, I just step to the left and I’m not going to step on any precious plants.

Ìý

Can I talk a little bit about some of the things that haven’t gone quite so successfully?Ìý

Ìý

White

Well, tell me about some of your disasters if you want to.

Ìý

Hesser

Well, one is digging a massive hole to put quite a sizeable tree root ball in and I’d finished digging it, put my spade down, stepped back and fell in it.

Ìý

White

Andrew, you’re keen on introducing other blind people, not just to gardening but to enjoying the countryside generally, aren’t you?

Ìý

Hesser

Yeah.Ìý I heard about a project called Sensing Nature.Ìý This was about four or five years ago.Ìý And they were looking for participants and we ended up going on a conference and meeting other visually impaired people.Ìý We were sort of swapping stories about how difficult it is and how there’s quite a lack of opportunities to learn about nature and explore nature due to access and lack of information.Ìý

Ìý

White

Let’s explore this a bit more because I want to bring in another guest who’s dedicated himself to this idea of involving other visually impaired people in all aspects of enjoying the natural world – Andy Shipley has a long-term background in projects which promote sustainability.Ìý For example, he worked on aiming to make the 2012 Olympics and Paralympics the most sustainable ever.

Ìý

Andy, just tell me a bit more about this project – Sensing Nature – and some of the projects which have grown out of it.

Ìý

Shipley

The Nature Sense work that I run, which is this idea of bringing everybody into contact with nature through their non-visual senses, really started back in 2014.Ìý But I had a call from Dr Sarah Bell at Exeter University to talk about her project Sensing Nature and to see if I was interested in being involved with that.Ìý And that really enables us to step back and just go beyond the idea of how to make nature more accessible and inclusive for people with sight loss.Ìý So, working with countryside organisations – natural heritage organisations – to really help them understand how to better explain and describe the land their visitors are enjoying but through more multi-sensory language and experiences.Ìý That led to a number of other projects which culminated last year in what was called the Re-Storying Landscapes for Social Inclusion Project which was hosted at Westonbirt National Arboretum in Gloucester.Ìý The Sensing Nature element of that was to train four visually impaired people to volunteer as guides to lead sensory walks around the Westonbirt Arboretum.

Ìý

White

So, just to get this right, this is blind people actually guiding?Ìý It almost sounds like turning what normally happens completely on its head.

Ìý

Shipley

That’s the whole point.Ìý It’s disrupting people’s perceptions of who should be leading guided walks, what you should experience on a guided walk and experience the arboretum through a number of lenses, as I said really, that perhaps they wouldn’t have normally expected to.

Ìý

White

Right.Ìý Well, that’s really intriguing.Ìý I mean I’m more an animal lover than a plant lover but with the exception of birds, it’s very hard to pursue an interest in wild animals and wildlife, any thoughts or tips?

Ìý

Shipley

Yeah, so one thing I’d really recommend, if you have access to somewhere in nature where you can visit regularly and spend maybe half an hour or more just in situ and you’ll hear the birds but the birds will gradually adapt to your presence and then you’ll notice when other things come along because the birds will react – their calls will change and you’ll know that if a fox is passing then something’s triggering an alarm call within the birds, the birds will tell you.

Ìý

White

Those are all good tips.Ìý We would welcome your views – listeners – including people who’ve pursued an interest in birds and bird song.Ìý You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk.Ìý You can leave voice messages on 0161 8361338 or go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch.Ìý Thanks to Andrew Hesser and Andy Shipley.Ìý From me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio manager Nat Stokes, goodbye.

Ìý