School pupils swearing?
What do you make of that plan for school pupils to swear an oath of allegiance? Myself, I鈥檓 not sure it鈥檚 going anywhere fast 鈥 except, perhaps, to an overflowing Whitehall in tray.
The scheme has been proposed by the former Attorney General Lord Goldsmith. He says Britain has become a more divided country and it鈥檚 time to foster 鈥渘ational pride鈥 with a touch of ceremonial in schools.
You鈥檙e ahead of me, aren鈥檛 you? Which nation? The United Kingdom? Great Britain? Scotland?
Plus what would the ceremony comprise? Is it to be a US-style pledge to the flag? (Yes, again, which flag?) Is to be an oath of loyalty to Her Majesty the Queen?
On that last point, Lord G says it ain鈥檛 necessarily so. It could be, he says, a pledge of commitment to the country (OK, I know, I get the concept) or 鈥渁 statement of what the rights and responsibilities of citizens are.鈥
Not too sure what that might mean 鈥 other than a few warm, encouraging words. What鈥檚 the point of the exercise if it isn鈥檛 a true oath of allegiance?
According to a back-up study on this issue, senior politicians have been accused of lacking enthusiasm for the concept as applied at present to citizenship ceremonies for new entrants to the UK. Cynics, all of them.
PS: What about schools in Belfast? Would they join in? Best of luck to whoever has to draft their oath.
I'm 
Comments
Let's go over this again. The Labour government is proposing (or at least seriously considering) that all school pupils be required to swear an oath of loyalty to the queen.
That whirring sound I hear is Keir Hardie rotating at 5000RPM.
Never mind schools in Belfast. I know quite a few in the West of Scotland that wouldn't take that kindly to the idea.
My allegiance is to the People of Scotland only. I actually recognise the Queen as Queen of Scots and would be happy to keep the monarchy in an independent Scotland due to the heritage it represents. However, make no mistake that the Queen of Scots owes her position to the people of Scotland.
As for 'Britishness', this is quickly becoming an outdated concept, apart from its geographical sense, in the same way that Norwegians and Danes are 'Scandinavians'.
Brown does not represent Scotland!
I found the incentives interesting -
"Council tax and student fee rebates are suggested for people who volunteer - as well as a "Britishness" public holiday."
Council tax - Won't apply in Scotland
Student Fees - Doesn't apply in Scotlnd either.
So what's the incentive for Scots or do they not expect many people north of the border to take the oath anyway? (That would at least mean they got one thing right...)
Lord Goldsmith should either spend a lot more time in USA or a lot less.
An over-flowing Whitehall in-tray? Think a cylindrical filing system might be better!
As you say Brian - Which flag? Which nation? And oh boy, would I like to see the 'oath' in NI schools!
Is Lord Goldsmith totally divorced from reality?
This is just crazy.
When you look at nations like USA and North Korea, the kids get it drummed into their heads from the earliest opportunity to be 'patriotic'.
All it is is another form of mind manipulation and brain washing.
Young children have absolutely no idea what an oath like this actually means.
If I was made to swear on oath an allegiance to queen and the UK/Britain it would only be because I was made to which doesn't exactly seem right in a 'democratic' country.
The problem is we're all divided, and the solution is to introduce an oath, to force is to unite?
Well, everyone seems pretty well united against an oath, so that's another mark in the success column.
I remember a time when it was the nationalists that said things which made one cringe with embarrassment!
Such an oath of allegiance would indeed be a wonderful thing - I can think of nothing that would accelerate Scottish and Welsh independence faster than this!
This is another daft idea out of London. Do they not realise that the UK is decaying and a new constututional arrangement needs to happen. Not just trying to paper over the cracks of a broken UK.
And Gordon Brown should be ashamed of himself 'bought and sold for english gold' what a rascal.
There's not a chance I would let any child of mine stand and swear allegiance to a crown that has no interest or feels any loyalty to this wee country. I'd block it every step of the way.
Most young people are republicans.
They are generally very happy swearing.
This is an absolute non-starter from the guy who gave Tony Bliar the legal advice that enabled the U.K.'s illegal, mega-billion foray in Iraq.
Send him homeward to think again please!
On yesterday's Daily Politics Jenny Scott helpfully pointed out that this wouldn't apply to Scotland. Outside your brief Brian?
HO BRIAN
SEE PIX IN TODAYS TELEGRAPH PAGE9 methinks the problem is the holiday May day labour empire or
we are going to crash drop aMae West how do we save the scottish post office //REMEMBER THE MESS THE
PRINTERS MADE OF THE STAMP ESSEX are going to use council tax money I have read your piece on the new income tax the headline says it all in THE herald 6years and 79m拢 FOR
LOCAL it not anational tax thats westminster task
SLAINTE A MORAY
Andrews programme is good as was THE MAXWELL story ken
LIT seems to me to be an unfair boost for the self employed - those who are able to minimize their "income" while retaining value in their businesses and property that they can still access when it's most fiscally beneficial to themselves.
Under LIT, it seems to me, these people will reduce their financial contribution to our society while the PAYE masses will shoulder even more of the burden than they already do. A similar situation already exists when it comes to, for example, supporting children who attend university - the self-employed are often able to minimize their "income" to maximize their ability to claim financial support... LIT is just another way for the "asset rich but cash "poor" " to freeload off employed tax-payers.
Let's do something for people who are in real financial hardship - and have the rest of us pay our fair share towards our community. Council tax may not be perfect but let's not replace it with something worse - LIT!
A total nonsense, by a politician (or more likely policy wonk) with too much time on their hands. It would cause the biggest opt out since the poll tax.
I am pro royal family, I'm a Cameron ergo, the queen already has my allegiance.
I'm pro Britain too, Scotland's strength comes from it's union from england (anyone hear of lithuania on the G8?!).
I thought i'd point that out before I say that this oath of allegiance is tacky.
Britain day? yuk
If it could be done with real solemnity, then I may support it. However this is another one of "new" labour's bad ideas, a "unity solution".
Perhaps if labour had not done more to break up Britain than any other government, they may not have this problem.
Too little too late, we need a new government to fix this "new" labour problem.
(Brian delete the following if it stops this getting posted, but I can't resist!)
I now hand over to the SNP bots, so they can foam, as usual. Off you go guys.
The oath of allegiance bears some similarity with the "promise" which Brownies and Guides used to have to make before they could wear the uniform - and about as daft!
The proposed oath of allegiance bears some similarity with the "promise" which Brownies and Guides used to have to make before they could wear the uniform - and about as daft!
What a totally daft, not to mention unworkable idea. In fact, I would go as far as to say that this is a fascist, illegal idea that is against our human rights.
If Radio 4 are correctly reporting today that we will not get an ID Card UNLESS we swear - then once ID Cards are made compulsory (and we all know THAT will come) - then the swearing of allegiance will also be compulsory.
Do we not live in a free country?
Do we not have the right to free speech?
Or even silence? (Even crooks have that right)
Are non-swearers to be deported? Jailed? Tortured?
There is a small but significant republican minority. I am not one but would support and assist them in their right to hold and argue a democratic principal. I would march, blog, write to the press and give to any fund to pay for the legal defence of non-swearing "criminals" at the European Court of Human Rights 鈥
a fight they would undoubtedly win.
I don't think you need to be a republican to find this idea quite offensive.
I have nothing against the current Queen; I think she is a gracious and dignified lady who has now been badly let down by the emergence of certain of her grandchildren into 'adulthood'.
And that's where the real problem lies. What kind of example is being set by Harry and Wills for our young people - the target audience for this sadly flawed idea??
You would not find it difficult to class much of their reported behaviour of that of 'drunken louts'. And now they both seem to think that global problems can be solved by taking up a rifle and being prepared to kill other humans because they have been told to do so!!
And this is the type of behaviour which future generations may be asked to swear allegiance to!!
Goldsmith, Brown et al have surely lost the plot with this one.
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
you have got to be joking...!!
what this is an actual proposal...
So ....what happens if the children refuse does it get recorded in some secret file and they are targeted as enemeys of the state..
this is bloody ridiculous and if they try to get my children to pledge and oath to anyone I would not be happy.
To try and get them to unify some ailing union is a sad and desperate measure.
Referendum on Independence NOW
I would assume that as usual 'national' and 'national pride' will be the English form of national pride. This appears to be an ecocentric English policy developed by English politicians and bureacrats probably from London, to fit the UK. Thev rest of Britain if ever considered would be expected to conform.Will they ever learn.
The thing that got me was the severe shortnightedness of this report outside of England; especially when it came to the "benefits" you'd receive.
How exactly would Lord Goldsmith give me a discount on my tuition fees, when I don't pay them? Would I just be given a couple of grand for reading a couple of paragraphs out loud? Sounds good that one.
He He *;o) !!!
Once again dumb Nu-Labour spend all their time trying to prevent Scottish Independance and end up suceeding in margionalising the 4 countries that make up the UK.
Thankyou Labour for supporting the SNP and assisting in this endeavour.
Saor Alba!!!
Just check the comments on the 成人快手 HYS...
I'm getting sick of having "Britishness" rammed down our throats. It seems that the London government will do anything to force Britishness on Scotland. Most people in Scotland don't associate themselves with the British identity. It's undemocratic and colonial forcing people who are begining to see a greater need for self determination into accepting an identity whether they like it or not.
The British thing to do would be to stand up and say "Don't be so bloody silly."
So in a way it could engender a sense of solidarity and shared values.
Nice contentious announcement ahead of the budget but I don't think this will succeed in hiding the pain I suspect we're all going to feel tomorrow.This Labour government must be the most dishonest lowest principled government this nation has ever had,as well as having the most incompetent Prime Minister since James Callaghan.He has taken Britain from being one of the most prosperous countries in the world to a near bankrupt sattelite of the German/French alliance in ten years. Tomorrow we will hear Darling tell us how well the country is doing and at the same time we will be hammered by taxes in the interest of"saving the planet". Saving Labour's bacon! Brown should be made to swear an oath of allegiance to the people of Britain before he resigns.
My kids will pledge allegiance to "Queen and Country" as part of the education system ... over my dead body.
The Scottish people are sovereign.
"The question of Scottish Sovereignty is as old as the nation itself with its roots deep in our Pictish / Celtic past but it is nevertheless a fact in reality to this day. In earlier times on those occasions when the vacant crown of Scotland had to be filled by a process of selection of contenders and a final election, the officers of state always acted in the name of and on behalf of, "the people of the Realm of Scotland". No Monarch could ascend the Scot鈥檚 throne without the "expressed will and wishes of "The People of Scotland"." - from www.elmsliewear.demon.co.uk/scottish%20sovereignty.htm
Has Gordon Brown lost the plot? Does he really think that Scots will swear an oath to support the English aristocracy after all that's happened lately.For the first time ever we have a government in Scotland that is solely committed to helping the Scottish people.We dont buy the notion of Great Britain any more.You can feel it in the air.New Labour is finished in Scotland.Get your head around it.
Typical New Labour, importing any American idea, no matter how gormless. Next up, televangelists.
Ludicrous idea. The teachers would never accept it anyway.
What if the student/s say "no, I'm not gonna do that"?
Are they going to be punished?
Deported?
Ever get a proper job?
Sent to Iraq?
I, for my sake, would never swear an oath to anybody, any country or any political party! What really isn't difficult to understand as I have two nationalities, british (scottish?) and german! And I don't trust any political party or goverment anyway. I watch what they are doing and use the small democratic chance I can use every couple of years at the elections to tell them what I think.
It seems Lord Goldsmith thinks the people in the UK belong to the goverment/queen/flag! It is not (or should not be) that way, it's the other way round.
And I think there was something in Germany a long time ago that must have started like that.
I think it's rather obvious that references to flag and nation would be to the UK and the Union Flag.
Rather seems that this false ignorance is simply trying to rile up the Nationalists - as if they ever needed riling.
Forget Belfast Brian...try some denominational schools in Glasgow where Celtic are well supported. Oaths to the Queen?
If I ever catch my daughter swearing they'll be hell to pay!
By the way if they were to swear allegiance to Gordon Brown instead of the Queen, would that constitute swearing allegiance to an oaf?
Something similar was tried in the 1950's and we also sang that "hymn" which includes that prayer about "England's green and pleasant land" every morning in assembly AND THIS WAS in a State run Senior Secondary School in Scotland's largest city. Is it a case of Brit Nat ..GOOD...SCOT Nat...BAD. Personally I am an Internationalist who wishes Scotland to be part of the International community...once Independent.
Surely the option to choose your allegience within a secular society is just that - secular, and would achieve, basically, well.. nothing???
Re the 'British' nation, I think we all know it doesn't exist. Britain is an ancient geographical term and a 'modern' political term whose end is near.
Are the kids swearing loyalty to the Union Flag or the Saltire, the Welsh Dragon and the St George Cross?
At a time when the whole of Glasgow, including and especially Celtic and Rangers are winning the war against sectarianism, attempting to introduce the divisive Union Flag is absolute lunacy, a political stunt by a tired Labour Party completely devoid of new, meaningful ideas.
Forget it!
Finally, I've never seen so many Saltires at Murrayfield in my life on Saturday. The Saltire is a flag whose time has come, rather than be replaced by the Union Flag it will outlive the Union Flag which looks tired and frayed alongside the bright sharp colours of a fresh Saltire.
As a supporter of the Monarchy and someone proud to be British, I respect the right of others in our country to disagree with both the Monarchy and Britishness. That is what being British should be all about. Tolerance of dissent should be a hallmark of Britishness. Goldsmith and Brown should be ashamed of themselves for trying to force foreign customs on the British.
As a supporter of the Monarchy and someone proud to be British, I respect the right of others in our country to disagree with both the Monarchy and Britishness. That is what being British should be all about. Tolerance of dissent should be a hallmark of Britishness. Goldsmith and Brown should be ashamed of themselves for trying to force foreign customs on the British.
Great post as usual Brian.
What has Goldsmith been smoking? An absolutely proposterous idea that would have wide ramifications for all memebers of the U.K.
It strikes me as incredibly old-fashioned and clearly out of touch with the current political climate in Scotland. I only hope that Brown goes for it in the hope that he will further distance Labour from Scotland.
If you are confused about what nation we are taking about, you are an advertisement for why a national pledge is needed.
Anti-British groups like the SNP will always oppose such an oath. But a majority of Britons support the union and would support a patriotic oath of allegiance to it.
Our Armed Forces take such an oath, and so should every other citizen. It is what differentiates us from those who want to destroy Britain, who I am sure have already taken their own oaths of disloyalty.
Absolutely Hilarious. Surely this is a joke, and a sick one at that.
Sorry Gordon, but everyday you continue to look like the pudding you are. Please keep it up as you commit Electoral Hari Kari everytime you open your London Gubb.
Seems like the media have given a focus to the one element of the report that they know is going to cause disharmony rather than foster collective support and mutual understanding.
If we are becoming a divided country, then those in the media have to accept responsibility for their part in over-reporting the small differences in opinion into headline grabbing divides. The 成人快手 led on this story days ago; the Times headline this morning is "Scots lead the rebellion against oath of allegience".
Aye, people are irritated by another nanny Westminster idea, but I see no rebellion in the streets. Grow up journalists and report about something of substance.
I think this is an ill thought out idea floated in public without any real account being taken of how perverse the idea is.
Making compulsory the swearing of an oath to a system that is clearly not democratic (the royal family) is at odds with the concept of living in a democracy.
How do we encourage children to leave school and achieve all they have the potential to when our head of state is picked by accident of birth and not merit? To swear allegiance to a system that is completely at odds with the ethos we would wish to instill in our young adults is clearly absurd.
The point of swearing allegiance to a flag is also dubious, we only need look at the support shown for the Northern Irish, Welsh and Scots independence parties to realise that the aspiration of many of our citizens is at odds with the oath that appears to be suggested.
To put this in perspective, I served many years in the Armed forces, I was especially proud of being in a Scottish regiment, My loyalty was to my regiment and fellow regimental members. I was often irked that others made the assumption that I was serving my queen and country as I did not believe in the idea of a royal family.
I was not encouraged to express the reality of the situation which was I embrace Scotland as my country, the United Kingdom is a partnership that my country, for the moment, is a part of. Lets file this idea under B for bin where it belongs.
What concerns me is what is hidden in this report behind this stupid idea that has become the headline.
It's all damaging our lovely PM though which I do enjoy.
I found the incentives interesting -
"Council tax and student fee rebates are suggested for people who volunteer - as well as a "Britishness" public holiday."
Council tax - Won't apply in Scotland
Student Fees - Doesn't apply in Scotlnd either.
So what's the incentive for Scots?
And those who don't want to take the oath? They get discriminated against with higher council tax, higher student fees and less public holidays?
I certainly wouldnt want to swear allegiance to the Queen unless it was to my country - Scotland - and to my flag! Is this an attempt by the English Government to make us in Scotland under the control of the English again? Funny that this news breaks when we finally beat England at Murrayfield - eh?
First and foremost I want to be a citizen not a subject, ideally of an Independent Scottish state.
If my fellow Scots want the Queen to remain our head of state then so be it. Having a pride in ones country is not dependent on swearing an oath of alliegiance to anyone, let alone the monarchy.
Imposing this on children is a ridiculous notion and in my opinion would signal the death knell of an already outmoded institution.
I would have to echo Brian Taylor's scepticism about having an oath of allegience in schools. This is a difficult one because the Unitied Kingdom & Northern Ireland is not one country but a union of kingdoms, Principalities, provences and various other Island states. The UK has never been one country; no matter how often the English have tried to make these islands a pan-anglia homeland. I for one am an athiest and a republican and would not like the idea of my grandkids having to swear an oath to something that I and/or they might find objectionable. Bin the idea.
nae chance
last attempts of a unionists to shore up a dying union.
pathetic
Having a sense of "National Pride" is not dependent on swearing an oath of allegiance to anyone, let alone the monarchy. It is something that you feel in your heart, it cannot be imposed.
I want to be a citizen of an Independent Scotland and not a subject of her Britannic majesty.
Children should not be subjected to this nonsense!!
I can answer the last question (about Belfast schools) with some authority.
None of them will adopt the oath. It won't be British enough for half of them, it will be too British for the other half.
Same goes for all NI schools. You would have difficulty enough trying to get them to pledge allegiance to Northern Ireland, never mind the UK.
All we need is our M.P.'s and M.S.P.'s to swear allegiance to the taxpayers.Shock horror! Their noses are going to be pulled out of the Holyrood trough a little way. Why should they get all these housing and travel expences? No other workers do ,they know where they are going to work when they stand for election so let them fund their own travel like everyone else. It's not as if this is a full time job for most of them anyway , most of them appear to have their snout in some other trough at the same time.Fair enough if the state funds a modest office and a secretary but that should be all. They are paid a salary that most of them would have been incapable of earning in the real world, so enough is enough, if they don't like it then they have a clear alternative; resign, and someone else will do it gladly.
Another trademark scheme from the 鈥楽talinist鈥 Brown Government.
The very preposterous concept of swearing allegiance to a notional 鈥楤ritish nationalism鈥 鈥 whether that be to the flag of the state, or the very English-styled Queen Elizabeth the Second 鈥 is inherently and deeply offensive.
People native to these shores should have no need of any 鈥榮tate validation鈥 of their identity 鈥 and nor should a 鈥楤ritish鈥 citizen, of any background, be obliged to feel a 鈥榮ubject鈥 of the monarch, or that their citizens鈥 rights are dependent on adherence to any notional 鈥榬ules of Britishness鈥.
As has been rightly and self-evidently stated, the United Kingdom is simply a 300-year-old political entity, comprising distinct countries with their own individual, ancient, and enduring cultures and identities.
Most Scots are Scottish first and British second, if at all!
Further, in this multicultural age, a UK citizen may come from any ethnic or cultural background on Earth, and is entitled to hold their own origins and roots more dear than any imposed 鈥榣oyalty鈥 to the political state.
Above all, we are a society of individuals, each of us citizens of the world.
The idea of an 鈥榦ath to Britishness鈥 is a stark political device which, self-evidently, would see us all living our lives in the shadow of the Union flag, and all that it represents.
Given the option, I for one would swear only to the Saltire 鈥 though even that should come from the heart, and never imposed as a 鈥榙uty of citizenship鈥.
If any child of mine was obliged to swear allegiance, as proposed, I would remove him /her from the process without hesitation.
Let sense and decency prevail, and let us extinguish such Whitehall impositions at their very root!
'Daft as a brush' as my gran used to say
My wife (Australian) recently became a British Citizen in a ceremony in Glasgow
She had to swear an oath to 'Queen Elizabeth II'... in Scotland
The current Queen isn't Queen Liz 2 of Scotland.. she's Queen Liz 1. Good Queen Bess was never Queen of Scots.. even though she did have Mary Q of S beheaded
So why don't new citizens swear allegiance to Queen Elizabeth the 1st and 2nd? (as we had James VI and I)
Will they really expect teenage school leavers to swear allegiance to QE2 in Scotland?
..even after they've answered the new Scottish History question at Higher?
the idea is mad as a bag of hammers
m
I think this is an ill thought out idea floated in public without any real account being taken of how perverse the idea is.
Making compulsory the swearing of an oath to a system that is clearly not democratic (the royal family) is at odds with the concept of living in a democracy.
How do we encourage children to leave school and achieve all they have the potential to when our head of state is picked by accident of birth and not merit? To swear allegiance to a system that is completely at odds with the ethos we would wish to instill in our young adults is clearly absurd.
The point of swearing allegiance to a flag is also dubious, we only need look at the support shown for the Northern Irish, Welsh and Scots independence parties to realise that the aspiration of many of our citizens is at odds with the oath that appears to be suggested.
To put this in perspective, I served many years in the Armed forces, I was especially proud of being in a Scottish regiment; my loyalty was to my regiment and fellow regimental members. I was often irked that others made the assumption that I was serving my queen and country, as I did not believe in the idea of a royal family.
I was not encouraged to express the reality of the situation which was I embrace Scotland as my country; the United Kingdom is a partnership that my country, for the moment, is a part of. Lets file this idea under B for bin where it belongs.
I heard that a "Coming of Age Day" was one of the proposals. It works well in Japan with kids attending a ceremony at their local town hall. A speech from the mayor and going off to celebrate their now found adulthood. A little bit like a graduation event -- but for everybody. Not only for those who chose to go to university. I think such an even would help to create more of a community spirit. But swearing an oath to the flag or monarch -- now there's a Pandora's box.
I think this is a daft idea....I oppose Nationalism of any shape or colour as I think it narrow minded, potentially prejudical and dangerous. Much of the USAs presence around the world is driven by misdirected patriotic Nationalism - they really do believe they are the leaders of the free world, and that it is their "mission" to spread democracy around the world.....
I'd much rather we spent time teaching our own people self respect and respect for others, these are much more powerful qualities.
What a load of rubbish.
Glad to see the NI situation addresses by someone, Brian! But yeah, the Unionist Parties here have been *very* quiet about it, with the Nationalists (and Alliance a.k.a. Lib Dem Lite) coming out against it.
But the PSNI no longer swear an Oath to the Queen, why should the rest of us have to?
In the immortal words of Graham Chapman's Colonel character from Monty Python, "Stop that, it's getting a bit silly".
What a pointless exercise.
some misguided politician has made an an ill thought out statement and is now receiving an undeserved amount of publicity, should we not just treat this comment with the contempt it deserves and move on, because as all right thinking Scots will realise This will never happen....unless we let it!
Not a snowball's chance in hell that this will get beyond the whiteboard !
As has been pointed out English (Brit) nationalism is apparently a great thing but when the Scots/Welsh/irish doing the same thing - apparently that is a horrid thing that must be squashed immediately. !!
What next? Playing the national anthem before football matches as they do in America that will go down well at Parkhead
Scouts '....promise to do their best to do their duty to God and to the Queen'. This key commitment made via the Scout Promise is undertaken readily by all new members. Indeed, a fresh commitment to the Promise was made by members during 2007, Scouting's centenary year. Scouting grows in popularity in Scotland along with other parts of the UK and is a positive experience for young people. The link between the Scout Promise and the huge success of the movement should not be underestimated. Think twice before dismissing so readily the notion of an oath.
Queen Elizabeth II Queen of Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Jamaica, Barbados, the Bahamas, Grenada, Papua New Guinea, the Solomon Islands, Tuvalu, Saint Lucia, Saint Vincent and the Grenadines, Antigua and Barbuda, Belize, and Saint Kitts and Nevis,
Oh and I nearly forgot she is Queen of Scots,Queen of England,Queen of Nothern Ireland and Queen of Wales.
As for swearing and oath I just dont see it ever happening this is a badly thought out policy.
A state which demands oaths of allegiance is doing only one thing: promoting a culture where the default option is loyalty and obedience to those in authority. They were very keen on oaths of allegiance in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries when they were used to exclude people who, for their religious or political views, were regarded as dangerous. Whatever language you dress them up in, the point is to discourage or eradicate alternative views and bolster the power of the state. Forget it.
Lord Goldsmith says Britain has become a more divided country?
Britain isn't a Country, Scotland England,Wales and debatably Northern Ireland are Countries.
Britain is a term coined to describe a historical political marriage of convenience between 4 countries.
In todays multicultural world with countries of different sizes going their own independent ways to follow their own interests do we need an artificial entity anymore?
Great Britain
United Kingdom
Britain
Casting about for reasons to try and pin individuals colours to the flagpole of an anachronistic bygone empire that is becoming more out of touch with its' peoples desires and aspirations?
I for one don't need to proclaim I am British as I am already in my heart Scottish and will always be.
What a lot of nonsense. So those of us from the faith that is prohibited in law from being that of the reiging monarch are expected to swear an oath to the monarch. Ths will only be divisive.
Instead lets reform the Act of Settlement and ditch the outrageously sectarian legislation !
If Brown's latest jape is an attempt to stifle Scottish or Welsh aspirations of independence, it will have the exact opposite effect.
Under Blair and Brown we now live in a Kafka-Orwell-Pythonesque world. This latest risable idea of Brown manages to plumb new depths, perhaps due to his desperation.
Remember Brown's achievements to date; supporting and financing an illegal war in Iraq and an unwinnable one in Afghanistan, giving away the countries gold reserves for a knock-down price to name a few.
He should be honest enough to admit past wrongs and do his best to atone for them, rather than come up with crackpot inconsequential schemes like this, but then its clear the man has no shame and no sense.
"Pythonesque"?
It goes beyond even their brand of surrealism.
Gordon brown is a drowning man, clutching at straws.
This particular straw, however, would appear to be made of lead.
If the English feel the need for this gumph, more power to them. Seems to me, however, that Scots don,t pqrticularly need much help in forging a national identity of their own.
Despite the fact I am a Scots nationalist I would not be prepared to swear an oath of allegiance to an independent Scotland, unless I was directly working for the government (armed service, civil service etc...) Otherwise, no-way. As for swearing to Britain and the Queen ... eh no. Just no.
Has anyone actually thought what would happen when thousands of schoolkids across the country just said "no"? I doubt anything substantive will come from Goldsmith's report - possibly an additional "Veteran's Day" Union flag waving holiday - but little else.
I was in Belfast yesterday Brian when I first heard this, and it was greeted with guffaws.
Funnily enough their perception is that in Scotland the case against would be across the board and not along their loyalist/nationalist lines.
From the people whose anthem still includes the pejorative Verse 3 and who decided that the monarch would be Elizabeth II, they have a right cheek thinking we will obediently pledge allegiance to a flag and and a person that are becoming more irrelevant by the day.
What is the English Government thinking about? I'm all in favour of us pledging allegiance to a SCOTTISH government - but wait a minute, an English one - you're NOT on.
This is like stuffing English policy AGAIN on us Scots - and personally, I am sick of it! Get lost Gordon Brown!
Oath of allegiance? Flags?
Will hands be placed on wallets in customary American style?
How very un-British.
Brian. Are you proud of your audience? Don't get me started.
So far in this message board I think #52 and 53 are rational people. The rest? Frankly the jury is out.
Teenagers swearing oaths? As I understand it it's an ill considered suggestion from a bloke who has fallen out of the media spotlight for a while; it isn't a decree from the Palace so maybe QE1, 2, whatever is muttering "Nae chance!" - she is more Scottish than me afterall! I can bet your bottom euro there's a similar response of "no way!" down here in England too.
Where's Lydia?
It seems that people in America, where they pledge alliegence every morning, have a much greater pride in the their country than we do. As a Scottish child in a Canadian school I felt no qualms about singing the national anthem every morning before lessons, infact it made me feel more included and at home. At Scouts I had no problem swearing to do my bit for queen and country. The question is not what use would this be, but why only as a leaving ceremony, why not every morning as they do across the pond? We are all British, which in my mind is a good thing, and I think it would be a good thing to celebrate and foster pride in our country.
I am happy and proud to refer to myself as British.
I am, however, a republican.
So I would not willingly take an oath to any monarch.
This has nothing to do with the English, once some of you get passed your usual( blame the English for everything) you will see it is typical Gordon Brown to the core, and he just happens to be from Scotland.
The armed forces don't all take an oath to the Queen
The ARMY and RAF do because they are recent additions in historical terms to the standing forces.
The Royal Navy is the senior service and as it was formed in England under King Henry VII for the protection of the nations sea going assets by Royal approval.
The Army have historically overthrown Royalty (Charles I) that's why they have to swear an oath (and stand up to take it, the Royal Navy doesn't as joining the service assumes you are already loyal)
Well, yet again a Labour own-goal. There is no way this is going to happen. My nephew had to swear an oath when he joined the army, not because he wanted to, he was required to. If he didn't he could not have joined. I nor any of the rest of my immediate family would ever swear an oath to an english queen or what is thought of as an "english" flag. I have no problem with the queen but she should realise that she is elizabeth the 1st in Scotland an she should be addressed as such. The Duke of Rothesay is always know as that in Scotland. Sad, sad, sad ......labour
My Scots 4th year pupils experience no difficulty whatsoever in swearing. What's the problem?
No.78 is right-- How very UN-British.
The way we are going with "veterans","loyalty oaths","armed forces day" etc, we would be as well having Gordon Brown as governor of Britain, the 51st state in actuality. We could maybe then have some voice.
In Fife, I'm from Cowdenbeath,In Scotland from Fife, In the UK from Scotland and in the USA I'm a Brit.I do not need any ID card or any other window dressing to be proud of our history.Yes I know about the bad bit's but this Government is destroying, not encouraging unity
As far as England is concerned, they only see Britain as England. They are perfectly happy for Americans to believe this illusion. So this is a no brainer for me. We know Brown has lost the plot over his idea of 'Britishness'. He certainly has no sensitivity about his own country of origin, Scotland.
Hey Brian, repeat after me,
AS LONG AS BUT A HUNDRED OF US REMAIN ALIVE,NEVER WILL WE UPON ANY CONDITIONS BE BROUGHT UNDER ENGLISH RULE.
Now a short pause to catch breath and mentally clear the mind to recant one of the greatest lines in recorded history,are you sitting comfortably ,then we will begin ,after me-
IT IS IN TRUTH,NOT FOR GLORY,NOR RICHES,NOR HONOURS THAT WE ARE FIGHTING,BUT FOR FREEDOM--FOR THAT ALONE,WHICH NO HONEST MAN GIVES UP BUT WITH LIFE ITSELF.
No need for any modern British crap,its all there from before,long before,and indeed it was used as the base for another Declaration the start of America.
There is no way that my son will swear to one. He is not growing up to be a second class citzen. He will he is SCOTTISH and not britishish. If the PM wants to promote britishish why did he not have his children in england?????