Stoker from Croker
- 26 Jan 07, 03:34 PM
Belfast - The rugby posts are up at Croke Park 鈥 but nobody has seen them yet, except the players of course.
The general public are being kept in the dark until the gates of the Gaelic Athletic Association's 83,000 capacity emporium in the suburbs of north Dublin are opened for the visit of on 11 February.
It has been a bit of an emotional roller-coaster ride for the GAA and one can understand their nervousness after 123 years preserving and cultivating national pastimes with Croke Park the citadel. One may wonder today as to what constitutes a national past time in Ireland, but I won鈥檛 go into that!
But mostly it is Gaelic Football (not for the faint-hearted), hurling (the fastest ball game in the world they say), and Camogie (for the girls. So stay away from women with a stick, it can be painful).
Anyway, the ground, formally a much-used 14-acre site, was purchased for a mere 拢3,500 back in 1913 and renamed after the 鈥檚 first Patron Archbishop Croke of Cashel.
Spectators will also have to get used to the new seating arrangements. No West Stand to shelter from the prevailing wind or East Stand, where you need sun visors on a clear day.
Now it鈥檚 the Hogan, Cusack, and Nally Stands. Michael Hogan was a former star Tipperary footballer, Michael Cusack, one of the GAA鈥檚 founding members, and Nally, who it was believed was not even a member of the GAA, but he was not too keen on the English, and that was good enough.
Then we have Hill 16. That, for the time being at any rate, is uncovered standing room for about 15,000. The little spot that runs adjacent to the railway line was constructed from the rubble left in Sackville Street (now O'Connell Street) after the 1916 Easter rising.
So history runs steep in what the 成人快手鈥檚 hierarchy have termed, the 鈥樷檋idden jewel of sports stadiums鈥欌.
Will Carling thought the RFU were well healed with 鈥57 old farts鈥. But it was only after the 336 delegates voted at Congress, which represents a cast of millions, to dispense with Rule 42 which allowed "foreign" games to grace their greensward.
Well, I suppose greensward is a bit of a misnomer. The pitch, all 100 metres of it, is actually a complex mixture of soft synthetic material and tuft or two or real grass.
But it will be fine for rugby. The pitch has been well tested by the Irish squad this week, and from all accounts you don鈥檛 bounce that high when encountering an offensive tackle!
The GAA has conducted a fairly comprehensive study in the past, with soil samples, leaf samples, nutritional analysis and even climate analysis taken into consideration.
The inside track from the players is very encouraging about the pitch and they have also given the new floodlighting system the thumbs up.
The GAA, of course, see this momentous occasion as not only breaking down barriers, but as a bit of a pay day. They will get to boost their already considerable coffers by a couple of trillion.
So naturally they have pushed the boat out for the visit of the French and have thought of everything, even ordering in cages for the inevitable pitch invasion ... not from spectators you understand, but emigrant cockerels.
But if you think the visit of French will be a major event, wait on the English a few weeks later.
Wales 27-18 England
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I'm a welshman, but I've already been to Croke Park for the All Ireland Hurling Finals. I love welcoming the Irish to Cardiff but I'm still a bit gutted we have to wait until next season to visit Croke for the rugby.
It's a fantastic stadium, great views from every stand, awesome atmosphere, and as you said - the omission of a weather stopping West stand only adds to the game - and you thought the wind swirled about in Lansdowne Road - get ready for Croke!
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Jim - Do not shy away from the fact that Michael Hogan was the footballer shot dead by the Black and Tans when they opened fire within the ground on November 21 1920 during a Dublin Tipperary match. This is why the decision to allow English sports has been such a difficult and emotional one.
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Can't wait for these games this Spring. To say it will be a major sporting event is the understatement of the millenium. That the mighty Stadium, for so long a hidden, precious gem of sporting enthusiasm (and no small amount of political & historical influence on the Irish Nation), will now be paraded on an International stage is of such significance to the Irish throughout the world as a sign of our true eiri amach na casca.
What a day it will be? And what a day it will be to hear "God save the Queen" sung by the English national team & it's supporters, exactly as it is sung when they visit the stadium of any other foreign, independant, & free country.
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Peter, I am well aware of the history. I'm just sticking to rugby matters as I hope everyone else will. What the GAA has gone through to make the momentous decision to allow other sports to utilise Croke Park is well documented elsewhere.
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I agree with Peter's post on the naming of the Hogan stand. It's well known amongst the majority of Irish people& I doubt it will be forgotten& therefore shouldn't be glossed over.
Also to liken the GAA congress to Will Carling's description of the RFU is a little harsh. The GAA has to try& take on board the feelings of its members in such matters& for years a large number of people involved in our games were for Rule 42 staying. That said I am glad its gone, with the GAA firmly established& the other non-national sports enjoying varying degrees of success on the world stage I think all our stadiums should be shared. Having played Soccer, Rugby& Basketball on top of GAA, all sports played can certainly go hand in hand, while valuing& remembering that our Gaelic games were almost lost and have come a long way since 1884.
Sorry for the rant, good article, looking forward to the tournament& hopefully Irish Rugby's first year at Croker is a successful one!
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In fairness to Jim Stokes, it looks like he borrowed from the GAA's own webpage detailing the history of Croke Park, which itself doesn't mention the reason a stand was named after Michael Hogan, even though they explain the reason for the Croke and Cusack names.
See :
Equally shameful, the GAA don't explain on this webpage why the Nally stand was so named, after Pat Nally, a Mayo man lived in the latter half of the 19th century, and was a "leading figure of the Fenian movement" and "organised an anti-establishment sports meeting" because at the time "athletic meetings had been under the control of the Ascendancy and admittance was strictly regulated; labourers and people of low economic standing were not even allowed to attend while only those of a certain status in the community were eligible to take part." For more details, see :
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I've a question for ye lads on a slightly different but linked topic, while wembley has been redeveloped over the past 6 yrs or so the FA Cup went to Cardiff... why didn't they go to Twickers?? myself and my mater were talking about it last night and it never actually crossed my mind before. is there not such a good relationship between the FA and the RFU?? i know this has nothing got to do with croker but but the theme of using other peoples stadiums still stands!
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I don't think you can fit a soccer pitch onto the Twickenham turf without major extension work.
One of the things the rugby players will notice is the vast open spaces at Croke Park, a GAA pitch being about twice the area of a rugby pitch. It will be interesting to see how successful the early touch kicks are.
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Sorry, but you are wrong. The rugby posts won't be put until after next Saturday's National Football League clash between the Dubs and Tir Eoghan. I can't wait for the matches, especially against England, having been 100% against the opening of headquarters in the beginning. Now that it's going to happen though, I may aswel get behind an All-Ireland Rugby team and a soccer team in need of some serious results on the field. Here's to a great 2007 in Croker!
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Awesome evaluation of what is a hidden gem of a stadium in the world!
Lets hope the GAA can get a final stand to complete, boost the capacity numbers to 100,000 and have a truly awesome world class stadium :D
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Cannot believe that you failed to mention that Michael Hogan was a tip footballer who was shot dead on the field of play by british forces (the black and tans).
I believe that rugby and football should be played at Croke, but we should respect the GAA and understand their history and reluctance to host non irish sports.
Name me another non professional organisation in the world that could build a stadium like this - and fill it.
It fills me with great pride to go to any Cork match (my county) and see 15 men take on 15 men from another county in front of over 80,000 spectators and realise that not one player is paid to be on that pitch, and that each one of them is actually from their representative county.
Soccer and Rugby could learn a lot from the GAA......
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I think that Croke park being opened up to so called "foreign" sports is fantastic for all sporting people in Ireland. Coming from Northern Ireland I can appreciate the difficulty the GAA had in coming to this arrangement, but in saying that the GAA counties in Ulster seem to be ok about sharing the new national stadium proposed at the moment for the old maze prision site. Lets show the rest of the sporting world the facilities that Ireland has to offer regardless of who is playing and what they are playing.
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Looking forward to the games at Croke, the atmosphere should be great. Just wish I could be there! Just a minor point, I thought Croke had already hosted American Football and combined rules games, so had already hosted Foreign games and therefore, I thought it was widely interpreted as "English" games. Even including football, sorry to the Scots. Basically, this was just thinly masked English xenophobia by the GAA which still persists in Ireland. I am glad somebody on this site pointed out that it was British forces that were responsible for the killings and not English forces as most would have you to believe. (I thought the Black and Tans were largely from N. Ireland.) With half the British regiments being from Scotland and the N. Irish Protestants also from that part of the UK it would be doing them a diservice not to give them credit. Sorry, to distract from what was a very well read article.
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Seeing as a large proportion of the money that was required for the redevelopment of Croke Park was paid for by the tax payer (i.e. me, who doesn't give a toss about GAA!), I resent the fact that the IRFU have had to go cap in hand to the GAA to use the stadium.
Not withstanding the organisations historical sensitivities, the government should have made it a condition of the funding that the GAA open it's doors to other sports to benefit the country as a whole.
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first of all, as an irish fan of all rugby soccer, and especially gaa, i am delighted the gaa have temporarily opened the gates of croke park to foreign sports while lansdowne road is being redeveloped.
the irish rugby team have trained twice on the croke park pitch this week with rugby posts erected. they will be taken down as someone already pointed out, for the dublin v tyrone match(which mind I add is almost certain to be full house of 82300 for a national league game and first match under lights at croke park)
prestwick hopes the gaa could build a final stand to complete the stadium.
1.The hill 16 and nally end have been the last part of the stadium to be redeveloped.
2. a major commuter rail line runs underneath so it is not feasible to have stands like they are the rest of the way around the pitch .
3. you have never spoke to a dublin gaa fan.
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David, The rail lion behind Hill 16 is not an impediment to the development of a stand. There is a similar rail line, and a canal 'under' the Canal End with the supports for the stadium built out over them. The reality is that the GAA doesn't own the properties behind the Hill which it would have to acquire in order to build out and up. It did apparently enquire about doing so at some stage but they also checked the lie of the land with the planners in terms of what type of development they could create behind such a stand were they to buy those properties and build out - office and hotel being the obvious type of developement options. The planners - Dublin City Council - made it clear that they want to keep the residentiual profile of that area and the chase ended there. That was thyem but the problem now is that at current prices, and recognising that people would make it difficult knowing that the GAA 'has' to pay to get what it wants, it would now most likely cost the GAA 鈧60 - 80 m to buy out those properties so the risk in going there is probably to much for them right now. That said in partnership with the right developers...
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He may not have spoken to a dublin GAA fan. He's about to hear one speak though. Hill 16 is what makes Croke park beautiful. Anyone can build a concrete, symetrical, borefest structure like Twickenham. Croker is streets ahead though. Its a stadium in the true sence. As Con Houlihan said "a stadium without a terrace is like a living room without a fire." Croker is a bastion to sporting purity, and Hill 16 is its heart. In croker there is no corporate stronghold, fans come first, players are ameture and heroes are local. All it lacks is an international audience. It has that now. Bring on the french on Feb 11th.
p.s. What odds Ireland beat England 19-16
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The days of thinking of soccer and rugby as 'English sports' are long gone. These are truely international sports played by millions worldwide.
I commend the GAA for the momentus decision they took in allowing others sports to be played at Croke Park - a decision which reflects how attitudes are changing across the island of Ireland. The planned building of a stadium in Northern Ireland for rugby, gaelic sport and soccer is also a fantastic development. Sport is for everyone.
I'm less interested in how the English anthem will go down in Croke Park, and more focused on how great it will be to hear 'Ireland's Call' ring out. An inspirational song that captures the spirit of togetherness on our island and what it can achieve.
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Would you listen to yourselves, going off on tangents about the Blank and Tans, 1916, and how the stands came to acquire their names.
Your missing the point, this is about the new revived modern Celtic Ireland and how far we have come since those darks days.
Some of you sound like a stereotypical bunch of old bitter historians.
We as Irish know all that about Croke Park, but do we have to keep pereaching on about our suppressed past to the world!
NO WE DONT, lets get on with the present and the future. Its about sport now not politics, so lets focus on beatin the lard out of whoever is lined up against us in whatever game!
Think back of how proud we were as a nation to host the Special Olympics in CP, and not a mention of Cromwell or Bloody Sunday had to be made.
Be grateful that you can be a part of this occasion, unlike myself who lives on the other side of the world but would give anything to be there singing my heart out!
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it is excellent rugby can finally be played at croke park and am lookin 4ward to the atmosphere it will provide. one thing i dont understand tho is the size of the new stadium being built, why is it so small, i have heard it is only holdin around 50,000 or 55,000?why is this???ireland could easily sell 70,000 for each of their 6 nations games, thus why miss out on the extra revenue???
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In response to the claim made in Post 14, can anyone say what was the proportion paid by the taxpayer? I have read elsewhere that it was relatively small.
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Great article, but its impossible to steer clear of controversy with Croke Park and I reluctantly feel the need to get involved in it as there seems to be a few myths floating around about Croke Park's most famous non-sporting incident.
Bloody Sunday occured on Nov 21st 1921 when the Black and Tans broke into Croke Park and shot randomly into the crowd and killed 14 people including one of the players, Micheal Hogan, whom one of the stands in Croke Park is named after.
The Black and Tans were British recruits, for the Irish police. They came almost exclusively from the island of Britian and the vast majority were English. It is actually unimportant as to their exact origin as their actions at Croke Park were performed in the name of Britian and of the British Crown. So you can imagine that the playing of certain anthems etc in Croke Park will be highly emotive for many people.
So I would ask all people attending Croke Park for the rugby internationals, Irish, English and French to remember this and don't disrespect the memory of the people killed that day
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In reply to post 17 I believe the taxpayers contribution was 鈧110m out of a total 鈧265m.
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As an Irish man ( and huge rugby & GAA fan)living in the UK for nearly 10 yrs, I see little or no point in raising the reasons for the naming of stands or stadiums within the context of sport.
It was the GAA's choice to name their stands and stadium as they wished and to allow or disallow what was played on its 'hallowed' turf
All that matters now is that there are 2 Rugby matches to be played at croke park this season against the English and the French teams (History such as mentioned in the other posts means nothing in this context).
Rugby fans and the sport in general are the winners here because more of them than ever can now go and watch what are bound to be great games in a stadium that will show the all that the Irish can represent itself with world class rugby and great facilities.
Historical facts, names, Article 42 and small minded people who can't let go be damned!
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Oh well, all of the above answers accurately any questions on why the stadium remained closed to certain traditions for so long. I am all for remembering our history but not for letting it stop me grow and evolve. I am sure with a stadium packed to capacity, the teams both Rugby and Soccer can only do brilliantly.
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IN response to post 20, you BELIEVE or you know? How dare you throw around figures like that, and then just throw in BELIEVE, either you know or you don't.
And for your information the FAI have received just as much in recent times as the GAA and have managed to fritter it away.
Credit the GAA for what they have created and their generous gesture, don't be so bitter as to expect to have things handed to you at all times.
As a fear gael, I cannot wait for these games. Its a testament to the GAA that they can have these facilities at a time when the other sporting organisations don't have a stadium with a capacity in excess of 11,000 available.
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Apologies to poster 21, my comment of course was in reference to post 22
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I wonder if any of my fellow Irishmen, so keen to remind us of our history on this thread, might like to consider the fact that 'God save the Queen' is the national anthem for a fair proportion of Ireland fans who will be at Croke park when we play England - and with their blessing.There will be thousands of Northern Unionists happy to forget politics and support Ireland. Perhaps before you get on your high horse about this or that moment in history, you might want to acknowledge this fact and respect your own supporters before deciding whether you are able to show such 'largesse' to the 'English' anthem.
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Forgiven but not forgotten.
After having visited other rugby mad countries a common compliment about the Irish fans is the respect they give to the opposition during kicks and National Anthems. A quality that not many countries have.
While the English game will be an emotional one, it would be great to see the proud Irish respect 'God save the queen'. All beit with gritted teeth. They are another proud nation and deserve respect.
That being said! COME ON IRELAND AND KICK SOME ASS.
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Forgiven but not forgotten.
After having visited other rugby mad countries a common compliment about the Irish fans is the respect they give to the opposition during kicks and National Anthems. A quality that not many countries have.
While the English game will be an emotional one, it would be great to see the proud Irish respect 'God save the queen'. All beit with gritted teeth. They are another proud nation and deserve respect.
That being said! COME ON IRELAND AND KICK SOME ASS.
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Poster 26, calm down man. I said I believe because I am not an accountant and cannot personally verify the figures but that's the amounts that were quoted in the media at the time. I do KNOW that it was a little under half of the total funding, a very significant sum.
Your point re the FAI funding is meaningless. All I said is that if goverment are giving substantial amounts of tax payers money to sporting organisations then conditions should be applied to ensure that the resultant facilities are used for the benefit of the nation as a whole and not to exclude significant sections of the public
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Jim care to reconcile your statement in comment 4
Peter, I am well aware of the history. I'm just sticking to rugby matters as I hope everyone else will.
With some of the opinions voiced in your original statement
One may wonder today as to what constitutes a national past time in Ireland, but I won鈥檛 go into that!
and Nally, who it was believed was not even a member of the GAA, but he was not too keen on the English, and that was good enough.
They will get to boost their already considerable coffers by a couple of trillion.
And in my opinion giving a little biased history on the stand names, is without a doubt hack journalism at it鈥檚 cheapest.
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I, like John Beattie, I have noticed a certain nationalistic fervour during the build up to this seasons Six Nations and like John just wish that politics and history could be put to one side for the sake of the best team game played. Certain elements of the media do not help the situation and need to be more responsible. There is nothing like being at an international game, making, although only briefly new friends, soaking up a great atmosphere and going home, win or lose the better for the experience. It has all become far to serious and although I want to see fierce competion during the game, I just wish that the minute it is all over the result is forgotten and no malice is held over for future times.
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Speaking on behalf of my local GAA club, of which I am chairman, we are delighted and thrilled that Croke Park has opened its doors to both rugby and soccer. The phrase "Everyones a winner" has never been more apt. I reiterate Ross on poster 18 re looking forward to hearing "Irelands Call" being sung at Croker by both northerners and southerners, protestant and catholic.
If I could mention a small irony that I know not many people will have heard about. Our team, Amsterdam GAC,
(new site being launched end Feb) has been playing in the European Gaelic Football League this past 4 years. There were 21 tournaments last season spread over four Euro-regions, from Copenhagen in the north to Costa Del Sol in the south involving over 30 teams from Brest to Barcelona and Brussels to Budapest (see The irony is that there is not one gaelic football pitch on mainland Europe. We play a reduced 11 a side game on rugby pitches, regular football/hurling being 15 a side. Most clubs have our "home gounds" at local rugby clubs where we train and play.
If it was not for the rugby clubs we would struggle to find suitable venues and if it was not for brave decisions made by the GAA we would not be able to hold our heads up high. I'm sure Croker will be as welcoming to rugby as rugby has been to gaelic games here in Europe.
As I said, "Everyone's a winner".
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The fact that this "lively" debate is going on reflects the sensitivities on both sides to the history history and to modern Anglo-Irish relations.
Ultimately in "brave new Ireland" I think that once we get through the English game in Dublin and its baggage the debate will be consigned to history and we will move forward to the next challenge. Ultimately it is about mutual respect.
Croke park is a stadium steeped in history and tradition. In February 2007 it will be a location where over 80,000 like minded people will come together in a spirit of mutual respect to enjoy a sporting occasion. This will not take away from the tradition but add to it.
How we choose to respect God Save the Queen will reflect on us in the here and now and it is not an attempt to rewrite history. It should be a sign of self confidence that we can get past our own prejudice. We should not be bitter about the atrocities of the past.
I look forward to attending the match, sharing the experience with my friends from Ulster, England and beyond, and hopefully giving England good hiding.
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Steve, I think there are also plenty of Northern Unionists - i.e. those who insisted on Ireland's Call being pumped out as some kind of compromise - who have never forgotten politics.
Personally I wouldn't be bothered if both Amhr谩n na bFh铆ann and GSTQ were played (a la the South African model).
Neither would I be so condescending to those from the Republic regarding treating the English anthem with 'largesse' I have never heard it being treated with disrespect at any rugby game and would tell anyone doing so to shut up, I don't think I'd be the only one.
And btw, it's Englands' choice to play the British anthem, if you have an issue with that take the RFU to task on it.
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I am an English supporter with tickets for the game at Croke. At university I am studying Irish history as part of my degree and am therefore more than aware of the attrocities committed.
However, as a passionate Englishman i would want to sing my countries national anthem before any sporting event as support of my team. Whilst i understand the sensitivities envolved i don't understand why we shoud still be paying for others mistakes. I didn't shoot anybody, neither did anyone im related to or have ever met, this university is teeming with Irish people some of whom i would consider among my best friends so im not singing my national anthem with any other agenda than that of patriotism and support for my team. It seems that everyone else can show passion and pride but when the English do it people get upset about it and claim there stoking people up. We dont ban the germans from singing there national anthem when they come to wembley even though London was bombed are country was bombed close to submission, likewise we could all get upset with the french because the Normans enacted the pilliging of the North but you know how long do we keep having to go back, how long do we have to pay for other peoples mistakes? If the climate is wrong of course im not ging to sing the national anthem just to wind someone up or if it will inflame a situation but i think it will be a pretty sad day for rugby if we get poitical censorship for crimes committed in the past.Sorry about the rant just rugby supporters normally pride themselves on their inclusive nature, can't wait for the game, there's nothing comes close to a Dublin away day in my eyes.
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Well said Aiden Prior in Post 19. I'm from the North of Ireland myself and can understand the GAA's reluctance. However, Ireland is a changed nation and we can't keep hanging on to the barriers of the past. I think it's fantastic that a united Irish rugby team will compete together being cheered on by both catholics and protestants at Croke Park on an international stage. In the same way that it will be fantastic if (when?) the new National stadium in the North is built and shared by the Northern Ireland football team and the GAA. This shows that times have changed. And to hear Ireland's Call and The Marseillaise blaring through Croke Park will be a historic day- as it will be for some people when God Save The Queen and Amhr谩n na bhFiann are played side by side before England are beaten at Croker.
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This will be a great occassion. GAA is slowly but surely moving with the times and are starting to become an inclusive sporting body.
The beauty of sport is, no matter what race, colour or creed you are we all enjoy it.
It is a shame that people like to bring politics and race into sports such as the GAA has in the past.
The landscape is changing and the GAA in the Republic of Ireland are moving with the landscape, that can only be a good thing.
Unfortunatly the 6 county GAA representatives are still very much in the dark ages and still have a sectarian racist mindset. Hopefully one day they will catch up with the rest of this island. Although I fear that will take a while.
When the first so called 'foreign' sport is played at Croke, we will have all witnessed a glorious, prosperious day and will show that this island has moved on from the dark days of the 19th & 20th centurys.
Croke is a great stadium, 2nd to none. It is about time it was shown in all it's glory to the sporting world.
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poster 28 has a good point!
Its very unfair to associate actions carried out in the 1920's to current British policies... lets remember the past but keep it there in the past and respect our visitors like we would all others regardless of where they are from.
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As an Irishman I'm embarrassed at the attempts by some to hijack this thread and raise issues of the past.
Let's look forward to a great tournament with the English and French games in a great stadium that we can finally show off to the world.
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I have to agree with Aidan Prior. I think we are missing the point. A bunch of armchair historians with more facts than itelligence and more bile than heart.
I am Irish, a sports fan. I play and have played GAA, rugby and soccer to varying degrees throughout my life. I love my country and its hertiage. I am giddy with excitement at the thought of watching Ireland play rugby and soccer in Croke Park - such a fantastic stadium.
But it is just a stadium. What makes it great are the people that fill it with noise and their souls and the games that are played there.
I have been to a few stadia around the world, noted for their atmosphere; Anfield, Murrayfield, Thomond Park to name a few. None has come close to the atmosphere in Croke Park for any Championship match that I have been lucky enough to attend - it's hair at the back of your neck stuff as you are engulfed by a sea of euphoria and local colour and pride. Not only would the players die for their shirt, but most of the fans would too.
The history of the stadium is not relevant to this article. Nor is development potential of Hill 16.
Bring on the French. Bring on the English. Screw the rest of it.
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I have read all the comments on this thread and respect all opinions expressed. However, post number 29 sums up all my feelings on the matter. The way we recieve the english supporters and their anthem will reflect on our own maturity and self confidence.
The rivalry is obvious and understandable, but mutual respect is mandatory.
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THANK'S 2 ALL 4 THIS VERY INTERESTING DEBATE. I RECENTLY TOOK THE CROKE PARK STADIUM TOUR WORTH A GO THOUGH NOT AVAILABLE ON MATCH DAYS. NOW ACCORDING 2 THE TOUR GUIDE THE REASON THEY DIDINT CONTINUE AROUND THE HILL WAS NOT BCAUSE THEY DIDINT WANT BUT AS THE RAIL LINE AT THE CANAL END IS EITHER A SERVICE LINE OR MOSTLY UNUSED THE LINE AT THE HILL SIXTEEN END IS A LONG DISTANCE AND COMMUTER LINE WITH 10S OF THOUSANDS USING IT EVERY DAY SO IRISH RAIL SAID NO WAY WOULD THEY ALLOW CONSTRUCTION 2 TAKE PLACE .I AM SUER THAT THE G.A.A OWN MOST IF NOT ALL THE LAND AND HOUSES AT THAT END . I HAVE WONDERD HOW WILL LANSDOWN ROAD GET PERMISSION 2 BUILD OVER THE DART LINE I ASSUME THEY WILL HAVE A SIMALAR PROBLEM .I AM NOT GOING 2 COMMENT ON THE HISTORY OF CROKE PARK THIS IS SPORT WE ALL KNOW WHAT HAPPEND AND HAVE GREAT RESPECT 4 ALL THE HEROES BOLTH SPORTING AND POLITICAL NOTHING CAN CHANGE THAT I AM JUST DELIGHTED THAT THE WIDER SPORTING WORLD WILL HAVE A CHANCE 2 ENJOY OUR WONDERFUL STADIUM AND MAY THE BEST TEAM WIN HOPEFULLY US UP THE DUBS HURLING AND FOOTBALL
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As an Irish man I am shocked and a little ashamed that so many Irish people shy away and appear to be outraged by the stating of facts about the history of Croke Park.
I am confused, lets look to the future but not forget the past, and lets wallop the French and English in Croker!
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I think that the GAA's Croke Park, host of the ALL IRELANDS football and hurling finals is the perfect venue for the ALL IRELANDS rugby team. Remember that this Irish team is the whole islands team. Always has been. Fair play to the GAA. Good luck to our island's team.
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Like any Irishman i beleive that the history of croke park and the GAA is important and should not be forgoten but i did not expect to have it retold to me on a sport blog.
The important thing now is that both matches are a sucess espicaly during god save the queen which i beleive will be apporpratly observed. I think blog No 20 makes a good point about the size of the new Landsdowne Road. I know this site has certain planning constraints so is it the best place for two national sports that will attract over 82,000 paying fans on each occation over the next few years or will the same issue arise again in 20 years time. Remember it is only just over 20 years since the new triple crown was built and now it is about to be demolished.
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Has anyone noticed how the Republic if Ireland v Wales football match is scheduled for the same day as Ireland v England in the 6 Nations? The football is due to kick off at 3, and the rugby at 5.30? What is going on? Surely this is not possible?
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people should also not forget when deciding how to greet "god save the queen" that it was england who put the troubles to one side and still came to dublin to play us when wales and scotland both refused...
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Should be a great event for the French visit. It will be an extraordinary occasion for any follower of Irish sport embued with a sense of history. Then the English match.
After that, it will be just another great stadium with a great atmosphere.
To our French and English visitors, you will be made feel very, very welcome. And, with any luck, you'll both get thumped!
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Jim, I am a bit disappointed with your almost sarcastic attitude towards the GAA and what it stands for, saying that the Nally Stand was named after someone who disliked to English is insulting to the Gaa, in your privaleged position please keep your narrow mindedness to oneself. Oh, by the way, THe Nally Stand is no longer in Croke Park, it was removed a few years ago.
Everyone interested in sport should marvel at the way an amateur organisation like the GAA can construct such a wonderful arena for our games.
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Mike Maloney,
I don't believe I was being condescending to Southern fans. And I accept most will have no problem with the anthem. I was being critical of those in the earlier part of this thread who wished to justify in advance any disrespect shown to GSTQ by an exposition of the history of Croke Park. The irony that any such behaviour would be equally disrespectful to many Ireland fans from Northern Ireland present at the match does not detract from the disgust I accept such behaviour would create amongst the greater number of all Irish fans. And I do not believe it will happen. As for the 'Ireland's Call' attempt. I know of no-one amongst my friends who know all the words to, or indeed cherish, such a dirge.My solution? Either no anthems or flags at all, or GSTQ and UJ in the North, SS and tricolour in the south. It is the blatant lack of courtesy shown , when the IRFU decide no anthem is appropriate at Ravenhill when we play Italy, that brings politics into the game. If all the matches were played in Dublin I would have no problom with the previous IRFU line that it is to show respect to the home nation. Their recent decision therefore blows this reasonable and acceptable line out of the water. Do not underestimate the feeling of insult this decision has caused here. And the implication of intolerance of the North that it will imply, following so soon from the unfounded sectarian smears broadcast by punters on RTE following the Brennan incident. For us to live together on this island, and support a team that represents us all, requires a mutual tolerance and respect that the IRFU have managed to undermine.
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to poster number 47, both games are on the 24th, the england one in february and the wales one in march!
nice one
i am a passionate irishman, and myself and a friend (who posted comment 20) had a heated debate on msn last night about this.
Croke park is a beacon of all things irish to me, i dont want any foreign games there (including aussie rules or american football) but i do applaud the brave decision made by the GAA to allow other Irish teams play there whilst lansdowne road is being redeveloped.
our history defines who we become, but at some stage we must accept that the relations between england and ireland now are fairly good (i myself live in london) and that we must move forward, i wish england and france all the luck in this years six nations, because, with a partisan crowd of 82000 people screaming ireland on, they are going to need it.
btw, the english national anthem is not GSTQ, thats the british national anthem. so why doesnt england sing its own anthem?
John
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And my apologies for misspelling your name.
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Post #48 - Guto,
You appear to have mixed up your months.
The 6 Nations match is 24/02 whilst the UEFA qualifier is 24/03. Understandable error given the huge excitement about these matches at Croker.
Looking forward to some great sport.
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The IRFU has been widely praised (and occasionally criticised) for commissioning Ireland鈥檚 Call and using it as an alternative anthem when playing outside of the Republic. It is lauded as an example of the union鈥檚 sensitivity to those on this island who see themselves as British.
But the IRFU will squander much of this goodwill if it permits the English RFU to play GSTQ in Croke Park. It will indicate that its sensitivity to the concerns of unionists on the issue of anthems is not extended to the GAA and its members.
I won鈥檛 go into the litany of abuses the forces of the British state has inflicted on the GAA over the decades, but having GSTQ booming around the stadium will upset many GAA members. And it never makes sense to upset your landlord.
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The total cost for the reconstruction of Croke Park was 鈧260 million. Of this figure 鈧110 million was contributed by the government. However, only 鈧19 million was from taxpayers money, the remainder came from lottery money. Additionally, the 鈧19 million grant was provided to ensure the stadium was ready for the Special Olympics opening ceremony.
On the other hand, the redevelopment of Lansdowne Road is currently estimated to cost 鈧345 million. This project will receive 鈧191 million in government aid of which 鈧127 million will be from taxpayers money. It should be noted however that this is just an estimate and the total cost is likely to be much more with the extra funds coming from the taxpayer.
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Poster 31, Mr Blackburn, the funds do benefit a large proportion of the Country as it is. Just because Govt funding may be given to a hockey ground, does not mean that I believe I have a right to demand access to it. Please begone with your snobbish attitude to the GAA, your kind make me sick and are exactly the type that should be kept out of Croke Park.
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OK Steve, points taken.
The IRFU have a poor record when it comes to this issue, and have not helped matters by ducking out of it with the Ravenhill decision for the Italy friendly. I still think a 2 anthem solution would be more acceptable at all grounds. Agree thoroughly with your appraisal of that failed Eurovision ditty "Ireland's Call" as a dirge, there is a perception in the Republic that it was forced on our ears by the Ulster Branch, so I'm happy to hear that you and your friends up North hold it in equal contempt. Although Phil Coulter might disagree as his "anthem" is the only one to my knowledge that attracts payment in the form of royalties when played in a stadium.
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If Mike Moloney wants to see a real example of condescension to people from a part of Ireland, he should read Poster 56's nonsensical polemic. Does Poster 56 extend his 'sensitivity' to those of us who 'see ourselves' as being British by permitting GSTQ for Ireland's match at Ravenhill, where , geographically, it will be at home? Why does equality of treatment appear so absurd to you?
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As was mentioned in comment 49, we should remember that in 1973 at the height of the so called Troubles, John Pullin and his England team were willing to put aside threats to their personal safety to come to Dublin to fulfill the fixture against Ireland. To quote Edmund Van Esbeck (one of Irelands most respected rugby journalists)
"Unlike the Scots and Welsh, who refused to travel, England honoured their commitment in what was one of the most moving occasions in the history of the game. It was a triumph of sport over politics."
For that action alone every England should be warmly welcomed to Dublin, regardless of the Stadium and to sing whichever anthem they choose.
As an Irishman and a huge rugby fan I count the months to the satrt of the 6 Nations and it would sadden me to think that this occasion could be overshadowed by small minded backward looking politics
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Poster 59
Playing GSTQ (and Ireland's Call) at an Irish match at Ravenhill is the logical conclusion of the IRFU's policy and I wouldn't have a particular problem with it.
I didn't intend any offence by using the term "see themselves as British". I'm new to this and will take your counsel on better phraseology.
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Steve (Post No. 52)
I just did a search for the words of "Ireland's Call" on the internet and came across a little background information which might be of interest to you (Wikipedia):
"At matches played in the REPUBLIC, both Amhr谩n na bhFiann (as the anthem of the host nation) and Ireland's Call (as the anthem of the home team) are sung. ELSEWHERE, Ireland's Call is the only anthem used."
The Devil is usually in the detail!
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Will some on give Steve a fleg to dry his eye鈥檚 with, perhaps the butchers apron they fly over the gates at Ravenhill
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To Poster No. 52 - I'm a bit confused with your short hand. GSTQ and UJ I guessed are God Save The Queen and Union Jacks? But what on earth are you referring to with the SS and Tricolours? The Tricolour obviously our (I'm a Dubliner) National Flag, which despite the best efforts of some has managed not to be totally hi-jacked by militants and still represents to me the Green and the Orange of this land, and peace between the two communities, but to what is your SS referring?
Oh, and one other thing, the only people you can rightly refer to as 'Southern Fans' are those from Munster. I'm from Leinster myself, you know, where Croke Park is? It's on the East coast.
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Just a note for all those completely up themselves with the GAA having to endure GSTQ and those dreadful fellows the English. Of course you have a perfectly legitimate reason for banning them and their awful song 鈥 you can鈥檛 let a game of foreign sport get in the way of good fashioned tiresome bigotry and politics. After all it is all their fault 鈥 now just remind what is today鈥檚 problem we can blame on the English.
PS I will of course be lobbying Twickenham to stop Italy playing their national anthem 鈥揑 won鈥檛 go into the litany of abuses the forces of the Romans has inflicted on the RFU over the decades, but having the Italian National Anthem booming around the stadium will upset many RFU members.
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Ruair铆, I posted on another blog to remind any Irish rugby follower associating themselves with the "anyone-but-England" syndrome about 1973, so well done for reminding us here (and John Pullin, couldn't think of the name but recall his "..at least we show up" comment well. How can some of our countrymen be so churlish as to call for disrespect to the English anthem because of events that happened during the War of Independence and before? That is merely to stereo-type us all as a nation who are living in the past, when instead we should be showing off this magnificent stadium as a symbol of a modern, European nation mindful of it's past, confident of her future and not so petty minded as to get upset over an anthem!
And with that can I commend the enlightened people within the GAA who have taken the brave steps to make this possible...now on with the rugby!
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Congrats to all on a very honest and forthright debate on here. Maybe if everyone on the island could have argued the toss with a similar level of mutual understanding over the years we wouldnt have ended up in the mess we were for so long. Having said that I would like to add a couple of points
Firstly, can I just state as as GAA man that I am delighted that the rugby will go ahead in Croke Park this year. They will be great days and everyone will benefit from the experience. I would however like to say that the GAA should be applauded and not criticised for its development of Croke Park over the past 15 years or so. As they have done since the foundation of the State they got off their arses and made something happen for themselves instead of sitting around complaining and looking for handouts a la the FAI. In my opinion they have the right to do with their own staduium as they please, irregardless of the fact that some of the money received was taxpayers money, and are under no obligation to open it to anyone as has been suggested by some of the posters here. Most of the Dublin based rugby players probably attended private fee paying schools which are not open to the general public but which receive funding from the State. No issue is ever made of this.
Secondly, the GAA people have the right to remember their own history whatever that may be, including the fact that one of the stands is named after a person who was murdered by crown forces on the pitch in front of it. And before we jump to criticise our northern brethren for their more hardline stance on these matters we should remember that only last week the Northen police service were outed as having colluded with loyalist gangs to murder nationalists, including many who were members of the GAA. So, even more so in that part of the world, old wounds are still not quite healed.
Having said that, on this island of ours the past is certainly a different country and nobody wants to go back to the bad old days. I for one hope that all visitors to Drumcondra, be they French or English, receive a warm welcome and enjoy their day out on the Northside.
I just hope some of the other visitors from Ballsbridge/Donnybrook etc find their way across the Liffey to Croke Park!
PS will the pubs up around Summerhill and Ballybough suit the D4 types who will cross the river? The Limerick boys shouldnt have a problem though!!!
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Glad to see so many good and thought provoking comments. As an Englishman it often appears half of Ireland are still "stuck in the past". Why this continual regurgitation of history for what should be a celebration of rugby in a great stadium! All this venom stored for 80 years, before probably anybody on this board was born! Perhaps the British should ban the German teams from our stadia for bombing our cities ONLY 60 years ago!
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Ah yes, very sorry, that will explain why no fuss was made! How dim of me!! But yes Croke Park is certainly creating a lot of excitement, and as I am not attending the football in March I really hope I can make it in 2008 for the rugby! Assuming they are still hosting!!
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Poster 58, you are indeed a very confused individual. My argument was against a sporting organisation that specifically, as part of it's constitution sought to exclude other sports. I have no such problem with other organisations, hockey, rugby whatever, that make no such distinctions.
You have some cheek to call me snobbish given the GAA's attitude towards 'foreign' sports over the years.
As to the point made about Lottery funding, surely the same argument applies as for tax payers money, or do rugby and soccer folk not buy lottery tickets?
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Bin Ireland's Call, awful song. What about Song For Ireland?
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The key to the issue of sensitivities is not to have them in the first place. The modern English should feel no shame about what their ancestors did to the ancestors of the Irish. They should feel sympathy for the victims, and empathy but that's all.
Similarly Irish people should therefore not shy away from the reasons behind names, or any history in general.
About the games in Croker. I wish I was going. I LOVE Croke Park, and I love Irish rugby and I just hope that we can walk into the stadium on both those days with hopes of a Grand Slam still in reach. It'll be a hard thing for ANY team to walk into that place and face a fired up Irish team. So for me it comes down to that opening game in the Millenium Stadium (another great one). Win there and we'll be firmly on the way.
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As a Northside Dublin GAA man, I cant wait to have international sports played at my doorstep, but I think a lot of people are missing the point. The argument is not just about Bloody Sunday (to number 68, if you watched the news last week you'd have seen that abuses by the british on our island continue to this day, so we're not all "living in the past"). Its about our culture and identity which has been hijacked by a foreign agressor for 800 years. The GAA was one of the few organisations to continue to sustain and develop our unique "Irishness". And thank God for that. For the Unionists out there, Amhr谩n na bhFiann and the Tricolour should be as much part of your heritage as ours (thats if you really call yourselves Irish, otherwise you should be following the men in white. And, do any Northern Rugby fans know what the flag signifies????)
So lets give the English good hiding, if not just to give P谩irc an Chr贸caigh another party to remember!
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Post 66. What a rediculous load of rubbish. Italians never shot English rubgy players dead at Twickenham. Michael Hogan, a member of the GAA, was shot dead on the pitch at Croke Park. The Hogan Stand is named after him and therefore pumping out the anthem of the country that shot is a little hard to take. Why not go pump out the the Lybian national anthem out over Lockerbie? No, wait, that might upset some people. So don't come on here trying to sound so high and mighty as though you're one of these Irish people who is above dislike of the English. Those people are generally pr*ts and that would seem to be accurate in your case judging by your post.
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Joxer - I think you, and all the Irish still fighting the "war", are missing the point. The police that helped the Loyalist paramilitaries were the same (Northern) "Irishman" you are asking to respect the flag and Amhran na bhfiann. The vast majority of the NI policeforce is not made of English, Scottish or Welshman but N. Irish. No wonder you hate the English/British, if everybody you don't agree with on your Island is "English" or "British" and anybody else is "Irish" and no wonder these people feel alienated. These are the same "Irishmen" who, as I understand it, are being denied the right of anthem and flag honoured in Belfast.
P.S - thanks for illustrating my point about people picking, choosing and distorting points of history to demonstrate their own goals and xenophobia.
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Joxer - I think you, and all the Irish still fighting the "war" are missing the point. The police that helped the Loyalist paramilitaries were the same (Northern) "Irishman" you are asking to respect the flag and Amhran na bhfiann. The vast majority of the NI policeforce is not made of English, Scottish or Welshman but N. Irish. No wonder you hate the English/British, if everybody you don't agree with on your Island is "English" or "British" and anybody else is "Irish" and no wonder these people feel alienated. These are the same "Irishmen" who, as I understand it, are being denied the right of anthem and flag honoured in Belfast.
P.S - thanks for illustrating my point about people picking, choosing and distorting points of history to demonstrate their own goals and xenophobia.
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Poster 71, you obviously have issues with the GAA and you're entitled to them, but do not expect me or any other self respecting Irish sports fan to agree with your self righteous attitude and snobbish attitude to the GAA.
When all else around them were tossing away their money and not looking forward the GAA had the foresight to develop their own arena at the danger and cost to their own association. Have the decency to acknowledge that. Other associations would have had the same funding available to them if they had the foresight to do likewise.
Your attitude towards the GAA stinks and taints any opinion you may wish to put across.
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Were a great nation for making ourselves heard on the internet, cant believe this is still going on. Think back I suppose to Ronnie O鈥橞rien, Wicklow soccer player, voted one of Time Magazines greatest living people. The Fureys song, A Nation Once Again, greatest song of the century on this very Website.
I feel sorry for Will there in 37, what he has to say is very true.
I remember supporting the English soccer team in a pub in Temple Bar (which was full of Irish and English fans) when playing Germany in a world cup qualifier, same day we beat the Dutch in Dublin. I was delighted for them and they were delighted for us, but a few Irish fellas were livid that I was congratulating the English lads and told me so. I was called a traitor etc. I asked them what their rational was, and why should we hate them? 麓They鈥檙e English, and it鈥檚 because of them and their butchery down through the years that were speaking their f%#kin language麓 I was told. Which I replied to them 麓Well if they hadn鈥檛 defeated the Nazis in WW2 we鈥檇 be speaking German right now, so would you prefer that? 麓, at that point I had to leave the pub.
As for the English rugby fans theyre always gracious in defeat, and we should remember that, and not to confuse them with the soccer hooligans.
Last point id like to make is what people thought of The Minster of Sports calling for a United Irish Soccer team, what do people of the North and those of us from the South think of the idea?
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I have no problem with the English, I feel we're a bigger Nation than all this rubbish now at this stage of our lives.
Its pure sport now.
Bring em in, lock the doors, and lets kick the living sh*te out of em in Croker though!
Sportingly of course....
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Ok! I think everybody is excited and delighted to see the Irish rugby team play in Croke Park, no matter what their views on past deeds done by Britton are.
However, to say that it is all in the past and should be forgotton is madness. For the simple fact that [presently] six irish countys are still under british rule, and as long as the are it'll be almost impossible to just forget. But I agree this should not affect our judgement to move on and evolve. Just to illustrate my point about the present: There's no easy solution to the debate of what anthems should be played at Ravenhill. Post 63 by Gerry, gave us the letter of the law regarding Protocol for Anthems. But as we can see in this case, its still a difficult difficult situation.
Irelands rugby team is made up of 32 countys but only 26 of thoes are considered home ground.
So I say it again, how can we forget? With constaint reminders in the present! As for GSTQ. Every nation deserves to have their national anthem played at internationals. Of coarse as a irish man I'll respect the english during thier anthem. Personally, I'll find it hard to take while GSTQ is being belted out at Croker but once the first whistel is sounded. There'll only be one thing on my mind!
PS:Surely what ever respect John Pullin earned for england in 1972, Martin Johnson has undone.
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Aidan Prior.
With regards to a UI soccer team.
Most people up are here are strongly against it. Those who actively support Northern Ireland are against it vehemently. The division up North will be between those who are nationalist and who (generally but not exclusively) support the Republic, and those like me who feel Northern Irish. Whilst I feel Irish I feel more Northern Irish. I am happy that tradition and history brings us together in rugby, but happy also that my Northern Irishness is represented in soccer. I don't think I am unrepresentative of those from the unionist tradition who follow Ireland at rugby. I love the atmosphere at Windsor Park when we take on the worlds best. There will be those who represent this stance as being bigoted. There are those for whom anyone not wanting a united Ireland MUST be portrayed as being inspired by religious or political bigotry. We've learnt to live with it.But it isn't anything like the mutual respect we are told so often by politicans the 'two traditions' should expect from each other.
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Michael - whilst I respect your views and the capable, level headed way you present them. But, these actions you refer to took place way before anybody on this site was born. How long do you feel you should bear a grudge and hold vigil for? Sadly, what Aidan says is not uncommon and although the Irish tend to be more polite and informed than the Scots wrt this, anti English feeling is just as widespread, strong and equally mindless. Much of it appears to be due to things that happened at least a century ago. Just to add to Aidan's point, I am sure you are all away of Nazi sympathies in the S. Should the British hate the Irish because a significant minority supported the Nazis a mere 60 years ago? (And I will not dip into more recent Irish funded attrocities on the mainland of the UK) With any country with a significant history, if you go back far enough, you can dig up moments of pride and shame, of joy and pain. It seems a parculiar Irish caracteristic to almost soley concentrate on the latter and, in some cases, use these to negative effect.
Finally, thanks to people like Aidan and Brian I feel a little bit less pessimistic about the future of Ireland. But then I see the intransigent views of people both sides of the divide on these threads and well....
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Re message 82
Steve, who do you class as 鈥渕ost people鈥. I would imagine a sizeable majority of nationalist would be for an all Ireland team (what with them being nationalist) I would also imagine a section of the unionist community would be for it on sporting reasons and yet more from that community would voice acute indifference.
So by most people do you mean most of the 8000 that usually turn up at the crucible of hate that is Windsor Park
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I wish to respond to post 37 - English Rugby Fan . I am an Irish supporter and I will welcome any English supporter to our country & I hope you enjoy the game at Lansdown CrokePark. I see England as a rival team and will obviously hope Ireland win but in no way do I, or the majority of Irish people resent Modern day England or English people. We may slag you off for a bit of banter but our welcome is genuine. I think it is great that the GAA have voted in favour to accommodate the FAI & IRFU & maybe if Croke Park needs to be temporarily closed for one last upgrade we can welcome GAA to the new Lansdown Road!! Now lets hope Croke park is a great fortress for Steve Staunton & Eddie O'Sullivan....
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Hi Paul,
Most people would mean, er, a 'majority'. Look it up in the dictionary. As for 'crucible of hate'. Northern Ireland fans have been appointed best fans in Europe by UEFA, not least because of the stance they have taken against sectarianism - as well as the marvellous atmosphere. Great it is too, and my kids love coming along to Windsor. You doubtless will have read about this and blanked it from your mind. Bigoted nationalists who can't stand the term 'Northern Ireland', who despise anything to do with Britain, who will never be anything other than begrudging and negative of any positive reporting of unionists, take the same line , and language, as you. Your language being warped, bigoted and pitiful. Singing the British national anthem, and having a Northern Ireland flag or union flag are, by definition to you and your ilk, to be described as bigoted. Why? Because it is the cheapest, nastiest and most intolerant way for you to express your own bile - by transferring it onto the alleged behaviour of others.While people like you exist, as you do sadly on both sides of the divide, there will not be a full 'rapprochement' between the two traditions, more is the pity. You lack respect, self confidence and integrity. Shame on you.
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"to say that it is all in the past and should be forgotton is madness. For the simple fact that [presently] six irish countys are still under british rule, and as long as the are it'll be almost impossible to just forget. But I agree this should not affect our judgement to move on and evolve." Is this not a contradiction in terms? Dig up the past and say it should never be forgotten and then say to move on and evolve.
Most of the problems in Ireland are because people, pig headedly, cannot accept the differences and free will of people within their own country. It is obsurd that people from a democratic country should ignore the democratic wishes of the majority of people in another (to the extent where many find the need to fund an armed struggle.)
Michael - In 1920 the representatives of the majority of the population of N. Ireland chose not to be part of Ireland. Get over it. The attrocities you complain about were over 90 years ago. Get over it. Until you do you will not be able to move on and evolve. Or if you do not get over it at least accept that attrocities have been committed in recent history in the name of Ireland and at least accept and understand the views of your fellow "Irishman" in the North.
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International sport is always politically tinged and driven by nationalistic fervour so to decry anyone for connecting sport and politics is naive. Croke Park to me is a super stadium and a monument to our native games and the men and women who have worked to make them what they are today. Croke Park is testament to vision of those involved with the organisation, their ambition and confidence reaches for the skies. Back in the early 90鈥檚 Ireland was in the doldrums, money was tight and jobs few and to their credit the GAA started what must be Irelands largest constructions project. Providing jobs and inspiration, that we could strive to have the best in Ireland.
Regarding the past history of the stadium, its one that should be remembered but I would not use it to beat our English visitors. I would like all visitors to have a sense of the place and what it means to Irish people, that they leave knowing something of our national games and the GAA as an organisation of over 1 million members. To me hurling in particularly connects us with our ancient past and Croke Park shows how this is still relevant to who we are today 2000 years or more after its advent. I first and foremost am a GAA man and believe that we have the greatest games in the world and want to see these go from strength to strength. I know we are in competition with other sports for the hearts and minds and money of the people of Ireland and see the opening of Croke Park as an opportunity and a threat. The opportunity is to showcase the organisation to other Irish people and visitors ( the latter is less important really as they are unlikely to play our games). The money we can generate can be ploughed back into the grass roots of our games, employing coaches, supporting schools and publicising our games. The threat is offering our competitors use of our shop window!
Of the 2 codes that will soon grace Croke Park 鈥 soccer and rugby 鈥 Rugby for me causes me less concern, it鈥檚 an all Ireland team and it鈥檚 a winter sport so does not conflict directly with our high season (well usually I know the World Cup will clash).
Soccer is like the unwanted cousin that comes to visit when your friend comes for tea, it follows in the IRFU鈥檚 wake, they are in Croke Park on sufferance!
Regarding GSTQ 鈥 I have not issue really, we are open for business and that鈥檚 the song the English use. That load of gibberish by Phil Coulter is another thing, I would prefer them to just play the Irish national anthem but understand why they don鈥檛 鈥 but why do we have to use such a poor song and why does it have to be in English, surely no right thinking Irish person, irrespective of political persuasion could have an issue with the anthem being in the native language of the country? It might have even helped to depoliticise the language, an admirable by-product.
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Joe,
I have no problems with your arguments or sentiments. However whilst I can accept your feeling that an Irish anthem should be in Irish - I cannot for the life of me understand anyone who says the phrase 'no right thinking person' - under any circumstances. That really means you wish to close your mind to any counter argument and enjoy your exclusivity. I and my family ,and nearly all of my friends have no history ever of speaking Irish. I have no problem with you enjoying your language but to imply as you do that I am not 'a right thinking person' because my history and background has not led me to have an affinity with the Irish language, and therefore presumably I am less Irish as a result, is a bit harsh don't you think? Like it or not we are all linked by the English language. Again I have to say that rugby must maintain, or instil where it does not exist, a mutual respect amongst all who support the Irish team. And insisting that a unified anthem MUST be in Irish defeats whatever purpose such an anthem will have. Does it ever dawn on some of you that we unionists in the North are not some sort of perversion of Irishness? You seem to think that if a wand is waved, or in some cases enough force or chicanery used, we will see the error of our ways and come into the Gaelic fold.Accept us as Irishmen, accept us as being British, and accept us for what we are when we cheer on Ireland, not what you would want us to be, or as a deviance to be barely tolerated pending some future arrangement.
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Joe,
Thanks so much for such a well written, balanced and enlightening comment. It is easy to forget that the majority are balanced, positive and forward looking.
The comment about the national anthem is a good one. To tackle that one, taking into account Steve and Northern sentiment, would it not be an idea to do what NZ has done and have it in both languages?
Sorry, I know this is a side track, but I have always wanted to know, why is it most rebel songs you hear are in English and not Gaelic?
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I cant believe all the misplaced simplistic sentiment expressed so far on this topic.
Rugby has always been one of the few team sports that has united the majority of Irish people north and south, one common sporting goal to put one over on the Aussies, French and English. Even in the darkest days the team was supported by Irish people from both sides of the divide for 80mins we were all at peace!. The Lansdowne road roar would replace our troubles.
My point is please do not ruin the whole ethos of Rugby by getting political. I cant help but feel those using this forum to express political sentiments, are not what i would call true Rugby supporters.
One last point is i know that the IRFU, IFA are interested building a stadium outside Belfast on the site of the old maze prison, i believe the GAA are also considering interest in working with both parties, with a view to using this stadium for ulster finals and other big matches. My wish would be that if this stadium gets the go ahead and if its over 45,000 capacity that at least one Autumn international and one 6 nations match should be played in that venue per year. It would be good reward and thank you to the people of Ulster.
I been to Croke park several times, with regret only for semi finals or if we had to play the Dubs, i found it to be an excellent venue. Two years ago i won a competition to watch a match at the Nou Camp and found it to be only ever so slightly more impressive in certain aspects they were on a par.
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Steve,
Yes I agree with your comments on post 89 entirely.I am an Irishman and an Ulsterman and politically would be nationalist but i agree with your overall sentiments.Being Irish should not be pigeonedholed into some narrow gaelic notion of irishness.
This attitude i feel has alienated Unionists and resulted in many not wishing to feel any affinity with the land of their birth.Hopefully we can change that by appreciating that to be Irish is to be the green and/or the orange and not exclusively one over the other if you know what i mean.I think rugby addresses the issue of seeking unifying themes for both sides.We re not there yet but we are getting there.
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Sticks and stones Steve.
Please expand on your theory that most people in Northern Ireland support a Northern Ireland team.
Also
What鈥檚 this northern Ireland flag you speak off? Do you mean the Ulster banner, the flag of the stormont government? Who during their fifty year tenure appointed 1 catholic minister, that鈥檚 1 over 50 years from a group that made up 40-45% of the countries population.
You do know it's not actually the Northern Ireland flag
Why was John Hartson booed during the world cup qualifiers?
Why do northern ireland supporters object so vocally to moving away from their home in a staunchly loyalist area of Belfast
And remind us what reaction northern Ireland captain Neil Lennon received from his home supporters prior to receiving death threats
Oh one more, what chant greeted the ROI soccer team on to the pitch in 1993 a few weeks after the Greysteel massacre
And the award you speak of wasn鈥檛 made to Northern Ireland en masse it was made to the Amalgamation of Northern Ireland Football Supporters Clubs. I鈥檒l quote you one of the initiatives that won this award
鈥淚n one of his most powerful initiatives, Rainey has allocated 600 seats at Windsor Park, home of the national team, where peaceful supporters can sing together and create a fresh atmosphere free of sectarian chants.鈥
A area is set a side for 600 non sectarian supporters, well crack open the bubbly and call the mexican dancing girls
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Interestingly rule 42 bans foreign games on irish soil, emmmmm?? I was at an american football match there a few years back?.
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Joxer @ 74
Plenty of "Northern" fans know what the flag of the Republic represents. We also understand the persecution of those represented by the orange band following your exit from the union.
The real point of the matter is this. The IRFU explicity kept an all Ireland rugby team to depoliticise the whole event. Therefore NO union flags and no irish tricolours should be displayed and NO anthems of a particular nation/country should be played. However this is blatently disregarded in the ROI at the moment. Just look at the Ulstermen in the team when the anthem is playing. They just uncomfortably look at the turf and do nothing. Hardly inspiring for them I'd imagine...
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Al
"Just look at the Ulstermen in the team when the anthem is playing. They just uncomfortably look at the turf and do nothing. Hardly inspiring for them I'd imagine..."
What, you mean like Ulstermen Tommy Bowe and Isaac Boss? One from Monaghan and one from New Zealand - who can both be seen singing the anthem proudly.
You don't even know what Ulster means, so perhaps you shouldn't be lecturing the rest of the Irish on how the IRFU should behave.
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I'm Welsh and have been watching and supporting rugby since I was about 8 years old. I empathise with alot of the posts here and understand that for many people allowing rugby to be played at Croke Park is a big deal most of the reasons for this have already been stated. I'm proud to call myself a rugby player and supporter because rugby has ever existed outside of the political stigma that affects so many other sports! The fact that fans of different teams are allowed to mix freely at the stadiums without trouble, the fact that Ireland has an Irish team not a Northern Irish team and Republic of Ireland team. Lets leave the politics to politcians and just enjoy the rugby for what it is, a great inclusive game, one that sets an example to other sports and one to be proud of. I can't wait for this weekend. I can't wait to watch all the games (yes I'll be watching every international not just the Welsh games because I just love rugby)but most of all I can't wait to have an amazing laugh with people from all 6 nations over the coming weeks. I'll look forward to meeting lots of you Irish over the weekend in my fair city of Cardiff.
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Hi, I think we should remember that the English were the team that came to Landsdowne Road during the troublesdespite death threats, when scotland and wales wouldn't. Let's think about the rugby and welcome them to our stadium and let them marvel at it's splendour.
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Just to add an ironic twist to all of this.
Belvedere College, which is quite close to GAA HQ, used to have their Rugby pitches beside Croke Park.(Before they moved them out to the Navan Road) When the GAA were expaning, before the latest development of the ground, they apporached Belvo about selling the the land to facilitate their expansion plans. Belvo agreed.
Two points on this 1) Since Belvo was founded in 1830's and rugby was played in Ireland since the 1850's and the GAA did not get their hands on the ground until 1913, it is highly likely that Rugby was played on the hallow turf long before GAA Football or Hurling ever got a chance 2) If Belvo had displyed the same narrow mindness to other sports that the GAA has, well we may not be looking at Croke Park on the same scale as it is today
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I Think its fantastic that Rugby and soccer are going to be played at croke park this year but its history should be respected.
I come to this from a fairly unique postion, i was born in London, my dad is from the shankhill in Belfast and my mum is from the Limerick Kerry border..we moved back to Ireland when i was 12 to a place called Killaloe in Clare..
The school i went to played hurling at break time, i learned to play,
best field team sport there is IMO. A week after i started i brought my football in and we played soccer as well, a few days later a one KIETH WOOD came upto me to invite me to some trials for a soccer team he played for in Limerick
a few years later we both played for the towns HURLING team that won the clare under 16 championship
our reward was a visit to the old Croke park to see the first combined rules football game.
Majority of Irish love GAA, Soccer and Rugby
History can be respected without getting bitter and twisted and shouldnt stop anybody playing the game they choose anywhere they choose to play it
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Well,Paul - it appears the blogmeister would not allow me to respond to your 'argument' in the way I wanted to. So be it. He is probably right. In any event there is no point arguing with someone so lacking in generosity of spirit, and so determined to paint the worst possible picture of some of your fellow Irishmen. There have been plenty of people from an apparantly nationalist background who have appeared on this thread to reassure me that my support for Ireland is not unwarranted or ignored. They and I can truly feel together when we cheer on the team. You can put whatever twist you want on your conditional allegience.
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As an Englishman of Irish, Catholic decent I always find this capacity by sections of Ireland to drag up long past, often irrelevant history to justify their chips on their shoulder incredible.
Glad to see the great comments by the majority and to the petty, bitter minority, get a grip.
Interesting and enlightening James. Perhaps the Croke park tradition we keep hearing about is Rugby! Also, illustrates my point about the mindless trawling through history. Look back far enough and you can justify any arguement you want.
Paul - give me a good, modern day, relevant argument as to why so many people from the South like you, still trying to fight some imaginary war? The majority of the people of the N. did not want to be part of the Republic, get over it. To correct your history. On partition N. Ireland was 80% protestant and due to higher birth rates (fueled by a pathetic and cynical "Breed the British out" campaign) the Catholic proportion has increased to the numbers you say. Put that and the deplorable armed "struggle" and if I were a N. Irish Proddy I too would be asking myself why his democratic, Nationalist brothers deciding to use their beligerent free will to deny him his and threaten his safety. I have always thought the whole "British out" mantra is just a thinly veiled rouse to stop the Nationalists from having to admit they are denying their own fellow Irishmen their rights. Easier to blame a foreigner for your problems after all. :-)
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As an Englishman of Irish, Catholic decent I always find this capacity by sections of Ireland to drag up long past, often irrelevant history to justify the chip on their shoulders incredible.
Glad to see the great comments by the majority and to the petty, bitter minority, get a grip. Look at yourselves and instead of blaming others for past problems try and look at yourselves, your own attitudes and how that hinders the progress of the whole of Ireland, both Nationalist and Unionist, not just your community. I always find this small minded attitude toward the "other" community most baffling in the Nationalist seem to dispise. At least the Unionists believe the answer to the mismatch is to seperate. That said, the "sensible" majority of Irish people also bear some responsibility for this. You can't sit back accept and tolerate these prejudicial views from your community to the other just because it doesn't affect you personally. The allowing of Rugby at Croke is just the start of eroding some of the backward looking views prevailent in Ireland, even if it was the views of just 1 organisation. It was one of the most influential in promoting this pschitsophrenic attitude(sorry don't have a dictionary).
Interesting and enlightening James. Perhaps the Croke park tradition we keep hearing about is Rugby! Also, illustrates my point about the mindless trawling through history. Look back far enough and you can justify any arguement you want.
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Regarding posting #19 from "Aidan Prior"
Do not be so quick to dismiss the past. Our history and our great sporting occasions are what has made us who we are today. It will truly be a momentus occasion seeing international rugby and soccer being played at Croker, but always remember the history of Croker and the people who died and were persecuted. We are a free country today with unique national sports because of those who suffered. Always remember our past but still welcome the English fans and the game of rugby to Croker. I doubt they will overlook the significance of this historical occasion. Along with their Irish hosts they will revel in the unique atmosphere in one of the greatest sporting arenas in the world. Eireann abu!
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Sorry that should have read "I always find this small minded attitude toward the "other" community most baffling in Nationalists as they seem to desperately strive for unity with a community they seem to dispise."
Sorry. Corrected my previous post when it was rejected. Then it sent the first one anyway.
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Croke Park has been used for rock concerts in the past - in which British/English artists have performed. There is 'foreign' advertising within the ground. Cork, the socalled rebel county of Ireland GAA teams are sponsered by O2 (British telecommunications). Although all Gaelic jerseys are made by Irish companies the players often were 'foreign' football boots. With these things in mind - the banning of 'foreign' sports has been somewhat of a joke.
However the playing of God Save the Queen is quite rightly a contentious issue.
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SIMON, Post 98. Yes, England came to Lansdowne Road, got beaten 1-0 and caused a riot. Se谩n M , the shooting dead of Michael Hogan on the Croke Park pitch by the British is entirely relevant to this debate. Think about that as you sit in the Hogan Stand at Croke Park, named in his honour, if you are ever at a Rubgy/Soccer match in Croke Park. Post 99, James. Rugby played on one pitch, GAA on another pitch at the complex. The GAA was(and still is) far more popular and therefore the weight of public opinion and large sums of money made ''Belvo'' change their minds. They didn't just hand it over scot free.
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Peter - Whilst appreciating the sensitivity to some people, the only reason the debate is relevant today is because the GAA and certain sections have taken over 90 years to put this to bed. 3 generations is a long time to bear a grudge, get over it and accept reality by anybodys measure.
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I feel I must take issue with the person in post 89. How can you be both British and Irish? You are either one or the other. As for accepting you in the GAELIC fold, I for one do not need you. I am proud to be Irish in this modern age and everything that it represents and I wish I could be there at CROKE Park for the upcoming matches (both football and rugby). I HOPE that the all the visiting teams are welcomed with open arms and all due respect is shown to both them and their national anthems. I still hope that we absolutely thrash both France and England. Let us move on from all the stupidities of the past.
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What Steve he wouldn鈥檛 let you respond that
Windsor park is not in a staunchly loyalist area?
That the 鈥渦lster banner鈥 was never the flag of northern ireland but of a uber sectarian government regime
That the northern ireland captain wasn鈥檛 booed by his own supporters for having the audacity to play for a 鈥渃atholic鈥 team.
That his team mate at celtic didn鈥檛 receive the same treatment when he played at windsor two years ago.
That the ROI team weren鈥檛 greeted with a chorus of 鈥渢rick or treat鈥 when they took to the field in 1993, ironically one of the perpetrators of the particular massacre the NI fans were referring to that night had his early release licence revoked for stabbing someone at, wait for it, Windsor park.
Oh and while were talking particular night is it not true that the northern manager that night encourage the fans in their sectarian singing like some grotesque conductor
But as I say Steve congrat鈥檚 on the award,
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Just to let every1 no, rule 42 was ammended for the year 2007 only
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James Scully,
I happen to be Northern Irish. That means more to me than anything, except for my Britishness. But I am, by dint of the geography and history of these isles, regarded as being Irish as well, and I welcome that too.
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James Scully,
I happen to be Northern Irish. That means more to me than anything, except for my Britishness. But I am, by dint of the geography and history of these isles, regarded as being Irish as well, and I welcome that too.
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I have just read the 109 entries and must say there are some great points raised. We can make this issue as complicated or as simple as we choose. Whether to play 'foreign sports' at Croke Park is not an easy issue to resolve ... or maybe it is.
Anyone can quote the terrible atrocities that were carried out by all sides in the past. The real debate is 鈥楾oday, do we have respect for other people'. I鈥檇 like to think we do.
The GAA have demonstrated their respect by allowing Rugby + Soccer to be played.
An excellent example in Leadership and democracy. We as individuals must make a similar decision.
As a Limerick-man I was most interested to learn more about the Unionist view-point of Irish Rugby. The unusual reality is that a section of the Irish rugby team is British. It is my opinion that we should find some way of accommodating that reality. I thought that IC was at least a step in the right direction.
For England not to be received respectfully in CP will reflect more on Ireland鈥檚 Present state as opposed to England鈥檚 Past.
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I feel that the decision to allow rugby ans soccer to be played in Croke Park WHILE LANDSDOWNE RD is being re-developed is the correct one i do feel it would be disrespectful the English national anthem to be played.
Also ever since the GAA have decided to allow soccer and rugby to be played at headquarters the GAA have been bombarded with compliments by both Rugby and Soccer supporters, we have heard what a great organisation the GAA is and how it is unbelievable stadium! Werent these the same people who not in the too distant past hadnt a good word to say about or organisation? The same soccer supporters who said they wud never set foot in Croke Park?
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MONEY TALKS!
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That the GAA's rule 42 banned foreign sports is a myth created by the media. Nowehere is there a mention made of "foreign" sports. The point of the ban was more to do with survival of the GAA games than anything else. The ban was specifically on sports which would be in direct competition with GAA games, which does not include U2 concerts or American football. It was convenient for a media which was very much pro opening up Croke Park to rugby and soccer to state that the ban was rooted in a hatred of all things English or British, whereas in reality it was an attempt for amateur sports to survive against their main rivals.
Also, the notion that CP should be opened to all sports because it received Government funding is ludicrous. Many institutions, sporting and otherwise, receive Government funding, and there is no reason to assume every taxpayer will be granted access. Also, one of the conditions attached to the opening of Croke Park was that the redeveloped Lansdowne Road could accomadate GAA games. In fact, AFAIK, the plans submitted are for a pitch which is smaller than the minimum GAA specifications. Given that Lansdowne Road is receiving vastly more exchequer funding than Croke Park ever did, where is the uproar about this?
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That the GAA's rule 42 banned foreign sports in Croke Park is a myth created by the media. Nowhere is there a mention made of "foreign" sports. The point of the ban was more to do with survival of the GAA games than anything else. The ban was specifically on sports which would be in direct competition with GAA games, which does not include U2 concerts or American football. It was convenient for a media which was very much pro opening up Croke Park to rugby and soccer to state that the ban was rooted in a hatred of all things English or British, whereas in reality it was an attempt for amateur sports to survive against their main rivals.
Also, the notion that CP should be opened to all sports because it received Government funding is ludicrous. Many institutions, sporting and otherwise, receive Government funding, and there is no reason to assume every taxpayer will be granted access. Also, one of the conditions attached to the opening of Croke Park was that the redeveloped Lansdowne Road could accomadate GAA games. In fact, AFAIK, the plans submitted are for a pitch which is smaller than the minimum GAA specifications. Given that Lansdowne Road is receiving vastly more exchequer funding than Croke Park ever did, where is the uproar about this?
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There are some very sad comments on this site and they reflect an attitude that I still can't believe people have in this country. Firstly nobody need forget their history and the history of Croke Park. That said nobody should have to have it bashed over the head and made to feel guilty for events that happened almost 90 years ago.
Second with regard to anthems, every country has the right to hear their anthem played. For Ireland this is more complicated given that rugby is an all Ireland sport and the authorities are sensitive to the fact that 'Amhr谩n na bhFian' is not the national anthem of all of the team. It was for that reason that 'Ireland's Call' was written to provide a non-sectarian anthem for the team. But to tell a visiting team that we don't respect or won't play their anthem is hugely insulting. Could you imagine the outrage if the positions were reversed and we were told that we couldn't have our choice of anthem played. There would be a lot more posts on this site I guess. Ironically I do know that some English fans would prefer an English rather than a British anthem to represent their team but that another issue.
Finally I'm glad the GAA had the courage to open up Croke Park. Its a world class stadium that has few betters in Europe or the World. I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of the world's media marvel at the achievement of what is at heart an amateur organisation.
We have so much to proud of in Ireland this weekend. All we have to do is celebrate it by beating the French and then England a couple of weeks later.
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Re poster 72.
I defend Ireland's Call as a very good alternative anthem. I sang it with much gusto and pride in Cardiff on Sunday along with any other people in green that I could see!
As for Song For Ireland, that would surely be a truly brilliant and appropriate song also, with lyrics that would offend noone, but inspire the Irish public and the Irish team. If it is not too late, maybe Mary Black could be booked to sing it prior to the anthems at the English game with the words in the Programme so that all could join in.
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It'll be very interesting to see how the playing surface holds up to all the scrummaging - mind you it can't be any worse than the carpet, that the players keep pushing up in mounds, they call the turf in the Millenium Stadium
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Being English i don't know enough about Irish history to comment on most of the points raised and being a lover and not a fighter don't want to offend anyone.
However to suggest that GSTQ should not be played in disgracefull. Can you imagine a situation where another rugby nation would not allow the visiting team to play their national anthem??
I'm sick of the fact that every nation in the world can display its support for their country and it is seen in a positive light but when the English do it, it has neagative connertations. We english have worked hard to reclaim our flag and anthem from the racists and bigots and should feel proud to sing it aloud.
I don't know how much the debate has raged in Ireland regarding the playing of GSTQ, or if its just a minority of people on the internet but if the situation did arise where we were told that GSTQ would not be played I would tell those involved to get stuffed, apoligise to the fans and get on the first flight back to the UK.
But like I said at the start i'm a lover not a fighter so why don't we all just get along, support our own team and remember that ITS JUST A GAME!!
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Being English i don't know enough about Irish history to comment on most of the points raised and being a lover and not a fighter don't want to offend anyone.
However to suggest that GSTQ should not be played in disgracefull. Can you imagine a situation where another rugby nation would not allow the visiting team to play their national anthem??
I'm sick of the fact that every nation in the world can display its support for their country and it is seen in a positive light but when the English do it, it has neagative connertations. We english have worked hard to reclaim our flag and anthem from the racists and bigots and should feel proud to sing it aloud.
I don't know how much the debate has raged in Ireland regarding the playing of GSTQ, or if its just a minority of people on the internet but if the situation did arise where we were told that GSTQ would not be played I would tell those involved to get stuffed, apoligise to the fans and get on the first flight back to the UK.
But like I said at the start i'm a lover not a fighter so why don't we all just get along, support our own team and remember that ITS JUST A GAME!!
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Adrian Blackburn get your facts straight.
The vast majority of the money from Croke Park did not come from taxpayers..only a fraction of it, most of it was raised by the organisation themselves. Also the IRFU stand to make over 3 times what the GAA will make from the rugby matches, they are getting the ground on the cheap.
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hi
just to remind steve that i come from the north and owe allegiance to the tricoulour and amran na bfiann and am a ulster rugby fan but i have to unjustly endure the union jack at ravenhill.
S L
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Post 108, these ''certain sections'' you make reference to are the GAA I would assume? It sounds as though they are being described as a minority in some sense. Remember that the GAA(hurling and football combined) is the biggest sport in Ireland and they twice voted not to allow Soccer and Rugny in to Croker. If everyone is so quick to 'get over it' why don't British people pump out the Lybian anthem at Lockerbie or the Americans pump out the Afghani national anthem at the the WTC site?
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Re 122, Its is only the attitude of a tiny minority in Ireland. I am ashamed to say they have abused this forum. Everyone is welcome at Croke park, i am just so ashamed of the misguided spokesmen on irish sports
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I don't understand all the fuss regarding the English coming to play in Croke Park.I myself am hugely looking forward to the occasion and will feel very proud next Sunday when Ireland take on France and we finally get to show off our magnificant stadium to the world.
I think people should stop spoiling the build-up and be respectful to the English,after all they were the only team that played in Ireland during the times of the Black and Tans.So we should respest and welcome them and concentrate more on shouting on BOD and the rest of the men in green!!!
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All this republican crap would be laughable if it weren鈥檛 so pathetic! History is history, move on. We鈥檙e talking about a football stadium here not the 8th wonder of the world. Thankfully, despite what the rants on here would suggest, most Irish people (at least those with half a brain) couldn鈥檛 give a dam who plays in Croke Park. Bring on Michael Flatley and Riverdance at half time for all I care.
As for the national anthems鈥︹crap them all. Who really wants God to save the Queen and who cares about a soldier鈥檚 song?!
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Thanks Brendan for putting a bit of clarity to the situation! Couldn't help but laugh and agree.
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Paul your comments are so full of irrelevant facts, innuendo and half truth I don't know where to begin. Perhaps I could start by asking what exactly is the point of your ranting about Northern Ireland football fans?
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The Irish team are struggling with injuries to ODriscoll and Stringer for the English game, 2 players that any team in the world would miss and would find difficult to replace, that being said the English will be missing their tanks and machine guns for the trip to Croke Park.
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I've read with interest some of these posts, and have to say am rather disappointed but not surprised that it has been turned into the usual Anti English/Anti Irish rant.
It is very easy to dismiss uneasiness of Crokers opening with the usual 鈥渟tuck in the past鈥 comments but in fact it goes much deeper then that for a lot of people. I was recently in London and was talking to an English WW2 veteran. We were talking about places we have visited and travelled to and I mentioned Japan. This gentleman said that he would never want to travel there due to the way POWs were treated During WW2. Now he had never been a POW but I did not feel inclined nor did I feel it was my place to say to this man 鈥測our stuck in the past鈥 nor would I feel it right to say that to his grandchildren if they adopted the same attitude.
A common comparison to England playing in croker is Germany playing in Wembley a few years after the War. This is somewhat incorrect as it was for all intents and purposes, the Nazis and not Germany who were at war. I think that most English fans would鈥檝e found it rather unpalatable for the Nazi salute to be given at Wembley rather then Das Lied der Deutschen which was used 100 years before the Nazis were ever around.
I am a proud 22 year old Irish sports fan, who follows all our sports, but mainly GAA. I would have preferred it if Croker had not been opened up to other sports but I believe in democracy and as such, have accepted the fact that other sports will be played there with good grace. Inside I certainly will wince somewhat as GSTQ is played in croker, but I will respect it as I expect every other Irishman in the stadium will. I do however feel that people, especially the Irish who are in favour of it opening up, should bear the feelings of those who for whatever reason are unable to accept this change. They may be people whose fathers or grand fathers (or they themselves in some cases) fought tooth and nail in the face of English resistance for the right for you to be able to play GAA, to have Croke Park built and as such gave us the opportunity to enjoy it on not just all the previous All Ireland Final days but also the forthcoming rugby & soccer matches.
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To post 133, I would like to thank you for your comment.You put what i feel across very well.It's not about anti-English it's about what Croke Park and the GAA mean to me.
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Post 132 is brillant, im forwarding around the country right now.
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Apparently there's going to be a couple of international rugby matches at Croke Park this year
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Post 134, I appreciate your view more than what was said in Post 133. Whilst well put you are relating like with unlike. What happened 90 years ago, that is 3 generations, by a small, dubious, brigade of irregulars in the BRITISH army has no relation to what happened, a paltry 60 years ago, 2 generations ago by the Imperial Japanese army. To be honest, to me, both were before I was born and, although my grandfathers, who are both now dead, would be able to remember the latter. Not even my greatgrandfather, if he were alive would be able to remember the former. And just to reiterate the point. The Germans have played at Wembley many times since WWI and WWII and were given the honour of being the last team to play at the old Wembley. So, in short there is no comparison. Perhaps a greater comparison would be if in 90 years time the people of Manchester would dig over the bombing there, perpetrated by men who considered themselves Irish, to any Irish people visiting a Man Utd game or Man City game.
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Well said 132 but we do have dennis leamy who is a tank!!
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To post 133 very well put, I think you totally hit the nail on the head I am also disappointed about the anti english feeling from this page. I love to beat england more so than scotland and wales and the only reason for feeling that way is that constantly over time england rugby have set the standards for all the other home nations even when they are going through a dip in form as was suggested for this 6N they are always formidable opponents and when you have a team capable of beating them (eng)or france for that matter you can feel you have a team of real quality no offence to scotland or wales you just don't get the same satisfaction from beating either of them. I have thoroughly enjoyed the first week of the six nations and I feel Irelands grand slam credentials will be tested this weekend maybe England will have to wait until they visit Dublin to measure the quality of their side which I think may be found out.
Post 137 I have a saeson ticket with Man city and in the pub after every match comes the chant Keep St George in my heart keep me english No surrender to the IRA, I don't take any offence nor do I necessarily feel there is a feel of anti irish around the place what i do appreciate is that this comes from from what happened in manchester in the mid ninetys like wise I have a very good relationship with all my english mates who appreciate our history there are no ill feelings between us but the history of ireland is something which i am very pround of (even though I was not alive through most of it!)and the people who made our history can now be proud that Irish people take pride in it and have the benefit of being able to enjoy a mutally respectful realtionship with our neighbours. Something I feel we have now accomplished. lets just look forward to another pulsating weekend of rugby. Come on Ireland!!
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Good on the GAA for looking to the future. Can't wait for the match on Sunday. I'm English & travelling to Croker with my mates from my former clubs in Paris.
If you're there on Sunday Mick McCann poster 132 I hope you'll be able to join me for a glass of something. My round. I promise I wont be bringing a tank or a machinegun...
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Gem - Sorry probably didn't make it clear. I was trying to iterate a point that the events of even a few years ago are not relevant to game being played in a few weeks. Although, many on this blod disagree with me. What happened in my greatgreatgrandfathers time is even less relevant. I was being facetious when I mentioned Manchester but there was a semi serious double edge to it in that many of the "freedom fighters" who bombed the mainland (and may still do) use these old pieces of history to justify their anger. Therefore, to keep churning up these points in history does help to justify peoples bigoted hatred. The people of Manchester, Warrington and London hold no grudge against the Irish, for the actions of a few idiots, and the majority do not even think about what happened. The people of the UK bear no grudge because members of the Irish gov. etc. were closet Nazi sympathisers. However, 90 years on the GAA have finally relented and we are having this debate. As many Irish have pointed out on this blog, it is progress and should be encouraged.
To summise, I whole heartedly agree with what you said.
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In response to post 132
If England are missing there Tanks and Machine Guns for the Ireland invasion then what about Jonny? He must be a nuke because he's going to destroy all the Irish single handed!
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All of this is just plain and simply stupid. Ok I'm an Englishman so I don't fully understand the emotions you have around what happened although this does not mean I do not respect your feelings for what happened. But to deny the English rugby supporters the chance to sing their national anthem because others made commit an unforgivable act many years ago is just wrong. The supporters are going to watch and enjoy rugby, not represent any past BRITISH governments views, or the actions of the BRITISH army.
There would be uproar throughout the Emerald Isles if the Irish anthem was banned at Wembley or Twickenham because of the unforgivable acts of the IRA on in England.
At the end of all of this sport needs to be unpolitical, politics and sport have no business mixing and I hope they remain apart.
I am just looking forward to a great game of rugby in what appears to be a fantastic stadium, and I'm hoping this will be a new page in Croker history, but for the right reasons.
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Same old sad Irish bigotry #132.For all our sakes and that of our children and beyond just let it go.This is a rugby match for Gods sake pure and simple.It will be played in a fabulous stadium that should be open to all sports as my tax money like anyone elses helped put it there.If you want to support Ireland good on you but dont keep dredging up irrelevant history to score sick little points.I'm English living in Ireland and will support the Red Rose 'til the day I die but it doesn't mean I lose sight of the fact its just a game and whoever wins will not alter the politics of the world.So come down off your soapbox and join me in a pint that night to toast whoever wins and for that matter loses in the true spirit of sport.
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The views expressed on here just confirm what everyone in Ireland already knew i.e. there are a lot of small minded people in the GAA who still have a massive chip on their shoulder.
Get over it guys. I鈥檓 a hundred percent certain that no member of the English team shot any of your grandfathers鈥︹ grow up!
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Re.144, i dont think you as an Englishmen have any sort of opinion when it comes to what sports are played in Croke Park.
The Taxpayers money is a myth! Only a small proportion goes to the GAA. Your tax money is also going towards health care, so why dont you go to your local hospital and say you deserve a bed to sleep on! No didnt think so.
The sooner Landsdowne road is ready the better!
Im sure i will be there in the future for a GAA match:)
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Re 144
To suggest that the IRFU and the FAI are entitled to use Croke Park just because some tax payers money went into it is a silly argument. Most of the tax money given ended up back in government coffers anyway in the form of Income Tax, VAT etc. at a time when the construction industry was stagnant in Ireland.
More tax payers money will go into the revamped Lansdowne Rd. a ground that won't be capable (pitch too small) to host the two most highly attended games in Ireland - Hurling and (Gaelic) Football.
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Ahh poor deluded Andy#146.If I contribute to the coffers of this country then ,yes I do have a say!!.The fact that I work for 4 different GAA clubs in a professional capacity entitles me to an opinion on GAA matters as well.As I said at the start of the post ,sad irish bigotry,which you Andy have just shown yourself to be.....a total bigot!!
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I am a true and true GAA man. I dont have a problem with Croke Park being opened, I think its progress. As for the English anthem, its their national anthem, it should get respect wherever its sung, just like I would expect Amhrain na Bhfian to be recieved.
Whether I'd like to admit it or not, both France and England games will be emotional moments for me. Croke Park has been where I've laughed, cheered and cried following my beloved Meath to All-Ireland and Leinster glory.
I understand the history of Croke Park and the GAA. It served a very important purpose back in the early 20th century. But some of those purposes are no longer needed as Ireland has forged its own path since.
The GAA can now continue its pro-Irish porpose one I stand by, But I believe that today Pro-Irish need not mean Anti-British. To all people alive and with ambition today please dont embrace the past, but shape the future!!!
Na Muintir Na hEireann agus Bhreatain cuir le chelie i cairdeas
"the people of Ireland and Britain together in friendship"
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I would also take this opportunity to welcome any French, English, Italian, Scottish, Northern Irish (those who dont already) and Welsh to come to Croke Park during the summer for some GAA games to witness spectacular and unique sporting events played out by amatuer sports men and women.
If Rugby is your game Im sure you can easily relate to the pride and passion that will be on display also with some fine athleticism.
On Sundays six nations game, I've a slight feeling France will win, Ireland looked a bit too shakey, and I think France will score the tries that Wales just missed out on last Sunday.
But heres to hoping I'm wrong, C'mon Ireland
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I would also take this opportunity to welcome any French, English, Italian, Scottish, Northern Irish (those who dont already) and Welsh to come to Croke Park during the summer for some GAA games to witness spectacular and unique sporting events played out by amatuer sports men and women.
If Rugby is your game Im sure you can easily relate to the pride and passion that will be on display also with some fine athleticism.
On Sundays six nations game, I've a slight feeling France will win, Ireland looked a bit too shakey, and I think France will score the tries that Wales just missed out on last Sunday.
But heres to hoping I'm wrong, C'mon Ireland
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One dimentional arguments should not be allowed on here aka 1. Irish bigotry or 2. I'm some stupid tax payer and i paid personally for Croke Park. These arguments have little relevance to people who plainly and simply avoid fact. Like I've said before, play the Lybian national anthem at Lockerbie and the Afghani national anthem at the World Trade Centre site. The IRFU/FAI/IRA are getting far more money than the GAA for their little crappy hole of a stadium anyway, so those arguments do not work. Signed, stereotypical Irish biggot
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I think the English media and a minority of the english rugby fans are getting a bit carried away with their expectations after saturdays resultsagainst a weak scottish side. Some english blogs are saying that england will be abvle to defend their world crown after thrumping scotland. Until England meet a good side like france or Ireland we wont know the potental they have. Enough about Wilkinson, he was okay. The onlyreason he looked very good was that the scots did not put any pressure on him. I think the winner will be decided after the Ireland-france game as I think these are the top two favourites. I would be surprised if England beat Ireland, france or even Wales.
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To-morrow Rugby must leave Croke Park a better place. Croke Park is the home of Irish sport and spirit. Although I would passionately like to see Ireland win, there is something bigger and more important taking place. The bigger and more important aspect is that thousands of amateur Irish sportsmen and women have given their support to diversity. The repayment should simply be respect for all the GAA support. I almost wish that supporters would turn up in their county colours, however, it would probably be better if the county colours are displayed at the stadium.
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In regards to Will post 37,
noone is saying that you should not sing your own anthem, God save the Queen has been sung in Landsowne many times without being hassled.
The debate is that, the history and feelings of the stadium and country be respected and not forgotten.
The english are welcome, there is nothing wrong there, but this is an important part of a lot of peoples history. OK We should look to the future and forget the past,
but this stadium holds something special and if the English are to come, then it is felt that they should know the history, not repent the history but realise why this is such a huge deal in Ireland.
I believe the article was particulary biased and uneccessarily humourous to things we feel strongly about.
I do have a fear that most English people do not know the real truths about what happened in Irish past, but thats over with now, we will move on as Croke Park proves.
We do not want an apology All we ask is the history be aknowledged and not overlooked or excused.
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This is what tomorrow is all about
You never forget even a second of that first trip to Croke Park. It was 1965. Kerry and Galway. The All-Ireland football final. My Dad hoisted me over the turnstiles.
The gateman took me from my Dad's arms and landed me inside the stadium. I looked around and I was overwhelmed.
The green and gold crepe cap was eaten away at the edges with the excitement. I had to chew on something; my nails were paired down to the stubble. Not only was my heart painted green and gold,but my lips were too.
My Dad lifted me again. This time over the parapet of the cement stairway leading to the Upper Deck of the Hogan Stand, to show me how high up we were. I was never so small.
"Don't drop me Dad."
"If you fell down there, I would go after you." I knew for sure he loved me and would die for me if need be. And there was a man that day with the big mad head of a Father Brendan Smith who threatened to kill my father because he advocated the abolition of the GAA ban.
I was a very small boy, but I will never forget the hatred and rage in his purple face. There were other days. My school friends winning their first All-Irelands. Togging out with UCC for a Sigerson semi-final and praying I would get called on.
Alas, it was not to be. Just to get out on the field and have a kick-about at half-time was such an honour. Two years later, my brother John played in the All-Ireland minor final. And played very well. Dad couldn't go. Couldn't stick it. He contended himself with Novenas in Dirha Bog. There was (Seamus) Darby's goal and the tearing down of ancient citadels when Offaly, Wexford and Clare won hurling titles. Nicky and Jimmy Barry. Mick O and Micko.
Armagh won their first and my little boy cried for Kerry at his first. Boys in their 70s cried tears of joy for mighty Armagh, the gutsiest team ever to win an All-Ireland.
No other sporting association can boast of such an unbreakable bond between sport and the people.
The GAA have built and rebuilt here layer on layer, temple on temple, in the manner of all great civilisations. And now we have decided in our wisdom to share this fusion of the spirit world, place and history with all the people of Ireland. Yes, all the people of Ireland. There are still men whose vision is as narrow as the funnel of a biro and I specifically exclude those non-political activists in the GAA who felt the opening would benefit soccer and rugby at the expense of the association.
I believe their thinking to be wrong. But they are wrong for the right reasons. There are racist soccer and rugby supporters who have never made the slightest effort to understand the GAA psyche, preferring instead to accept the quick-fix of the stereotype and the clich茅.
They see GAA people as F铆or Gael with a F谩inne on one lapel and an Easter Lily on the other. Catholic iconoclasts with perfect eyesight due to the fact that they never interfered with their person. Devout haters of foreign games who fervently believe hell is full of spit-roasted prods and West Brit rugby players who hold the tea-cup by the handle instead of around the waist.
The rugby and soccer community must understand what the real and continuous GAA has done for modern Ireland. Kids are coached all over the country by broad-minded, decent, sporting pluralists who ferry children to soccer or rugby on a Saturday, and GAA on a Sunday. The tattered fabric of rural Ireland is held together by the interwoven strands of the GAA. The liberation of the stadium will bridge a divide not just between north and south, but between city and country, northside and southside, between them and us, whether you are one of them, or one of us. You won't know unless you go.
The people voted to open the Border at the turnstiles. The partitionist slaves to outdated ideology had been defeated ignominiously. There will be a 'beware of the dog' sign here and there, but the GAA are proud to open the People's Palace to all the children of our nation. North and south. Now we have decided to share this fusion of the spirit world, place and history with all the people of Ireland ... yes, all the people of Ireland Rugby hero Moss Keane , a GAA man to the core of his big heart, summed it up best when he said that "there is no border in an Irish dressing-room". Many GAA extremists have claimed to be mediums for Michael Hogan and others. I would argue men and women died not to keep people apart but to bring them together. Tomorrow we will be as united as Ireland has ever been.
Our great country has finally shaken off the shackles of the twin terrors of imperialism and extreme republicanism. We will walk along the enchanted way proud of our dual GAA and rugby heritage. And proud to be Irish in an Ireland where no boundary is set to the march of a sporting nation.
The ghosts will be everywhere. For me, a walk down Jones's Road is definitive proof there is life after death. But one disparate spirit will be absent from this holy street where old ghosts meet. The ghost of Ireland past has finally been put to rest.
Send him an email if you like the story.
billyjoekeane@eircom.net
Billy Keane
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As a 13 year old I played GAA in croker.....it was a shed then, but a huge one. The last time I was there was 1986 for a Simple Minds concert, it was still a shed then. But over the last twenty years a dramatic change has taken place in Ireland. In place of economic depression and rampant violent republicanism we now have prosperity and peace. Croker's development in terms of architecture and tolerance has mirrored that change. It is something wonderful to observe.
While I will not be there on Sunday, and how I would love to be, there will be tears in my eyes as I listen to the three anthems, yes even the blood curdling Marseillais.
Let us, as Irishmen, welcome those who dare to challenge us with the oval ball, wherever it may be.
On the game itself, it's heartbreaking that our greatest player will not be on the field to lead his team out, but I'm sure Mr O'Connell will be a more than able replacement.
Here's hoping for more edge of the seat stuff (we've become rather good at that recently) and rejoice in the beauty and power of this wonderful game. May the best team win.
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As an Irish ex-pat living in new zealand, to see "croker" open up its doors to forgien games is a historic occasion. To be honest I thought that there would be women priests before the GAA would open its doors!!Growing up in ireland played both hurling and Gaelic football ( and still do even in New Zealand!!), Croke Park was and still is my threatre of dreams. I can understand the people in the GAA who are very against Croke Park allowing rugby and soccer. This is a bitter pill for them to swallow, and their views have to be respected. To them this is scared ground, a ground steepled in history, both good and bad.
But the Ireland today is different, a much tolerent Ireland, opening and embracing change. Today to another chapter in Irish history where a barrier opens and a new dawn rises. I hope come Sunday evening that these people who have had their doubts will support this change and support Ireland in their quest for a historic Grand Slam.
Mise le meas
Sean O Laoch
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I spent many a fine Sunday afternoon at Croker watching Kildare lose throughout the seventies. Then, Ireland was still looking back at a history that seemed to be forefront in every Irishmans mind.
Its different today, we should never forget the past, however, we should not forget the future either.
If Padraig Pearse was alive today and stood high in the Hogan stand watching eighty thousand Irish people cheering a team representing all of Ireland ...he would say ..Job Done!
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Post 44, the tour guide is not telling the truth.
Hill 16 was retained as standing terraces because of the GAA hang-up on tradition of all types, in this case standing.
I work for Irish Rail, and we have no problem with allowing a new stand to be built there, obviously subject to work practices which will minimise impact on the line.
For example, we are working with Lansdowne Road in THEIR redevelopment, to make sure that the DART is not adversely affected. We aren't blocking it, we're working with the developers.
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The GAA is the only sectarian sport in N Ireland. Recently many of its grounds were used to commerate the "Hunger Strikers" who were IRA terrorists. Many of its grounds are named in "Honour" of IRA men. I wish some of their sponsors would exert pressure. I do welcome the changes made however small
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The GAA is the only sectarian sport in N Ireland. Recently many of its grounds were used to commerate the "Hunger Strikers" who were IRA terrorists. Many of its grounds are named in "Honour" of IRA men. I wish some of their sponsors would exert pressure. I do welcome the changes made however small
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The GAA is the only sectarian sport in N Ireland. Recently many of its grounds were used to commerate the "Hunger Strikers" who were IRA terrorists. Many of its grounds are named in "Honour" of IRA men. I wish some of their sponsors would exert pressure. I do welcome the changes made however small
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Well, thanks for the history lesson folks, both the biased and unbiased views.
Some of the views and attitudes on here sound rather threatening and a little bit scary.
I was considering flying over and perhaps watching it in a pub type place but I think I'll stay at home in Durham and watch it on the TV instead.
Anyway, lets hope for a good game and may the best side win
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Ross in post 18.... Unfortunately England hasn't yet got is's own anthem as we are not an independent nation. We do not have our own parliament or anthem unlike Scotland and Wales. We have been lumbered with the British anthem which is supposed to be the anthem for Great Britain and N.I. rather than England.
A minor point I know, but an important one nonetheless. I do not, and will not sing the British anthem as it is not relevant to my nation...
I hope that England's fans will one day sing an anthem of our own and that it be as uplifting as Eire's.
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the bigotry displayed on this blog beggars belief! sport should transcend all politics , get over it and move on ,it is a stadium for goodness sake made from bricks,mortar etc' the past has no relevance to the games being played in it ,
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Why would Peter Hain wait until ENGLAND play at Croke Park to lay a wreath and apologise for the shooting of Irish citizens in 1920, he could have carried out the pageant when the Scots or Welsh play there, it was after all a BRITISH exercise.
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In response to poster 155.
Why do assume that the history is purely related to "the English". It was a British/Irish issue not just English.
If there is a problem with the playing of the BRITISH national anthem, God save the Queen, then why not play an English NA, like Land of Hope and Glory or Jerusalem.
Apologies if this has been suggested before.
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Maybe there wouldnt be as many 'bigots' in Ireland if we werent referred to as part of the British isles, or Brian O Driscoll isnt referred to as the captain of the 'British Lions'
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The reason Hill 16 is still a terrace is because of the great athmosphere it provides at matches, usually when the Dubs play. If it were all seating it would ruin the fun and athmosphere. Some people should come along to a GAA match in Croker and see the great athmosphere and colour that generated. Or if thats too much check em out on youtube.com
As for the Hunger stikers getting commemoration, I have to say in this day and age theres no need for it in GAA grounds, whatever your opinions on said hunger strikers, they belong outside the realm of sport.
On another note, there was a lack of colour and noise in Croker on Sunday, was due to too many casual fans there for the occassion. I dont know but there should be a sea of green at every Ireland, and especially at home be heard above everything else.
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Andy. People do not call it the British Isles to annoy you, nor does decades of calling the British and Irish Lions 'the British Lions' end as easily as you would hope (should I as a Northern Irishman be insulted by that? - was Willy John a British Lion, an Irish Lion, or both. Would he really care?). Neither should act as an excuse for bigotry. In any case, how should I be expected to react each time I hear the Republic of Ireland football team being described as 'Ireland'? Would this be a reasonable excuse for me becoming a bigot? I hope not. Get some perspective FFS.
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Andy
If my education serves me right, technically Ireland IS part of the British Isles as the term "British Isles" is a geographical term not a political term.
I get equally annoyed when people refer to God Save the Queen as the "English" national anthem and is played before purely English team games. Another debate me thinks
Sorry to be a pedant!!
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Comment 161,162,163.....
One step at a time, I鈥檓 all for peace and progress and believe that sport should unite people but the day that people tell an unrelated community what they should or should not do in a sacred sanctuary that represents a cultures distinct individuality is the day you loose your identity....
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