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IN TOUCH – Scotland bans parking on pavements

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TX:Ìý 15.10.2019Ìý 2040-2100

PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

PRODUCER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý LEE KUMUTAT

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White

Good evening.Ìý The car parked slap bang in the middle of the pavement – the hazard blind people have had to put up with for decades.Ìý But is Scotland now showing the way?

While in Wales…

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Clip

When they’re doing deliveries…

Ìý

In the morning?Ìý What time is that?

Ìý

Six, between – well five and nine.

Ìý

Yeah, you just get a lot of racket?

Ìý

Yeah.

Ìý

Yeah.Ìý Makes it difficult to sleep.

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White

The man who’s been sharing the noises of the night with the rough sleepers of Cardiff.

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Last Thursday, the Scottish Parliament passed a bill which will gladden the hearts of many visually impaired people – it bans vehicles from parking on the pavement.Ìý This has been the subject of many campaigns over the years by organisations representing blind people, some local authorities throughout the UK have by-laws placing restrictions on parking on pavements but enforcement has always been patchy at best.

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This is the first nationwide ban in the UK.Ìý Living Streets is one of the groups that’s been pressing for this for over a decade, alongside disability organisations.Ìý Joe Irvin is their chief executive.Ìý He told me more about what the ban covers.

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Irvin

What it says is it will be an offence for a vehicle to park on the pavement unless there is a clear indication, a clear signage, to show that it’s a designated space for that.Ìý So, in nearly all cases, there will be a ban right across Scotland.

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White

I mean just what might be designated spaces where things – it will be okay for them to park?

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Irvin

If you look at London, where there’s been a ban on pavement parking since the 1970s, it’s the one part of the UK where that has been in place, what they do is they mark off places.Ìý What we’re very keen to see is if they do mark off a place it’s only if it’s a necessary provision and that there is space left on the pavement for people to get by, including people, for example, in a wheelchair or with a guide dog.

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White

One of the problems has always been enforcement, so that, for example, you wouldn’t know there was a parking ban in London if you walk around it, as I have done over the years.

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Irvin

Well it’s a bit better in London than the rest of the country but you’re right, enforcement’s an issue.Ìý I recently saw a lorry completely blocking a pavement next to Moorfield’s Eye Hospital, which is almost unbelievable that somebody would be as inconsiderate as to do that, it’s mindless to do it.Ìý And I think drivers just sometimes don’t realise what a problem it is, they don’t think.Ìý And so, I think part of what we’re seeking in Scotland and hopefully if this is followed in the rest of the UK, is education of drivers to really understand the problem that they’re causing, that people might be forced to step out into traffic because their pavement passage is blocked.

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White

But are there any specific assurances that this law will be treated any differently than in other parts of the UK, particularly as far as enforcement’s concerned?

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Irvin

Well we’re going to work with the Scottish government to do the guidance on this, which is coming up and so are many groups who particularly represent people with disabilities.Ìý Guide Dogs has worked with us on this for years.Ìý I think because it’s a nationwide ban in Scotland it’s really quite different, it’s really been publicised, people know about this, people know it’s happening and very optimistic that they’ll be a big push to make people understand about this in Scotland.

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White

What about penalties Joe?

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Irvin

So, the penalties in London are £70 for an offence but I think it’s not the penalty, it’s just the likelihood of being caught, if you like, that is the thing that puts people off.Ìý So, a bit of education, so people understand they don’t do it in ignorance but also some proper enforcement.Ìý The key to that actually is the police as so busy on other things it’s very hard to get them to enforce this and what we think you need is local authorities empowered, so local authority traffic wardens, if you like, to look after this, then we’ll get better enforcement we think.

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White

Now you haven’t got everything you wanted here, there are exemptions – tell me about those.

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Irvin

Well the one that we’re most concerned about is there’s an exemption for deliveries where delivery vehicles can stop on the pavement for up to 20 minutes.Ìý You can imagine people might abuse that…

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White

Yeah, I mean that’s the question isn’t it – how are you going to prove that somebody’s been there, there will be all sorts of arguments about when they arrived and how long they’ve been there etc.

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Irvin

True.Ìý And also, they shouldn’t be there in the first place.Ìý So, if there was a designated bay or whatever for deliveries that’s one thing and that’s okay and everybody would understand that but just to turn up and go – well, yeah, I’m doing a delivery – is not really on.Ìý So, we try – we supported amendments to this, they weren’t successful but we’ll keep working on that and we’ll keep working in the guidance, along with groups that represent people with disabilities, in particular, to try and improve on that and close that loophole in the future.

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White

Why do you think it’s taken so long to get something done about a nuisance which irritates so many people and of course can be dangerous, very dangerous?

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Irvin

Yeah, that’s a very difficult question to answer.Ìý There’s a lot of inertia to get over in this sort of area.Ìý I mean we had to campaign, along with Guide Dogs, we had private members bills running in the – a few years ago.Ìý We had one just to show that Scotland had the authority to do what it’s done this last week and introduce something for Scotland.Ìý We got an amendment to the Scotland Bill in 2016 to just clarify that Scotland had the power to do this.Ìý So, in transport you often have to kind of push uphill on this.Ìý And I guess at the bottom of it politicians have a fear of a backlash from motorists.Ìý And it’s one that I think is very little founded because if you look at all the polling we’ve done, or guide dogs or the British Parking Association or the Local Government Association or the Scottish government actually most people support this.

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White

There are planning issues as well though, aren’t there, because it’s – people will say well there are so few places we can park, that’s what makes people do it.

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Irvin

Part of the fundamental problem is that in the 1970s we had 20 million vehicles registered in the UK, we now have 38 million.Ìý So, it’s kind of not surprising that there are pressures on parking.Ìý Our position is that pavements are for people and people with vehicles are going to have to find ways to park in a proper way and a way that doesn’t obstruct people from getting by on the pavement.

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White

Now one of the big concerns of visually impaired people is shared spaces, what’s your view on that?

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Irvin

I’m not going to say there are no places where it can work.Ìý You know what it depends on?Ìý It depends on how busy the places are and it depends on how wide it is and what the space is and what the design is.Ìý But critically, those shared spaces which are shared with motor vehicles rarely work in my opinion.Ìý So, I think it was right for the government to put a pause on shared space development, as it was called, and they’ve been pausing on that until they can get better guidance on it.Ìý So, I can see places, maybe in rural areas or not so busy, where there are maybe bicycles and people walking side by side but I think most places where you’re sharing with motor vehicles it’s very difficult if you can’t see properly.

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White

Joe Irvin, chief executive of Living Streets UK.

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The ban comes into force in 2021, so until then it’s still mind how you go.

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Now talking of campaigning Hugh Huddy’s is a voice we hear from time to time on In Touch but usually in his role as a lobbyist on the rights of blind and partially sighted people.Ìý But his latest venture into radio is a far more personal one.Ìý A documentary called Hearing ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖlessness broadcast here on Radio 4 and still available on ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ Sounds.Ìý

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It’s a haunting immersive soundscape of what people living on the street hear at night when the rest of us are warm and secure indoors.Ìý Hugh told me how his documentary had come about.

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Huddy

I’ve always been someone who listens to the world, I’m really interested in everyone’s relationship to sound and what it means to us.Ìý And I have, over the years, tripped over quite a few people on the street.Ìý It just happens, if you’re visually impaired you’re shore lining along the wall and then you come across someone’s feet and it’s an awkward moment, I think we can all identify with that moment.

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White

Well I’ve done it myself, walking along Regent Street in London quite often and I’ve almost got to know a few of them, so I think I see where you’re going with this but carry on.

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Huddy

Yeah, and I get chatting to people because when it’s raining and it’s cold there’s that moment where you’re thinking – should I give some money.Ìý And I heard something from one of the big homelessness charities that said, no, give some time.Ìý And I took that to heart and I sat down and just got chatting to people, just realised you can do that.Ìý And I think that was the moment of liberation for me, it was a moment when I suddenly realised I could be a useful person in society by being useful to other people.

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White

And it is about sounds isn’t it, I mean you’re really starting right from beginning of the documentary.

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Clip Hearing ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖlessness

Motorway flyovers are constructed in concrete sections.Ìý How could the drivers know they’re hermetically sealed, unaware of the sound their tyres are making?Ìý Unaware, someone below may be sleeping.

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Right from the beginning that’s the sound of me sitting underneath a Bristol flyover and that’s a place where one of the people I met, Jamila, slept for days, without even a blanket.Ìý So, I went there and recorded the sound of it to see what sort of effect does it have on me emotionally and the programme is a lot about emotion.

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White

What was your goal, what were you trying to achieve with this?

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Huddy

I’m trying to bring everyone into that sound world of what it’s like if you’re homeless and street homeless.Ìý So much of the sounds we hear on radio is about sounds to enjoy, so wildlife and things that are beautiful and things we can all appreciate.Ìý I wanted to look at sound from the other side of the coin, so sound when it is perhaps dangerous, when it’s emotionally difficult and when you’re immersed in it and it actually defines your life.

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White

I used the word immersive in the introduction to it but you – and that was very deliberate wasn’t it, you recorded it in a particular way, can you explain?

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Huddy

Yes, it’s recorded in binaural audio, which is very high quality and very tiny microphones that you put in your ear.Ìý So, instead of listening to the sound through ear buds, which lots of people will be used to using, they’re actually microphones and they record from the perspective of your own hearing.Ìý It enables you to record as if you’re – well – there.Ìý I mean that might sound – whoa, what’s going on here.Ìý If you put headphones on then it means that the little speaker that the headphone is made of is pretty well exactly where the microphone recorded the sound, which means the signals arrive at your ear and cause your brain to interpret the sounds as if you’re actually there.Ìý And that’s the powerful aspect of binaural or surround sound recording techniques.

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White

I was going to ask you – in the encounters you’d had beforehand, before you did the programme, I was wondering how you were treated, this person who came along and trampled through their small worldly goods and fell over them?

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Huddy

Yeah, I accidentally kicked somebody’s money box over once, you might have done that yourself…

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White

Yeah, gone right through it.

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Huddy

…I felt so bad about doing that and I was bent down trying to pick the money up and someone passing me said – don’t bother doing that.Ìý And I thought, what on earth is happening to us, I’m trying to help someone.Ìý And I thought that this is an interesting way of just sort of overcoming my own visual impairment and being seen by other people as constantly sort of just struggling along all the time.Ìý And I took this as an opportunity just to turn into someone who was useful, someone who’s interesting to other people.Ìý I don’t think being visually impaired makes you uniquely a good fit to doing this kind of stuff but I found it seemed to and I heard from someone, they said – you know, the thing about your white stick is it’s very disarming, we don’t feel threatened by you, so we feel we can talk to you.Ìý And I think that that really does come out in the programme. ÌýI had conversations that were so intimate with people I’d never met before and I think it helped the programme speak about these people and their lives, it let me in.

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Clip Hearing ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖlessness

You know I think when you’re asleep your body knows that and that’s why it shakes yourself into a wake mode, they do, because the body – it does it without even bloody realising.

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[Indistinct words], the body’s on edge.

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Like you go into a deep sleep your body’s [indistinct words], you know what I mean.

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[Bottle smashing]

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And I think also I couldn’t see people’s facial expressions so perhaps I just motored on with a conversation even if they were given me please don’t talk to me about this and I carried on but I did it in a disarming way and so they just probably told me things that perhaps they ordinarily wouldn’t or felt, you know, maybe he is interested.Ìý And I really was deeply interested in finding out what their auditory experience was of living on the streets.

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White

And did you come back to some people because they were telling you an interesting story or…?

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Huddy

That was really hard.Ìý What I discovered was people, street homeless, they recognise you and these stories can often be very different the next time you meet, so there’s a lack of coherence.Ìý And that’s what making this programme actually very difficult because this is what we discovered, memory seems to be bound in in the chaos of the street and therefore memory is chaotic as well, people’s memory of what happened to them within the last month even is quite chaotic.Ìý And so, it’s not the same sort of biographical memory you get talking to someone else.

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White

And presumably, to be frank, some of them will be on using various substances, some will have had a fair bit to drink?

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Huddy

Yes, I think probably most people I spoke to were on a very strong substance, yes, of one kind of another and my responsibility that I felt was not to walk away.

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White

And on the specific business of the sounds, were they the sounds you expected, what were the surprises perhaps that you got?

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Huddy

It’s that beauty can be inside out.Ìý Something like listening to a street cleaning machine – they immediately generate a sense within me of I need to really work out what to do now because this could be a messy incident if I don’t judge this right.Ìý Now that’s something we experience every day.Ìý And I was interested to know that I shared that experience with people who were homeless because if you’re asleep and you hear something like that coming and especially if your senses are dulled by having to sort ofÌý medicate, is the term people often use, against the cold because they’re sleeping in such unpleasant conditions, that your reaction times are not the same and you have the sound of these machines around you at 5 o’clock in the morning.Ìý And breaking glass, I mean I’ve not heard so much breaking glass in all my life going out recording this, the streets are alive with the sound of smashing bottles at 5 o’clock in the morning and I didn’t realise that that could have a kind of interest to me and it made me realise that this is the physical manifestation of the difficulty that people are actually facing.

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Clip Hearing ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖlessness

[Breaking bottles]

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White

And the sound was a big part of what people talked to you about, I would have expected people to be talking about the cold and the fact that, as you said, they are unpleasant conditions and so forth, but they talked to you a lot about the sounds that they heard.

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Huddy

I have to let you into a secret, that was about after two and a half hours of talking.Ìý Most people don’t feel comfortable about talking about sound.Ìý When I pitched this programme to the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ if I’d only realised that getting people to talk honestly about sound was a really difficult thing to do…

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White

But I’m feeling really surprised at that, explain a bit…

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Huddy

I think most people don’t under… when you say what it’s like on the street, what do you hear, the conversation is – well, it’s horrible – and that’s it.Ìý And so, you need to develop a relationship with that person, talking about their life and about what’s important to them to be able to say why it is broken bottles is horrible or why the sound of street machines at 5.00 am is affecting them and it’s because they’re trying to get some sleep then because that’s actually when the light’s coming in the summertime and when they feel safer to sleep and it’s actually the worst time to be trying to get to sleep when the clubs have emptied out.Ìý So, getting people to talk about that stuff you have to get quite into a conversation and I didn’t want to just talk superficially about sound because I think that would have been voyeuristic.

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White

What’s your lasting impression of the experience?

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Huddy

I’m only just starting to understand how you can use sound to understand other people’s lives.Ìý And the visual impairment I’ve got, it enables you to get an understanding of the world from someone else’s perspective but you both share this relationship with what you hear.Ìý And I do feel, I’m really pleased about this, that I managed to escape from the stereotypes, I don’t feel I got ensnared in any of the stereotypes about being a blind person.

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White

Is there something you’ve taken away from this experience, something you’ve perhaps learnt about yourself maybe?

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Huddy

Yeah, I think so many things.Ìý I think it’s this relationship about being in the environment.Ìý You don’t have to be able to see it to be fully in it.Ìý The physical and sound relationship that I was able to be within and being guide through it by people who were homeless, who weren’t visually impaired, it did, in many ways, help release me from this idea that you do have to be able to see to have a 100% deep experience with the world.

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White

Hugh Huddy’s documentary is called Hearing ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖlessness, it’s a marvellous listen.

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And that’s it for today.Ìý We welcome your comments, as always, you can leave a voice message on 0161 8361338.Ìý Email intouch@bbc.co.uk or go to our website, that’s bbc.co.uk/intouch where you can find an extended podcast of tonight’s programme with more of our interview with Hugh Huddy.Ìý From me, Peter White, producer Lee Kumutat and the team, goodbye.