³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ

Downloaded from www.bbc.co.uk/radio4

Ìý

THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.Ìý BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

Ìý

Ìý

IN TOUCH – Assisted Guidance On London Underground; Audio Description For On-Demand TV

Ìý

TX:Ìý 09.02.2021Ìý 2040-2100

Ìý

PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

Ìý

PRODUCER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý MIKE YOUNG

Ìý

Ìý

White

Good evening.Ìý Tonight, the on again off again helping hand for visually impaired travellers on London’s rail services.Ìý Why does it keep being withdrawn?Ìý Also tonight, the drive to get audio description made available faster on all the box sets that we might fancy an equal opportunity to binge on during lockdown.

Ìý

Clip

The audio describers are clearly working incredibly hard to get this support out but the question remains for the channel – why were those things not prepared before the drop on to the platform, so that visually impaired audiences are not being discriminated against?

Ìý

White

But first, we’ve heard about the problems of the physically assisted guidance on the London Underground and Overground rail services several times during the pandemic.Ìý While all other UK rail operators have been able to keep this much valued service available, Transport for London stopped offering it for eight months.Ìý They did finally bring it back on 23rd November, only to withdraw it again a few weeks later.Ìý At the end of January, it was restored again.Ìý Confusing and exasperating for people.Ìý Well Transport for London’s Chief Customer Officer, Mark Evers, joins me to try to help us sort this out once and for all.

Ìý

Mark, it took you eight months to bring back assisted guidance, only for it to disappear again within weeks, why?

Ìý

Evers

Well, thank you very much for the opportunity to come on and explain the situation.Ìý Firstly, I’d like to start by saying that we do absolutely recognise just how important physical assistance is to independent travel.Ìý So, certainly understand the frustration felt by your listeners and apologise for any inconvenience caused.Ìý The decision to temporarily suspend physical guiding that we took in late December was in light of, I guess, the emergence of the new coronavirus variants that sort of had sort of questions around their transmissibility and sort of significant concerns about the fact that potentially the way that we were managing the service may not have been as effective under these circumstances.Ìý So, for the safety of our customers and our staff we chose to suspend the service so that we could do a proper health and safety assessment.

Ìý

White

But we keep hearing during this pandemic – we follow the science.Ìý I’m not aware that the science has changed at all on this idea of guiding somebody, who’s wearing a mask, a person guiding them wearing a sleeve, both facing in the same direction.Ìý Has there been any change because clearly the other overground services, other rail services in this country, don’t think so because they’ve continued to offer it?

Ìý

Evers

That’s true, they have continued to offer it, however, London Underground differs from the majority of rail networks in the UK with large sections of our service being underground.Ìý And so, we have to take into account the large complex and enclosed nature of the network when assessing whether or not there’s an impact.Ìý So, it was only right that we took on board the new guidance or, at the time, when this was coming out, it was unclear whether there would be new guidance, so we waited for Public Health England and government guidance.Ìý We used that with our health and safety professionals to assess whether or not the mitigations that we had in place were safe and appropriate to ensure that customers and our staff could continue to operate safely.Ìý And I’m pleased to say that that is the case and so hence we were able to reintroduce the service just a week or so ago.

Ìý

White

Because I’m bound to say, that on most overground rail services there is a big underground element.Ìý You know, you go down, you do down steps, you do down passages, the situation’s not that different is it?

Ìý

Evers

Well, I think for large parts of the underground network the tunnel sections are smaller in diameter.Ìý It’s quite a different sort of environment.Ìý Also, the fact that most platforms on the national rail network are exposed outside as well.Ìý So, yes, there are clearly – there are certain elements that are similar but for a large extent it’s different and we felt that it was important to act with safety at the forefront of what we were doing.Ìý Obviously, while the suspension was in place, we continued to provide free fully accessible taxis for customers, so that they could continue their journey to their destination but I do appreciate that there was inconvenience associated with that and for that I am sorry.

Ìý

White

But wouldn’t this all be effective if people did all the things that they should do, i.e., passengers themselves wearing masks and these protective sleeves, which people have told us staff aren’t always wearing when they’re guiding them?

Ìý

Evers

Well, we are working really hard to communicate to all of our staff the processes and to ensure that they understand how to help people and to undertake the physical guidance with safety.Ìý And I’m pleased to say that in the vast majority of instances that is working well.Ìý Where that hasn’t worked as well, I’d sort of invite your listeners to get in touch with us and to let us know, so that we can go about making those improvements.Ìý We continue to brief our staff and to make sure that they’re confident in the processes.Ìý Certainly, as you say, we encourage everyone who is able to wear a face covering must do so on the public transport network.

Ìý

White

Now we did ask RMT, the union which represents rail workers with you, for their attitude to this.Ìý At the time of recording, we’ve yet to hear from them but they have made it clear, in press releases and in a letter to your commissioner, the commissioner for Transport for London, that they’re unhappy with the attitude of TFL to their members’ safety.Ìý Are visually impaired people actually being caught up in the fallout of a dispute between the union and yourselves?

Ìý

Evers

No, I don’t believe so.Ìý I think that what is really important is that it’s understandable why a trade union will want to ensure that we are properly risk assessing our procedures, so that the safety of their membership, our employees and our people, is looked after.Ìý Really important that we make sure that our customer safety is looked after.Ìý So, that was why we took the decision to suspend the service, so that we could do that proper assessment and that’s why we’ve taken the decision to reinstitute that really important service because we’re confident that we can undertake it safely.

Ìý

White

So, is this here back to stay now?Ìý I mean it’s very tough on blind people to have these arrangements constantly changing, it’s bound to erode confidence for people if when you travel you can’t be sure of what you’re actually going to find at your station.

Ìý

Evers

So, I, again, can only apologise for that inconvenience and we do understand just how important the physical guiding is to enabling independent travel for some of our customers.Ìý What I can’t do though, unfortunately, is give any guarantee because as we’ve seen over the last 10 months or so, this has been a constantly changing environment and what we’ll continue to do is to understand what the risks are, to assess how we can provide the best possible service we can for our customers, whilst ensuring that both our customers and staff stay safe.

Ìý

White

Mark Evers, thank you very much.

Ìý

Evers

Thank you.

Ìý

White

Now, before I move on from all things rail related, an update on tactile paving or the lack of it at railway stations.Ìý Now, tactile paving was introduced to make it very clear to a visually impaired passenger exactly where the edge of a platform was.Ìý But a few weeks ago, we reported on In Touch that more than one third of the total length of the UK’s rail platforms were still without it.Ìý Lib Dem member of the London Assembly, Caroline Pidgeon, had found this out after making a Freedom of Information request to Network Rail, which owns and manages much of the railway network.Ìý Well Caroline’s team has been in contact with us again.Ìý

Ìý

Sir Peter Hendy, he’s the Chairman of Network Rail, has now written to them saying that they want all operational platforms to be fully tactile by March 2029.Ìý Well, that’s still eight years away.Ìý Not soon enough, you may think.Ìý Caroline certainly does.Ìý We’ll be returning to this issue in the next few weeks.

Ìý

And also, more information on another issue, which we intend to keep you informed about.Ìý As we reported last week the calls keep growing for visually impaired people to be given raised priority when it comes to getting a covid vaccination.Ìý Well now Guide Dogs, the RNIB and the Thomas Pocklington Trust have written to the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation and they make the case that people with sight loss should be prioritised when the vaccine rollout reaches its second phase in the remaining population, after the age related and clinically vulnerable groups have been vaccinated.Ìý Well, we’ll monitor closely if anything comes of that.

Ìý

And now, the thorny issue of the availability of audio description is something that we’ve often featured on In Touch over the years but despite more programmes than ever being audio described it still seems that broadcasters are often not getting it quite right.

Ìý

Our reporter, Johnny Cassidy has been looking into this for us.Ìý And Johnny you’ve been looking at audio description when it comes to the box sets that we might fancy enjoying at one or two sittings.

Ìý

Cassidy

That’s right Peter.Ìý You’ll be aware that increasingly when a new series of a programme comes out many broadcasters will make all episodes available to download or to stream all at once, so you don’t have to watch one episode at a time when they are broadcast each week.Ìý Now, that’s absolutely fantastic when you want to binge on a series and let’s face it who hasn’t done a bit of that during lockdown.Ìý The issue, however, is that for those of us who rely on audio description we are not being given that luxury along with everyone else.Ìý Now Tony Whitelaw, who’s from Bristol, he got in touch to vent his frustrations with some of the programmes available on the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ iPlayer.

Ìý

Whitelaw

I realised some time last year that the audio described versions of programmes were not appearing in iPlayer at the same time as the normal un-audio described versions.Ìý So you’d get a programme which is broadcast, for instance, and the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ will advertise that all versions of a series is on iPlayer and then I would look on iPlayer to watch all of them, like everybody else can, and I saw that only those programmes that had actually been broadcast were available in audio described.

Ìý

Cassidy

So, Tony got in touch with the iPlayer team to let them know about his frustrations but suffice to say he didn’t get very far.

Ìý

Whitelaw

Their initial response was oh thank you very much, we’ve noted the issue, we’ll pass it on and we’ll look at it trying to be resolved.Ìý No explanation of why the situation exists or what the reasoning is and, more importantly, what steps they were going to take to resolve the issue.Ìý Because this is an issue really about quality of access, where audio described versions of things are created and do exist, they really should be made available at the same time as non-audio described versions on iPlayer I believe.

Ìý

White

So, all a bit bland and unsatisfactory Johnny.Ìý You chased up on Tony’s behalf for him.

Ìý

Cassidy

I did.Ìý I also spoke to the iPlayer team to see what they had to say about Tony’s frustrations and they agreed that the current system wasn’t ideal but said that they were working hard to make audio description available for more titles and box sets when they are published on the iPlayer.

Ìý

White

What is the problem here then?Ìý I mean is it a technical issue or is it something else?

Ìý

Cassidy

In a way it is a technical issue.Ìý It seems that audio description is still very much tied to the traditional broadcast model, when a show goes out on ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ 1, for example.Ìý Now I spoke to Neil Reading, who is the current chair of the Audio Description Association, who explained to me more about the process.

Ìý

Reading

Some TV shows are made right up to the minute and you are seeing soap operas, dramas, you are seeing them on television only a couple of days after the edit has been completed and, in those scenarios, yes, it is difficult to get an audio describer in to do the work at that kind of speed.Ìý So, it’s very hard to say whether it’s appropriate or not but I think on a linear drama that’s being released on a weekly schedule, where things are available Friday and the following Friday and the following Friday, audio description, you know, there’s no reason it can’t keep up with that and it wouldn’t be a problem.Ìý This immediate problem seems to be when channels are following the old school linear structure of this TV show is being shown on this day of the week every day of the week but also, are dropping the entire series for streaming services or download services.Ìý If they’re doing that the programme’s completed, all five episodes are finished, nobody’s editing those shows right now.Ìý So, it would suggest, to me, that the audio description has been left too late in that process.

Ìý

Cassidy

Now I should point out that it’s not just the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ which operates in this manner.Ìý One of Channel 4’s big hits at the moment is the Russel T. Davis programme It’s a Sin.

Ìý

Clip – It’s a Sin

Have you seen this?Ìý

Ìý

There are boys dying, all over the world and no one knows anything.

Ìý

Do you seriously think there’s an illness that only kills gay men?Ìý I don’t believe it.

Ìý

Now hit me with those lasers please.

Ìý

Music

Ìý

Went into hospital, ambulance.

Ìý

Shame on you.

Ìý

You loved your son.Ìý What’s wrong with that?

Ìý

Do you think I should [indistinct word].

Ìý

I’ve got some news for you.

Ìý

Music

Ìý

I’m going to live.

Ìý

Music

Ìý

Cassidy

All episodes of the box set landed at once on their All4 on demand service but just like many of the programmes highlighted by Tony on the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ iPlayer only the first episode had audio description.Ìý Now Neil Reading from the ADA, he believes that this is because Channel 4 are also tied to the traditional broadcast schedule but thinks that questions need to be asked about why things like this keep happening.

Ìý

Reading

Now it may well be that Channel 4 only completed the final cut of It’s a Sin, all five episodes, the day before they dropped it on to the On Demand service, and given the current situation that we’re working in that’s very, very possible and so the audio describers are now working as quickly as possible to catch up.Ìý And it seems to be that way because I know a few days ago it was only episode one that was available with audio description, now episode two is available with audio description so that the audio describers are clearly working incredibly hard to get this support out.Ìý But the question remains for the channel – why were those things not prepared before the drop on to the platform, so that visually impaired audiences are not being discriminated against.

Ìý

White

So, what did Channel 4 have to say about that Johnny?

Ìý

Cassidy

Well Channel 4 were keen to point out that they outperform all other broadcasters when it comes to audio description and they also told me that all episodes of It’s a Sin would soon be available with AD, which indeed they now all are.Ìý And maybe I should just a word here about other services like Netflix, which don’t have a traditional channel to broadcast programmes on.Ìý The Netflix website highlights that audio description won’t be available for all seasons and episodes but that they are always working with studios to make more available for more titles.

Ìý

White

It does sound a bit, doesn’t it, as if the technology’s there and maybe sometimes it’s the will that isn’t, would you say that’s fair?

Ìý

Cassidy

Absolutely.Ìý I do think that there is a bit of an embarrassment as to why things like this happen.Ìý Neil Reading, when he spoke to me, he said, we heard the audio there, it shouldn’t be happening and it just seems that when audio description is tied to this traditional broadcast schedule that’s when audio description gets made.Ìý But, as we understand, increasingly, everything’s available at once and there’s no reason why those of us who use audio description shouldn’t have the same privilege as everybody else.

Ìý

White

Absolutely.Ìý So, what have you been binging on this lockdown then in particular?

Ìý

Cassidy
It’s a Sin now that all episodes are available.Ìý Funnily enough, I’ve been going back to some old comedies that are on the iPlayer.Ìý Also, Auf Wiedersehen, Pet…

Ìý

White

Are you?Ìý You have been going back a long way.

Ìý

Cassidy

Yeah, and suffice to say there’s no audio description available for that.Ìý But things weren’t available with AD back then but there’s absolutely no excuse when they are available now that they shouldn’t all drop at the same time as all the other episodes of a box set.

Ìý

White

Okay.Ìý I’m still trying to catch up with the Crown.Ìý Johnny Cassidy, thank you very much indeed.Ìý And do tell us of any audio description issues that you have; we want to hear about them.

Ìý

And that’s it for this week.Ìý Do let us know about anything in the programme that you want to comment on, our email is intouch@bbc.co.uk.Ìý And you can go to our website for additional information or indeed to listen again to tonight’s and previous programmes.

Ìý

That’s it from me, Peter White, producer Mike Young and studio managers Chris Hardman and Carwyn Griffith.Ìý Goodbye.