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THE ATTACHED TRANSCRIPT WAS TYPED FROM A RECORDING AND NOT COPIED FROM AN ORIGINAL SCRIPT.Ìý BECAUSE OF THE RISK OF MISHEARING AND THE DIFFICULTY IN SOME CASES OF IDENTIFYING INDIVIDUAL SPEAKERS, THE ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ CANNOT VOUCH FOR ITS COMPLETE ACCURACY.

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IN TOUCH – Retirement angst, Self-defence

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TX:Ìý 20.06.2017Ìý 2040-2100

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PRESENTER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý PETER WHITE

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PRODUCER:Ìý ÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌýÌý LEE KUMUTAT

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White

Tonight, facing retirement – we’ll be hearing from a man who thinks it poses different challenges when you’re visually-impaired and in a moment he’ll be telling us why.

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And to make sure she reaches retirement Emma Tracey has been learning to defend herself.

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Tracey

Back away, leave me alone.

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Hey up, if you’re actually holding this cane you’re showing people because when it was folded down nobody could see it, it was just you…

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Right, so it’s kind of above my face…

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So if you’re holding it up people can see there’s a cane.

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White

More from Emma later.

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But first, Mike Kelly is a civil servant, at least until next week.Ìý But he recently got in touch with us looking for advice from other listeners about how to approach retirement.Ìý Although he’s comfortable in the job that he’s been doing for 30 years at almost 65 he feels it’s time to try something new but he isn’t sure whether he’s as well equipped for retirement as he was for his job.Ìý He’s been explaining his situation to me.

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Kelly

I think that retirement is a sort of daunting prospect for anybody really because when you go to school you’re educated to get some qualifications, get a good job and then in my day it was save up for a mortgage and a house.Ìý So we’ve done that but you’re not educated at all after leaving work.Ìý But I think if you have a serious disability, like blindness, then there’s more things to take into consideration.Ìý So in a way I feel that I’m going to be starting all over again, having to learn new skills, new ways of doing things.Ìý I do have some things lined up to do but again it’s just not knowing how much is enough and how much is too much.Ìý For instance just last month I was re-elected on to our local town council in Nailsworth.Ìý Wendy, my wife, and I are National Trust members and I’d like to maybe do some work there, perhaps maybe even become a room advisor if that’s possible.Ìý I’d like to learn to cook, if that’s feasible, do the gardening, take up archery.Ìý There’s lots there, you know, it’s an open page really, it’s just knowing what’s possible and what’s not.

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White

Well I suppose that’s what’s rather puzzling in a way in that you do have a lot of ideas, there are a lot of things you want to do and I suppose what I’m trying to establish is, is it that you’re afraid that you won’t have the skills to do these things?

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Kelly

It may be the skills but it’s just wondering just how accessible some of these places are and how much I can do independently.Ìý For instance if I do try to do some work with the National Trust, for instance it’s being able to maybe get to the local National Trust property by myself and also I think I’d probably like to become a room guide but just wondering if people will be – how willing they’re going to be to come to me for advice and guidance.

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White

But you obviously do have skills because you work, you obviously do a responsible job, presumably you need some level of mobility and that kind of thing, and so give us a picture of where you are in terms of practical skills.

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Kelly

I do have a shaggy guide dog Danny, my wacky labradoodle.Ìý But public transport’s not very good where we are.Ìý I think I did say that I’d learn to cook, at the moment I don’t even know how to use the toaster.Ìý I suppose I probably will see if we’ve got a technical officer in the local social services, if they still exist and how much they can do to help I don’t know.Ìý I’d like to be able to do the gardening as well but I don’t know where to find information about how to mow the lawn in a straight line for example.

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White

And is it that really you’ve been too bound up in your work to acquire some of these skills?

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Kelly

I think I’ve never really had to bother, so haven’t really tried.Ìý Work’s a comfortable environment, I know the physical environment and the easy option would have just been to stay there indefinitely I think really.Ìý But I think I feel that I need to set a new framework and a new structure, that’s the kind of comforting side of work I think, as well as the people and familiarity is having a bit of regime and a bit of structure to life.Ìý If any of your listeners have had experience in starting all over again, starting a new life and starting new interests that would be very, very helpful.

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White

Well we have already heard from some of our listeners, so you might be interested in some of the things they’ve said.Ìý Bill and Gale Guest are a couple who are both totally blind, they say they do voluntary work with Guide Dogs or the RNIB.Ìý Gale teaches Braille, Bill’s a member of a choir.Ìý And they acknowledge that it can sometimes be difficult to get into mainstream organisations but they say it can be done with persistence.

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Kelly

It’s just that I was more interested in doing some mainstream stuff.Ìý In the past I was a magistrate as well, so I know it is possible to do those things but it’s just sort of seeing what else is available really.

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White

We had an interesting one from William Page, who’s got a number of suggestions.Ìý First he says book groups and he’s saying tell perhaps a dozen people you’ll read a specific book and would then like to discuss it over a cup of tea in about a month’s time.Ìý And he says you hope six or seven will come along and do it and then set up the next meeting.Ìý Or a similar kind of method with pub lunches, in other words you get a group of people…

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Kelly

Ah now you’re talking.

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White

…right, well you know the idea being that you get a few people, maybe that are contacts perhaps in the same boat, perhaps the same age and simply pass it on from one event to the next.

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Kelly

Yeah book club’s a good idea because I like reading so – and we have some nice pubs locally, so thank you William yeah.

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White

What’s missing in terms of how you might get this kind of advice?

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Kelly

Well I don’t think it’s a problem as much as kind of challenge and looking for opportunities really.Ìý I think the information is out there, it’s just that I think you have to be prepared to spend quite a lot of time looking for it and going to the right place and making the contacts.Ìý I think that can be difficult, it can be awkward, it can take time.Ìý I think it’s just a case of sort of planning and coordinating, finding who to speak to.

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White

One thing I am interested in, in that you’ve suggested to us in conversation before we began the broadcast that actually being alone in a house can be quite a problem for you.

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Kelly

I think most blind people, most people are better with – when they’re doing something, when they’re active, when they’re with people.Ìý I find at home that there are some things that I can do – I can make tea and coffee, I can play with the dogs, do bits of housework and stuff – but I am far better when I’m with people or actively involved in something or out and about enjoying myself, I’m not very good by myself for long periods of time, short periods is fine – a bit of downtime is fine but it’s long periods that I would find difficult by myself with nothing to do.Ìý Blindness can be very isolating, you can be in the middle of a really busy farmer’s market, as we were on Saturday in Stroud, with friends and they all went off to buy various bits and pieces, I was only by myself a moment or two but it actually can be quite lonely, everyone else around you sort of talking and enjoying themselves it can be quite a lonely sort of existence I think yeah.

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White

It’s quite interesting that you say that actually you don’t need to retire, it’s not a requirement that you do and yet you have chosen to do so and yet on the other hand you’re obviously a little bit nervous of its consequences.

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Kelly
Yeah I think I’m a little bit nervous because it’s like starting all over again, it’s going to be a new beginning, all these new things I hope to start, they’re not all going to be successful, some will fail I’m sure.Ìý It’s going to take time learning and as I get older things take me longer to learn anyway.Ìý As I say the easiest option would have been to stay at work and carry on in a familiar environment but I wanted to leave while I’ve still got plenty of time left, hopefully, to start a new life.

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White

Mike Kelly thank you.

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So as you’ve heard we’ve already received some suggestions for Mike but we’d like some more.Ìý And we also want to hear your experience of the significance of work for visually-impaired people lucky enough to be in a job.Ìý And why we might be more reluctant than most to leave the comfort of a steady job which we understand and in which our capabilities and competence is recognised by our colleagues.

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And we stay with jobs because we’ve been commenting for some time now on the situation where the chief executive posts of the two largest charities for visually-impaired people in the UK – Guide Dogs for the Blind Association and RNIB – are occupied by stand-ins.Ìý Well Guide Dogs for the Blind Association has resolved its situation, they’ve appointed Tom Wright.Ìý His background is in the care of elderly people with Age UK and Age International.Ìý He takes over in September.Ìý Meanwhile the RNIB tells us that Sally Harvey, who had been appointed as Acting CEO up until this April is still in charge while they plan to recruit for a new chief executive later this year.

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Now listeners may remember that we reported on the blind man who was tasered by police in Lancashire a couple of months ago because they mistook his folded white cane for a gun.Ìý Well while canes are obviously not deadly weapons they can be useful in protecting yourself from an attack or so maintains David Black.Ìý David’s blind himself and he runs self-defence classes for blind people in Falkirk in Scotland.Ìý Emma Tracey from ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ Ouch! went along to find out how he’d learned his techniques and how he goes about passing them on.

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Tracey

It’s a very rare scorching hot day here at the Forth Valley Sensory Centre in Falkirk in Scotland and blind and visually-impaired people from the local area are trickling in to take part in David Black’s self-defence class.Ìý There are just three participants today so everyone will get lots of one on one attention.

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Actuality – training session

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Even though David had been practising martial arts for quite some time three unprovoked attacks crushed his confidence so much that he wasn’t able to leave the house.Ìý He wanted to learn how to protect himself as a blind person and then how to pass it on to other people.

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You’ve been into martial arts for quite a long time haven’t you?

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Black

Yeah about nine or 10 year – Judo, Jujitsu and until recently Aikido.Ìý

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Tracey

And why did you start martial arts in the first place?

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Black

Because I was scared.Ìý Yeah I was attacked a couple of times.

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Tracey

Can you tell me a little bit about that?

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Black

I was one time [indistinct words] the canal but I flung him instead.Ìý Another time I got tripped up to see how blind I was and the worst one was people just punching me [indistinct word].

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Tracey

The Forth Valley Sensory Centre is really important to David, it’s where he went at his lowest point.Ìý And they introduced him to Alan Bell from the Scottish Safety Centre.Ìý Alan has helped David to turn his martial arts experience into self-defence moves that he can use.

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Bell

The lessons are split up in such a way that the first couple of lessons we deal with the law regarding self-defence, when you can and can’t defend yourself and we also cover reasonable use of force.Ìý So David’s already done lessons where he’s told people about how much force they can use against a potential attacker.Ìý So the things that we’ve covered today is when an attack has escalated to someone strangling you then the amount of force you can use has to increase to try and get that person off you.Ìý And so, just so that you know, that we do balance things out and we do cover the law aspect.

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Tracey

So in a nutshell what is the law?

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Bell

Basically you’re allowed to defend yourself, defend others, protect your property and you can make a citizens’ arrest.Ìý The amount of force that you use depends on the strength of the attacker, the relative strength of the attacker involved and whether you’re willing to use any other means other than violence to stop it.Ìý So it could be that you just walk away, could be you go out an exit but if you’re blind or visually-impaired you may not see where the exit is so you could use your voice to try and control things and bring it down and if all else fails you can defend yourself.Ìý But the amount of force you use depends on the person and the size of the person and what they’re like and how much aggression they’re using.

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Tracey

And when the person tried to get you in the canal and you threw them instead had you been doing any martial arts at that stage, how did you make that work?

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Black

Yeah I was doing jujitsu at the time, he taught me how to use my stick to defend myself.Ìý I held my cane up to defend myself, he grabbed my cane and I pulled him then he went into the canal.Ìý And when I heard the splash I just started walking. ÌýSo…

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Tracey

Gosh.Ìý I mean is that something that you would endorse, do you teach moves with canes or sticks?

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Bell

Exactly we do.Ìý The cane is an improvised weapon.Ìý If you ask any police officer, and a lot of our instructors are police officers, and our courses are endorsed by the police as well.Ìý So everything we teach we teach within the law.Ìý And one of the aspects of the law is an improvised weapon can be anything you have on you that you use in everyday use.Ìý David came to us with a bunch of techniques about the cane, which he actually taught some of us about and we’ve adapted that into the course.Ìý So the move that he used to throw someone in the canal was one of the moves that David taught.

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Tracey

So how did it turn from martial arts to self-defence?

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Black

Certainly for personal safety all the techniques are taught realistically, it’s no strange Kung fuey crouching tiger hidden stuff, it’s actual practical self-defence.

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Tracey

Before David learned self-defence techniques he hunched over when he walked, his arms were clutched in by his side and his posture was incredibly tense.Ìý Now he walks tall and he even uses a longer white cane as a result.Ìý

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Black

I’m a lot happier than I was last year, put it that way.Ìý My doctor is pleased with me.Ìý He’s noticed a massive difference.Ìý I had depression and stuff like that and he’s really proud of me, he’s happy with me, my family has noticed a massive difference as well, everybody noticed a difference in me.Ìý I walk with my head up, I’m not scared anymore, I’m not thinking is this going to happen, is that going to happen, is somebody going to fly at me with a samurai sword.Ìý No I don’t think those things anymore.Ìý When I started doing self-defence I used to walk with my head down, the world was closing in when I was losing my eyesight, the person I was years ago was cuddled up into a ball, I’m actually doing the action in remembering what it was like when I was walking – my back posture was horrible, my knees were all straight, I wasn’t in a good place but now I walk head up, back straight, knees slightly bent, I’m nice and relaxed and I can shout now.Ìý Before I was really, really quiet and couldn’t say anything.Ìý That’s probably why they attacked me.

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Tracey

Tell me a bit about how you teach your moves as a blind teacher.

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Black

Very carefully.Ìý And this is my fourth class, so very carefully and slowly and with a lot of help.

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Tracey

So carefully as in you don’t want to lamp somebody.

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Black

Absolutely, poke somebody in the eye or boot somebody in a place that they don’t want booting.Ìý It’s just I’m very conscious of the fact that I can’t see and the people that I’m training can’t see, so it’s good to have sighted people in to help me.

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Tracey

And is it important to have a blind person teach blind and visually-impaired people this sort of stuff or does it make any difference?

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Bell

Oh I think it makes a huge difference.Ìý I think if you’ve got someone who is blind or visually-impaired who can stand up and say that I’ve not only done the course exactly as I’m teaching you just now but I’m also an instructor, it gives a huge amount of confidence to that person but it also gives confidence to the people that are taking part because they realise that it’s achievable.

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Smith

My name’s Steven Smith, I live in Polmont outside Falkirk.

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Tracey

Why did you decide to do this class?

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Smith

Because I wanted to find out what it was all about and make myself much safer and that.

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Tracey

And have you ever had an experience before where you could have done with having…?

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Smith

Maybe years ago, just like – just folk like following you in the street and that and just things like that and it’s made me more safe now, more confident and that.Ìý If anybody came up to you you could get away.

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Tracey

If negotiating with someone or moving away fails Dave showed me that by holding my cane in both hands across my body at head height I can not only use it as a barrier but if someone grabs it I can push against them and turn to the side which not only knocks them in the head with the cane but sends them falling to the ground, hopefully.

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So basically I’ve got the cane straight across me in my two hands like a barrier and I’ve got my left foot forward, so I’m in defensive…

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Black

It’s a defensive position, yeah.Ìý Use your voice to actually shout, be serious – Back away, leave me alone.

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Tracey

Back away, leave me alone.

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Black

Hey up, if you’re actually holding this cane up there, showing people, because when it was folded down nobody could see it, it was just…

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Tracey

So it’s kind of at my face height.

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Black

So if you’re holding it up people can see there’s a cane, you’re a blind person being attacked, this is a man with no cane attacking you, so when you feel the contact – the grab – you shout – Let go.

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Tracey

Let go.

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Black

Now he’s feeling the push I want you pulling and turn to your right.Ìý I want you to feel that.

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Tracey

So I pull it towards me and…

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Black

And turn to your right.Ìý Yes, you’re actually using the momentum there.Ìý So give it up, give it up.

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Tracey

Oh it’s come apart.Ìý The problem with canes is they’re in sections it just came apart there.

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So they’re pushing and I’m pulling and then I twist and I catch them off guard and they have to let go.

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Black

And if you actually pushed…

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Tracey

That gives me time to get away.

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Black

It’s actually doing more.

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Tracey

So twisting your arm.

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Black

And if you push here you feel my shoulders here?

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Tracey

Yeah.

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Black

It’s actually pushing down.Ìý [Indistinct words]Ìý That’s it, that’s it.

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Tracey

Cool, I love it.Ìý I feel better with my cane now.

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[Clapping]

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White

Emma Tracey, who in future I will treat with even greater deference than before.

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And that’s almost it for today.Ìý But we’d especially like to hear from you about any sleep problems that you have and how you’ve gone about dealing with them.Ìý It’s well established that people with little or no light perception do experience disturbed sleep patterns.Ìý We’re planning to report on the latest research but we want this to reflect real people with real problems and solutions.Ìý So please do get in touch.Ìý You can call our action line for 24 hours after tonight’s programme on 0800 044 044.Ìý Email intouch@bbc.co.uk or go to our website and click on the contact us link.

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From me Peter White, producer Lee Kumutat and the team, goodbye.

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