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IN TOUCH – Applying for jobs; Going out after lockdown

TX:Ìý 27.04.2021Ìý 2040-2100

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PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý SIMON HOBAN

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White

Good evening.Ìý Tonight, we meet the visually impaired woman who’s found a job after 2,000 applications and 200 interviews, she says she faced discrimination.Ìý And as restrictions ease, how are you feeling about getting out and about again after so long indoors – raring to go or perhaps lacking in a bit of confidence?Ìý Well, I’m not quite so sure myself.

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Clip

Left again.

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I can’t follow you exactly in a straight line – there you are I’ve bumped into you. [laughter]

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White

We’ll hear from one couple, in particular, about their experiences, their worries and how they will approach the whole thing.

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But first, regular listeners to this programme won’t be surprised to hear the latest government figures show the rate of unemployment amongst disabled people is twice that of people without disabilities and just one in four registered blind and partially sighted people of working age have jobs.Ìý Well, all this, despite a strong of initiatives by successive governments over the years designed to bring unemployment amongst disabled people down, including the appointment of 315 specialist disability advisors at Job Centres by the end of next month.Ìý Here’s the Minister for Disabled People, Justin Thomlinson, talking about that on ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ Radio 4.

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Clip – Radio 4

Thomlinson

It’s part of the menu of support that is offered.Ìý They’re doing it – they have the expertise to link the individual to that specific support.Ìý Now that could be the Health and Work Programme, that could be directly to businesses or part of our multimillion pound fully inclusive plan for jobs, showing a real desire to have a diverse employment across this country and that’s why we’ve got record disability employment and why we are redoubling our efforts to make sure our ambitions to get a million more disabled people into work are met.

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But what’s the process really like for visually impaired people looking for work?

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My first guest today knows all about the challenges of finding a job.Ìý Angharad Paget Jones is 27 and from Port Talbot in South Wales and she joins me now.Ìý Just tell me about your recent search for work.

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Jones

So, I was made redundant in July last year.Ìý I was furloughed for a month and then they made the announcement that a few of us were being made redundant.Ìý And since then, I applied for almost 2,000 jobs.Ìý I work in marketing and data, so my field was a little bit broad where I could apply from anything from social media, all the way through to data analyst.Ìý But, yeah, it took about nearly 2,000 jobs, 200 interviews.

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White

Tell me what kind of responses were you getting?

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Jones

I usually just get the generic we’ve moved on, a lot didn’t reply at all and then the ones where I actually got interviews for, they found out I was disabled and actually – some of them actually questioned my ability to do a job or get to the job based on my disability, which is absolutely illegal.

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White

Do you always disclose your visual impairment?

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Jones

I do because I’m a guide dog user, so I can’t really hide my…

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White

So, it would be pretty obvious.

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Jones

Yeah.Ìý So, when you actually do meet me in person.Ìý And any task that comes up from the interview process I might need a reasonable adjustment to be made, so I have to disclose early.

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White

So, you feel that people were rejecting you before even really finding anything out about you, hearing about you, hearing from you?

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Jones

I think so.Ìý And I know that it’s – a lot of people are in a similar boat and there are a lot more job applications but you could kind of feel people – you could feel their interest divvy off, they weren’t – they weren’t interested.

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White

And what do you think they were basing that on?

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Jones

I’d tell them I was disabled and I’d need an adjustment and then their attitude would change and then you knew you were getting that rejection.

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White

Just explain the kind of adjustment you were telling them you would need.

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Jones

It could be that I need more time because I have a screen reader that needs to read me and that takes a bit longer.Ìý It could be that if they send me something in a pdf, I need it in a Word document.Ìý Nothing huge, nothing that would take a lot of time but yeah, those sorts of things.

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White

Now, as you said yourself, it’s a tough environment out there at the moment.Ìý What makes you certain that what you’ve encountered is discrimination because a lot of people will have got rejection contacts in the same way that you did?

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Jones

One of the interviews I got I told them I was visually impaired and he actually laughed at me and hung the call up.Ìý I had one where I wanted to prove a point, so I applied for the same job twice, using a different email, one where I disclosed my disability and the other where I didn’t and I actually I got an interview call for the one where I didn’t disclose.

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White

And I think you also had an example of someone you were up against and there were only two of you – you left and something happened there as well, tell me about that.

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Jones

Yeah.Ìý There was two of us left, I had disclosed my disability at that point and they called me the next day to say that somebody else was better suited but what they didn’t know is I actually knew the candidate and I trained that person.

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White

Angharad, how far do you accept that potential employers do have the right to ask what effect your lack of sight will have on your ability to do the job, I mean what’s legitimate and what’s discriminatory?

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Jones

Basing it on ability to do the job is discrimination, you’re not allowed to do that.Ìý You’re allowed to ask questions like – we use this technology, what if it’s not accessible.Ìý You can ask that but the sort of questions I was facing was – well, you would have to travel to Newport, can blind people get the train.

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White

So, your real objection appears to be based on ignorance of what visually impaired people can do?

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Jones

Yeah, it is ignorance.Ìý And I had one to say that – Oh, I don’t like dogs – and I was rejected, even though it’s the law that you have to let a guide dog in, the only exemption is for taxi drivers.

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White

Right and that leads to plenty of trouble as well.Ìý Did you complain at the time?

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Jones

To a few of them I did, where I was like blatantly discriminated against.Ìý I just don’t like to complain a lot, so a lot I didn’t.Ìý I think it’s a British thing where I just don’t.

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White

You’re obviously pretty determined, you wouldn’t have made 2,000 applications if you weren’t.Ìý What effect did this have on you, on your confidence if you like?

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Jones

It made me feel like people just don’t want disabled people in the workplace but then I got my current employer, when I finally did get a job, and they’ve been so amazing.Ìý It is kind of finding the right one.Ìý But it shouldn’t be that way, you know, it should just be – okay, you need these adjustments that’s it, you can do the job.

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White

And just explain the difference with this latest employer – the difference in attitude.

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Jones

Well, I disclosed my disability to – not in the first interview but I had a call with HR, it was kind of like an interview, where they ask a few questions just to clarify some things.Ìý So, I disclosed my disability then.Ìý And she didn’t even batter an eyelid or change and she was just like – well, your CV says you can do the job, you passed the first interview and they think you can do the job. ÌýAnd then there was about a week later I got a call back to say I was being offered the job and she told me I’m not the only disabled person, I am the only physically disabled person there but I’m not the only one and adjustments can be made, it’s not that difficult.Ìý And that attitude was just amazing, I’m not being a burden to anyone and that’s what it’s felt like all this time.

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White

Now, as you know, there is anti-discrimination law and you’ve quoted it from time to time in this interview.Ìý There has been this string of government initiatives that I mentioned at the beginning.Ìý What’s missing, what would make a difference to this figure of only one in four visually impaired people of working age having a job, which hasn’t changed appreciably in decades?

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Jones

I think a better understanding.Ìý They go on about having people at Job Centres but they don’t have one in all places.Ìý I mean when I first got made redundant, I phoned the Job Centre for advice and they told me to sign on to ESA, which is a disability related benefit for when you can’t work.Ìý But it’s like, I can work, I want to work.Ìý You see the government, especially the Disability Minister, making decisions and talking with groups of people who aren’t disabled.Ìý They make these decisions for us without consulting us, like how do you know what we want if you don’t talk to us.Ìý I’ve got the job now and I’m happy with that but I had zero help from the government.

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White

Angharad Paget Jones, thank you very much for joining us.

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Now all across the UK the lockdown restrictions are easing, according to the roadmap set out by the government.Ìý It varies across the country but yesterday saw the next stage in Scotland where all shops are now re-open, pubs and restaurants can serve again outside and travel restrictions have been lifted.Ìý And in Wales outdoor hospitality, including cafes, pubs and restaurants, were also allowed to re-open.Ìý It’s good news, not least for the stricken businesses, of course, desperate for our custom again but even though restrictions are gradually loosening it’s still not clear how long some elements will still be in play – things like masks and crucially for people who are blind or partially sighted, social distancing.Ìý Well to illustrate why this is particularly significant if you’re visually impaired I met up with my producer, Simon Hoban, outside Media City in Salford.

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One of the reasons that I, and quite a lot of blind people like me, have felt confident about going out in the past is that if you got into trouble you knew that people would be willing to take your arm but, of course, since the pandemic and the fear of infection, people have got very cautious.Ìý I just wanted to illustrate why verbally guiding someone without contact is tricky.

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So, Simon, can we set off.

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Hoban

Yeah, okay.Ìý Well, let’s actually turn round to the left then because…

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White

Yeah, well that’s the first thing I didn’t know.

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Hoban

Yeah, so there are actually more obstacles this way, so, that actually might make it more of a realistic…

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White

So, you want to lead me into obstacles.

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Hoban

Well, the pub’s also this way as well Peter.

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White

Oh, well, that’s good as well.Ìý So, off we go.Ìý I’ve got a white cane…

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Hoban

Okay, so, do a right there Pete – turn right.

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White

A half right or a full right.

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Hoban

I would say a half right there.

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White

Okay.

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Hoban

And just keep going forward.

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White

Yeah.Ìý But you see if I’m trying to walk side by side with you, it’s very hard to walk in a dead straight line if you’re blind.Ìý And, of course, once you start to wander off then it simply is exacerbated, you get further and further away from the person you’re with.

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Hoban

Having to do this verbally actually is quite a mental challenge, as I’m walking myself it’s multi-tasking really.

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White

And the real problem is that it’s much slower and the other thing is I’m nervous, it makes me nervous.Ìý I think this really makes the point…

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Hoban

Left again.

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White

…that I can’t follow you exactly in a straight line – there you are, I’ve bumped into you.Ìý [laughter]

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Hoban

Keep going.

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White

I think – I mean I am confident but I think somebody who’s confidence was a little bit fragile, they would now be thinking – I don’t know, I don’t know whether I want to do this.

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Well, hopefully, that gives listeners a flavour of the issues faced by blind or partially sighted people for as long as social distance is still a requirement.Ìý We can talk about this now with two of our listeners – Richard Foster and his wife Amanda.Ìý Now they’re in Aberdeen and we heard that Scotland is opening up to quite a large extent, well it happened yesterday.Ìý So, Richard, are you going out, what will be your attitude?

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Richard Foster

I’m very much like you, Peter, I’m quite a confident person and normally I wouldn’t think twice about going out.Ìý Yeah, you get where you going and if you need some help, you just ask for help and take the person’s arm and you get guided.Ìý Doing it without actually being in physical contact with the person strikes me as being just downright dangerous.Ìý I don’t know if I would even attempt it and I’d be very surprised if my wife, Amanda, would even attempt being guided like that.Ìý It seems to me just fraught with the possibilities of things going wrong.

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White

Well, let’s bring Amanda in, what is your attitude to it?

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Amanda Foster

My attitude is that I definitely would not do it.Ìý I wouldn’t do it before I listened to you doing it and I certainly wouldn’t do it now.

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White

Let me stay with you for a minute Amanda.Ìý How – I mean how much have you been going out over – and we know what the restrictions are but there are certain situations where you can go out – to take exercise and so forth – and of course there have been supermarkets open all the way through this.Ìý So, what’s your direct experience of this been?

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Amanda Foster

In most circumstances, quite good really because we’ve got – we’ve got absolutely wonderful friends who will sort of take me out and we’ll go shopping or started going out – out walks.Ìý And we just – they just guide me.Ìý I mean the problem, as I say, we have is that when we go into the restaurants or the cafes [indistinct word] me and Richard can sit together but I don’t think that the rest of my friends will be able to and that I just find really difficult.Ìý So, it’s definitely made me less confident.

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White

I mean that point about shops, Richard, is interesting because this is not just about walking alongside people and so forth, it’s how difficult it’s been to know, for example, how far you are up the queue, if you’re waiting to go in.Ìý I just wonder how much of that you’ve had to deal with?

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Richard Foster

I’ve been an absolute cheater with that Peter, I’ve always done shopping with a sighted person who has been absolutely brilliant.Ìý I’ve not had any problems at all.Ìý I haven’t even had people from the public yelling at us, you two aren’t two meters apart, which is what I was afraid of.Ìý But, I think, hopefully, it just shows that the people of Aberdeen are very sensible and they realise that that’s the way we have to do it.Ìý On my own I’d have been absolutely up the creek, as you say, for queueing and standing in the right places and these sorts of visual indicators that I can’t see, I’d have been really up the creek.

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White

Are there any other elements, Richard, because people have been indoors much more often and I’ve always said confidence with being blind or partially sighted is a matter of keeping on doing it and the moment you stop or don’t do it as often, that’s when there’s a danger that confidence will start to ebb away.

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Richard Foster

Yes, I very much feel that, Peter.Ìý And the other thing that I’m really worried about is that I will have to re-learn all the built environment outside because pavements will now be different shapes, they’ll be probably wider in certain instances.Ìý Some of the roads that used to be two-way will be one-way – that is something that I’m really worried about.

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White

I mean one of the things that may be happening, Amanda, is – I mean Richard talked about wider pavements – of course, a number of places – I don’t know what’s happening in Aberdeen – have allowed pubs and restaurants to spread a bit, tables outside, perhaps in different places.Ìý Have you come across that?

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Amanda Foster

I have a bit but luckily, as I say, I’ve been with somebody.Ìý But I mean to try and negotiate that with a white cane, is near impossible really.Ìý I just don’t feel that blind people have been considered at all.

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White

I mean, am I exaggerating this…

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Richard Foster

No, you’re not exaggerating, Peter, no you’re not exaggerating, I’m absolutely with you on this because we haven’t – at least I haven’t – been doing very much independent mobility for the last year and a bit, I’m sure that I won’t be as confident as I was.Ìý I’ve always been very, shall we say, cautious, I would say, cautious but confident and I think you need to be like that if you’re using a long cane.Ìý In the days when I was a guide dog owner then, of course, the guide dog used to do all the work and I was very lucky I had brilliant dogs.Ìý These days I don’t have a dog and I don’t need to do very much independent mobility but it’s just nice to be able to do it when you want to do it and I’m not at all sure that I’m going to be feeling as confident about that.Ìý I certainly wish all the businesses every success in getting back to normal and I very much hope that they will accommodate us appropriately and make the reasonable adjustments that, to be fair, they are legally obliged to make and that, I would say, should include if you go to a café being able to choose where you sit and exactly what assistance you have.

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White

And that issue of legal obligation takes us right back to our first item, so that’s very much been the theme tonight.Ìý Richard and Amanda, thank you both very much indeed.

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And just before we go, during this programme I’ve used the terms blind, visually impaired and partially sighted.Ìý Well, the disability charity, Leonard Cheshire, says, in a new survey, that there’s a preference for visually impaired.Ìý Some people have leapt to the defence of the term blind.Ìý What do you think?Ìý What terminology do you prefer and why?Ìý And who has the authority to recommend what language people use?Ìý Also, next week, we’re going to be talking about inaccessible websites, so do keep your examples of good and bad practice coming in.

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You can email intouch@bbc.co.uk , you can go to our website, that’s bbc.co.uk/intouch from where you can also download tonight’s and previous editions of the programme.

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From me, Peter White, producer Simon Hoban and studio managers Jonathan Esp and Carwyn Griffith.Ìý Goodbye.

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