Leaving bigotry in the past
Bigotry, it seems, is devolved.
More accurately, Scotland and Northern Ireland are contriving to share experiences in tackling the problem.
Today a team from Northern Ireland is at Holyrood explaining how they attempt to counter sectarian awareness and, hence, bigoted attitudes in children as young as three.
Scotland, it is suggested, might follow suit.
Here’s a personal reflection.
When I first moved to Glasgow (from Bonnie Dundee via London), I was struck by the extent of casual
sectarianism.
Middle class suits regularly made passing remarks, supposedly droll, about religious division.
Newspaper diaries were replete with tedious tales about Coatbridge and/or Larkhall, the Orange and the Green.
It was seemingly endemic, unchallenged - and mind-numbing twaddle.
To some extent, of course, it was Northern Ireland lite.
Football fans were apparently keen to spend a spell guarding walls across the sea - or were anxious to assure us that soldiers were they.
Hopefully, both tendencies are in decline.
Each time I visit Northern Ireland - and I shall be back again on Monday - it is the mundane which intrigues me, not ancient tensions.
When Jack McConnell visited Stormont - and spoke very well - he was questioned in detail about basic policy; from education to fisheries to housing.
There was plainly a hunger for elementary politics, quite apart from the constitutional maze that commonly characterises our view of Northern Ireland.
On Monday, Alex Salmond will hold talks with both Dr Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness.
Think of it.
The Scottish National Party, the Democratic Unionists, Sinn Fein.
All diverse, all with different agendas.
But all ministers with devolved power, seeking common cause - partly as a counter-weight to London power.
All alert to historic and constitutional tensions. But all constrained to deal with the mundane.
To educate their people, to keep them healthy and to find them work.
Compared with those challenges, sectarianism and bigotry are bogus nonsense.
PS: Sports news. So there I was, taking part in a Dads v Lads football match. (Whaddya mean, grow up? I’ll have you know that 20 years and several pounds ago, I was a notably average football player.) So it gets to a penalty shoot-out. Then sudden death. And, yes, I blootered my spot kick over the bar. Cue hysterical shrieking from our youthful opponents. And you tell me you’ve known pain.
I'm 
Comments
Utter nonsense, Brian.
No one - not one politician, journalist or social commentator - can be taken seriously on the subject until they admit that separating children at the age of five based on religion is feeding bigotry.
Let's get right to the point here: songs and chants at football is not bigotry. The media and politicians - Jack McConnell especially - have been keen to play up a football sectarianism problem in Scotland to try and avoid tackling the real issues. Any social problem is hopelessly over-emphasised.
Rather than the pandering-to-a-vocal-minority, sensationalist nonsense the media is polluted with, I suggest studies by Steve Bruce is a good place to start. The problem is overemphasised. But, then again, if it's big news then the journalists will only be too happy to pick and choose sources to get a story, right?
Yes, I've always been struck by the relaxed attitude where it is viewed as something ' imported from Northern Ireland ', rather than a two - way street.
So we're gonna teach three year olds about how bigotry is wrong... and then send them off to different schools!
If they really want to tackle sectarian and bigoted behaviour then they should bin the segregated schooling as a start.
It shares more in common with the yob/ned culture, which should be their next issue to address.
I left Edinburgh when I was 25 years old. I met and married my wife in England. We stayed in England for about 42 years. No sectarianism whatsoever. Come back up here to find it's as institutionalised, overt and as deep as it was when I left. Sad, sad people.
It's not only the idea of counter-weighing London that's keeping our devolved parliaments on their toes. It's also the new nature of politics in these places. No party can ever again (unless they change the voting system) be totally sure of winning election after election. Very reminiscent of Munich in Germany where the Social Democrats, Greens and Christian Conservatives are locked in an eternal contest to make Munich a better place because whoever is in power usually wields a relatively small majority. Knowing that it's easy to lose that small majority has made Munich a wonderful city to live in with services of a quality that we can only dream of in Glasgow.
I think the everyone but Labour have realised this now...
I don't doubt that sectarianism exists throughout Scotland and that it should be stamped out. However the Executive needs to act against all forms of discrimination.
Interesting enough when a survey was carried out in Glasgow in 2001 it found that only 2% of Glaswegians would be concerned if a Catholic moved next door, and only 1% if Protestants moved in. In contrast figures for concern if refugees moved in were 45%, homosexuals 31%, Muslims 16% and people of a different race 15%.
So yes tackle sectarianism, but do it in the context of combating all forms of discrimination.
I very much agree with Mr Taylor - as someone who also moved from the east to the west coast (Aberdeen to Glasgow) I experienced the same kinds of things - Orange marches and the like.
But as well as "religious" bigotry, let's not also forget other bigotries which sadly exist in Scotland - primarily against the English. I have several English, and Scottish, friends who have left the country because of this. But for some reason it seems OK for Scots to say offensive things about English people.
Dear Mr Taylor,
One of the reasons for bigotry is the
use of denominational schools. If they were absent the denomination fed at school level would be absent.
Also,our educational system would be a more economic unit without denominational schools.
This might also help Muslim integraton.
John Hughes
At last! How dismal is it that ten years of Nu labour propped up and supported the bigots and silly protests on both sides of the Irish divide. Ian Paisley has proven to more flexible than Jack McConnell which will come as shock to many Scots. Brian should not forget that added to his extraordinary list of British political leaders enjoying power could be that of the Plaid Cymru leader Wyn Jones which could leave London's Gordon Brown isolated in British politics.
I find it disgraceful the way we try to portray the bigotry in Scotland and how it is Scotland’s shame. Yes indeed bigotry is shameful but I must point out that it is mainly in the West of Scotland and was fueled by the Irish immigrants of yesteryear. These days it is fueled by politicians and so called religious authorities whom are scared of integration. Sectarianism starts at school and unless we start to abolish these denominational schools we will never rid ourselves of this disgraceful behavior which has no place in a new a modern Scotland. If the Irish catholics and protestents can finally accept peace in Northern Ireland do you not think it's about time the west of Scotland did the same?
Another excellent report Brian. Having worked in Glasgow for the last ten years I've noticed similar things. Mind you as a friend once said "Glasgow isn't on the west of Scotland - it's in Ireland!".
I'd be interested in your thoughts on the Executives spending committments. What with abolishing bridge tolls and the graduate endowment amongst do you think they might be leaving themselves short for a pre-election bribe in a few years time.
To kill the shadow, we need light; '... let there be light ... ...'
ALL this bigotry is cold sombre shadow. While it looms, the nation will suffer Season Affective Disorder (SAD). We need to let the law be a light of hope and banish these shadows by making all forms of bigotry illegal. We all know that Jail isn't an option, but severe community service, a hefty fine and/or put on a relevant awareness program (for life if need be) may be the element in the bulb or the wick in the candle we need.
My main fear for the future is the 'hate' of redheads. I have a redhead Son and though he has little or no hassle in his young innocent age, I fear for his future. Being targeted because of looks, race, and/or creed... it has a knock-on effect.
If a Butterfly flapping its wings on one side of the World really could lead to a hurricane on the other side of the World, then so could bigotry from a little Child eventually work it's way through time to be a war anywhere.
I assume that Brian Taylor is the person who moderates the comments and that it is his decision alone that decrees which comments appear on the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ website.
I would be interested to see if he replies to my earlier comments regarding bigotry.
I think one of the major factors that increase religious sectarianism is the lack of knowledge both parties have about one another.
I know many Catholics who thought the protestant faith was about being a "non-believer" in god, or atheist in other words.
I have met many Orangemen in my days that don't understand what Catholicism is about, and I have met many Catholics who do not understand the reason for the orange men.
I believe these areas must be covered, and it's time to get rid of separate religious schools within Scotland.
As far as I am aware you are are a ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ Political journalist, why on earth are you recounting your boyish personal football match on a ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ Political Blog?
Would it not be more appropriate to examine the potential dispute between Holyrood and Westminster.
Ironic that, in the football context, both Celtic and Rangers fans go at it as if they're miles apart when they both vote in large numbers, to retain the union. From one group, it's obvious but why do so many Celtic fans attack the union flag when many vote to retain it?
Labour, of course, have exploited this and will change their political posturing depending if they're in Larkhall or Coatbridge.
A Scotland without the intollerant religious baggage of old would never have sold it's sovereignty that's for sure. Here's hoping we can get it back again and can all respect each others beliefs this time.
I watched young children being asked their religion on TV.
So much for the innocence of youth.I then looked up "sectarian" in the dictionary.
If they practice what they preach, when are the political parties going to mix it on the benches in the Scottish parliament.
There will always be religous bigotry in the west of Scotland, and it begins at home not at school.
seonaidh,Glaschu.
It's all part of the changing face of politics in the UK, the reality of subsidiarity - putting power at a level where it can be best utilised: and the awareness that the power given has to utilised sensibly.
The really interesting shift will be if the proposed Labour / Plaid Cymru coalition also starts getting involved in these conflabs; then you will have a the classic 'Three Witches' from Macbeth scenario.
My only problem is who will be playing Macbeth, Brown or Cameron, and will the independence movement manage to move Birnam Wood to Dunsinane prior to 2010?
The main instigators of sectarianism, in both Scotland and Northern Ireland, are the uneducated. To be blunt, it's not doctors and lawyers who march in orange walks or refer to themselves as 'Fenians'.
Aiming for an excellent standard of education would do much to dissipate the apparent effects of sectarianism as it seems to attract those unable to think for themselves.
In this sense it is no different from any other form of racism; it seems to affect those who struggle to break free of whatever tribal loyalty they were exposed to as youngsters.
Another factor not really explored in the press is the generation gap. I'm in my thirties, and my parents' generation were exposed to a different culture than I was when growing up. My generation don't really care, and it's something we tend to associate with poorly educated people, or football supporters. That more or less rules out educated women for a start, and a reasonable chunk of men who are graduates.
Finally, sectarianism - ugly though it may be - is not Scotland's biggest problem. It's merely one of the easiest to knock about in the press. Although poverty and lack of education aren't the only factors here, it's quite wrong to blame historic factors as the thing to overcome. This implies we all have to struggle to overcome some kind of national misunderstanding - affecting most of us equally. However, I've grown up in the West of Scotland and bigotry hasn't affected me one bit, and I'm not alone.
Scotland's real problems lie elsewhere: poverty, lack of ambition, Calvinism (a far more destructive theme in our history than sectarianism), lack of education etc. We would do much better if our politicians concentrated on the big issues that affect us all, and they'd soon see the truly bigoted dwindle in numbers.
In the mean time, the rest of us are just getting on with it, laughing at the pseudo-politicians grasping for any 'big' issue that will resonate with the media. If parents are daft enough to bring their kids up as bigots in the West of Scotland/N.Ireland mould, then they'll soon find some other stupid thing to pin on them if bigotry is somehow driven out. Surely it's better to tech the kids to just think for themselves: they'll soon realise those other people who look and sound just like them are no different.
I have been surprised by the level of casual racism and sectarianism here in Scotland since ariving three years ago.
On the tube a couple of weeks ago - a Saturday - a group of teenage football supporters were singing sectarian songs. I imagine they had no real understanding of the words or history behind the song, but it was saddening all the same.
Whilst I have seen no sign at all from senior SNP figures that they have racist/sectarian tendencies, I am struck when speaking to SNP voters how there is often a 'Scotland for the Scots' subtext which is very worrying.
I agree that sectarianism is past it's worst these days. That being the reason why i can't understand the snp maybe backing seperate muslim schools.
When i started school at 5 this was when i realised that my pals whom i played football with were different & as years go by in school it means even this late on in life most of them are protestant as being together or being familiar with them in school,it still stays the same.
Considering the tensions between muslims & christians in the world at the moment,this idea of seperate muslim schools is insane,which will lead to even more division
I was brought up in Edinburgh by parents not from that city. Through my own choice I started supporting Hibs when I was just a small boy.I am not a Catholic (or associated with any organized religion)and nobody in the east of Scotland ever supposed I was Hibs supporter because I was Catholic. How different when I had to do a stint of work on the west coast!
It·s all a bit sad really.
I couldn't agree more Brian. Although sectarianism is a problem in Scotland, it's been made far too much of and given far more attention than it deserves.
The moronic attitudes are dying out year by year and I think they almost constant chatter about "Scotland's Shame" simply makes people take entrenched positions.
It's really not as big a problem as it's made out to be and Scotland has bigger fish to fry.
I'm a 27 year old Catholic and I've had more sectarian abuse from atheists than I have protestants. But that's another story.
The sectarianism debate in Scotland, in it's current form, consumes people and is unhelpful.
Brian......silly question I know, but where you in Florence last May?
I'm sure I saw you at the Galleria de'll Accadamia
bogus nonsense is a little simplistic. If this was bogus then so to would be any religious faith based organisation. (a different argument with which I may agree !) However, I'm sorry to have to say that, like it or not,most of the rest of Scotland just does not get how the west sees itself. Being
brought up in and still living in darkest Lanarkshire I've benefited from an unique education which ensured I always knew which foot was which. It saddens me that my children have the same skill. Moreover, I don't see much that will make them the last generation to do so, despite the best efforts of our cousins in the provinces. For the West of Scotland finally to get rid of this deep rooted sore, it and the rest of Scotland need to treat it with the seriouness it deserves. Its a deep problem that lives with you from the age of 5, is promoted by vested interests, is subtle and yet obvious and it rests on principles that are strenthed most Saturday afternoons AND Sunday mornings by the very "best" the west has to offer.
Tear it all down as fast you can but don't dismiss it as bogus.
Coming from Aberdeen I've just never got this whole bigotry issue. It just doesn't exist up here. Why does it matter which church (if any) you attend or which school you went to?
Brian, as a fellow East-Coaster - Aiberdeen, ken - let's be honest here and talk about the problem as a West Coast, specifically Glasgow area, disgrace. There were plenty Irish immigrants settled in Dundee, but you don't remember any problem there do you?
And one of our local Catholic primary schools - there are 3 in Aberdeen - is a safe haven for nearly 20 nationalities and languages, Muslims, Hindus, Jewish families and quite a few local proddies too.
The root of the problem is TOLERANCE!
Tolerance of ignorance, bigotry and the alien notion - alien throughout the rest of Scotland anyway - that thuggish, bullying behaviour was ever o.k. in a civilised society.
The only way to stop bigotry is to scrap "faith" schools. Put all the children in the same school and keep religeon OUT. In 20 - 30 years there will be no bigotry. My son was subject to bigorty by the Roman catholic clergy some 20 years ago when his school was closed and he was forced into an already overcrowded school so that the premices could be used to house half the number of RC kids. I lest my home town of Paisley due to that. My son and daughters then went to a totally non-denominational school and now have friends of various faiths who were all taught together. It is the religeous leaders who cause the bigotry.
Excellent comment, as ever, Brian.
It is highly commendable that efforts are being made by the Executive to tackle religious bigotry. But we must teach tolerance to young Scots as early as possible, or remember Sydney Smith's dictum, when it is too late: "Never try to reason the prejudice out of a man. It was not reasoned into him, and cannot be reasoned out."
My parents still tell me that they will never vote SNP because it stands for 'Strictly No Papes'. So, is it all Irish-immigrant paranoia, or does the land of my birth still not welcome those of us whose origins lie in the Republic over the Irish Sea? Brian may try to gloss over it, and as a Dundonian I wonder how much experience he really has of it, but the bigotry is still there.
SNP, DUP and Sinn Feinn in one room together, Plaid Cymru and Labour in Wales, Wee Eck invited to have tea with the Taisoch in Dublin: no wonder Westminster is worried, it is the very amalgamation that they have been trying to prevent since the 13th Century political policies of Edward the first.
This time, though, Westminster will not be able to send in the troops to enable their will to be enforced - what a hoot, no wonder Gordon is extremely quiet on President Tony's utterances over the last few weeks he is going to have to deal with as Prime Minister!
Westminster sending in the troops Peter. That would be ironic with Scot Gordon as PM. Very reminiscent of the Highland Clearances don't you think?
My opinion will not be welcomed by those who claim to have the answers to sectarianism or bigotry, we are all guilty to some degree of sectarianism, bigotry or racism; these are basic tribal responses, they are endemic, inherent and are often wittingly and unwittingly taught by families.
Many who claim to be free from these biases are either keeping their feelings under control or are in denial; we are what we were moulded at home, school and work.
True that in many countries these tribes are not as clearly identifiable as they are in Scotland, but nevertheless they exist in every country, alternatively there are instances where these factions are much worse than the Scottish experience; the former Yugoslavia and Iraq are clear examples where tribal hatred is exposed when the laws and the officers who enforced that law which kept them in check are removed.
Separation has the greatest potential for producing sectarianism; this has even been admitted by one church supporter of denominational education.
Our schools should be limited by law to educating all children in subjects such as maths, English and physics; all children should be taught that they are equal no one group is better or worse than an other, keep religious education for home and their chosen houses of worship.
These new classes at school may be well intended but children will be confused when they hear family members or those in some elevated position in their communities expressing contradictory opinions to what they are being taught; the message must be the same from all those who interface with all children.
All the 'ban the faith schools' crowd are barking up the wrong tree. I went to a Catholic school in Glasgow. I had friends who went to non-denominational schools. I still have friends who went to non-denominational schools! We were not taught bigotry at school - kids pick that up at HOME.
Tam Thebam (and others) - while in Tarbat Ness, I was told that as I was from Glasgow I wasn't really Scottish, and to go back to Ireland. I think the problem is not just a Glasgow/West Coast problem, is it? This also worries me, in view of the 'Scotland for the Scots' viewpoint referred to by Michael (post #1)
(i)#27 Lilly wrote:
My parents still tell me that they will never vote SNP because it stands for 'Strictly No Papes'.(i/)
Lilly - I had the opposite. My father (an orangeman) claimed that the SNP were anti-Unionist (correct) ergo equal to Irish Nationalists, therefore 'not our kind'
Let us both move forward realising that the truth must be somewhere in the middle!
The idea that the SNP is some sort of anti Catholic party is ridiculous.
Yes, the SNP, the party that wishes to take Scotland out of the British State and in future have a referendum on the future of the monarchy, have a Protestant/sectarian vision! It wasn't that long ago the Orange Order demanded it's members not to vote for the SNP remember.
The old 'divide and rule' still being played out by the BRITISH Labour Party I see.
Schools should be for education, I think they should all be non denominational. If you want to practise religion then attend services at your church, chapel, mosque etc.
#36
Bigotry is a most horrible thing, but segragating schools does not help it. What is also unacceptable is the PC brigade that are trying to stamp out bigotry have created an atmosphere where you cant even think things that might be a bit inappropriate. Common if you advocate free speech sometimes you are going to hear things you might find offensive.
"I must point out that it is mainly in the West of Scotland and was fueled by the Irish immigrants of yesteryear"
Are you serious? In the early 19th century, there were more anti-Catholic establishments in Glasgow than Catholics. To say that the Irish brought and fuelled sectarianism is akin to arguing that there would be no racism if those Africans had stayed where they were.
And as for the schools argument...
Bigotry is incontrovertibly taught at home, and I normally find that those who have a problem with Catholic schooling tend to have a problem with Catholics. Once 'their' schools are closed, then what next? Start on the campaign to get rid of chapels?
Nothing will work until we start teaching our kids in the same classes. It is difficult to form a hatred of the boys you play tig with, no matter what your parents tell you.
43 emails and 2 supporting denominational schools...
For those against them, if you removed such schools I suppose, like racism, sectarianism would not be a problem in Scotland?! We have racially mixed schools but I believe we still have racism. This is not the answer.
If we look to England (or even Aberdeen) there are denominational schools there too - is Sectarianism a problem? So are such schools even the problem?
Finally if the schools are a division, is this a freedom the people of Scotland should be denied? Do we accept the argument that immigrants (eg Irish) have to conform and if they don't (eg they establish their own education establishments) they get what they deserve?
I commend #21 and (parts) of #35 (I think we disagree over my third paragraph and I don't believe his second last paragraph is accurate).