Rome learns to love rugby
- 9 Mar 07, 05:04 PM
Rome - There is money at stake for Italians tomorrow.
If they can beat Wales and record their second win of the championship then they will each pick up a bonus of 拢15,000.
Forget the pride of recording back-to-back victories in the Six Nations for the first time, this is also about pounds and pence, or euros and cents.
No-one is entirely sure why they have that . Andrea Scanavacca might not be Dan Carter but he did the business against Scotland.
Having said that Ramiro Pez was banging them over from his own half in the sunshine at the this lunchtime.
A couple of hours later, Stephen Jones was out practising with the Mitre ball that he鈥檚 not used to playing with.
And I know it鈥檚 only a small point but isn鈥檛 it time for the same ball, , to be used for every match?
There is a real confidence in the home camp; Italian and swagger have never been too far away from each other...
But this time there is substance to it as well. The players are thrilled they can start reading the papers from the front page rather than the back.
They say they could have sold the stadium out two times over, such is the renewed interest.
Welsh supporters wandering by this morning hoping for tickets were disappointed. The Irish fans without tickets will be looking for similar bars next week.
Star names like Mauro Bergamasco have been in demand on TV chat shows over the last fortnight, sofas in studios once the exclusive preserve of footballers are now being occupied by rugby players.
The Italian sporting public are fed up with the - and rugby offers a pleasing antidote.
It does make one wonder what would happen to Argentine rugby if the Tri-Nations ever took their heads out of the southern sands and invited the Pumas in.
By the way, reads:-
10 Scotland
9 Italy
8 Wales
7 England
6 Argentina
5 Ireland
The only thing to temper Italian enthusiasm is talk of what happens after the Word Cup when Alessandro Troncon finally goes, and the never-ending search for a reliable fly-half kicks on.
No-one in Wales will want this tomorrow, but another Italian win would suggest they really are a world power who have finally earned their place on the top table.
What defeat would mean for Wales and Gareth Jenkins is an entirely different subject...
Wales 27-18 England
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Italy I feel will win on Saturday. I think Italy will dominate the set pieces and their forwards could really put pressure on the Welsh pack. Wales talk a good game, but since 2005, what have they done? I do not think that Wales have the beef upfront to worry Italy- you can have the most skillfull backline of all time but your side will never win unless quality ball is provided by the forwards. I think the Welsh tight 5 will be in for a roaasting come scrum time!
An Italy win on saturday- not just do good for the players, but it would be great for world rugby. It must be in all the 'big' nations' best interest to promote the not so well known teams through extra publicity,funding etc in order for rugby to grow worldwide. I thought that staging the 2011 RWC in New Zealand was a dreadful decision. Japan should have got it- as the infrastructure is so much better. New Zealand could barely host all the Lions fans- 2011 will be like sardines in a tin!
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Yes, world rugby needs more nations at the top table. Argentina in the Quad-Nations sounds great, Argentina, Samoa and Fiji in the "Six Nations (South)" even better. the tri-Nations are too old fashioned and set in their ways to try it though!
In the meantime Italy finishing this season with two home wins; sounds perfect. Don't suppose it will happen but it would be a story the RWC marketing guys would give their right arms for. Just the thing to generate interest in the tournament to the wider world.
The trouble is that if Italy beat Wales England might just be blown to smithereens by the backlash in Cardiff. Oh god! Who should an Englishman cheer for?
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I am glad the Italians are going well and getting more respect. They deserve it as do the Argentinians. The quicker they are incorporated into the TrNations the better.
As for Rome, I am hoping for a welsh win done with style and plenty of tries. However, reality suggests that the Italians will turn the Welsh over and we will pick up a wooden spoon just before the world cup - a nightmare scenario for any welshman. Lets hope I am wrong. C`mon Wales!!
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Can you imagine the reaction from the press and from all those who do not wish Wales well, if Italy give us a going over tomorrow? This is the most important match for Wales for many years. It is more important than the first match v Ireland, which was lost and which we should have won. Wales has to win tomorrow. What bonus are the W players on? I've read that the I's are on 拢15k each!
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I think one of the most inntersting questions of tomorrows game is how Italy cope with the expectation? Tickets selling like hot cakes, tv and radio interviews all based on the Scotland result, great display that it was. Yes rubgy is suddenly on the Italian front page but with that comes pressure. A pressure of the type the Azzuri will be far from use to at international level. The pressure to win!
What happens if a Welsh team galvanised by the critics and looking much more first choice and match ready than before in this championship play to their potential? Will an Italian defeat mean rugby is once again cosigned to the back pages?
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I personally think it will be a tight game but Wales can run in a few tries if the get good possesion and don't give Italy 3 tries like their last match. I think all the away teams will win this weekend.
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I think Wales will win the kicking game even if it is with a Mitre ball, but if they continue their poor form, Italy will be spurred on by a good local crowd, retain possession and keep Wales pinned allowing for some brief moments of speed to win the majority of try's.
Handy-legend,
A good summary. I'm hoping for an Italy win for all the right reasons about expanding the popularity of the sport.
(off topic) I couldn't agree more about the terrible decision not to award the 2011 RWC to Japan)
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When Italy joined the 5 Nations, I did forsee a 5 year trial period, but that said, there is no disrespect in a team joining the Rugby tournament envied worldwide.
I Rate Italy and Argentina big time, they are awesome. Every team and country has highs and lows but Italy are catching everybodies imagination, Soccer is corrupt and overhyped and I have more stuff to add, but I won't.
Anyhoo I am a proud North Walian, (yes we love Rugby in North Wales), but Saturday is gonna be tense, Italy at home with a new found passion for the game, will be pumped to F (bleep). But Wales are amazing with a full on task to do well, and WE can do it.
Cymru am Byth, HAV IT!
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I'm primarily an (association) footie fan with a peripheral interest in rugby; but like most Italians, I'm always willing to sing when my side is winning, which is why I visited tonight. Let's hope for a cracking game tomorrow; first and foremost, though, congrats to the contributors for the level of debate on this board - it's so refreshing to see balanced views in sport. Compared to the childish rubbish in 606's footie area, this is Norman Mailer. Maybe I'm following the wrong sport.
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The home side getting to pick the make of ball should be a legitimate part of home advantage - in the same way that it always has been in international cricket (where Australia for example use Kookaburra balls, which behave significantly differently to Dukes and Reader balls in England).
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Hope I am proved wrong, but I am afraid Wales will win tomorrow. Italy will pay for Berbizier's puzzling decision to drop Scanavacca in favor of Pez. The former is a more accomplished goal-kicker while Pez has an habit of missing the real important shots (see Cardiff last year). Moreover, Pez's shaky defence will require extra attention by the Italian backrow close to the scrum, thus giving more options to the Welsh midfield. Finally, most of the Italian fans have no real confidence in Pez and this might show if he gets something wrong in the early phases of the game. So we might end up losing the game, and also having both our fly-halves' confidence in tatters. Of course, this scenario is plausible only if Wales get their fair share of the ball - which I think they will, especially in the lineouts.
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Wales easily I think. They got little ball against France but still managed a good few points (including a few missed kicks). As long as they don't play a static forward game (like England and dire Scotland did) then they should run the points in.
Argentina in the TriNations - two reasons for NO :
- Player burn out, too many games already.
- Money. The current TV money is barely enough to keep our southern players from going north, so there is no way even one cent will be given up.
As most of the Argentian team play in Europe they may as well join the 6Ns as at least they'll be playing in season - and maybe Argentina A (home based players) can join NZ A and Aussie A in the tournament with the Pacific teams.
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Plenty of pessimism about the welsh chances here. However all the bookmakers make Wales favourites to win by around 6 points.
On Argentina joining the tri-nations: there is a good argument (rehearsed a couple of weeks ago on the Guardian web site) that , as virtually all of their professional players are playing in europe that joining the northern hemisphere tournament would make better sense. Making it a quad-nations would mean the Argentinians would be playing about 14 months a year for club & country. Up here they wouldn't be playing any more than the rest of the top players. Although a trip to South America for a game might appeal to a wealthy few, basing them in Spain would make better economic sense. Barcelona (home one of Spain's leading Rugby teams) would , I 'm sure, be an attractive trip for many fans. And the buzz of the big matches might help Spanish rugby.
And while we're at it let at least one Italian 'regional' team of some sort join the Magners league. Their experienced players may be all in England or France but their younger players can only benefit from the better competition and strengthen Italian rugby.
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i hope Italy win. iv played rugby in italy and there are teams and individuals with skill (in particular Rugby Rovato/Leonessa in the north of Italy - WOW! we were played off the park at times!). im scottish and although i was disappointed about the defeat to the Azzuri, i wasnt embarrassed (not because it was Italy anyway!) and happy for them because it has been a long time coming, and Italy thoroughly deserve to reap some of the benefits. They now need to prove to themselves and everyone else that scotland did not in fact gift them the win (although if we ignore the first 7minutes of that game, the score actually works out to be 17-16 to scotland!) and they ran england to the wire didnt they? one wonders the outcome if JW hadnt been playing that day...a win against Wales will cement Italy's status as a rugby power in the world make the world cup that extra bit interesting!
and as for argentina, it should have already been made the quad-nations by now. give argentina a couple of years playing the other southern hemisphere powers (notice argentina is S.H. too) and they will be a huge force to be reckoned with! they beat england AT twickenham didnt they? and gave France a close game. lets see what happens...
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"And I know it鈥檚 only a small point but isn鈥檛 it time for the same ball, whether it is Mitre, Gilbert or whatever, to be used for every match?"
Isn't it time professional rugby player played what's in front of them?
I remember Brendan Laney trying to use the "Not used to a Mitre" excuse when he was kicking for Scotland in Rome.
Everyone knows they use a Mitre so surely they put in few extra practice sessions at home using one? Or is that being too simple?
Or is that denying them an excuse?
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it's about time that italy stopped getting that awfull spoon. Their cutlery drawer is too full.
come on azzuri (and all this from an englishman).
we had steven jones saying yesterday that the welsh backs were too good for Italy.
maybe they are but the welsh pack (with the exception of the 2 flankers) on this years showing would struggle against otley under 14's 3rd team.
backs run in the tries but they can't if they don't have the ball. a pack that doesn't provide any ball totally nullifies any percieved advantage in the back line. barring serge blanco type spells of counter attacking wizzardry and welshmen haven't done that since the ex british pike record holder played for them.
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Excellent idea posted by Gareth about basing the Argentine team in Spain, similar is done in the Pacific teams competition where a lot of the games are played in NZ (and probably Aus now since they have joined the comp this year).
And Italy may have a better tight phase pack than the Welsh - but if the forwards play a hard, mobile, impact game that they have produced quite often over the last few years then Italy should be over-run.
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Wales seems to have gone backwards again. We were in the doldrums back in the 80s when we suffered defeat after defeat, and decisive ones at that too, and national and team morale was at an all time low.
We rightly deserved the Scottish defeat this year, though Scotland weren't all that good. We just happened to be a lot worse, with about as much spark as a damp squib!
I love Italy, and if they beat Wales today then great for them. Of course, I want Wales to come out on top, but the way we've played in this year's 6 Nations doesn't give me much confidence. And with the World Cup just around the corner, we can forget any aspirations in that direction.
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re no 9.
Like most welsh then coming out after he grand slam.
Please don't start criticising England fans - we've never really had any - not many at Twickenham anyway......
I used to like watching French games because they had a different ball - what a shame they changed.
Last point Italians a bit richer after today - good luck to them - just don't kick our arses next year.
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Morning of the game and I feel slightly more positive than the week running up to it. Wales should win, but it will be close. The way I see the game going is thus: Italy wil start like a house on fire, backed by t he crowd and their confidence and camp us in our 22 for the first twenty minutes. However, we hold them out (our defence has actually benn very good, especially againt Scotland) and they get frustrated. We gradually get into it, taking quick tap penalties and running the ball a bit. Stephen Jones to finally find his kicking game. This new found Italian confidence, as pleasing as it is to see, is fragile and if it falls apart they could collapse.
Argentina: lets have them in the 7N's - if the tri nations are too short sighted to bring them on board then lets welcome them with open arms and base them in northern Spain. Hell, while we're at it, I think there should be a "lower tier" of countries (Romania, Georgia, Spain, Russia, Portugal) etc who play for the right to play off against the bottom team in the 7N's proper. Thoughts?
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Well Westwalesed I admire your confidence but do not think the Italians are that fragile now. I do agree they will start on fire but as they did with England they will paly the full 80 minutes leading to a close win for them. Like your idea about the 7nations not sure about Romania etc think they are a step to far of top level pace.
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Well this Welshman would like to see an Italian win today. Jenkins is out of his depth and his off the wall selections and odd tactics (why is Steven Jones standing so deep?) indicate that we need a new coach before the World Cup.
If a wooden spoon would lead to losing Jenkins before the World Cup then bring it on.
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I really hope Italy win tonight - not due to a dislike of Wales, i just think it would be a great shot in the arm for both Italian and world rugby.
As an Aussie, i totally agree with some of the suggestions about including Argentina into the Tri-Nations. The tournament is stale and needs something to freshen it up again. Of course the SANZAR nations are too greedy to share the revenue from tv rights, sponsorship, etc.
Go Azzuri!
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As an long time Rugby supporter of Italy and Australia, I really hope that Italy will finally lift off.
I love the six nations tournament and the try nations because of the intensity and rivalrly that exists among the participants.
Viva L'italia & Go Aussie
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Forget about Spain. The easiest way to create a successful Argentinian side in the Tri-nations is to a) create a Super 14s side based out of Buenos Aires which (given financial backing) will bring the Argentinans back from Europe to a permanent base. B) likewise with Madrid, you could base Argentina in Melbourne (most cosmopolitan city in Australasia) or they could just stay in Argentina.
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Italy are coming good, and it's truly been a pleasure to watch them certainly come of age over the past few games, months and years.
But, my heart always lies with blind optimism so although I envisage a good game of rugby today I think that wales will win by at least 7 points.
As for Argentina making it a 7Nations. I would love to see it. After beating Wales in both tests in Argentina, as with what we're seeing with Italy now, we've already seen with Argentina, growing and improving.
And over time the Six Nations having two divisions also sounds like a very good and promising idea!
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in response to 'handylegend' what have italy ever done in rugby terms? answer - a big zero!
Wales to win today comfortably! Italy have nothing to give to the world game whatsoever! Watching them is like listening to paint dry! a ponderous, overweight rabble. when they try to actually play some rugby it might be worth having them in the championship, as theyve contributed nothing in their 7 years!
Wales to win with flair and style, then its the same for england at cardiff!
then welsh flair to take us to at least the world cup semis!
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The only thing about basing Argentina in Madrid for a 7 Nations is that the world balance would just not be correct. By having so many of the top teams, (I am not saying the best), in one competition, it takes some of the value away from the RWC. It would mean too much familiarity between 7 of the 10 countries that can realistically make the Quarter-Finals on a regular basis. Argentina should join the existing Tri-Nations which is just a bit boring because of its structure with so few teams and little opportunity for an upset to keep it interesting. The rugby is top class, but the winner is usually predictable after the first two matches.
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Leigh says that Italy have nothing to give the world game ... hmm, not so sure about this.
How about for starters, Diego Dominguez, one of the top points scorers in international rugby and Heineken Cup history. But he's retired, so lets look at the more current options. The Italian pack is arguably the best 'tight' unit in the 6N - possibly a weakness if the game gets open and they are moved around the park a lot, which is perhaps Wales' best chance.
I would argue strongly that Castrogiovanni and Bortolami are two Italian players that would be likely to make a World squad, and would have at least a reasonable chance of starting. Of the home nations, only Ireland could realistically claim the same (O'Connell and O'Driscoll, perhaps ROG on the bench). Wales might put up Peel, England and Scotland ???
I don't really mind where Argentina play - whether its northern in the 7N or south in a revised southern hemisphere tournament. The northern option is the easier to make work now, given where the elite Argentinian players are based - the southern option of a Super 14 side (Super 16 with a Pacific Islands team?) is probably better for longterm development of rugby in S America. I hope that Argentina reach the WC semis and shame the traditional rugby nations into including them in regular tournaments/fixtures.
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Great to see the Italians show progress in the 6N and I hope it continues with a solid win over Wales. Italy's contribution since it joined the 6N suggests that it's time that consideration be given to restructuring the tournament, by introducing a second and perhaps third division, with promotion and relegation. For example Spain, Roumania, Canada, USA, Argentina, Georgia and so on participating annually in a tournament would be a great incentive to rugby in each of these countries. Better than the World Cup anyway, where defeat by one of the big boys is inevitable.
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I hope Italy do well the have the home advantage but Wales are a strong team.
Another thing I love is the fact that you can go to rugby game. And stand in the opposition end a feel the passion. Do this in a football match you only feel aggression. Football is going to the dogs!
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While I admire the committment of the Italian players, I have to disagree with their quality as highlighted by a couple of posters - none of their team (including the big lads mentioned) would make a Southern Hemisphere squad let alone a world squad. In the forwards alone they are up against the talented and big AB front five and the just enormous SA front five.
And back to Argentina - we would love them in the southern tourny, but realistically (player location, money) means a lot will have to change first. I think development of their rugby could have an immediate start with them in a northern tournament and their A team joining NZ & Aus A with Japan & the Pacific teams.
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RWC in Japan, are you joking? What happens when Japan go out in the first round? Are they going to pay the Japanese to sit in all those empty seats waving other nations flags?
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Do not forget another improving nation Portugal face Urugauy in the world cup qualifer them and Georgia both looking good.
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Wales will pound Italy, you lot are talking bull.
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It is fantastic that the Italian team have really improved to the point were rugby is driving soccer off the sports pages in the Italian press.
What a pity that the 成人快手 do not do their share to spread the game internationally. I live in UK and pay a UK 成人快手 licence fee but I work in Poland and rely on the Five Live broadcasts via my computer to hear rugby games. Due to the commercial deals done by the 成人快手 with my money I cannot hear any England matches from Twickenham but I can hear all other matches. However, even this was screwed up on Saturday when the 成人快手 cut off the broadcast from Murryfield with 7 minutes to go. It is as though the 成人快手 were trying to destroy the spread of the game.
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So here we go would be great to be in Italy, sun on your back and a nice glass of vino to go with champagne rugby. Come on the Azzuri, lets have a surprise!!
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it wasn't the punch that cut s jones' eye; it was the impact with gough (i think) a split second before.
i am sick of biased commentary on tv, particularly that english idiot b. moore.
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I am really sick of Jonathan Davis commentating. He is very boring, makes the game sound dull, and sounds like he is complaining all the way through the match. Please can we get someone who at least sounds excited about the prospect of watching international rugby?
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Disgusting. That's all I can say. The referee told them they had time to take the line-out, then went back on his discussion. Throughout the game the officials showed just how bad they were. The ref was a lier and certainly one of the worst I've ever seen. Someone should tell him the rules.
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Now i am not saying that Wales played well enough to win in Rome, but the officiating was truly awful. The referee gave the wrong decision when Hook asked if they had time for a lineout at the end, but also the touch judges were pathetic, surely if they see an idiscretion they should tell the ref!
I really dont want the game to change so that managers can challenge the ref's decision, like in the NFL, but if officiating isn't better there will be no choice.
Now before people suggest my opinion is biased, i think the same was true for Jonny Wilkos true against Scotland....truly pathetic
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Just watched the Italy Wales game, and I have to say that the Italians have a streak of indiscipline and cinicalness that is making them look like bad sportsmen. Not to take from their 2 wins. But its something that Italian Rugby officials and coaches should be swift to remove from their game.
As for the referee, to tell the Welsh one thing and do another is quite unbelievable, I can only imagine how frustrating that must have been for the Welsh players and supporters. Never the less Italy deserved their win, and best of luck to them, and i look forward to our game with them next weekend.
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Italy vs Wales
I have never seen so many terrible decisions. I enjoyed watching the game, but the referee spoilt it, especially at end, disgusting. He shouldn't ref another match.
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Having just watched Wales being cheated out of a much needed win by the referee Chris White, I have to say that he(Ref) makes me feel embaressed to be English. I would just like to add that the touch judges were appalling to.
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The 成人快手 commentary on the Wales v Italy game was again biased. Not only was some regulation 'clearing out' by Mauro Bergamasco turned into a campaign for him to be banned for the rest of the tournament, but the whole tone assumed that all the viewers would be supporting Wales. Why? We find the same thing when English soccer teams are playing against European opposition; the glib and ridiculous assumption that everyone in Britain wants the British team to win.
Commentators should approach the game with journalistic disinterest, not this petty, jingoistic nonsense.
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Can someone please take the linesmen and the ref somewhere and shoot them? Absolutely terrible.
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Sad for Wales - the Italian No.7 (who should have been sent off for punching Steven Jones) scores the winning try. Life can be so unfair - bring on the 3rd referee and let justice be done in future.
Well done, Scotland for running the Irish so close.
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I was horrified at the italian welsh match. Don't think I have ever seen such a biased referee. Bergamasco's assault on Stephen Jones was blatant - the whole world saw it but the touch judges decided to look elsewhere. Every decision went in favour of the home team and then the final lie from the referee to Hook before he kicked for touch in the last seconds - that should be a firing offence and the match should be forfeit.
If growing the base of European rugby means we bring sleaze and bad management into the game - let's do without it.
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Clearly the ref should not have said there was enough time if there wasn't. But Wales should have kicked the goal anyway. Going for the try was unprofessional. White is a referee who seems to get flustered and carried away by the game, and loses control.
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Only caught the end, but the referee should surely be banned from international matches after that decision. He clearly told the Welsh they could kick for touch and take the lineout, but then decided to give the Italians the victory before they could take the lineout.
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What a ridiculous input from the commentary team on the Stephen Jones injury. Clearly trying to 'make' an incident that never was. The contact from Bergamasco could not have led to the injury suffered and the commentary box should be ashamed of themselves for (i) jumping to conclusions and (ii) continually referring back to it in an effort to sensationalise it.
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Re: No 40
The ref was asked "how long to go?" and he said "Ten seconds"... at no time was he asked "Is there time for the line out?"
On other points - yes the general standard of officiating was poor in this game - expecially the touch judges who should have picked up a couple of things highlighted on replays. Having said that I only saw those infringements with the benefit of replays so I can understand how an official can miss them also. I don't agree with the poster who suggested going the NFL route and challenging decisions - the odd poorly reffed game does not call for such drastic action.
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Agreed - either team would have deserved a win, but a plea for consistency. Apparently, White, having given the okay for the line out was informed via his earpiece by an off pitch official that in fact time was up.
So where exactly was the off pitch official when Bergamasco punched Jones, tackled Shane off the ball....
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Isn't that the second time an early tackle has cost Wales a try-scoring position this season (the first being on Czekaj vs Ireland)? Both were in front of the touch judges, so it begs the question: what on earth were they looking at?
And either there is enough time to kick for touch or there is not. In the 70s, a football ref named Clive Thomas blew for full-time at the football World Cup while a shot at goal was in the air. It went in, but he insisted that time was up. He never refereed another World Cup match. What fate awaits the appalling Chris White?
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Please oh please can we drop Jonathan davies from match commentating Wales games or at least have someone alongside who can contradict him from the other team as he is so one sided it puts me off watching the games. One more thing can you not find an Italian who can speak English so at least they are represented either in the studio or commentating on the game.
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Mauro came over swinging his arm deliberately with a closed fist directed into Stephen Jones' face.
What is open to debate here? Nothing that I can see. It was a deleberate punch pure and simple.
It doesn't matter if that was the cause of the cut, and I don't honestly accept any other view. The fact is the deliberate punch was thrown and ignored by the officials.
As for the refereeing, I'm waiting for my blood pressure to drop back down. Chris White should be sacked from all future internationals. In 36 years I have never seen a worse display of officiating at a rugby game.
As for the final try coming from the man who should have been red carded at the 28th minute - that just rubs salt into the wound.
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How can you get angry for the referee???
wales played with no tactics, just pushing and non-sense running.
Italy did not play so well as in scotland, but you cannot say that we didn't deserve to win, it's a total lie.
Referee said "you have ten second", and the wales player lost their time. Sad, but correct decision. Wales should play the ball, not kicking in touche.
Finally, we have been mistreated by referees since our first appearence in six nations, please don't say that now we only win thanks to referees. (with an honest referee, i don't know what could happen in England).
we have 4 points, still 1 homegame to play. We are becoming great, nothing else to say.
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Forget the referee, we should take a long hard look at Gareth's Jenkins selection's.
He needs to be big enough to bench either Simon jones or Hook and play centres in the center and outside halves at outside half.
There were lots of individuals on the wales side and this is a team game.
Well done Italy!! Lets make a small change for England and get some specialists in thier proper positions.
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DC,
The ref WAS asked 'Is there time for a lineout?', check Shane Williams' interview at the end of the game. It is wrong to say he wasn't asked that specific question because Shane, who was standing there on the pitch, says that he was.
Bring in the TV Ref a lot more please.
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He asked the wrong question ..... in effect he asked "How long?" to which the answer was 10 seconds. "Ok to kick to touch?" "Yes". I can see the ref arguing that these are two independant questions. The question that should have been asked was "If I kick to touch, is there time for the throw-in?" The ref can't influence his decision whether or not to kick at goal or not or even to ask the right question ....
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While i agree that both the referee & touch judges were extremely poor throughout that match, i think questions need to be asked about the Wales setup. This is because i honestly believe in Wales we have a squad the quality of which should take out both the likes of Italy & Scotland with relative ease regardless of poor refereeing decisions.
I'm not saying that Jenkins is a bad coach by any means, rather, im wondering whether the qualities that make him a good club coach are translating over to the international game.
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What a truly classic game ! The Azzuri at long last a force to be respected in future , to come forward in the closing minutes to score under the posts with a classic lob kick for an easy conversion is surely the mark of dedicated teamwork and a wonderful , exhilirating finish to the match.
The Welsh were great , a pity they could make no inroads on a sound, well drilled, Italian defence.
Watching Rugby in my old age this must surely rate as one of the best I've watched since September,2003.
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I think it's about time Argentina was let into the Tri Nations, the format of the Six Nations is very good right now and dosen't need to be tinkered with, but since it's about the distance from Australia and New Zealand to either Argentina or South Africa (correct me if I'm wrong) then where's the problem. The idea of having one or more Argy sides in the provincial competitions makes a lot of sense also and may in turn dissuade many of their players from leaving for Europe. There's a lot of potential I would have thought for rugby to become more popular in Argentina given that they are now one of the best teams in the world, this needs to be captialised on and soon.
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I have to disagree with DC.
The ref was asked if there was enough time to take the lineout and he was clearly heard to say 'yes, if you kick for touch now' which Hook duly did!
I don't think Wales deserved to win but the least we can hope from the officials is that they give the team a chance to win!
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Italy fully deserved to win that game i agree that the referee was terrible, the welsh comentator was always blaming the reff why dosent he put some of the blame towards the players they dident defend and should of taken their chances.
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I think White was asked if there was time for the lineout. But he also clearly said there was 10 seconds to go. If an international captain can't work out that doesn't leave enough time for a lineout then that is his problem.
There seems to be a lot of ignorance on here about the role of the TV official as well.
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Any chance the owner of this blog can keep up?
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Can't believe the amount of winging about the Jones-Bergamasco contact! The italian clearly goes for Jones' body, looses eye contact with his target (check his head's position in the replay!) and accidentaly albeit carelessly ends up punching him on his forehead. There is clearly no intent and I bet he is not even going to be cited for it. Stop finding excuses like the ref's bias, the linesmans' competence, the size of the pitch, the cheating of the opposition, the grip of the Mitre ball (all things mentioned today!) and just admit that Italy has come of age. After tonite the IRB ranks Italy 8th, ahead of Scotland and Wales. Forza Azzurri!!!
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Wales lost fair and square.
They were losing with 10 secs to go so what were they hoping for? The only possible points in that time would come from a penalty kick. There was no way they could realistically take a lineout and score a try - unless a miracle took place.
Some-one in the Welsh team made a bad call - they should have taken the kick at goal. There's no point blaming anyone else. They should have taken the draw.
The person who called the touchline kick holds responsibility for the final result.
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The ref conceded a penalty, and time to kick it, Wales refused it (and just a draw) after the 80th minute, every break is good for the final whistle
Penalty allowed = Game Stopped (before 80th)
Wales kicks it = Game restarts (but not for the 3 points)
minute 80 is past
touch = Game is stopped again
final whistle
simple, flat, rules of rugby
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Thank so much ITALY...
Thanks so much...
Second win for the first time at Six Nations.
Our rugby's school is growing up.
Thanks so much ITALY
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You do know Helen that in Rugby play goes on until the ball is dead i.e. in touch? If they took the line out they could play for another 10 mins as long as the ball doesn't go out!
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As a Welshman, it grieves me to say that
a) Italy played better, had more possession, more territory so deserved to win
b) Bergamasco did not cause Stephen Jones injury - he was stitched over his right eye and Begamasco clouted him on his left cheek/jaw
c) we made the wrong decision in kicking for touch with 10 seconds to go - a tap penalty would have been way more sensible...or just taking the points
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Ciao Alessandro,
you go well to remember to the getlteman how many times in these years the referees have been mistreated us only hissing to favor of our adversaries! Boys continue therefore, you are strong, do not stop winning just now!?!
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You do know Brigeen that in rugby the ball going into touch is not the only way for it to go dead?
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tommy 80 minutes had gone before hook had kicked the ball. the ref got it wrong he should have stood by his descision
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It is not a case of there is time or no time left. The laws of the game (regulation 5) explain all this. Basically if a team has a PENALTY play carries on until another stoppage, unless that is also another penalty to the same side. Similar in a way to RL where play carries on after the hooter until another stoppage/tackle occurs. Ref White was wrong to call time as a penalty had been awarded an Wales were in the right to play it.
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Will Chris White be held to account?
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As Italian, I'm happy for this second win.
It was a close match, Welsh players struggled till the last second, but I think that Italy didn't win because of the ref.
We have still a long way to go before we can reach the top,but we made the first steps alone, not because we've been helped to.
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Italians have a saying; there is no 2 without a 3. Look out Ireland. You welsh chaps, please be big enough to admit defeat and to stop crying over the refereeing, excuses are for poor losers.FORZA AZZURRI.... 4 EVER...
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I am an italian supporter and I fully agree that the referee made a very controversial decision! But I also wish to point out that this is the first time that a controversial decision has gone Italys way. The refereeing in the England vs. Italy game was absolutely appalling and completely one sided! England were awarded many dodgy penalties and even a try that came through a forward pass! Compared to the inequities that Italy has had to bare in the past White's last play decision is nothing.
Nonetheless, what a great Game!
Forza Azzurri!
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What were Wales doing 3 points behind with 10 secs to go anyway? every time a ref. and his linesmen apply the rules of rugby, they are lambasted by know-nothings in the press. The Welsh legend Jon Davies was a wonderful player, but like a lot of wonderful players played to the whistle, not the laws. Chris White has been around long enough for players and coaches to know how he reads the game. The far more street-wise Welsh should never have allowed the Italians to get so close.
By the way, has anyone else noticed how the Irish struggle when a ref. applies the rules of ruck and maul?
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#48 Triona
I would like to point out that if bad management and sleeze is the result of Berbizier efforts may be
you hold a grudge against the Latins (France and Italy)...hopefully I am wrong.
Italy has had heaps of possession although at times very scapy. Wales has great players and will do well in France this summer.
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well done italy, throughly deserved the win but where has the play Wales played against Ireland gone? Wales should have taken the points when they had the chance, Wales are looking at a wooden spoon now. Italy i don't think you are going to win against Ireland but you should be able to make a good game with a few Italien tries going in
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Thank you Azzurri, what a wonderful match! Italy played well and deserved to win!
Why are some of you (Ian showed that also Welshmen can admit the defeat...) talking about cheating, the refereeing and so on...?
You should be honest and admit you made the wrong decision in kicking for touch!
Grande Italia! Let's go Azzurri!
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I didn麓t see all the game but I get the gist that the ref said there was time for the throw and then changed his mind. If that is so surely he is accountable for that.
That said, at best Wales would have drawn ( I think).
Anyone know the odds on italy beating Ireland? No 2 without a 3.
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Great! As rugby is so popular in this part of Italy (North east) from years I'm so glad to see how is becoming so popular also in the rest of the country. Today we had a good match but, without doubts, the referee was wrong on stopping the game as he did. I think Wales had the right to have one last chance as the referee was not clear on his communication with the player.
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Having calmed down somewhat (though I still think the end was farcical), I do take the points of our Italian posters and agree that the Azzuri have suffered more than most from dodgy decisions in recent years and I welcome their true arrival to being competitive in the tournament.
But having watched the end of the Scotland-Ireland match, I feel that Scotland have rather more reason to feel aggrieved than Wales - wasn't a penalty awarded to Scotland at the end then the final whistle immediately blown to end the match? If the rules permit a penalty to be awarded but then not allow time for it to be taken, Isn't that a cheat's charter (not Easterbunny, surely)?
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A not so great game (but emotional) and really too close to call. Wales showed their pace in the beginning of the 2nd half and put damage to Italy, but Azzurri were able to possess, react and take the lead again.
As an Italian, I think a draw should have been a fair result. My admiration to the man who decided the touche instead of kicking: great spirit, great honour and passion of game.
Final note: Mauro Bergamasco did not punch, the fatal contact involved two Wales players.
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Whatever the exact conversation that took place between Hook and Chris White - and I don't pretend that just because I listened to the TV I heard everything that was said - it seems apparent that the referee was instructed by someone off the field to end the game. This may make little sense to spectators and may be a fundamental flaw in the system, but pointing the finger solely at the referee seems a little harsh, and smacks of sour grapes. At the very best Wales were denied a chance to tie the game or a chance to win - in both cases only that; a chance. Given what I'd witnessed in the previous 80 minutes I would have happily backed Italy to stop Wales crossing their line. Regarding the early tackle on Morgan, certainly it happened and should have been picked up by somebody, by Morgan was not in a try scoring position when it happened.
Overall, Italy had more territory and possession and were good for their victory and, in wide context about what it means for them as a team and what it means for rugby in Italy, particularly in light of the state that soccer in Italy is in, I think it's a fantastic result.
For Wales, Hook seems a real talent, but from Grand Slam winners to potential wooden spoonists in 2 years must sting a bit.
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This is such a wonderful time for Italian rugby and whether Wales were going to do anything at all in the last 10 secs is really irrelevant. The Azzurri have a lot of non-italian fans because we all want to see more rugby matches which are balanced, nail-biting, technically sound and an example of a sport for young people to take up. An interesrting sideshow is Berbizier, who has clearly got it so right with the team at his disposal - there are some very young inexperienced players in there too, it's not all Castro and Bergamauro, and what are the odds of him taking over from Laporte after the RWC?
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Congratulations to comment 35, completely wrong! I'm happy for Italy, it's about time they showed everyone what some of us have known they can do for a while now. I don't know if Bergamasco was responsible or not for the injury (it sounds not) but he still fisted Jones - he could have had an open hand but he clenched it in the movement.
I don't get the Mitre ball, it seems fatter, the Gilbert seems to play better.
I like 成人快手's commentating for the most part - I think that some of the criticism of Moore, Davies et al I see on these pages each six nations week is harsh and they do a fine job. My only complaint is that the analyst does tend to support the British/Irish team rather than the French or Italian. I don't mind it in football commentary (Lawro does an even job anyway) but when four of the six are home teams, I'd like some more effort for impartial analysis.
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Yes, it was a bad call - if Chris White had suggested there was time, he should have allowed the line out to take place - regardless of the what his earpiece was telling him. As referee he makes the final decision. I don't think anyone can dispute this notion.
However, i think the bigger problem is that it has given the Welsh team and Welsh media an 'excuse' to focus on rather than the team performance. (something that is common with the English team / media also)
I recently watched the '97 Lions Tour dvd, and in one part Jim Telfer is speaking to the forwards. And it's a speech that has had an effect on me...(not 100% correct word for word, but something like this:)
" Boys - there are 2 types of players out there. There's the honest one's...and there's the rest. The honest player gets up in the morning, he looks himself in the mirror, sets his standard and says 'i'm gonna get better, i'm gonna get better, i'm gonna get better'. He doesn't complain about the accomodation, he doesn't complain about the referee, he doesn't complain about the conditions. These are peripheral things. These are things that the dishonest players focus' on. If you don't perform - it has nothing to do with anyone else."
Today Wales didn't perform - and to try to mask this by focusing on the referee's calls, and complaining about the linesmen...its simply dishonest.
Yes - regarding the end call, Wales got a raw deal....but - 'lets be honest' - there are far far bigger problems for Welsh rugby than not getting the right call in the last 10 seconds of a game.
(Further, there's asbolutely nothing to suggest that if Wales had taken the line out that it would have resulted in any points in any case.)
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roy allen comment 49 says that going for the try at the end was unprofessional please expalin that comment as frankly it sounds like rubbish to me
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When will you Welsh stop blaming everyone on the pitch, the referee, the linesmen, the commentators, everyone except your own players, for not playing well enough to beat a good Italian side. Like Italy have done, you need to grow up.
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Chris White's performance as a referee was shocking and so was the performance of the touch judges but if the Wales performance was up to par then this would not have mattered .
What happened to the 15 man attacking rugby where the ball was passed seamlesslessly between backs and forwards in 2005 ?
Why are the players content to let the opposition have the possession and sit back and hope for a few counters will win the match ?
For next week if we are going to have a chance of avoiding the spoon some bold selection decisions have to made and it's going to have to be the backs to the wall go for it approach !
Stephen Jones is not captain material and Gareth Jenkins is not the right man for the job and should go as he is out of touch with reality .I think he spent too much time with Woodward on the Lions tour.
I think David Hasselhoff would do a better job as Wales National Coach - let's go and get The Hoff he'ss transform us into world cup winners.
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comment 52 DC - strange how you could not see the infringements without seeing the replay- yet you heard precisely theconversation between the useless ref and the welsh players - get real please!
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What dreadful refereeing! Fair play that Italy are usually the ones to suffer bad ref decisions and today they rebalanced their books, but how on earth did they miss Troncon's stamp on Rees, the tackle on Shayne W without the ball, Bergamasco's punch, not to mention the shocking mess at the end of the match... Italy played well and Wales poorly, but the last two matches were lost fairly and squarely - this one was not. )
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I am surprised by all thenegative comments that Jonathan davies is getting as I regard him as the best rugby analyst commenting on the 6 nations - he was also a great player and continues to show a lot of rugby vision - an important asset for a flyhalf and commentator
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Comment 65 Ben wrote that wales did not defend. Ben next time you watch a game of rugby please open your eyes and sit with someone who can explain to you the basics of the game.
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What has gone wrong with Welsh rugby?.I am dismayed with their reaction to losing.They blamed everyone after losing to Ireland and it was disturbing to see their abuse of the referee after the loss in Rome. It was like something from the football world. Im sure the Welsh Management, and all the great Welsh players of the past are squirming with embarassment.
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At half time, 40 minutes was shown in red on screen, the ball was dead. In fact the ball was in touch, the ref can clearly be heard saying that time is up but the line out has been awarded. The line out was taken and half time was blown when the ball next went dead. The word "consistency" springs to mind. Never mind, the result will not change. If we beat England next week all will be forgiven.
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If wales had been aloud to have the line out would they scored I doubt it apart from the first five minutes the second half was all Italy they deserved their win against a very poor wales who lost not because of the ref but because their pack was out musculed and out worked.
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1. I am Welsh
2. Italy deserved the win - why we should rely on an appalling set of officials is beyond me.
3. Stephen Jones will not be dropped - he is captain for the World Cup and we have to make the best of a bad job.
4. How much possession and territory did we have - not as much as Italy.
5. It would be churlish to blame officials for our inadequacies and failure to win - Italy were 'up for it' and Wales were not.
6. Bring on England - the season could end on a high after all !
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Sorry.
It was a Welsh suicide choice at ten second from the end.
It was an honest and deserved Italian victory.
A simple fact.
We are seeing a newcomer growing up little by little and begin to win.
History learns that it's ever hard to accept that, by a long traditions establishment...
But this is life, gentlemen.
Love this sport, because it is really the best one, not push down it with boring complaints.
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God I am so frustrated again, just like in the Irish match.
The Welsh failed to secure much possession and then compounded the problem by kicking badly a lot of the little posssesion they managed to secure and in turn put themsleves back under pressure.
Also on a number of occasions we were one pass away from finishing off some lovely back moves, which would have resulted in tries and a comfortable victory. The ref and his cronies were appalling, which just heightens the frustration.
We must keep faith though and look to deliver in Cardiff next week against England
This welsh side is good and capable of winning games but we keep misfiring and need a good dose of luck to break our duck. C`mon Wales
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The ref was really bad on more than one occasion .When he said that there was ten seconds left and the Welsh kicked into touch he indicated a lineout then some other creep whispered in his ear that there was no time left but I"m afraid he got it all wrong , he should have allowed the Welsh to play .I was watching the match on French television and the blokes that were commenting the match were appalled at the refs desicion .As for the Japenese linesman he should go back to making Sushi
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Focusing on the poor referring decision at the end of the game is to overlook the facts of the game; check the match stats. Italy deserved their win; Wales need to take a long hard look at themselves.
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Watched the game - read the blog. Some interesting comments throughout. Being a Welshman I am bound to agree with most of the commentary about the appalling refereeing. I always had a lot of respect for Chris White until tonight but that is unforgiveable. I agree entirely with everyone who has pointed out that if Wales were playing as they SHOULD be playing then it really should not have come down to the last 10 seconds. Nevertheless it was brave - not "unprofessional" as someone on here bizarely suggested to go for the outright win rather than a draw. God knows we needed to win today but we were then robbed by the ref. And not for this first time in the game either. Note Dwayne Peels reaction on the line when he awarded a scrum after we had turned the ball over. Note the early tackle.
As for Bergamasco (apologies for spelling) he scored a try and he shouldn't even have been on the pitch. Regardless of when Jones' injury was caused - watch the replay again people. It is clear. Jones goes in and falls to ground. Mr B is stood upright and in the slow-mo you can clearly see him clench his fist before he even starts to move down. Cynical.
There have been some outstanding individual performances from Wales this 6N - but that does not make a team. America's Ryder cup squad can testify to that. And love him or hate him - Jonathan Davies is right when he says you can't win without the ball.
Wales were badly treated by the officials today there is no doubt. But all cynical play aside Italy deserved at least a draw. The best thing about the Welsh team at the moment is defence. They've had enough practice!!
Serious thinking to do in the WRU tonight and I hope that they can look beyond the bad reffing and try and get to the source of the problem.
And its such a pity to - Wales is such a passionate rugby nation.
Final note to the commentator who pointed out that going from Gland Slam winners in 05 to wooden spoon must "sting a bit." If you happen to be English sir - you'll know exactly how it feels come the end of the World Cup ;-)
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To Roy Allen above who said that commentators should avoid all this "jingoistic nonsense", you seem to be judging our relatively benign commentary against different standards from those in other countries. Have you ever heard an Italian, Spanish of Argentinian commentator celebrating a goal for their respective countries in soccer? Or perhaps this will jog your memory....."Winston Churchill, Henry Cooper.....and so on....your boys took a hell of a beating tonight"
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Well done Gavin (post 61), your absolutey bang on - end of story.
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I didn't even watch the game. I was rushing around buying bits for my son who jets off to India tonight to play cricket !! BUT - I get really fed up when players/coaches/fans blame 1 incident for the result. The game lasts 80mins and if in minute 79 you are 15 points ahead then you will not lose !! 80minutes / league tables DO NOT LIE. It happens all the time. Paul Jewell manager of Wigan football claimed that 1 bad decision near the end could have cost the club 20 million quid. What absolute utter garbage. Oh and by the way I support Plymouth (round and oval)so tommorrow is our day of destiny. 成人快手 TV live - see you all!!
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I dont see what all the fuss is about, a bad call by the referee in the end did not effect any of the rugby played before that point.
Wales were out played by an Italy side with alot of heart and passion. It is their's and only their fault they ended up in that contoversy in the final seconds.
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Excellent comments from Fergal (*108)well done. Someone mentioned the Troncon stamping incident - please please please check out the position of the referee when Troncon commits the foul. White is literally standing over him looking down - yet he does not penalise him. What does that mean? stamping is fine? White is a cheat? please someone enlighten me?
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Some bloggers have claimed that Bergamasco did not commit a foul when he clashed with Stephen Jones - that of course is so far from the truth taht I can only assume they make these commentws to wind us frustrated welsh fans up.
Actually, Bergamasco`s face after the incident told us all how guilty he was of committing a foul!! He was literally squirming under the eye of the camera.
By the way can the citing committee cite referees!!!!
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With The Hoff as Head Coach and Jim Scarlett installed as Forwards Coach and Mark Ring as Backs coach Wales would be transformed into candidates to win the World Cup !
Nothing wrong with Jonathon Davies's commentary by the way.
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All these comments and chat about the officials! Yes they did make mistakes and yes, we didn't play enough rugby to win the game (and as a Welshman, that hurts to say). What I can't understand is why, with at least two thirds of the team who won the Grand Slam in 2005 still playing, we can't win! The reason - confidence! We don't have it; and that responsibility lies firmly at the door of our Coach - that's his job. It annoys me, beyond belief, to hear Gareth Jenkins say that his players are their own worst enemy. Their worst enemy is you Gareth! It takes more than just talk to help make a winning team. Stop making innane comments to the media, and starting coaching and prove your critics are wrong!!
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Irrespective of the result, and I think the Italians possibly deserved their victory in the end, I can't recall an international match punctuated with such inept refereeing than that exhibited by White today. His linesman and 4th official contributed as well to an officiating performance that was farcical.
I cannot ever recall watching a match commentary when the 4th official, unprompted by the match referee, is clearly heard on the ref mic, to call that time is up, after White has already and clearly affirmed to Hook that there was time for the line-out. Who is the sole arbitrator here ?
Absolute disgrace, and the IRB Referees panel should investigate the performance of all its match officials in this fiasco.
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There is every possibility that Llanelli will win the Heineken Cup,Cardiff win the Magners League,Neath-Swansea win the EDF cup and Newport win the Parker pen cup.And Gareth Jenkins wins the wooden spoon? Say what you like about Wales so far but don't tell me we don't have quality players.Jenkins has so far ignored the most inform forward in Wales,Charvis.No country bar the All blacks win games with 40% possession.Mike Ruddock must come back.No game is easy but Scotland and Italy are mickey mouse rugby nations and 'we' should be competing with Ireland and France not Canada and the pacific Islands.What a shambles Jenkins has turned us into.
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I did not like the call in the last second.
Was a very brave and decent decision to play for victory from the welsh player,and was frustrated by a weird stupid call.
Considering the game ,very happy to see Italy coming back and winning,very good personality.
We are not yet on the same league of the other 5 teams,but winning slowly more and more respect.
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Italy did deserve the win, but the match officials should be held to account for a low standard of officiating.
As for the Welsh team, there is something not quite right in the camp. How can the side lose so much confidence so quickly? Throughout the game it was mentioned that Gareth Jenkins had said that Italy were formidable but limited, but the way Wales are playing we are just limited! The formidable part of Italy is the pack, which has proven to be one of the best in Europe. Any rugby team cannot suceed without a good pack! The welsh pack needs to play as a unit, the skill is all there, but they dont seem to play like they believe. Maybe a new fowards coach is needed as Robin Mcbride does not seem to be getting it right. Lets get a forwards coach that has some steel (especially on discipline) and knows how to win!
Decision making wasnt the best, and i think that Jenkins should have kept Hook at flyhalf. As for the captaincy, i persoanally think Martyn Williams is our man, he seems to be the only person on the pitch that uses their top two inches consistently.
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eugene (post 114), stamping seems to have become acceptable again. Several times the Scots were on the receiving end of a shoe-ing in the match against Ireland, again directly in front of the ref. It is supposed to be a foul, but doesn't seem to be penalised all that often. To avoid being accused of bias, the Scots were guilty of putting a few late hits in on O'Gara - none of these were penalised either.
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i find it amusing just how people can say that it was the one decision at the end of the wales game that changed things. was it only the welsh fans that saw the fact that if bergamasco got the red card he so deserved for the punch on stephen jones, then he would not have scored the try or tackled kevin morgan without the ball when he would have scored. this coupled with troncons reckless use of the boot show that if these incidents were picked up by incompetent officials then wales would have won the match. the mistakes made by the referee that were heard by millions of people on tv were unforgivable and nothing can be done. typical bad luck for the welsh at the moment i feel especially after the poor officiating that ruined the first game with ireland. all posts that say italy deserved it due to the passion obviously do not understand what the term passion means. go to cardiff on game day to see that. wales should have won that game and would have with a good standard of refereeing, chris white should be ashamed as he gets paid so much to do something many people would love to do, to not even admit mistake is heartless
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Irrespective of the result, and I think the Italians possibly deserved their victory in the end, I can't recall an international match punctuated with such inept refereeing than that exhibited by White today. His linesman and 4th official contributed as well to an officiating performance that was farcical.
I cannot ever recall watching a match commentary when the 4th official, unprompted by the match referee, is clearly heard on the ref mic, to call that time is up, after White has already and clearly affirmed to Hook that there was time for the line-out. Who is the sole arbitrator here ?
Absolute disgrace, and the IRB Referees panel should investigate the performance of all its match officials in this fiasco.
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In an effort to curb malicious comment posting by abusive users, I've enabled a feature that requires a weblog commenter to wait a short amount of time before being able to post again. Please try to post your comment again in a short while. Thanks for your patience.
It's a fine idea - try actually posting people's views then if they've taken the time & trouble to express them !
Thanks
Andrew
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I did not like the call in the last second.
Was a very brave and decent decision to play for victory from the welsh player,and was frustrated by a weird stupid call.
Considering the game ,very happy to see Italy coming back and winning,very good personality.
We are not yet on the same league of the other 5 teams,but gaining slowly more and more respect.
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Just to comment on the game itself - though I did not see it I have watched the highlights and from listening to people who watched the game I think there is a lot to be said. First of all lets start with my position - I'm English so am neutral couldnt care less who won but without a doubt it needs to be said Wales did not lose because of false info given by the ref. Whilst that may have been the actual cause and indeed the ref should have been clear in saying whether or not there was time for the play. Wales should have won that game but didnt from what I did see of that game they screwed up two tries in the first 15 mins - one was when a pass went forward not back and the second was a pass that was made to someone who was a good 3 metres forward of the pass. That was the reason they lost because they failed to play to the standard that they are capable of. Italy won because they capitalised on their chances and didnt mess them up - Wales did. That is as simple as it gets Wales deserved to lose that game and Italy deserved to win it.
However having said all that the very reason that game ended in a victory for the Italians was because hook decided to go for the try after being told by the ref that there was time however as they were lining up for the lineout he called time on the game. So Italy won by a 3 point margin because of bad refereeing but mainly because of good play on their part and capitalising on chances that they were given. Wales have not been in the Six Nations at all this year (although they have had good spells) and dont be surprised if the Millenium Stadium is brought down to crys of God Save Our Queen and Swing Low Sweet Chariot. Every year for me the one game I cannot miss is the England v Wales match and every year since 2004 I have dreaded it knowing that Wales have come far enough to win and yet they have done so just once in those three occasions - yes that was at Cardiff the same venue as Saturdays game but that was the beginning of a good tournament for Wales and a year when they were looking very strong
Welsh Fans I really feel for you cos I have been in a similar position to the one you are in now RWC 03 remember that? Of course you do no-one can forget it but then look at RBS 6 Nations 04 England are third in the table! The World Champions beaten by Ireland and France! 05 we were fourth having lost to Wales, France and Ireland, 06 back up one notch to third after a whitewash [for wales] at twickers, 07 looks likely to be 2nd but who knows? England quite rightly have faced heavy Criticism for their performance since RWC 2003 and so Wales prepare yourselves cos even with a win in Cardiff next week you are still looking at a bottom of the table tournament. Critics will be up in arms and fans will moan but you need to focus and prepare for the World Cup cos if you dont then I honestly dont think you will get as far as the second round. Just some advice from someone commonly referred to as "scum" or "saes" or from over the "bridge" Dan
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I have to admit watching England fall from grace was one of the sweetest moments of my life, doesn't half feel rubbish when it happens to you though! Confidence? Management? The worst referee ever? All maybe excuses but the matter-of-fact is that all these little factors add up. All 6 teams are very close, Wales have proved this by loosing by very small margins every game :-(. With Scotland, France and Italy away and England and Ireland at home this season always has the potential to be successful if things go our way (05) or awful (03,07).
I personally think that we should give GJ and the aptly named 'captain crap' (Steven Jones) the chance until the world cup at least. You never know we might get a controversial late decision in Cardiff in a weeks time and talk of the new age of welsh rugby, just like the seventies etc. etc. will be in the air. How quickly things change in international rugby!
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There is no doubt that Wales have the Grand Slam of Whinging wrapped up.
Let's just all agree that Wales are by far the best rugby team in the world, and that if it wasn't for terrible referees/dirty opponents/the press/unfair tactics (delete as appropriate) they would win every game and everyone else might as well give up.
Then maybe they'll shut up.
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To Roy Allen on 129.
No such luck, they would never shut up-they are bad losers and even worse winners!
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Small point. I wonder how many complaints about the ref and touch judges there would be if Wales had one by one point?
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To Roy Allen on 129.
No such luck, they would never shut up-they are bad losers and even worse winners!
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After every round of games, the anti irish come out. lucky, no edge, poor front row, no chance in world cup, etc, etc. Over the past few years Ireland have been consistently excellent. OK, they were not great against Scotland, but they did grind out a win. What about England in Croke Park, the Irish were awesome. On their day, or off it, there is not a home nation who can match Ireland. Proven by the recent triple crown wins. They are also the only home nation team to compete with the southern hemisphere teams in recent years. For those who say O Driscoll is overrated, YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT RUGBY. Even the All Blacks recognise he is the best centre in the world. UNDISPUTED. Give Ireland their credit, dont begrudge it..
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Of course, no Welsh player has EVER committed a bit of foul play and got away with it, right?
Psht.
Grow up boys and girls. Rugby is a physical game and cheap shots are dealt out by everyone. If you get away with it then you carry on, if you get pinged you stop. Singling out Bergamasco Senior as the cause of Wales' loss is just plain stupid, especially when you have a known thug like Horsman in your team.
So just quit it, OK?
Now I do sympathise with Wales on the line out call. If Chris White had said there was enough time then it should have been taken and he should be reviewed by the Referees' Panel accordingly. However, it's worth pointing out that there was no guarantee that Wales would have scored from the line out given that previous set pieces hadn't looked too clever in parts.
Ultimately Wales lost because they're a poor side with poor organisation. Given the depth of Welsh talent at the moment it's quite inexplicable why this should be so, it's just unfortunate that it is.
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When you can clearly hear the ref on the commentary shout 'ten seconds to go' 3 times in a row before Hook kicked for touch, no rugby playing person in the world can argue that there 10 seconds is long enough to form and play a linout. The ref clearly did not say that there was time or there was not time for a lineout, he just told them how long was left. Good ref'ing all round and Wales beaten by the better team who created more and deserved the win.
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Having read most of the comments, watched the game, and despaired at the appalling refereeing, although favouring neither side, I notice the Welsh contingent also managed to miss the assist the referee gave prior to the first Welsh try, it was not knocked on by an Italian player, but knocked back by a Welsh hand, but no complaining there I note!!
Still laughing at the ending, They onlty asked if they had time for one more play, and they had, but if you have to blame the loss of your team on the last ten seconds of a match, where you may or may not have gone on to score a try, it is a pretty poor show.
Italy deserved victory, Wales need to re group, and hopefully between us we can provide a half decent spectacle next weekend.
From a not very optimistic England fan!
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Don't blame the Welsh team, they were trying their best, it will happen to every international match. I am sure IRB referees will sort it out. I don't blame Chris White, it was his earpiece telling him. I was shouting to James Hook to take points at my home TV. Oh I wish I was in the Rome stadium. Come on Wales for next weekend, don't take advice from referee if its doubt.
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As a Welshman i know all about dissapointment in rugby. Im not old enough to remember Wales' glory years so most of my dissapointment has not been down to having a good team getting the odd poor result, rather it has been due to us loving the game and always desperately willing our team to give it their all.
However the quality of players we have in the squad these days, i think we have a good case to argue that Wales should be up there as one of the top European teams.
I think this is an especially hard pill to swallow watching this years six nations where the overall quality has been pretty poor, and a rather strange hyping up/slating of different teams prior to the start of the competition. We have France who no pundit rated due to poor autumn results. (omit the fact that they were playing the likes of NZ and Argentina). And now quietly moving towards Grand Slam.
Scotland, who the likes of Gavin Hastings was pinning the title of 'world beaters' on, due to '3 wins on the bounce' in the autumn, im slightly paraphrasing the quote but the essential point is there, 2 of them were against international no-marks of Romania and Canada, and the 3rd they were demolished by a poor Australian team, he still constitutes that as a win it would seem.
England who, once after fans, teams and line judges alike got over the hype of wilko, fallon and jason r got pasted.
Ireland who after great results in the autumn have under performed in the main and talked up the idea of being Grand Slam winners far too much when you consider their 'interesting' interpretation of the rules of rugby.
Italy have been the team to remember this year, while still a ways to go they have proved why they should be in the competition.
So where does that leave Wales? Looking at the other teams im at a loss to understand. We dont have much in the way of injuries and every match we have played we have always been in with a chance of winning, i.e. there have been no white washes that we usually associate with wales having a bad team.
I am now of the opinion that there is something going on in the background that we do not know about. And hailing Jones as 'Captain Crap' is not only a bizarre way to make light of a bad situation, and blatently publicised becuase they were convinced they would batter Italy, but will also now come back to bite them.
I for one have had just about enough of our crooked RU who drove out our GS winner. And Jenkins who said he would never take the job with the current RU, seeming changed his mind, now working with them cant buy a win. So heres an idea (by an obviously fed-up Welshman), sack the RU, sack Jenks, Bring in an RU that puts the team first rather than the 'business' and reverse the monumentally retarded mistake of alienating a GS winning coach by putting Ruddock back in the Job!
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it's fantastic to see that after being on the bottom for years italy within i believe four years may even win the triple crown or dare i say the GRAND SLAM i think it certanly was good that italy was allowed into the 6 nations , at first i thought they would just go down but look at them now!!!! where did they come from? look foward to seeing the result against ireland next time.
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I would disagree with Mark (#25) about Argentina joining the Super 12 league: the travel involved would be too much as would the costs for teams in Argentina's recovering economy. An annual top level tournament is enough. But a South American "super league" (if one doesn't already exist) involving four to eight Argentinian teams (6th ranked in the world) plus one or two each from Uruguay (20th), Chile (25th) and Paraguay (29th) would be feasible logistically (if not as highly competitive at the Super 12) and let them keep their players at home, doing good for the players of all four nations.
I wholeheartedly agree that Argentina belongs in either the Six Nations or Tri Nations. Those nine teams occupy nine of the top ten spots in the world rankings and Argentina the other, so they deserve to play with the best. Unlike Italy, however, Argentina would be competitive immediately and win at least one match in their first year, possibly winning a Four/Quad Nations tournament by the next Rugby World Cup, and a Seven Nations even sooner.
While a Four/Quad Nations tournament would be more difficult logistically than playing in a Seven Nations from Spain, I'm sure Argentina would prefer to play on home soil and against the three who dominate rugby, plus the problem of travel and times zones would be limited to a two month span, rather than a six month season.
You can't become the best in the world unless you play against the best in the world, and Argentina deserves it. If anyone doesn't agree, just look at the progression of nations in other sports (ice hockey, basketball, football, etc.) where lower-ranked nations joined annual competitions against the best; the USA has gone from #1 in basketball to a mid-level team.
And sorry for the lengthy post.
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Sad to hear comments like the ref robbed us - having watched the match it was clear that even if the line out was taken Italy could well have defended it.
Unlike England or Scotland but like France or ireland(i'm irish) Wales have players capable of turning any match so the wooden spoon is unthinkable and a huge underachievement.
Can't see it changing unless they stop blaming everyone else,put this behind them and support the coaches through to the world cup.
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Anyone who claims that Bergamasco clenched fist is proof of intent has clearly never played rugby!!!
When wanting to go under a body you have to go with a clenched fist otherwise you are likely to break your own fingers. Please look at his head, he is not even looking at jones when he impacts.
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If there is any winner from the Italy-Wales match it has to be the game of Rugby itself!
The atmosphere in the stadium clearly reached a new level; it definitely created the 'extra-man', helping spur every Italian drive and exposing the weakness of Welsh veneer: decision-making was, all-round, the victim of the additional intensity caused by the growth in fevour as Italian belief increased.
The result just goes to prove the sense in expanding the tournament, as jingoistic commissioning editors can finally justify their journo-junkets - now that's a cause for celebration!
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Wales were not undone by the referee but by their own arrogance: on what ground are they so sure they would have scored? Anybody in that situation and with so little time left would have gone for the posts - including the mighty ABs. That they did not - and did not do twice, as on Friday the U21s also lost for the very same reason - is just evidence of their misplaced sense of superiority. As for Mr White, may I suggest more restrained comments: coming from a land that has 'graced' the game with a lineage of one-eyed referees - from Derek Bevan all the way down to Nigel Owens (one exception: Nigel Whitehouse) - there is little our Welsh friends can teach the rest of the lot. Take care, and relax.
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Lol at comment 139 Italy winning the triple crown.... a competition between the four nations of the british isles!!!
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I live in Padova, Veneto, North-Eastern Italy.
My region always was the heart of Italian Rugby: still today, many very good players were born here, like our captain Bortolami, Bergamasco brothers or Troncon.
We always played and followed minor and major Rugby matches while in many parts of Italy it was difficult even to set up a local team.
But now, after years of growth following 6 Nations admittance, with this historic (for Italy) 6 Nations, whole Italy seems to be in a kind of "Rugby frenzy", and since two days the national television is giving priority to Italian Rugby team than to Football championship.
I hope in the next years we will continue to grow in Rugby, and that many Italians will follow and play it: not just for the sport itself, but also for the human values that Rugby may bring in Italian sport and society.
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Italy were the better team on the day and did deserve to win it, yet Wales could still have won the game. While Bergamasco's swinging arm was both dangerous and cynical he cannot be blamed for SJ requiring 4 stitches, that honour goes to Gough's left elbow which caught SJ at the ruck, prior to Bergamasco's rush of kak to the brain. Rome is the one venue I've yet to attend during 6N's and I'm sorry to say I can't attend next weekend either. I feel for Wales, but if they insist on playing "the Welsh way" without the ball they will get tonked. The welsh forwards are the problem, they are just not securing and keeping the ball for their team, if you don't have the ball you can't win the game....well unless you're the AB's whom do occasionaly loose when they don't have the ball too!
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Im a huge Italy fan and am delighted that Italy won against both Scotland and Wales. My main reason for such joy is the fact that now in Italy rugby will shoot up in rugby players, and the sencerity for the sport. The fact that the win against scotland made headlines on the football loved 'Gazzetta dello sport' newspaper, kickstarts a new era for italian rugby.
Concerning the wales match, Im going to be fair: It was the ref's mistake to say there was time and then end the game. After all if this happened to italy i would be infuriated as well. However, what i do not appreciate is calling the italians 'cheats' and 'lucky', cos the ref's decision has nothing to do with them. They played a brilliant game of rugby, in which fair to say the earned the match.
After many ups and downs, and close encounters, Italy have finally made a name for themselves and shown true potential.
So, Italy to win against Ireland! ;)
Forza ragazzi!
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I've just seen the IRB World Rankings. Oh what joy. Italy are above Wales. C'mon England (and The Briz).
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