成人快手

Downloaded from www.bbc.co.uk/radio4

听

THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.听 BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE 成人快手 CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

听

听

IN TOUCH 鈥� The Return to University

TX: 听21.09.2021听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

听

PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听 FERN LULHAM

听

听

听

White

Good evening.听 New term, new academic year, new education minister.听 So, after the past 18 months, in which university students could be forgiven for thinking that what are supposed to be amongst the best times of your life, could turn out to be amongst the worst, we wanted to know what blind and partially sighted students could expect as they return to uni over the next few days.听 Will courses be face-to-face?听 If they鈥檙e online, how accessible will they be?听 What about social distancing rules?听 And what about getting any special equipment you need to keep up with your course work?听 And there may be other issues which crop up in the next 20 minutes or so.

听

We welcome back two students who reacted to the situation at the beginning of last academic year in very different ways and two people with direct experience of offering advice to visually impaired students.听 Let鈥檚 first catch up with Jimmy Bryden.听 Now he began his maths degree last year at Birmingham University.

听

So, Jimmy, first of all, looking back on that year, after a summer to reflect, how would you sum it up?

听

Bryden

It was an odd year.听 I really enjoyed my course.听 If I hadn鈥檛 enjoyed my course as much as I did I think it would have been absolutely horrible.听 It was quite good to be absorbed in that and not be focusing on lack of social interaction to a large scale.

听

White

On the work side, in the end, what proportion of your work was online and what face-to-face?

听

Bryden

All of my work was online except for one lecture, right at the end.

听

White

And what about accessibility, because this is something that crops up quite a lot for visually impaired students and of course, if you鈥檙e mixing online and face-to-face then, you know, in a way, you can deal with the problems.听 Did you have accessibility problems?

听

Bryden

Particularly at the start, there were issues with how we鈥檙e going to get lecture notes across that are accessible and how I鈥檓 going to read them.听 And maths is quite a sensitive subject that鈥檚 got a lot of notations, so how we鈥檙e going to deal with this, you physically can鈥檛 meet someone to support you.

听

White

And how well did the university deal with any problems that you had and who did you go to for help?

听

Bryden

My academic tutor and he provided me a lot of assistance and also the lecturers themselves were very, very helpful in that I could email them and say 鈥� could I have the lecture notes in this format please 鈥� or 鈥� I鈥檓 having this problem, can I meet you.听 So, everyone was very supportive.

听

White

Now at the beginning of the last academic year the pandemic was just flaring up again, after appearing to be in retreat, did you consider skipping the year and doing something else instead till it all blew over?

听

Bryden

I wasn鈥檛 sure if I was going to take a gap year or not.听 I was hesitant anyway, then, obviously, with all the coronavirus, I thought, well, it鈥檚 possibly easier just to go to university than try and find something you can do in a gap year with travelling.

听

White

So, in fact, you almost did the reverse of what you might have been expected to do and went for your first year straightaway because of the coronavirus?

听

Bryden

It was less of a thought out decision, in that way, it鈥檚 worked out quite well.

听

White

Okay.听 Well, someone who did decide to take a year out and is now literally just starting her second year, in fact I think she鈥檚 starting it today, which is why we can鈥檛 talk to her live, is Caris Hall.听 She鈥檚 returning to the University of Chichester and I asked her to remind us why she鈥檇 decided to take last year out.

听

Hall

My main reason was just because there was so much unknown surrounding covid, so it was all very much trial and error.听 The amount of the lockdowns that were sort of put in place over the last year, that was sort of something I was really concerned about because I鈥檓 actually quite far away from home.听 And also sort of accessibility.听 So, it鈥檚 still a little prominent now but things like being guided by people, I really didn鈥檛 want people being made to feel uncomfortable.

听

White

And looking back over what鈥檚 happened in that year, do you still think you dodged a bullet?

听

Hall

I really did, it was just mental health wise and everything being so confusing, I don鈥檛 deal with that personally, so that was a really, really good decision.听 And I鈥檓 also a year older and that does make a huge difference as well, I do think.

听

White

So, what have you been doing instead?

听

Hall

Honestly sort of honing my skills with singing because that鈥檚 the degree I鈥檓 taking 鈥� vocal performance 鈥� now.听 Also, helping my mum out with childcare, she鈥檚 a single parent, so that actually gave me quite a lot of confidence with my skills and mobility, taking my brother to school.听 So, things like that really, really sort of life skills.

听

White

As you say there, you鈥檝e decided to take a different course.听 I mean just explain why and how that鈥檚 working out so far.

听

Hall

So, I originally applied to study English Literature, which I鈥檇 wanted to do for quite a few years and I鈥檇 started this English Literature course, which was absolutely fabulous, however, I just personally couldn鈥檛 cope with the degree of work and research and writing and reading that you had to do.听 I don鈥檛 want to view it as a problem, because it鈥檚 actually brought me to a course that I really do think I鈥檓 made for, if that makes any sense.听 I鈥檓 only in my first week, so I haven鈥檛 even started lectures yet but I already feel really at home, safe.听 I know what I鈥檓 doing almost, even though I鈥檓 actually doing a classical performance degree and I鈥檝e never sung classical in my life, I still feel very accepted.

听

White

But I believe there is one fly in the ointment and that鈥檚 been the financing and the disability student allowance.听 What鈥檚 happened?

听

Hall

A lack of communication and a lack of accessibility would be the main reason I would give.听 The online websites to use and then the forms to fill in are really not blind friendly, I would say.听 So, I applied in May, online, and I got a notification saying we鈥檒l take up to eight weeks to process this.听 And after the eight weeks I received a letter saying because you鈥檝e changed course you need to reapply from scratch.听 So, this was August, so I had to sort of freak out a little bit and sort of get myself together and go okay I need help with these forms because they鈥檙e all 鈥� you need to scan them.听 And I鈥檝e been having many phone conversations with the DSA saying 鈥� look when is this needs letter going to come through 鈥� which basically tells you who you need to contact in terms of the companies that can help you.听 And I still have yet to receive that letter, despite lots of other people ringing on my behalf as well.

听

White

Well, amongst the people who鈥檝e been ringing on your behalf is us actually, so the Student Loans Company say they are making changes to make it possible for visually impaired students to apply independently online, so they acknowledge some of the difficulties there.听 But they do say, as you鈥檝e rather explained, the records show you made your application for DSA specifically for this course in August, following an initial application.听 So, you feel that was a misunderstanding really?

听

Hall

It really was yeah, the systems are very shocking actually 鈥� communications lacking, there鈥檚 sort of no support in terms of where you are at 鈥� it鈥檚 quite stressful, it鈥檚 quite anxiety inducing if I鈥檓 completely honest.

听

White

Well that鈥檚 Caris and we鈥檒l be hearing from her again a bit later on but literally within an hour of that recorded interview last Friday, Caris received by email the letter which did confirm her Disability Student Allowance and that still means that she has now to apply to various companies for assistance, such as guiding assistance, a note taker etc.听 Whether that happening within an hour is any kind of coincidence or anything to do with us getting involved we can鈥檛 really say.听 From past experience that could still take weeks to be in place, whereas probably now is the time that she needs it most.

听

Well, someone who鈥檚 done a lot of work with visually impaired students, including on this issue of finance, is Rachel Hewett from the Visually Impaired Centre for Teaching and Research at Birmingham University.听

听

Rachel, we frequently hear about this problem on In Touch, why does the Disability Student Allowance continue to cause people problems?

听

Hewett

That鈥檚 a very good question Peter, it鈥檚 very frustrating to continue hearing these challenges.听 Student Finance have been engaging with this issue but, as we鈥檙e hearing, there鈥檚 still problems continuing.

听

White

Yeah, I mean the Student Loans Company told us: 鈥淲e recognise that the current customer journey for students doesn鈥檛 always meet their expectations.听 SLC is currently working with the Department for Education and the Welsh Government to reform the DSA service.鈥澨� And they say: 鈥溾��the improvements will enable all DSA students to apply via a fully online accessible application service with access to digital assistance and support at every stage of their student finance journey.鈥澨� And they say: 鈥淲e want students to be at the heart of these reforms.鈥澨�听 And recently held the first meeting of a new customer panel.

听

So, I mean, that all sounds good, is that what you鈥檙e expecting to happen?

听

Hewett

I do think there鈥檚 a genuine desire to improve, it鈥檚 just, I think, the pace at which is happening is disappointing.听 We鈥檝e got students in the meantime who aren鈥檛 able to apply independently and this has been going on since I started this research back in 2015, it鈥檚 just really been too long now.

听

White

And what are the implications of that?听 You know, if you鈥檙e waiting for your allowance, what does that actually mean in terms of your course, your social life possibly?

听

Hewett

It can be so stressful.听 Going to university, for the first time, for any student, is an extremely stressful time 鈥� a lot of unknowns, a lot to think about 鈥� you鈥檝e got all these added barriers on top.听 The scheme which is supposed to be supporting students is actually causing them more stress.听 Ultimately, we found, from our research, that students were starting university without the support that they needed in place, which in cases 鈥� some students went through even a whole term without having the equipment or the human support that they should have been allocated.

听

White

Listening to that and with us is Liz Silver, who, until very recently, worked in disabled student support and emailed us after a programme highlighting a report which said that poor access was making it difficult for some students to cope at university.

听

Liz, I think you think this problem of financial support for equipment has got worse.

听

Silver

In some ways it鈥檚 got worse, in some ways it鈥檚 got better.听 So much depends on the assessment centre and how fast the system actually works.听 Having a meeting with the assessment centre and the assessor writing up your report and then that report going back to Student Finance.听 Each of those phases can take, well, at least two weeks and often longer.听 The closer it gets to term it can be very difficult for a student to actually get the equipment they need at the time.

听

White

There was a change, a few years ago, wasn鈥檛 there, which said the government wanted universities to make more of a contribution to the various elements in Disability Student Allowance.听 What effect has that had and has that settled down at all?

听

Silver

I think, initially, it had a very negative effect but I think it has settled down, in my experience.听 One of the things that DSA used to fund were note takers for 鈥� particularly students with a visual impairment 鈥� and then the government said, well, for a lot of students the universities will have to provide that service.听 But now, an assessment centre can recommend an electronic note taker, i.e., someone who can take notes for a student and then type them up in an electronic format.听 But, for a while, I think it was expected that if lectures, teaching sessions, were recorded then that was enough and it clearly isn鈥檛.听 Being able to listen to a lecture and then having to listen to it again and again, in order to make your own notes is very unfair on the student.

听

White

The Department of Education told us: 鈥淲e remain committed to ensuring every student, including those with visual impairments gets the support they need to achieve their full potential鈥︹�� and they say: 鈥淲e expect all universities to make reasonable adjustments for their disabled students, as is required of them under the Equality Act 2010.鈥澨�

听

Rachel, is that fair?听 Universities aren鈥檛 poor, are they?

听

Hewett

It鈥檚 interesting they鈥檙e saying they鈥檙e reasonable adjustments.听 I think, in many cases, that鈥檚 where it goes wrong, that actually the adjustments that universities make tend to be reacting to a problem, rather than anticipating ahead what adjustments a student might need.

听

White

Rachel, whose job is it to make sure that exams are in an accessible form?

听

Hewett

There might be some exams which are accredited by external organisations and that could be more complicated but on the whole, it is the university鈥檚 responsibility.

听

White

Jimmy, have you had any problems in that sort of area?

听

Bryden

Most of my exams have been open book and they鈥檝e been sent to me in the same format as the lecture notes that have been sent to me, so they鈥檝e all been fairly accessible.

听

White

Open book means you are entitled to do research, you can look for information as you do it, is that right?

听

Bryden

You could use the lecture notes or you could use the internet, within reason.听 I found the online submission portal quite difficult to use, so I was able to email mine in.

听

White

I want to put a question to both Liz and Rachel.听 If you get into difficulties at university, whether it鈥檚 work related or maybe more personal, where should your first port of call be?

听

Silver

I think, initially, the student should talk to the relevant disability advisor who, hopefully, they will have had some contact with before they actually start at the university.听 Usually, a disability advisor will write up her access plan, something like that, depending on what system the university has.听 It鈥檚 really based on students鈥� knowledge of their own needs, which makes absolute sense.听 And then that should go to the relevant tutors or course leaders for them to put into place.

听

White

Isn鈥檛 that where it sometimes gets stuck because what we tend to hear is perhaps lecturers don鈥檛 know much about the mechanics of how a blind or partially sighted person has to work?

听

Silver

Absolutely, yeah.听 And in that case the disability advisor can liaise with the school to explain what the issues are or maybe set up a three-way meeting with the student and their personal tutor or the course leader or the module leader.听 But if there鈥檚 still problems, if a student has to make a complaint, then they should also talk to the students鈥� union.

听

White

Because Rachel, I believe the suggestion is that teachers, lecturers should have awareness training in disability generally.

听

Hewett

Absolutely, we鈥檇 expect that all lecturers have some understanding of inclusion.听 I guess the challenge comes when it鈥檚 quite complex adjustments that need to be made.听 DSA actually can fund support from a specialist to bring in experts 鈥� advice 鈥� from outside the institution.

听

White

Liz, just one quite thing on this before we move on, is there a danger that maybe of sometimes being a bit unfair to university teachers?听 I鈥檓 guessing they don鈥檛 see many visually impaired students.

听

Silver

Absolutely true.听 But what you hope is that when they do instead of just saying 鈥� oh no, we can鈥檛 do that 鈥� or 鈥� why should I do that 鈥� that they鈥檇 actually be open enough to talk to the student, talk to the disability advisor or disability officer and just find out why a student needs those various adjustments.听 Disability equality training can be really helpful but I think in a lot of places it鈥檚 voluntary.

听

White

Let鈥檚 move to that other vital element in university life, the social aspect of it.听 One of the things Caris acknowledged, when we talked to her last year, was that she hadn鈥檛 made the most of those social opportunities in her first year, for all sorts of reasons and that anxiety is about social distancing was one of the factors persuading her to take last year off.听 I asked her how she was approaching the new term from that point of view.

听

Hall

It鈥檚 actually going really, really well because, obviously, there aren鈥檛 really any restrictions in place, within reason, you have to be sort of aware of people and respectful of people and that鈥檚 something I鈥檓 really conscious of.听 However, the last sort of five days have been absolutely incredible.听 My course mates are just accepting of me and my department leads and the lecturers within the department have been nothing but accommodating and they have really gone above and beyond.听 I鈥檓 shocked at how incredible everything has turned out really, yeah, it鈥檚 lovely.

听

White

What will you do differently because you did say that in your first year you did perhaps not make as much of the opportunities, what鈥檚 going to change?

听

Hall

Well, my course is a very social course, you can鈥檛 really sit in your room when you鈥檝e got a module on ensembles and practise your ensemble part on your own, you have to sort of make sure you are making contact with your tutors, your colleagues and your course mates.听 So, I think it鈥檚 a very social course, I sort of have to really put myself out there and go hello, I鈥檓 Caris, could I please join you.听 And make people aware of how I am and what I need.

听

White

So, what would you say to perhaps first years now, what would be your advice?

听

Hall

Put yourself out there.听 The worst that can happen is someone says 鈥� I鈥檓 not sure if I can do that for you, I鈥檓 really sorry 鈥� you move on and people honestly will accept you for you, they will, people are very kind and that is a huge life skill.听 Advocate for yourself, ask for help and actually it鈥檚 not just blind people, visually impaired people who have to do that in the first few weeks of being a fresher.

听

White

Perhaps everybody should embark on a singing course, it sounds a very congenial thing to do.

听

Jimmy, you鈥檙e now embarking on your second year, it struck me, when we talked before, that initially you were more work orientated perhaps than a wild social life, do you feel that your confidence might be higher now, that you might be able to take a few more opportunities to have fun?

听

Bryden

In fairness, last year there wasn鈥檛 very many opportunities for going out.听 I鈥檓 really excited to meet the people who are doing my course.听 And it鈥檚 weird that you feel like you haven鈥檛 really joined the university yet because you鈥檝e only met six people or something.

听

White

So, you鈥檙e going to do what Caris said and put yourself out there a bit more are you?

听

Bryden

Oh yeah, exactly, yeah.

听

White

I just, finally, want to go back to Rachel and Liz.听 What I don鈥檛 want people to come away with, thinking this has to be a very negative experience.听 Liz, I鈥檓 just wondering what you would say, particularly, to first years?

听

Silver

Make sure you apply for Disabled Students Allowance and if you鈥檙e not happy with what you鈥檝e been assessed for, in terms of equipment or if things aren鈥檛 right, or if you find you鈥檝e got additional needs then make sure that you talk to a disability advisor, to the assessment centre, make use of who鈥檚 around, what resources there are.听 Enjoy the course and enjoy the socialising bit as well.

听

White

Rachel, one bit of advice?

听

Hewett

Most lecturers at university, most staff that you meet, most students that you meet they want you to succeed, they want you to have the best experience that you possibly can.听 The absolute majority of students that I鈥檝e worked with had a really good time at university.听 They had their challenges, they worked through but it was, overall, a really positive experience.

听

White

It only remains for me to wish Jimmy, Caris and indeed all other visually impaired students just starting out, the best of luck for the next year with the hope that some of what we鈥檝e discussed will be helpful.听 And also, thanks to Rachel Hewett and Liz Silver for their advice.

听

Do tell us about your own experiences, whenever they happened, you can email intouch@bbc.co.uk, leave voice messages at 0161 8361338 or contact our website and that鈥檚 bbc.co.uk/intouch from where you can download tonight鈥檚 and previous programmes.

听

From me, Peter White, producer Fern Lulham and studio managers Mike Smith and Philip Halliwell.听 Goodbye.

听

听

听

听