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IN TOUCH 鈥� Channel 4's Audio Description Problems; Combining Sustainability and Inclusion

TX:听 26.10.2021听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 BETH HEMMINGS

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White

Good evening.听 Tonight, with the UN climate change conference 鈥� COP26 鈥� just around the corner, we all know there鈥檚 a price to be paid for a sustainable future and an even bigger price to pay if nothing is done about it.听 But is there a danger that disabled people may be paying a higher price than most?

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Clip

So, when you get off the bus, if the cyclists are coming and they鈥檙e not stopping, I just don鈥檛 feel safe until I get back into my flat. 听I just feel stressed out, that鈥檚 no way to live your life.

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White

We鈥檒l be discussing whether sustainability and inclusion can co-exist.

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But first, I know this is Radio 4 but I also like to keep an ear on what鈥檚 going on, on the telly.听 Channel 4 often has some good stuff.听 Let鈥檚 see 鈥� have a look at my braille Radio Times.听 You鈥檝e got Gogglebox, that鈥檚 always good for a laugh; Bake Off鈥� but may be not at the moment, since they鈥檝e had a considerable problem with audio description.听 This is following a fire at the site where their audio description and subtitling is produced.听 Ofcom have been critical about the lack of communication with their viewers.

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So, what is going on and how long will visually impaired people have to wait for the return of audio described programmes on Channel 4?

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Well, I鈥檝e been talking to Zaid Al-Qassab, he is Channel 4鈥檚 Chief Marketing Officer and Executive Lead for Inclusion and Diversity.听 This is Channel 4鈥檚 first interview on this matter.听 I asked him 鈥� what鈥檚 gone wrong?

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Al-Qassab

Well, Peter, if I may start by just saying how deeply sorry we are at the disruption to access services and I really do appreciate how difficult and frustrating this has been for viewers and for their families.听 There was, as you say, a trigger of the fire suppression system at the broadcast centre that transmits our services and it did cause significant damage to our systems and that鈥檚 meant we鈥檝e had to build a completely new system.听 Of course, we do have a backup but unfortunately, as we switched to that backup, part of the backup system that provides access services also failed.听 So, we鈥檝e been working, literally, round the clock since that incident but unfortunately, it鈥檚 been extremely complex technically.

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White

But just tell us, what has this actually meant in terms of accessible programmes for viewers with a hearing and a sight loss?

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Al-Qassab

So, firstly, in terms of audio descriptive services, this is an area where, historically, Channel 4 has 鈥� had about 40% of our programmes audio described, which is well ahead of Ofcom鈥檚 10% target and higher than any other broadcaster.听 Unfortunately, we don鈥檛 have the capability to serve them, at the moment, from the emergency backup.听 You also asked about subtitles and subtitles, I鈥檓 pleased to say, is a better story, we are now restored to subtitling on our main channels 鈥� the clarity 鈥� that doesn鈥檛 include plus one channels or Freesat but on our main channels we now have subtitles back, I鈥檓 pleased to say.

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White

But not signing?

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Al-Qassab

We have difficulty with audio description including sign language services.

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White

Now Ofcom have been critical, they鈥檝e told us, in a statement: 鈥淲e remain extremely concerned by the lack of audio description on Channel 4 which is causing deep upset and frustration among people who are blind or partially sighted.听 Channel 4 did not have strong backup measures in place and it shouldn鈥檛 have taken several weeks to provide a clear public plan and timeline for fixing the problem.鈥澨� And the go on to say: 鈥淲e expect Channel 4 to meet or exceed the timings it has set for restoring audio description to programmes and we will then consider any further action.鈥�

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How do you react to that?

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Al-Qassab

Well, a few weeks ago you had an article on your show about audio description where Ofcom described that Channel 4 massively exceeds their requirements, that鈥檚 a situation we intend to get back to as fast as possible, by mid-November.听 We recognise that we鈥檙e also going to have a backlog, which we鈥檙e committed to correct, so that we鈥檒l have audio description on all programmes which should have had it.

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White

But how come there are no backup arrangements for subtitling and audio description, you know, for when things go down as they inevitably will from time to time?

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Al-Qassab

Well, as described Peter, there are backups, we regularly rehearse what happens in the case of needing a backup, we did so just before the Tokyo Paralympics.听 Unfortunately, this incident lay in the connection between our emergency backup and the broadcast distribution.听 So, that isn鈥檛 something that could have been tested in advance, without interrupting all of our programming, and, unfortunately, that meant that the backup itself failed.听 This is, obviously, an unforeseen and deeply unfortunate incident and that鈥檚 why we鈥檙e working hard to put it right, as soon as possible.

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White

Ofcom has also criticised your communication with viewers over this period, they obviously feel that you鈥檝e not explained fully enough and quickly enough what was going on.

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Al-Qassab

I鈥檓 sorry, I think we could have done a better job with communicating at the start of this but we鈥檝e now moved to posting regular updates, including, by the way, subtitled and sign language videos, as well as on-air updates, so that our viewers are informed at the progress we鈥檙e making.

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White

Will you be making changes after this experience?

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Al-Qassab

We are always looking at how to improve our access services and we鈥檙e always looking at how to make sure that these events don鈥檛 occur.听 It鈥檚 deeply regrettable and it鈥檚 part of what we鈥檙e doing to invest in the new programme of technology which will go live in 2022 allowing us to have two different locations in the UK for access services and that will allow us to switch to one if the other one has problems.

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White

Zaid Al-Qassab, thank you very much indeed.

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Now we鈥檙e all having to get used to the idea that there are some big and necessary changes coming to the way we live and consume resources if we want to preserve a recognisable lifestyle, not to mention protecting the planet for generations to come.听 But in our haste to do this are some of the considerations designed to make the environment more sensitive to the needs of disabled people being forgotten or pushed aside?

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Well, we鈥檒l be discussing that with two experts in the field of sustainability and inclusion in a moment.听 But first, our reporter, Fern Lulham, has been out on the streets of London exploring the kind of issues we mean with visually impaired pedestrians.

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Lulham

I think the bus is just pulling up now.听 So, brace yourself.

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What might sound like the simple business of boarding a bus in London has become something of a leap of faith for local resident Hyacinth Malcolm as she now has to cross a busy cycle lane in order to do so.

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Malcolm

I鈥檝e got no functional vision whatsoever; everything is just grey.听 Not knowing if a bicycle is coming because I don鈥檛 know whether they鈥檒l slow down or not, I just don鈥檛 feel safe, so I鈥檇 rather take a taxi where I鈥檓 going.听 Until I get back into my flat, I just feel stressed out, that鈥檚 no way to live your life.听 What they鈥檝e done, they鈥檝e just taken our independence away and it's not just me, other people with mobility issues, it can鈥檛 be good for them either.

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Lulham

We鈥檙e actually standing on the pavement now, opposite a floating bus stop but in order to get to it we鈥檇, of course, have to cross this busy cycle lane, so Hyacinth what does that mean for you, when you use this bus?

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Malcolm

So, when you get off the bus, if the cyclists are coming and they鈥檙e not stopping somebody, like myself, I鈥檇 probably get knocked over.

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Lulham

I took a walk around Hyacinth鈥檚 local area with her to find out what other issues she encounters on a daily basis.

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Malcolm

The electric bicycles you don鈥檛 hear them, electric cars you don鈥檛 hear them.听 I mean the road I live on is a very busy road and I don鈥檛 always know 鈥� on my road 鈥� if the cars are coming or not and if electric cars or electric bicycles are coming and I鈥檓 trying to get across my road, I can鈥檛 hear them.

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Lulham

So, I鈥檓 pretty sure we just narrowly avoided an eScooter fly past there.

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Lower traffic areas, where items are placed to block off roads but often moved by motorists on to the pavements, can make a walk to work feel more like tackling an obstacle course.听 I asked Hyacinth how she negotiates this situation.

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Malcolm

I don鈥檛 know how to describe it because it happens so often.听 I鈥檓 still in motion but the cane stops, so I end up either jarring my wrist and my shoulder because, of course, the cane gets tangled up.听 We have to use the side of buildings as a shoreline and if there鈥檚 an A-board there it just throws you altogether.

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Lulham

And this is only likely to get worse as charging points for electric cars and loose cables running across pavements can also cause problems, as I found out the hard way.

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Ooh found the charging point.听 They鈥檙e quite big actually and they鈥檙e on the pavement, so yeah, you could definitely walk straight into one.

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In order to encourage cycling over using cars, more bike lanes are also being slotted into pathways in parks, so it鈥檚 one side of the path for pedestrians and the other side for cyclists.

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The worst thing is I can hear the bell but I have no idea which direction it鈥檚 coming from.

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Oh, Nancy, keep over.听 And they鈥檙e gone.

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I also spoke to another London resident who鈥檚 suffering from the sustainability measures being heightened.听 Kate Portal is totally blind and told me how the problem is affecting her every day journeys.

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Portal

I鈥檝e had to change my route entirely since these alterations were made.听 I鈥檝e had to find it, as a totally blind person.听 I think it鈥檚 a bit of a pipe dream, this idea that pedestrians and cyclists can all wash around together in harmony.听 If you鈥檙e walking along the pavement, there鈥檚 very little definition on to the bike lane, so you could veer on to a bike lane, it鈥檚 not at all clear.

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In a way I do think society owes it to disabled people who have acquired the ability to get around in a self-sufficient way.听 Why do we have to take a step backwards and be lumbered with something that would be unsafe for us to deal with?听 I kind of feel we鈥檙e very near the bottom of the heap.

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Lulham

What do you see as being the solution to all of these various problems?

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Portal

There鈥檚 a tonne of work to be done about being able to detect whether the bike lanes are empty or not, better definition between pavements and cycle lanes.听 I鈥檓, personally, amazed that cyclists aren鈥檛 being encouraged to use quiet routes, that everything has to be rebuilt for them and that, in itself, uses carbon.听 And also, they鈥檙e a lot easier to hear on a quieter road.听 Bicycling is quite intrusive and sometimes quite dangerous.

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Lulham

Overall, it seems that people with visual impairments are as keen as anyone else that action is taken on climate change but they鈥檙e equally keen for things like cycle lanes on pavements to be considered in tandem with accessibility.听 As for me, I personally had a fairly pressing problem at hand.

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Okay, Nancy, so now we just need to get home.听 And I don鈥檛 think we鈥檙e taking the bus, are we?听 Come on, come on, good girl.

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White

Fern Lulham with Kate and Hyacinth.

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Now two people who鈥檝e been doing some serious thinking and talking about these issues have been listening to that.听 Let me bring in Ann Frye first.听 Ann is an international specialist on the transport needs of disabled and older people, who worked for many years at the Department of Transport to put in place many improvements to inclusion policy and has subsequently led projects for the United Nations, the European Commission and the European Science Foundation and she鈥檚 now turning her attention to accessible air travel.

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Ann, do those experiences you鈥檝e just heard sound familiar?

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Frye

I鈥檓 afraid they do, very familiar.听 It鈥檚 a pattern now that cyclists are regarded as the most vulnerable road users and to my mind that鈥檚 鈥� yes, of course, they鈥檙e vulnerable but pedestrians are far more vulnerable and particularly those with disabilities.听 So, I think, we鈥檝e somehow got the priority wrong and the experiences we鈥檝e just heard are happening all over the country all the time.

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White

I mean we heard Kate say that we鈥檇 gone backwards, do you think that鈥檚 true and I wonder how you feel about that given all the work that you鈥檝e been doing through most of your career?

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Frye

Frankly, it鈥檚 very dispiriting and I think we have gone backwards because I think there is such a preoccupation among local authorities and others, first, for the sustainability agenda, which I think we all agree is important, as part of that to promote cycling above all else and that鈥檚 where you get these, frankly, monstrous things like floating bus stops where you have to cross a cycle lane to get from the pavement to the bus.听 How can that possibly be safe?听 And it鈥檚 been done to create greater safety for the cyclist, which is fabulous but it shouldn鈥檛 be done at the expense of vulnerable pedestrians.

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White

But, of course, that鈥檚 not the only thing that鈥檚 been done in the name of sustainability is it, we鈥檝e had eScooters, we鈥檝e got the development of the electric car, we heard about the problem with charging points as well.听 So, there are a lot of things and there are good reasons for them which makes it difficult to put the kind of argument that you鈥檙e putting doesn鈥檛 it?

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Frye

Well, I鈥檓 not sure it is such a difficult argument because, after all, everybody鈥檚 personal mobility is important and eScooters give freedom, and, no doubt, fun to some people but at the huge expense of other people.听 And also, if you look at things like electric vehicle charging points, frankly, anyone who鈥檚 on their mobile phone, which is most people are going to trip over cables before long.听 So, why are we not thinking this through before we introduce them, that鈥檚 all I鈥檓 asking?

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White

But you鈥檝e argued that many green schemes that were implemented quickly during the covid pandemic are now being made permanent without assessing the implications for disabled, visually impaired, elderly people.听 Is there a way around that because people think we鈥檙e in a hurry, they鈥檙e being told we鈥檙e in a hurry?

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Frye

Indeed, but I think root of it must lie in talking to people, in consulting people.听 What I don鈥檛 think works is waiting until you鈥檝e introduced some radical new scheme and then talking to the people on the street.听 What you need to do is talk to, what I call, the silent voices, the people who鈥檝e been frightened and are no longer out there for fear of falling or being knocked over.听 And I know that, by definition, it鈥檚 difficult to talk to the people who are not there but until you do that, you鈥檙e not going to understand the implication of what you鈥檙e doing.

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White

Right, now, the UN Climate Change Conference or COP-26, is set to begin in Glasgow this weekend.听 It鈥檚 being seen as the last opportunity to make a real difference to the crisis we鈥檙e now facing.

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Iain McKinnon started his working life as a product design engineer, he is co-founder of something called the Global Disability Innovation Hub and he鈥檒l be part of a panel at COP-26 that will consider the importance of inclusive design and climate resilience.

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So, first Iain, what does the Global Disability Innovation Hub actually do in this area?

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McKinnon

We work across different themes, one of which is inclusive design and one of which is climate and crisis resilience.听 We work very hard on our projects, internationally, to make sure that, as we鈥檝e been discussing, inclusive design is embedded at the very start of the process, that there is excellent engagement, genuine engagement of disabled people throughout the entire process from beginning to end.听 And I guess what we鈥檝e been seeing in some of the work we鈥檝e been doing, that鈥檚 not always been the case.听 And so, we鈥檙e trying to kind of bring the two things together, they鈥檙e both incredibly important topics and issues.听 There鈥檚 clearly a very real need to intervene and actually the people that are responsible for some of these interventions, to make them aware of the importance of good inclusive design and to bring it to bear.

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White

Just staying with you for a minute Iain.听 This has been tied to COP-26 where you鈥檙e doing your talk, world leaders have got a lot on their plates with this crisis and there鈥檚 going to be a lot of high-powered pushing and shoving, people trying to do the best for their country.听 How seriously do you think we can get the ultimate decision makers to take the problem of disability access, isn鈥檛 it a long way down the agenda?

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McKinnon

Well, it perhaps feels that way now and perhaps that is true.听 We hope that that鈥檚 changing though and there鈥檚 ourselves and a few others who are present at COP this year, I believe for the first time, really putting disability on the agenda, we believe there鈥檚 a change in that.听 And if you think about in terms of infrastructure, let鈥檚 say, it鈥檚 important to get it right first time, that鈥檚 where the value is, otherwise it鈥檚 going to incur significant costs further down the line if you don鈥檛 do it right first time.听 To do it right first time is to do it inclusively and that鈥檚 very important and I think that gets people鈥檚 attention.

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White

Ann, just going back to you finally, I鈥檓 sure you鈥檇 agree with that, with all your long experience in this field, what do you think are the most important things to come out of this conference?

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Frye

It has to be that we need to include everyone from the outset and not be panicked into what look like smart quick wins on sustainability.听 So, unless you鈥檝e got everybody on board you shouldn鈥檛 be going ahead.

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White

Well, we will have to see where it goes.听 People will be hoping, I guess, for some fairly revolutionary changes.听 Iain McKinnon, Ann Frye, thank you very much indeed.

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And that鈥檚 all for today.听 Your thoughts and experiences about anything you鈥檝e heard on tonight鈥檚 programme are always welcome, you can email bbc.co.uk or leave a voice message on 0161 8361338 or go to our website bbc.co.uk/intouch where you can download tonight鈥檚 and previous editions of the programme.

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From me, Peter White, producer Beth Hemmings and studio managers John Cole and Carwyn Griffith, goodbye.