EU foreign ministers in Viana do Castelo watch from balconies and a window as a local Portuguese band plays the European anthem, Beethoven's Ode to Joy.
A European flag flutters above them.
But neither the anthem nor the flag are mentioned in the new treaty, as they were in the constitution.
So are they the same document really, or completely different?
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I’m Mark Mardell, the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ's North America editor. These are my reflections on American politics, some thoughts on being a Brit living in the USA, and who knows what else? My previous blog, as the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ’s man in Europe, taught me one thing at least: your comments are key. I read them all, so please have your say.
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The existing flag and an anthem are already symbols officially or unofficially. The birth of a nation through common interests and in a peaceful fashion takes its time and the next generation will complete the vital need for Europe of becoming a Federal Republic.
Anthem and flag were two minor points that could be sacrificed (for the time being) to give the impression that changes were made to the Constitution. A victory for those who believe that a Federal Europe should be done by stages rather than with a single act at a fast pace. Once this mockery of Treaty is approved you will see that anthem and flag will be pushed down our throats as a natural and minor "tidying up exercise".
That is the way E.U. works: by stealth and deception.
Q:In which law exactly does it say that the Union Jack and God Save the Queen are official symbols of the UK?
A: There is no such law. The poor little UK doesn't even have a constitution but is doing fine anyway. So is Europe.
The EU-philes will continue to ignore that popular sentiment everywhere is against supranational union.
We recognize that intergovernmental cooperation is good, but we utterly reject supranational tyranny.
Tell me, EU-philes, why do you people love to betray national democracy so much? Do you know that puts you in the same league as Vidkun Quisling and Philippe Petain who did the same thing?
In response to Patrik RÃ¥man, 'the poor little UK' does indeed have a constitution. He may wish to take some time to read this article on the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ's own news website:
and in particular:
"The UK constitution is currently not set out in one document but instead spread through a series of laws, historical documents, case law and international treaties."
Hecould also try googling 'UK Constitution" & then try wading through all the hits.
Re: No 1. I,in common with many in Britain, have absolutely no objection to Europe becoming a federal republic with or without an anthem and flag,I just don't want to be any part of it.I do not, and never will, consider myself European. I am Scottish, even British but never European.
The sooner we leave the whole mess behind the better. Someone else can then take responsibility for bankrolling France's farming community.
Whatever song wins the Eurovision Song Contest should be the E.U. anthem for the following year.
I live in Hong Kong and come originally from the Czech republic.Previously lived in Montenegro and New Zealand.Every time I meet somebody here from Europe...German,Italian,French,Spanish,Hungarian or Croatian I o really feel we belong together.So for me this flag and Anthem meens a lot and I dont feel its strange, its a symbol of unity , symbol of things being so different but same....Takes time to change I guess.....and strangely enough slow change is good change...Europe you are my motherland...just take time and all will be fine....Big hug to all my Europeans
Isn't the flag - 12 gold stars in a circle on a blue background - borrowed from the Council of Europe?
As for whether or not the Reform Treaty is a constitution, only politicians wishing to fool their voters would say it is not. It consolidates the Treaties of Rome and Maastricht, as amended, into one. The three pillar structure of the Maastricht Treaty goes. The Community becomes the Union. The European Court of Justice (now to be called the Courts) gets jurisdiction over the whole show, not just the laws made under the Maastricht Treaty's Community pillar. The Union is given legal personality. The Union signs up to the European Convention on Human and Fundamental Rights - which means the Courts of Justice can bring this consideration into their rulings. Community law was always supreme. Now it will be Union law that will be supreme.
We are the EU. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.
The mind boggles. From Alexander the Great to Hitler and Stalin wars have been fought to impliment grand schemes to unite Europe under one flag, one anthem and now it is happening in our lifetime, not with a bang but a whimper. And here it is, with a government no less secretive, no less powerful and self serving, and potentially no less malevolent than any of its would be predecessors yet it is willingly embraced by the same people whose ancestors resisted so desperately. Too bad America didn't know a hundred years ago that this would happen, we could have foregone entry into world war I, II, and the cold war saving America trillions of dollars and countless lives. All the EU has to do is allow Russia entry to secure its energy needs and it will become the empire the Soviets dreamed of. Throw out the Turks, Arabs, North Africans, and other inferior races and it will become the empire the Nazis dreamed of.
The key to ceding sovereignty is to lose control over one's borders and control over one's currency. Most members have already given up both, only Britain and a few others are holding out with their currency. Extensive cross migration and the distinctions between former nation states will all but vanish, only ancient relics left to indicate the separate civilizations that once were. The lack of a national anthem, a flag, and a formal constitution a minor setback, a mere technicality which can be corrected later on, when all remaining resistance evaporates even if that takes a few more generations.
All this talk of a European anthem and flag is important symbolically but I couldn't really care whether i'm ruled by Brussels or Westminster - So long as the government (Wherever it may be) governs effectively and respects our fundamental rights and freedoms that's all that matters. Whilst the EU isn't without it's faults, it must be remembered that it has presided over possibly the longest period of peace and prosperity that its member states have ever known -To even think of a war between the UK and another member state would seem wholly incomprehensible - This is why I believe our future to be in Europe.
Re: Patrik RÃ¥man. The UK does in fact have a constitution, and it is written - but in several different law binding documents. Its constitution is 'uncodified', meaning it does not exist in a single document. Also, the system of government in the UK is based on parliamentary sovereignty; the existance of a UK codified constitution would damage parliamentary sovereignty, as in the current climate, parliament is able to adjust laws, relatively easily - the existance of a codified constitution would mean the constitution would be supreme over parliament, and constitutions are also difficult documents to ammend.
Andrew,
Thanks for your comment. You don't seem too fussed one way or the other about the EU, so chew on this:-
1. Do you think that self-determination is a fundemental right? I am refering to the ability to elect and remove those who govern you. The Charter of Fundemental Rights of the EU says only that you have the right to vote for MEPs and local councillors. It mentions nothing about you having the right to self-determination and therefore right to elect/remove European Commissioners.
2. The biggest threat to peace in Europe after WWII was the Soviet Union. That's why NATO was formed in 1949. For 40 years the peace of Europe was kept by the American taxpayer until 1989 when the Berlin Wall fell, and the U.S. still props up NATO today. The European Coal and Steel Community was formed in 1951 (France & West Germany) upon which was built the European Economic Community in 1957 (6 countries, then 9 in 1973, then 12 in 1985) which, in turn, became the EU in 1991. Exactly which threats to peace between countries has the ECSC/EEC/EU neutralised that would have led to conflict if it hadn't existed?
To G Manson:
Great! And the sooner you leave the EU the sooner we'll get rid of your hooligans from our cities and resorts. I just hope EU then introduces visas to British or Scottish citizens too. Then you'll have your beautiful island all to yourselves.
I agree to milan. The one who does not recognize where the road leads to, might be called mistaken. He should notice that further integration will come and make a decision wether to stay or wether to leave the process.
Jonathon McNeill #12
You bring up a very good point. This is precisely why the United States DOES have a codified Constitution, the government is subordinate to it and cannot change it easily. This comes from a visceral distrust Americans have for government power, the further away and more remote the more suspicious it becomes. An old American maxim has it that nobody's lives or property are safe while the legislature is in session. And, the power to tax is the power to destroy. Evidently the framers of the Constitution firmly believed that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. They were therefore very careful to split power up through a divison of powers between federal and state governments and a separation of powers between the three branches in each, executive, legislative, and judiciary. They set potentially equally ambitious scoundrels against each other in the belief that it would be better for the government to be paralyzed into inaction than to allow the creation of a tyranny resulting from a concentration of power. An example is the 2000 Presidential election. It took a conspiracy of all three branches of government in the State of Florida plus the US Supreme Court with both houses of Congress standing by if needed to steal the election from Al Gore. I still believe he might have become president had he persued his battle further in court and in public but he and his fellow Democrats didn't seem to have the heart for it. So much for his empty words during the convention when he pledged to fight for the average American, when push came to shove, he couldn't even fight for himself.
So why would the EU need a constitution. It would only get in the way of what they want most, absolute power. And they are well on their way to getting it.
Why should we take seriously the demands of people who cannot discuss the EU rationally, but who fling names like 'Quisling', 'Pétain', 'Soviet empire' and 'Nazi' like mud at a wall?
Of course, they hope that some of it sticks, and indeed some of it does, distorting the debate so that it becomes almost impossible to discuss how to secure our country's best interests in any detail.
Luckily we live in a parliamentary democracy.
When will those who hate the EU on the basis that they never want to be part of a "supra-national state" get a grip on the fact that the UK is itself a supra-national state, consisting of four distinct countries - England, Wales, Scotland and N Ireland - all of which have their own distinct peoples, identities, traditions, cultures, and histories (of which we are all rightly proud), all bound into a union far tighter than anyone has ever contemplated for the EU?
If Europe could become a peaceful entity after centuries of slaughter this could be a continental model for the world. Imagine Africa, Asia and South America along similar lines. Wouldn't the world be a better place? Europe needs to work for the benefit of the world.
There is a similar discussion of North America forming a "supra-national state". Being Canadian, and being against such a proposal, I can understand fully why some in Europe are opposed to a "federal European state". There are far too many national differences, and unfortunately, hard feelings between many of the members of the propsed union. It is NOT a feeling of xenophobia, but one of national pride that prevents full acceptance on the part of many.
Stephen Farndon #13 - In response to your comments;
i) Yes it's common knowledge that the existing voting system of the EU is far from perfect but could we say the same for that of the UK - Ie; In Ireland it was only after 1829 that Catholics were first given the right to vote in UK elections and it wasn't until the 1970's that the emergence of 'modern' democracy in Northern Ireland came to pass with the 'one man one vote' campaign - That process took at least 140 years yet the EC/EU has only existed for 50 years and its already in the process of debating how to make a more democratic voting system. Give the EU a chance to work for nothing like this has ever been attempted before in the history of Europe!
ii) Yes, Nato has done a lot for the security of Europe against external aggressors (I.e; The former Soviet Union & Warsaw Pact) but remember that most if not all wars are fought because of economics and people are content so long as they have a job;
In this respect the EC promoted internal security through its handling of coal and steel resources which are necessary to wage war.
Secondly, the EC led to such a degree of cooperation between Germany and France (Two formerly bitter enemies for obvious reasons) that people today commonly refer to a Franco-German alliance in Europe
That's just two examples of how the EC/EU fostered peace amongst its member states.
It cannot be denied that there are drawbacks and mistakes and there is a lack of clear allocation and limitation of competences; the EU sometimes seems to grab scopes and bring out superfluous regulations. The legislation seems opaque from time to time. Knowing and seeing all this - and thus sometimes beeing in opposition to some particularly daft regulations - I still welcome further integration (I am not a supporter of further enlargement by the way). While the achievement sometimes is wimpy, the whole process still is worthwhile.
With all this Constitreaty gobbledygook, what does the loss of the "symbolic legal status" of the anthem and flag actually mean ?
A tattered version of the blue duster flies at our local swimming pool, can I ask for it to removed ?
Or, like many other things EU, is this latest proclamation meaningless ?
The U.K. is doing great without the rest of the continental european countries...Who needs them when we are best friends with the United States????? Let's give the EU a kick in the butt...
only countrys have flag and athems the EU is none of these this is why it as been taken out of the treaty to try and brain wsah the british and the rest of europe i am no european ,
What nobody seems to mention is the very important fact that we (British citizens) have never actually been asked, in a Referendum, whether we want to give up our sovereignty and be ruled from Brussels. To me that is the biggest and most fundamental problem. If this had been a majority vote i would have to accept it, however much i hate it. The majority of British people do not want this interference from Brussels and every time we are told we will be allowed to do so and so or not allowed to do something, by people we did not vote for, really galls. Heath and successive governments have all lied to us. Why did they feel the need to do that? Because they knew it would never be accepted by us if they had told the truth. We must be allowed a say in how, and by whom our country is run.
Quite a few posts seem to indicate a British preference for rule by Washington over rule by Brussels. As far as "national sovereignty" goes, remember that your Trident nuclear missiles cannot be fired without permission from Washington since the US navy controls their software..."Rule Britannia" ?
Good site! I'll stay reading! Keep improving!
The frustrations I find with some of the comments is the extreme polarity of views.
The suggestuion that those who want ever closer union in line with the Treaty of Rome are akin to Petain or Quizling is riddiculous.On the whole they are well meaning people (although in my opinion mistaken) who believe in the project. Perhaps some of them do have crusading mentality but that does not make them bad people.
Equally riddiculous is the suggestion the reason we have had 50 years of peace is the E.U.
Besides being factually innacurate, for a large part of that 50 years the majority of European countries were not in the E.U. It would be true to say that no member state has been at war with another member state. It would equally be true to say that no NATO member has been at war with another NATO member
The reason for the relative peace is the near destruction of Europe thanks to two World wars in close sucession and a determination not to repeat this within Europe. The E.U. is a symptom of this determination and not a cause of peace. Even this has not stopped members of the E.U. waging wars elsewhere.
I BELIEVE WE DO NEED AN HONEST DEBATE, THAT WE CAN HAVE ONE, BUT NAME CALLING ON EITHER SIDE IS UNHELPFUL ...
Re The EU Anthem.
Let them have the Laurel & Hardy jingle then perhaps we can have the 'Ode to Joy' back
i will never call myself a european just a eu made up piece of rubbish.I have friends who are french polish spanish and all agree the eu is not so rosy,let the people from all EU nations have one final say in or out democracy the EU is not its the opposite.
I personally do not recognize the EU flag as anything more than symbolic, and the anthem as anything more than a piece of classical music....really,honestly,does anyone else !