成人快手

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IN TOUCH 鈥� Delays to Access to Work; Guide dogs guide a visually impaired runner in half marathon

TX:听 26.03.2019听 2040-2100

PRESENTER:听 听听听听听听听听 PETER WHITE

PRODUCER:听 听听听听听听听听听听 TOM WALKER

听

White

Good evening.听 Tonight, spot the disability minister, as we continue to wait for one to be appointed the government鈥檚 accused of undermining the role.听 The visually impaired woman still waiting months after an interview for the tools to do her job.听 And a new role for guide dogs.

听

Clip

To be honest with you, with sighted guides as kind as they are to get you through the race, I have to say that there have been many instances where I鈥檝e woken up in the morning and I鈥檝e wanted to go out for a run and I鈥檝e had to hunt for a guide.

听

White

And we鈥檒l hear more about the running dogs later in the programme.

听

But first, a little quiz for you 鈥� whose is the missing name:听 Maria Miller, Esther McVey, Mike Penning, Mark Harper, Justin Tomlinson, Penny Mordaunt, Sarah Newton?听 Well there isn鈥檛 one and that鈥檚 the problem.听 Those were the names of the seven ministers for disabled people that we鈥檝e had over a period of under nine years.听 And minister number eight, after the resignation of Sarah Newton nearly a fortnight ago, has still not been named.

听

Richard Kramer, Chief Executive of Sense, which represents people with complex disabilities, including those who are both deaf and blind, is angry, not only about the delay but also about the rapid change of personnel.

听

Kramer

Yeah, we have been concerned that we鈥檝e now had the fifth minister for disabled people since 2013.听 We鈥檝e now had 11 days pass with no indication when the new minister will be appointed.听 So, that begs the question whether government see this as an important post to fill.听 Is it a sufficient priority for them?听 And in any event, it鈥檚 causing huge uncertainty for the 13.9 million disabled people who want a dedicated minister.

听

White

And it isn鈥檛 just this immediate appointment that you鈥檙e critical of, I think, it鈥檚 a more general attitude.

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Kramer

Well there is a concern about the rate of churn, the number of ministers we鈥檝e had, it takes time to understand the needs of disabled people and actually it鈥檚 issues that straggle across a whole range of government departments.听 So, it鈥檚 not just a minister for disabled people representing the DWP, we want them to have a close interest in welfare reform, in social care, in employment, in housing and so on.听 And we need a minister that takes a broader perspective.

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White

Do you think perhaps there鈥檚 sometimes a tendency for us to overstate the powers of ministers?听 After all, in the end, decisions over money available, which is what a lot of these issues come back to, they come back to the Treasury don鈥檛 they?

听

Kramer

They do come back to the Treasury but also, we want a minister to champion issues across government and recognise that an important decision in one area can have an impact on another policy area.听 So, it鈥檚 all very well saying we want to get more people into work but if there鈥檚 something wrong in relation to access to work that needs tackling the two need to be looked at together and if they鈥檙e not and if there鈥檚 no minister looking at the connections between government policies people will suffer.

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White

You could argue that the government generally does have rather a lot on its plate at the moment, is 11 days delay over a ministerial appointment really that significant, do you think?

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Kramer

Well I don鈥檛 think Brexit can be a distraction from the challenges facing disabled people.听 And at the moment there鈥檚 a lot that needs to be looked at.听 We鈥檝e got social care in crisis, we鈥檙e still waiting now, two years on, for the publication of the Green Paper on Social Care.听 We鈥檝e had an announcement on combining assessments for different disability benefits.听 We鈥檝e got challenges with Access to Work that needs to be worked through.听 So, there are many burning issues that need to be looked at and we can鈥檛 really have a gap and we can鈥檛 really carry on without a minister for disabled people.

听

White

Richard Kramer of SENSE.

听

Well we did approach the Department for Work and Pensions about this, they told us it was a matter for the Prime Minister鈥檚 office, so we asked them.听 At the time of recording this programme we haven鈥檛 had a reply.

听

We also approached the Department for Work and Pensions over a month ago about the case of Kerry Fielding and then we asked, also, for an interview with the then minister.听 We were told she wasn鈥檛 available.听 Well as you鈥檝e heard, Sarah Newton鈥檚 now no longer the person to talk to but Kerry鈥檚 problem remains unresolved.听 She was interviewed for a job at a call centre back in October, which she got, but as April approaches she鈥檚 still not working.听 She blames a cumbersome process at Access to Work which involves an organisation to recommend someone to assess her needs, another organisation to do that assessment and a third to carry out the work that鈥檚 needed.听 None of those organisations are part of the Department for Work and Pensions, who administer the Access to Work programme.听 The result delay after delay.听

Kerry鈥檚 been telling me more of her story.

听

Fielding

I applied for a job as a customer service advisor working for the Post Office with a company called HGS, who are an outsourcing company.听 They provide customer service for lots of different companies, like Nespresso, L鈥橭r茅al and the Post Office is one of them.

听

White

And what were the things that you would need, what was the kind of equipment you鈥檇 need to do the job they wanted you to do?

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Fielding

In order to do the job, I would need JAWS for Windows, which is a screen reading program, it鈥檚 a piece of software that you put on a computer so that it reads any text based information, either input or output, on the computer screen because I have no useful vision at all.

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White

So, the first issue was to get funding for that, so what happened as far as your funding was concerned?

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Fielding

I applied for funding on the 9th November, last year, and I filled in an online form and about a week later I got a call from an Access to Work advisor who went through my application with me and then basically told me that I would be receiving a call from a company called RBLI, who would conduct my Access to Work assessment based on my job that I was doing and the information that I had also given.

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White

So, it鈥檚 not the DWP who鈥檚 actually handling this, it is this other company?

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Fielding

Yes.

听

White

So 鈥� and then what happened?

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Fielding

I heard nothing from them at all.听 And my case was actually shutdown in the beginning of December because apparently Access to Work had no confirmation of a start date.

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White

But you knew when that start date was?

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Fielding

Yes, I had a letter with a conditional offer with my start date on it.

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White

So, what was the effect of shutting down your case at the beginning of December?

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Fielding

The effect of shutting down was that my employer and I decided that we wouldn鈥檛 pursue it until after Christmas.听 So, I ended up phoning them back on the 7th January to reopen my case, as I assumed, because that鈥檚 what I鈥檇 been told, only to be informed that my case had actually been closed and I would have to reapply all over again.听 And once I had I could expect a 15-day delay before I heard from an Access to Work advisor because it was due to the backlog of the Christmas period.

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White

So, at this stage you have no assessment for the equipment that you need?

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Fielding

None.

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White

And then how long did that process take to get restarted?

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Fielding

I heard from an advisor about two weeks later.听 They informed me that I would be hearing from RBLI, yet again, and they would set up the assessment time with me at my place of work.

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White

And did that happen?

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Fielding

It did, yes, only the company that actually did the assessment, when I received the text message from them to say they were going to come, was actually Right 2 Write, who I believe are a company who specialise in dyslexia.

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White

So, presumably the point you鈥檙e making is how much do they know actually about visual impairment, which is a different kettle of fish altogether.

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Fielding

Yes.听 I think it鈥檚 very fair to say that I got what I got from the assessment because I knew what I needed.

听

White

So, having had the assessment you then have to get the equipment in the right form that you need it to be?

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Fielding

I got the JAWS for Windows, I got the refreshable braille display.听 It was recommended that I have a scripting assessment because the applications that I was going to work with would not work fully with JAWS, the screen reading software.听 So, part of the report which I received stated three companies who could do this scripting assessment, one of which was Online Ergonomics and when they were contacted it turns out that they don鈥檛 even provide that service.

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White

And where did that name come from?

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Fielding

The assessor who conducted my initial assessment from Right 2 Write.

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White

So, really that assessment was a waste of time?

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Fielding

Yes, some equipment that I needed I didn鈥檛 get.

听

White

But you do now have someone who is able to give you the equipment you want in the form that it鈥檚 going to be useful to you?

听

Fielding

Yes, so we鈥檙e slightly further on but now more funding is needed to get the rest of the assessment done, they then need to script this whole thing and see how many days that鈥檚 going to take.听 So, there鈥檚 potentially two more lots of funding that I need.

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White

So, what鈥檚 been the attitude of your prospective employer while all this has been going on?

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Fielding

HGS have been phenomenal and they鈥檝e just been so patient.

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White

Would it not have been possible for you to start work with them anyway while all this bureaucracy was going on and solve the problems as you went along?

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Fielding

No, I couldn鈥檛 have done it because everything is computer based.

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White

What鈥檚 your reaction to this whole process?

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Fielding

I think it鈥檚 shambolic.听 The whole passing the assessment from DWP to RBLI to Right 2 Write, who clearly 鈥� they鈥檙e not specialists when it comes to visual impairment.听 It鈥檚 crazy.听 It鈥檚 not just about money, it鈥檚 about people鈥檚 lives, they鈥檙e preventing people from getting into work.听 I鈥檓 just fortunate that the job I am going for is one that they have campaigns on a regular basis.

听

White

Kerry Fielding.

听

Well despite the passage of more than a month since our original request to the DWP they鈥檝e stuck with the statement they gave us then.听 They say, they鈥檙e sorry that Miss Fielding鈥檚 experience of Access to Work fell short of the high standards they expect and they go on to say: 鈥淥ur latest research shows that Access to Work provides invaluable workplace support for disabled people, empowering people and building their confidence so that they can go on as far as their talents will take them.鈥�

听

We also spoke to Right 2 Write, the assessor Kerry mentioned, they told us that their assessors do have extensive experience of training people with a wide range of disabilities, including visual impairment.

听

Now we鈥檝e heard quite a bit recently on this programme about the sterling work of guide runners, who鈥檝e helped many blind people get fit and indeed take part in the ever-increasing number of marathons which are now popular.听 But could there be another solution?听 In the hands of the likes of Waffles, Wesley and Gus.听 They鈥檙e three guide dogs and they鈥檝e just assisted Thomas Panek to take part in the United New York Half Marathon without human help.听 And if you鈥檙e thinking 鈥� well that鈥檚 not what I thought guide dogs were for you鈥檇 better take it up with the runner, who also happens to be president and chief executive of Guiding Eyes for the Blind, a well-established provider of guide dogs in the United States.听 Thomas explained why he鈥檇 pressed Waffles, Wesley and Gus into service.

听

Panek

I was at the start line of the Boston Marathon and several of the people at the start line of the visually impaired championships asked me if it鈥檚 possible to train a guide dog to run and I said, you know, it鈥檚 something that鈥檚 been on my mind but it鈥檚 never been done before.听 And that was the idea and the origination.

听

White

But you mentioned the kind of disapproval that there used to be about the idea, have you not had any of that this time, don鈥檛 people suggest maybe that this isn鈥檛 the proper use for a guide dog or it鈥檚 trivialising the guide dog?

听

Panek

No, not at all.听 I think that the biggest risk to the dog鈥檚 health is obesity and I have to say that throughout this adventure I haven鈥檛 had anyone tell me that it trivialises the guide dog.听 As a matter of fact, quite the opposite.听 On a familiar route with the right training protocols and the right equipment, we have a running harness and they do wear their own running shoes, actually quite the opposite.听 I think that limiting people who are blind or visually impaired to just walking with their dog is somewhat discriminatory frankly.

听

White

Running shoes 鈥� what do they wear?

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Panek

They do wear a specially designed boot that is fitted to the dog鈥檚 feet and we do have like a sock that we put on their foot, which we wrap around, that we only use one time, then we slide the boot over the front booties and they have their boots, they have their running shoes and it protects their feet.听 Here in the winters of New York when we鈥檙e training, we use a lot of salt for the roads and that can be very abrasive to a dog鈥檚 paws, so it protects them.听 But we noticed that the dogs actually run faster with the shoes on than without them.

听

White

Now just explain a bit about the training programme because you use three dogs in this race, but how did the training work?

听

Panek

So, did the dogs train on the actual route, they started doing Prospect Park, which is a park here in Brooklyn and then we also trained Central Park, which was the completion, the 1.7-mile finish line.听 But the area in between those two locations they did not actually train on the streets of New York.听 Of course, they鈥檙e open to regular day-to-day traffic so we were not able to do that.听 We did some simulation, where we put cones up in a park and have them 鈥� for example, at one point during the race Wesley had to do a 180 and go around cones and then double back and we could hear the elite runners running, I could hear them to my left, having done the 180 already, I knew it would be a very hard left as we went around that turn.听 So, we did simulate the course but we didn鈥檛 actually train on the course itself in its entirety, we just did a couple of pieces of it.听 I took the dogs home and they became part of the family.听 We took Waffle home for an extended period of time, and then we took Wesley home for an extended period of time and of course Gus, the third dog, was already my guide dog for the past five years, so we had really bonded over that period of time and in fact that鈥檚 how we ran the race.听 Wesley started out for the first five miles and he just stayed steady throughout the first five miles of the race and then Waffle 鈥� so we took her on the transition point at the five mile mark and then the bond with Gus, which was the strongest, was the dog that we used in the most complex area of the city which was downtown Manhattan and through Central Park and he was very familiar with working that environment, so, I trusted him 100%.

听

White

And how does the handover work in a race itself?

听

Panek

We had the dogs waiting at the transition relay point for me and as we ran the course once Wesley saw Waffle on the right side of the course, he targeted her and went over to greet her.听 So, it was easy for him to stop.听 So, he鈥檚 her sister, they happen to be litter mates.听 I have a very complex but effective way to connect to the dog.听 The harness is a soft body harness that goes around the dog and keeps the shoulders free and on the top of it if anybody鈥檚 been skiing it鈥檚 sort of a ski boot connection for cross country skiing that snaps in.

听

White

And what about your own performance, how did you feel it went the other day?

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Panek

My biggest concern during the race was really being able to trust the dog, you really have to trust that the dog is not going to run you into the river, when they turn you have to follow them, you cannot second guess them.

听

White

So, what鈥檚 wrong with the human sighted guide then Thomas?

听

Panek

You know, to be honest with you, with sighted guides, as kind as they are to get you through the race, I have to say that there have been many instances where I鈥檝e woken up in the morning and I鈥檝e wanted to go out for a run and I鈥檝e had to hunt for a guide.听 So, I think that having the dogs energetic and ready to go was a very unique experience.听 And then finally, I think the issue with human guides is that you鈥檙e using a tether, like a shoelace or a strap, and you can鈥檛 push on a rope.听 So, you can certainly pull the runner in one direction but you can鈥檛 push them in another.听 The benefit of the harness is the entire time I was on the course I could feel exactly where the dog was and was able to navigate very smoothly through the entire course without a single misstep.

听

White

It does sound as if this is, for you, quite a lot about actually being in control?

听

Panek

Not only being in control but being independent and I think that鈥檚 what guide dogs are all about, giving that person independence.听 The purpose of doing this was not for myself, it was really to let other people with any disability know that you can do it, get out there, no excuses, no limits, one step at a time.

听

White

Thomas Panek.

听

And we鈥檇 like your comments on that please.听 We鈥檙e getting some fascinating calls to our dedicated phone line where listeners can leave a message for us.听 We鈥檙e listening to them all and we鈥檒l be taking up many of your points in future programmes.听 The number to call:听 0161 8361338 where you鈥檒l be invited to leave your message.听 You can still email intouch@bbc.co.uk or click on contact us on our website 鈥� where you鈥檒l also find tonight鈥檚 edition of the programme and previous In Touch programmes.

听

From me, Peter White, tonight鈥檚 producer Tom Walker and the team, goodbye.