Do we need nationalistic rivalry?
- 26 Jan 07, 06:00 PM
Glasgow - Are rugby fans more aggressive toward each other now? Especially this silly nonsense between small-minded Scots and equally small-minded English fans?
Do I sense that in some of the postings here, and do I see it and hear it at weekends?
Do we really dislike each other because someone, a long time ago, drew a line in the ground, called it a border, and persuaded us all that those across it were different?
When I was a kid I went to Murrayfield to watch the internationals. I think I can say, hand on heart, that I looked forward to the (then) Five Nations like an excited child anticipating a first bike for Christmas.
I bordered on the lunatic that way, and I still feel the same way with the a week hence. This time of year gives me one more reason to live. I love it. My heart, I swear, beats a little faster.
And I know you lot do as well, which is why you are reading a rugby blog.
So, aged 16 or so, I would cram on the train from Glasgow with maybe 10 of my friends. As it pulled in to Haymarket we would spill from it, joining the throng as this mass of people drifted, as one, along the main road west toward the stadium.
Inside Murrayfield we would gather. 鈥淢eet you under the clock鈥 having been the parting phrase to those leaving to answer mother nature鈥檚 call, as if thousands of people could actually meet under one clock.
And we would be with Welsh fans, or Irish fans, or English fans, or French fans, depending on the game. They would offer us sips from their hip flasks. If they scored we would pat our new friends on the back. They would do the same to us. The French had food; they had flaming live chickens sometimes.
The memories merge now, because by the end of these nights as we raced for the train home we had made new friends (whom we would never see again) and had a few beers in the process. I think I can safely say they were the best days of my life.
Now? Well, given devolution, I think the Scots have become more anti-English, and the English have become more anti-Scottish. And I don鈥檛 like it. It just doesn鈥檛 feel right. It feels so pointless.
I was at a Glasgow game with Ulster recently and the Ulster fans were singing 鈥淵ou鈥檙e just a small part of England鈥..鈥 and I thought: they are trying to insult us. What鈥檚 this about? I thought we were all rugby fans.
Isn鈥檛 the Six Nations a time to bring fans, in fact people, from different countries together so that they can share something they have in common, which is a great game, rather than rub each other up the wrong way just because although we live on the same bit of land there are a few lines drawn on it called borders that convince us we are different?
Or am I living in cloud cuckoo land?
Wales 27-18 England
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Totally agree with comments posted,we don`t want to go down the road of football. Part of my love of Rugby is being able to mix freely with other fans from other nations in a friendly atomsphere. Some light hearted banter is fine but insults to do with which team or country you support have no place in rugby crowds.
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I went to Twickenham with a Welsh mate of mine last 6 Nations. We didn't have tickets, but just went for the banter and a few beers in the pubs. We spent the day jokingly winding each other up and having a laugh. Obviously I was delighted when England won and he had to get the beers in. We got chatting to half the pub, welsh and english fans, and everyone was enjoying the fun and discussing the rugby. The whole day was great and even my Welsh counterpart cheered up after a couple of beers. We then got on the train to go to London when a group of lads, about 16 years old, asked me what I was doing with a Welsh loser and numerous other derogatory remarks. It made me feel ashamed that English fans could behave in such a way. I've always thought Rugby was one sport where these stupid boundaries and stereotypes didn't exist.
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cloud cuckoo land. definitely
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I aggree. I live in England and have all my life yet consider myself a Scot due to all my family being Scottish. I have been visiting Murrayfield for over 12 years now and get the same feeling every time as mentioned above walking down from the centre of Edinburgh following the massive crowd down the streets. In that time I have also noticed a slight but obvious change in attitudes and it's not needed especially in Rugby! I have many English friends and we all take the mic out of each other of course, but we would never go any further than that. I travel up from England for almost every Scotland rugby international and feel proud to wear my shirt and drive my car (with accompaning saltire sticker on rear) up the road passing all the traveling English fans and then enjoing their company for a few (or many) beers once in Edinburgh. This is the way it should be, after all we don't want to turn into these so called football "fans" now do we?!!
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Yeah, I remember standing at Murrayfield several years back, belting out the Marseillaise with some French fans we'd met. Have things changed that much though?
For example, I'm not convinced that devolution has driven a wedge between Scottish and English fans. I think when people become more confident in their own identity, they tend to get on better with other folk. Perhaps it's the uncertainty that's the problem - maybe independence is the way forward?
However I do feel the current climate of commercialism in sport tends to lay too much stress on confrontationalism. The media aspect is so all-pervasive that the characteristic fan vibe of individual sports is being lost in a homogeneous "supporter" image - a kind of manufactured tribalism that fails to reflect the richness of human nature and interaction.
But I sense the beginnings now of a move away from that - I think the more interactive nature of the internet over television is changing things, providing a more pluralistic environment where once again human character takes over from manufactured self-image. We'll see how this filters down into the sociology of the games themselves over the next few years.
Still looking forward to the Six Nations, that's for sure. C'mon the smallpartofengland lads!
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It is difficult to contradict someone who has given so much pleasure on the field of play ( and continues to do so through lineage). However, I feel that the opine of John Beattie leans towards nostalgia at too great an incline.
I am a fan of football and rugby( it is possible ) and recognise easily the differences in the demograhic of the crowd.I am all for sportsmanship and fraternity but at the same time have no issues with baiting. Mr Beattie knows all too well that it occurs on the pitch to a degree. So why not in the stands?
The important factor is not the attempt to ruffle feathers or irritate, but the where the line is drawn.
Over the years of avidly watching live sport, I have experienced the same levels of boorishness at football and rugby, it is just that the accents tend to differ!
I currently live overseas, but will be home the night before the Welsh game at Murrayfield. I hope indeed to make some " new friends ", but I shall not lose too much sleep if some entirely expectable jibes come our way.
To John Beattie, I send my best regards.
Sincerely
Alan Morton
( on the banks of a sunny Lake Geneva )
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rugby has always had the image of fans being able to mix and not riot like football. But people have to be careful when watching because we (the rugby supporters) don't want the football image. It's not wanted and not needed
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I may be biased but I think the English attitude has hardened towards the Scots and I put the blame largely on the latter. We have had to endure years of the Scottish attitude that they would support any team rather than England when the reverse attitude was very rare. Only last year, Andrew Murray voiced that same view during the World Cup and was surprised at the reaction he got. He had obviously forgotten that the vast majority of people cheering him on at Wimbledon had not travelled from across the border but were English. Scottish devolution, Scots running the country and with a Scot about to become PM, Scottish MPs voting on English issues have all led to an increase in the number of people who recognise themselves as English rather than British. I count myself as one of those. That said, I would hate to see the end of 'Great Britain' and for rugby to descend to the depths that football has plumbed. A healthy rivalry but above all respect has always been the rugby way and it cannot be lost.
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I may be biased but I think the English attitude has hardened towards the Scots and I put the blame largely on the latter. We have had to endure years of the Scottish attitude that they would support any team rather than England when the reverse attitude was very rare. Only last year, Andrew Murray voiced that same view during the World Cup and was surprised at the reaction he got. He had obviously forgotten that the vast majority of people cheering him on at Wimbledon had not travelled from across the border but were English. Scottish devolution, Scots running the country and with a Scot about to become PM, Scottish MPs voting on English issues have all led to an increase in the number of people who recognise themselves as English rather than British. I count myself as one of those. That said, I would hate to see the end of 'Great Britain' and for rugby to descend to the depths that football has plumbed. A healthy rivalry but above all respect has always been the rugby way and it cannot be lost.
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I really agree with this. I study in Aberdeen and while the Scots do like their banter, some of it does border on the spiteful and is just designed to pointlessly wind up us English.
I do agree though that we do bang on ALOT for ages whenever England wins something (the Ashes for example) and that does annoy alot of people and embarrass alot of English fans who just see the media and politicians jumping on the bandwagon!
On the other side though, there are loads of Scots who quite happily watch games with their English counterparts with lighthearted banter and that is excellent.
I mean, can't we just be friends? :)
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As a Englishman in Edinburgh I've never seen anything unpleasant in a rugby crowd and I hope it always stays that way.
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I agree with everything you say and if you needed reassurance no, you are not in cuckoo land.
I must say that with the arrival of the professional era I expected more football-like behaviour on the pitch but it saddens me to read about the incident in Glasgow. Let's hope it was a one-off as rugby, I think, is still a happy oasis of sporting behaviour.
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Are these the same Ulster fans that allegedly wound up a certain Mr T Brennan?
Lets get rid of this football style chanting and bring back the traditional singing.
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Cloud cuckoo land? No. But it is like trying to get your 7 year old twin boys to stop fighting - you know that they should cherish each other but instead they choose to knock lumps out of each other.
I'm a genuine home nations "mongrel" (one grandparent from each of Scotland, England, Wales and Ireland) and also thoroughly look forward to the Six Nations tournament. It does sadden me to see and hear the insults and stereotyping thrown backwards and forwards, particularly when we all live together on two chunks of rock.
So folks, let's leave the name calling to the kids in the playground, and get on with watching one of the best rugby competitions in the world.
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I agree with the sentiment but I don't agree that things are that bad. I don't know what games you have been going to recently but they seem as friendly as ever to me- with fans from all sides mixing freely in exchange of banter, singing of songs, swapping of hip flasks and I've even heard of getting bought a drink or 2 from a few tight-fisted scots!!! Rugby support is completely different from football in that respect, and always will be. As for the Ulster fans- I think that the perceived "insult" should be taken in the manner in which it was handed out- with a huge barrell of salt, a cheeky grin, and maybe a swig of bushmills...
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I'm a dyed in the wool England fan and have been since the late 70's, I have the Rose tattooed on my arm (alcohol and the 5 Nations have a lot to answer for!) and I agree whole heartedly, my first away game was in the early 90's at Murrayfield and it was an amazing experience. I met some brilliant rugby fans, English, Scotish and even a Russian international 2nd row(?) who I took a photo for under the posts after the game. I then enjoyed a great night out around the town with friendly banter and big grins from both sides, there was a feeling of a common bond, this can't be lost to the tribalism of football or the current tide of devolution in politics. 5 Nations or 6 Nations or umpteen Nations doesn't matter the brotherhood of rugby must survive. It shouldn't change the fact I want England to win every time they play and if they don't why should I hate the team who beat them and their supporters? Can we have a respectful silence for national Anthems and for goal kickers too? Please!
Matt
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Hi John,
Rob from 成人快手 Sport in London here.
As I said in my bio on the blog, one of my fondest rugby memories is the party in the Twickenham pubs after the 1999 World Cup semi-final between France and New Zealand.
For those who don't know, France looked down and out before staging a remarkable comeback. And the "craic that night was something else.
There were little pockets of Frenchmen in ecstacy, belting out rounds of the Marseillaise every five minutes; there were Kiwis downing their sorrows but happy to admit it had been a spectacular game; and there was a cocktail of British and Irish just revelling in the atmosphere.
Soon, we were drinking as one homogenous mass and all singing the Marseillaise together in a celebration of rugby.
Work next day was a struggle though.
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Totally agree with all said, the game is so more important than any ridiculous fans. Rugby fans from all over the world are of the same ilk, all take a drink and all have had some form of education. Some fotball followers tend to have skipped school and were educated on the street therefore they have street manners and sensibilities. This was never more apparent than when I went to watch England V Canada during Englands time at Wembley stadium. My self and a few buddies left Portsmouth at 0900 with a carrier bag of beer and by 1500 we were merry at least. At our seats trying to sober up we became aware of some people arguing over who was in the right seats. The occupiers were standard rugby fans and the challengers were football fans who saw England + wembley and booked two tickets. The football fans were Chavs ten years ahead of their time and to be honest needed a good kicking, myself and my friends decided silently that these chimps were not going to ruin this 60year old's day and provided these chimps some advice as to help their situation. A steward arrived and lo and behold the chimps could not read, they were at the wrong end and skulked off bemoaning yuppy rugby fans. This says it all for me Rugby is the greatest team game played by decent people, and supported by all sorts with one common feature...an education.
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Please don't let Rugby go down the same route as football, it would completely spoil the game. Crowd trouble is the last thing rugby wants.
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I disagree that young people have less respect for opposing fans. Im 18 and wheter Ireland play France, england, Italy or whoever there is always great banter between the fans. Im a munster fan and after the leicester game last week the munster fans were big enough to appreciate good rugby and great fans on behalf of leicester.
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Please don't let Rugby go down the same route as football, it would completely spoil the game. Crowd trouble is the last thing rugby wants.
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It appears to be the sign of the times - the game is growing in popularity and with that, it seems to be attracting a small number of undesirables. We've seen this in cricket in the past 10 years haven't we. I am a recent convert to rugby (from football), for this reason alone. I have enjoyed the hassle free afternoons watching top-flight sport in Bristol. I will say, that we shouldn't blame it all on football fans.... There was a chap (and his family) in his mid 50's stood next to me recently who was clearly trying to wind up the home crowd. He quietened down when Bristol scored a last minute drop goal! These bigger crowds are great.... but respect the spirit of the game.
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As a Welshmen I think there is antipathy towards English rugby for being "arrogant" (the Will Carling era) and the "Battle of Cardiff" when they came to punch the Welsh off the pitch. I love England and English club rugby but the national team has started attracting some football-fan types.
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I totally agree that Rugby should continue being the greatest spectator sport, and team sport this world has ever known. But I have seen a HUGE amount of issues with individuals from certain countries feeling they can step over the line of ribbing and straight into insults. I lived as an expatriate for a while and mixed freely with all nationalities within the community. But when Football/Rugby was on TV the friendly jibes died quickly. Now the football jibes were at times a two-way thing within the community but at Rugby it was the Football followers that kept throwing around insults. It is pathetic and an embarrassment to these Islands, as I'm not aware of other areas of the world that have similar issues. In conclusion we must keep the stadium mixed and enjoy each other鈥檚 company watching the best sport in the world. Good luck to all countries in the 6 Nations especially the boy's in White!
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Ulster supporters on the road, I am a keen Ulster supporter but am working overseas and haven't been to Ravenhill in a year or two, I'm disappointed by the stories in the press about the Toulouse incident and the one mentioned above, while agreeing that what TB decided to do was dispicable and no excuse should be acceptable, mother brother daughter or wife insults included, i am disappointed that the normal rubgy banter seems to have spiraled to rather alarming lows, TB & GT are known as firey at the best of times but what happened off the pitch reflects on supporters and players alike. I don't imagine that we are going to be in need of segregation anytime soon but rugby is probably generating a little more diverse support than in the past and there are probably a lot more kids attending games and it would be better if we as supporters showed generally a little more respect for the players and followers of a passionate, hard and great game.
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I love the sporting banter between our nations and am tolerant of those who dish out comical insults, so long as they are willing to tolerate a comeback.
However, I'd still say I'm Welsh before I'm British and consider myself a Celt before a Brit. This is how it has always been and always will be, it's just a question of how the next generation of supporters will take to this logic.
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I know many a Scot who would say "I like Englishmen one on one but not when they get together." and some English vice versa. I dont know where that sentiment comes from, as I often find groups of both that I would choose to socialize with. I think the Scottish English tension is a case of familiarity breeding contempt, and that gets voiced on occassions.
Perhaps Rugby is going some way toward football like prejudice, but I know that the vast majority of fans still just enjoy a good time with one another.
During the last CC match, I wound up across the aisle, quite by chance, from and English friend of mine totally decked out in his St. George's cross and face paint. Needless to say we bantered good naturedly for 80 mins, but at the end he wished me well and congratualted me for the win. We may have been rooting against one another's team, but we never rooted against one another.
Later on I sang late into the night with a group of Englishmen and can hardly remember a better time.
Is prejudice on the rise? Almost certainly, but a good time can still be had by all, I know it for true.
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As an Englishman living in Scotland, I appreciate how deep feelings of national pride can run, having been on the end of a fair few remarks over the last 9 years. Nearly all in jest, however, and I have no problem with that.
The thing that I love about rugby, as much as the game itself, is that the rampant and violent tribalism of football has not reached the stands.
Witness my experience at Murrayfield in 2003. I had obtained my tickets through the SRU but myself and my mate were there to support Wales (it's a family thing!). We were in a block of Scottish fans and yet we had a great time. The guy next to me raised a quizzical eyebrow at one point and enquired where I had got my ticket but the atmosphere was one of friendly rivalry.
The following year I was back, supporting Scotland against France.
What I never want to see is segregation of rugby crowds. The fact that you are cheek by jowl with the opposing supporters adds hugely to the overall fun and enjoyment. If this was to change, it would be a sorry time for a game that, even in the professional era, is still retaining the sportsmanship and rejecting the type of gamemanship and histrionics that leave me with little interest in football.
Long may rugby remain more a sport and less a business!
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Do you really think you have a monopoly on these attitudes?! Sorry to bring you out of ur shell, but this happens worldwide (BUT not assault on a fan!!) I've been to MANY matches,here in Aust. and overseas and NEVER,ever had bad experience. ?Ever tried to enter a S.African or N.Zealand or Twickenham (with 'my flag') unscathed..? BUT always in jovial banter and bit of sledging, NEVER abusive. The same happens after a match -much hand-shaking, or banter, win or lose- and drinks together afterwards. Brennan has now set a precedent for Rugby games (one will be terrified that the pat-on-the-back may well be a PUNCH!!) I've not ever known a player to 'warm up' DELIBERATELY in front of oppositions fans/supporters. I feel he's at end of career,didn't care, and should leave in the disgrace he deserves.
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French, Scots, Welsh and Irish have always had good reason to hate the English and have chosen Rugby as a means to get their own back.
Unfortunately from 2000-2003 the English stopped playing the game and started winning.
Good riddance to Clive Woodward.
Now things are back to normal we can all have fun and drink in the bar afterwards.
Long may it continue.
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The example used of the Ulster fans taking the mickey is ironic. Ulster fans support Ireland, and go to every home match to support 'their' team in Dublin and stand respectfully for the (Southern) Irish national anthem under a Southern Irish flag. They have done since partition. The reason for the Southern anthem being played according to the IRFU is to show respect for the 'host' nation. Now, in September Ireland will for the first time in decades play at ravenhill in Belfast. The decision has been taken by the IRFU not to have any national anthem for that one.I think the writer should remember this when he decides to highlight Ulster fans (what a surprise)for lack of tolerance. Perhaps the writer would like to suggest the IRFU showing a bit of respect for their British supporters up North?
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I think it is indicative of modern life, media, press, things sensationlised beyond belief, etc. Look at 成人快手 Radio 5 Live which tries hard to whip everyone up into a frenzy on any issue.
That Said, i do think the Scots have something to answer here. For years, a good many Scots have been English bashing and slagging to anyone and everyone who would listen. The English are just a little tired of being portrayed like this and sadly are 'fighting' back with our own idiotic crap now. A group of pals and I (English and Welsh) went to Murryfield last Six Nations to see England lose to a very good Scottish team full of the best passion etc. Sadly, we all came away thinking the banter towards the English was with real venom and pretty unpleasant. And we'll hairy arsed late 30 somethings i.e not easily offended.
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Wish I could say this was a new phenomenon in rugby but there's always been a small pocket behaving like idiots and fighting or goading, especially when the beer has been flowing for a while, just very rarely in the grounds themselves.
The English rugby team have regularly been given a shameful "welcome" in Wales with the team bus being surrounded by local fans calling them out for a fight and such like. I doubt it's isolated to the English team or to Wales, although I heard it was worse there than anywhere else - the irritation and anger the Welsh have towards the English is up there with the best of them! And you know, so what? Sticks and stones and all that.
Trouble in the crowds is still rare, rugby matches are still very welcoming and great spirited events and the teams knock each other around on the pitch then drink together after. It's the bloomin' trains, roads and car parks that depress me!
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I agree: there is a creeping increase in the degree of nastiness, and there does seem to be a general desire to 'hate the English'. Doesn't bother me, and maybe I say that because the most vocal Scots/Welsh/Irish/SH fans are the nutters who we hear most from, as opposed to the silent/decent majority - but it's definitely there for this fan.
Witness lines like "As a Welshmen I think there is antipathy towards English rugby for being "arrogant" (the Will Carling era) and the "Battle of Cardiff" when they came to punch the Welsh off the pitch." Well I grew up in the 70s when Welsh rugby was totally dominant, horribly aggressive - and unbelievably arrogant... So it's a little difficult to have those points made against the English by a Welsh fan...
Personal absolute hate? Nothing to do with nationalities, but the booing during a place kick. Such so-called 'fans' have the sporting instincts of a mass murderer, and should be banned for life - that'll sort 'em.
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Two years ago I was in Wellington (racing round the world with the Global Challenge). My crew went to the international sevens tournament. The Kiwi hosts were delightfully non PC, there was gallons of drink about, the stadium was full and everyone had a great time without any problem. I was priviledged to have Sean Fitzpatrick help with our team builing preparation. He explained that losing wasn't an option but there was never any question of having respect for the opposition and being fair, if a bit hard, towards them! The co-operation and friendship between rugby players, fans, supporters and wives who put up with us even if they don't want to join in, should all resist any attempt to allow the 'soccer culture' to encroach on our sport at any level.
Long may the supporters be mixed up in any stadium without a problem and long may we all be prepared to appreciate good rugby, even if the team we support isn't providing it!
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I'm British, born in England, Mothers father was a 6"4,24 stone Scottish RSM in the Royal Artillery, my late fathers grandfather was an Irish prize fighter, many of my years were spent in the humbling presence of the Black Mountains in Wales and how my blood stirs when the chosen from all home nations sound the Lion's Roar and tears of pride always well in the eye when you see English, Irish, Scottish and Welsh fans singing flower of Scotland or some such national theme. This is something that only would ever happen in the beautiful game of Rubgy. Let us please, never allow this to become just a memory of how it used to be!
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I agree. Rugby, the game was always the game of the intelligent parts of society and is now becoming segregated like football.
It will be a sad day when crowd disturbances overshadow a good game of the beautiful art of team war.
The whole point of the game, ("...for thugs played by gentlemen...") is that the argument takes place on the field, nowhere else.
The media have the best outlet for promoting fan harmony. The pre-match TV build up is the best opportunity to show positive images and reject negative ones.
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I am in total agreement with all that the original author stated. My memories are identical. As a student in the 50's, I met a Welsh man on Princes Street in Edinburgh and he was still covered in a fine layer of coal. His mates had dragged him on to the bus at the coal face because they had an empty seat. They had several kegs of beer on the bus and they had stopped at a pub in the scottish borders for lunch. They were feeling no pain. My father once said to me that rugby was a hooligans game played by gentlemen while soccer was a gentlemen's game played by hooligans
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In regard to Simon Glass comments (no 8/9):- Firstly Andy Murrays comments were said in jest and the Press blew them out of proportion.
2. The reason that Scots dont wont you to win is not because of your fans, its because when you do win smething major we never hear the end of it. Your commentators constantly go on about it even when england are not playing (take germany V ecuador in the football world cup, where 1966 was constantly bleated about). In rugby hey go on about how england are the worlds best when in truth they did not deserve to win it. (not digging just pointing out) The majority of Scots want England to do well.
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One of the reasons why there may have been an increase in nationalism surrounding the 6N maybe something to do with devolution.It may also be because England had a decade or so of dominance culminating in winning the world cup. Previously England had got their comeuppance on a far more regular basis and there is is now a revelling in our demise-for the moment!
As for Ulster (vis a vis the leading article of the blog and Trevor Brennan) I don't know this but it sounds like an echo of the political atmosphere in Ulster. Isn't that a little part or Ireland? Oops!
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I fly 5000 miles every year to watch a game at Murrayfield, and don't see any noticeable change in attitude.
Last year went to the Calcutta Cup, and the English lads in the bar afterwards, feeling the need for a sing song, noticeably avoided any Rugby songs, but other than that, the "craic" was as normal.
One thing I would echo though is that I'd love to see more respect for national anthems (I hate to hear the small number of people at Murrayfield whistling during God Save The Queen... plain disrepectful of the other team's anthem!), and I really can't stand people being anything other than silent when anyone kicks for goal. Having respect for others in a sporting competition isn't old fashioned, good manners don't go out of style.
Coming over for the Irish game, and, as always, greatly looking forward to it... I just wish we Scots had anything remotely as rousing as "Molly Malone" to sing... singing that in amongst a crowd of Irish at Landsdowne Road is (was, now that ground is gone) one of those unique experience that the lack of segregation in Rugby crows brings.
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I totally agree with you!!
I am a Welshman, and the problem is the english. There has always been good old banter, and enjoyable either way... The problem is narrow headed people & old head pundits like Dewi Morris. People watch tv and see him failing to admit defeat...I thought England winning the world cup was a good thing. It was great for the Northern hemosphere won, but since then..the 'england pig headedness' came through and now you have a 'Football' atmosphere in the rugby grounds. Its not so much us, the 成人快手 Celtic Nations or the french. If they didnt have or use the smug attitude they always do when they win, there wouldnt be a problem. And now they are losing, there is always the excuse, 'Oh...we didnt do this or that'. Just admit that your not good enough...other teams Such as Wales, Ireland are better or played better than you on the day. (GOOG SPORTMANSHIP).
Im starting to believe that in the end..History is everything and we are CELTS fighting the Anglo-Saxons, but on a different battlefield. I dont want the rugby atmosphere to change, but English attitude always comes through in the end. So, its Celts against our common enemy, and maybe after we beat them like the good old days..they might wind their necks in and be silent!!
Regards.
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So "the French, Scots, Welsh and Irish have always had good reason to hate the English and have chosen Rugby as a means to get their own back".This one comment encapsulates everything that is so sad about what is happening in Rugby Football. Over the last few years it has become increasingly obvious to me that a sizeable majority of Scottish supporters in particular show an open hatred (not just dislike) for everything English. In daring to win the Rugby World Cup, we "arrogant" English have aggravated things even further. Who can blame England supporters for eventually getting tired of this racist vitriol and fighting back. I look forward to Twickenham with bated breath!
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Agree wholeheartedly John Beattie.
From a "south of the border" point of view I'd say that the overt nationalism (Scots and Welsh) often shown in media news clips AND in 606 rugby forum does little to endear us to our Celtic neighbours.
I'll quote one Scot fan who said that Jonny Wilkinson's return to the England side was eagerly welcomed as "our lads will be queueing to be the one who killed Jonny Wilkinson".
Another saying that he was sure Scots fans were eagerly anticipating next week's Twickenham match against "the numpties in white shirts".
Despite imbecilic comments like that though - I still believe our much loved sport is in the main so decently supported as to be almost unreal in todays ill-disciplined world.
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Not cloud cuckooland, I hope. As a then Australian resident Englishman, amongst my many magnificent memories of RWC 2003 was the Quarter Final in Brisbane. The crowds were funnelled into the stadium down Caxton Street, which is lined by two-storied pubs and restaurants. The atmosphere pre-game was electric, with Welsh in the top story exchanging chants with the English in the street and lower story - Australian friends of mine were stunned by the vloume and the gladatorial nature of it. Not being used to it, they thought trouble in the air. Inside, Shane Williams scored to put Wales infront - a try so breathtaking, all the English were on their feet. Outside that night, and next morning, the air was full of English "bad luck, bloody close" and Welsh "good luck for the semi" to us. Back in Sydney for the semi and the final, Welsh, Irish and French (in the final) were (mainly) actually supporting England or at least neutral - unprecedented and heartwarming.
Sad to say that the many English who supported Scotland vocally against Australia the night before our quarter with England heard not one word of support in return and nothing other desperation to see England lose the final - even sadder, the Scots were far more bitter than the Australians when we won.
So not cloud cuckooland, so long as the Scots come to the party. There is no anti-Scotish feeling in England - there is plenty of anti-anti-English feeling.
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I agree with a lot of what it said here, but I must say that I dont agree with what was said about Ulster in the peice.
Yes they chanted that we were only a wee peice of England, but it was sung with humour.... as a Scots man i would like to think that we can work out what is humour and what is offencive. I have to sympathise further with those Ulster supporters caught up in the dark events in Tolouse. the traveling support that comes over with Ulster is in my opinion are up there with the much talked about muster supporters.
overall i still feel that the majority of people are welcomign to opposition supporters and long may it continue
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I am a Scot living in Sweden. I think there is simpley something special about beating England (is really is the game of the Six Nations for me). I think this also is true for the other home nations too. I also have English friends and there is always banter but always in a friendly context. The great thing about rugby is that is doesn't have the football mentality. I also think that because many of the fans play in a rugby club they all have respect for what these guys give on the field English or Scottish. This year I'll be sampling the English hospitality and the heart IS beating faster already!!
Cheers
Steve
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Well, that was almost verging on a political statement there! Devolution probably has increased an anti-English feeling, but it's hardly a huge problem. I have an English accent, because I'm a Scot who was born in Luton and lived there for 12 years. Since I moved back to Scotland 2 years ago I've never had any problem with it, in fact I am truely grateful for the acceptance I have received since moving back here. I don't think there is a huge problem. I'll be going to the Scotland home games and I'll have a great time with the Welsh, Irish and Italians and won't think twice and neither will they! I don't know what it was like back in your day, but hey, I know how to enjoy mine! England fans? Well, I think they sometimes bring it on themselves. Most of my friends support England, and the stuff they come out with sometimes is quite frankly painful to listen to. It's an arrogance that any nation would pick up after winning the World-Cup, even Scotland would! I think Scottish and English rivalry is a thing of beauty. It has life, it breaths. It gives Scotland a reason to compete and England a reason to moan. Let's not make a big deal of the small-minded people who make more of it than there is. I should point out that I'm a member of the SNP, I just don't see a huge problem with the rivalry. Scotland should be proud of the friendship we have with England, and vice versa. There shouldn't be anymore made of it than that, otherwise the small minded folk would have won!
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Going to games in the past was just like in the article. We would go in a group of university friends and have a great day out. I have particularly fond memories of French fans serenading our girls. And all the fans had fun together. I don't get the chance to go to games these days - just watch them on TV, despite the commentaries. I do hope the atmosphere hasn't changed. Rugby internationals and their fans were one of the better parts of life. Win or lose, it was just great fun.
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Over many years of travelling to all the various countries to watch and play this wonderful game (sadly not Italy YET, but soon) I have had the pleasure to share hip flasks, bar bills and taxis with the locals, and long may it continue. England, it grieves me to say, are guilty of triumphalism on too many occasions, as has already been mentioned previously, so media and politicians can get column inches filled. On Saturday next in the Cabbage Patch early doors, will be breached, and it will start all over again .Thank heavens.
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There is no place for the small minded bigots in any rugby crowd, Brilliant atmospheres, passion for your Country, respect for all fans, celebrate the occassion (mine's a Guiness)
Bring on the six nations and c'mon Wales
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John
You have lost the plot totally. This was obviously a humorous wind up. Would it not be nice if the Glasgow spectators (i won't call them supporters) chanted something... anything? You need to get a handle on Ulster humour. Yes it is annoying when the away support embarrass the home spectators with their fervour.We need more noise and atmosphere not less.By the way i am an Ulsterman BUT involved in scottish rugby since 1975.
Good luck to John junior ... wonderful talent.. it's in the genes!
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I hope this blog gets the publicitiy it deserves and the mindless few withdraw form the edge of stupidity. I go to Scotland from Cardif every 2 years and have a FANTASTIC time. Without any adversary or 'Old Foe' there would be no point in competition of any sort. It's traditional for the Celtic Nations to 'hate' the English but in the pubs etc after the banter belies that facade. Though born In Cardiff I claim Irish, Scottish and Italian ancestry and will wear the shirt of the day depending on the game - it's just a wind up. I'm up in Scotland in a few weeks with my NZ 2007 RWC Champions shirt sat next to a mate in a Red Dragon suit. Just sit back and enjoy the occasion for what it is - fun!
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As a football fan , I am not surprised at this development. If you continue to
take pride in your drinking, with bars
in stadia being open during matches, then you will get trouble. Players have also become motor-mouths, with back pages in the week preceding matches containing silly and puerile jibes.
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Do we need nationalistic rivalry?
Of course we do. Its great fun, always has been, The above article brought back, my own childhood.
Aside from the inevitable professional nature, of the modern game, ie. money, I believe the culture of Man of the Match, is alien to the traditional ethos, of a team sport and detrimental as an example to youth, as such.
The other point I would like to make is, that we need not, go the road of elitism and regard our particular sport as superior. Thats the problem with religon isn't it ?
Anyway , great article and contributions, long may this rivalry continue with respect.
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I so aree with the comments about the over reaction of England when the slightest hint of success seems possible.
I am English and support all things good in sport....but the open topped bus around london with a very lucky England team made me very slghtly sick after the asshes win(got their own back with interest)
We won the world cup in rugger......to many big heads.no follow up plan....where are we now no-where
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An excellent blog, full of intelligent comment - what a change from the badly spelt, abusive, profane stuff that we see elsewhere. In my younger, fitter days I used to referee football and rugby - guess which I preferred to do? The one where the players called you 'sir' and respectfully asked for clarification of a decision, not the one where foul-and-abusive was the norm, and the players would often question your eyesight, ancestry and parentage. I lived in Leicester for nearly 30 years, and still support the Tigers, but whenever I attended a match at Welford Road, the only police presence needed to control 16,000 fans were half-a-dozen officers at most, and perhaps a dog: segregation of spectators was unheard of. For Leicester City home games, there would be hundreds of cops on duty, trying to keep the warring factions apart. 'Respect' is a forgotten word in our 21st century society - the only other place I see it these days, apart from in rugby union, is in the NFL in the USA - the Bears and Colts fans at the SuperBowl remind me very much of the Tigers and Bath fans at Welford Road.
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I'm a Scot living in Wales. I have been to many a Wales vs Scotland match in Cardiff and all I can say is that the Welsh fans have always been very friendly and although they gave the usual banter there has always been a amazing friendly atmosphere. As for the football style fans that are going to rugby games I think there is no room for them in rugby and they're insults!
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I'm a 19 year old Welshman, and i admit i would be prefer any team to win the 6 nations as long as it's not england. But it's because of the hype and arrogance of the team and media rather than actual negative feelings towards english people.. Also, i saw Wales play against England in Cardiff in both football and rugby and it was fascinating to see and experience the difference in atmospheres.
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Great article. One of the things that has always appealed to me about rugby is how enlightened the fans are in general. Just look at the 成人快手 blogs and in general they are informed and relatively unbiased.
However, I have been making the point for some time now that one of the things I dislike about the small minded Scots, Welsh and Irish football fans that used sport to further their anti English, bigotry/jealousy/inferiority complex, or what ever it is that leads them to support "any team that plays against England", is that some point in the future certain sections of the English will reciprocate. As an Englishman I desperately didn't want to see people from my country demonstrate such a small minded attitude. But I am afraid, like Simon, I think the chickens have come home to roost and we are seeing it in certain sections of society but lets hope the "enlightened" rugby fraternity don't go down that route.
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Rugby is a sport where people come together, it's ridiculous that since the game has turned professional, you get the few idiots in that think rugby fans should be like football fans. This was clear to see at twickenham for the 1st england/south africa test where a south african fan was getting insulted by a group of english fans. I personally think it's all these rugby converts after the '03 world cup win. The true rugby fans love the camaradrie with the opposition supporters.
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I have a season ticket for Reading and London Irish so I love football and rugby. Football is the way it is and I still love going to the games but I watch rugby not only for the game but so I can have a laugh with opposition fans and enjoy a bit of banter without the need for insulting one another, its one of the things that makes the game special. I have been to twickenham and everyone enjoys each other's company and congratulates the winner at the end and has a few beers together. If rugby crowds get like football crowds, part of what makes the game great will have died.
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I'm a Welshman living down the road from Twickenham in Richmond.
I've had a few run ins with English fans who have made some quite tasteful remarks when I've been out supporting Welsh teams and Wales.
On the other hand I've been in Cardiff and I've seen Welsh fans having a go at English fans.
What I'm saying is, is that there are berks on both sides. I'm sure this has sadly always been the case.
Let's ignore these clowns and celebrate what's the best rugby tournament in the world. And I include the World Cup in that.
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I'm a German Rugby fan and player from Karlsruhe. During the football WC after the defeat to Italy in the semi finals I saw German football fans heavily insulting two Italian girls. While you can tell by the amount of policemen at the train station and in the city, that Karlsruher Sport Club is obviously playing a homematch, the greatest astonishment was shown by some of my football enjoying friends, when I showed a Rugby game to them. They could hardly believe, that there were no separated fan blocks and the spectators remained respectfully silent, when the opposing side performed a kick to the posts. This made me proud of playing a sport widely unnoticed here in Germany. Please be aware that one single foul egg can ruin the whole cake, as a German proverb states. I disagree to Mr. Keates' "The media have the best outlet for promoting fan harmony. The pre-match TV build up is the best opportunity to show positive images and reject negative ones." You just can't cover misbehaviour by not showing it. You have to deal accordingly with it, maybe by telling that bad manners causes damage not only to the sports but to the ostensibly supported nation too. As great Rugby nations, being Scottish, English, Welsh or Irish, you have to give a sort of example to the world. Nationalism never turned out to be useful for peoples. My grandfather (born in 1902) really believed the French being our eternal enemy by heritage (Erbfeind), because he learned such crap in school. It is sad to see, that a century has passed since and yet we hadn't become world citizens.
P.S. Allez les Bleus! ;-)
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I watched Stade Francais vs Biarritz when they had a 80,000 strong crowd record at Stade de France. They made a big show of it: singers, fireworks, jugglers, pom-pom girls, etc. Not everyone's taste but fair enough.
I ended up sitting just below a huge crowd of BO supporters with the flag and music. It was great until some bunch of teenageers started to chant for Paris and be rude to the Biarritz fans. They sounded more like PSG fans than SF fans.. The atmosphere changed quickly..
I guess that's the ransom for success. Big show, pom-pom girls, but bad behaviour as well.
So I call upon every rugby fan to show the right example and 'police' his/her area in the stands to make sure everyone behaves and enjoys the game as it should to be enjoyed..
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100% in agreement with the virtualy common view. I would also say that I have never (rarely) seen the ugly side of it amongst supporters. There will always be idiots but if the rest of us behave normally, we can see them off! The Six Nations is a fantastic tournament that allows us all to indulge in a degree (maybe a high degree) of passionate/biased/one-eyed support for one team or another. That should be the end of it. Those of us who have actually played the game will remember many occasions where the same passion, displayed on the pitch, may often have resulted in "a bit of physical over-exertion", but, in my recollection, always followed by the friendly handshake, hug and shared round of beer. That, amateur or professional, sixth XV or Six Nations, remains the essence of the world's greatest team game and specator sport. Lose that - on the field, in the stands, on the terraces (alas - no more), in the pub or club - and we've lost it all. Think of Munster supporters at Thomond Park, last weekend, rising to salute Leicester, defeating their local heroes and thus ending the proudest record in European Rugby. So celebrate the Six Nations, celebrate Rugby, enjoy it, sing if you win and even louder if you lose - but, above all Love Rugby!!
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I don't think this is anything new, I can remember watching Scotland v England in Glasgow pubs ten years ago and being abused to the point of hatred by a good few Scottish idiots.
Sport is often jumped upon as the last expression of nationalism and especially in the case of England v Scotland in any sport, is used to articulate old grievances.
I think it is true that the English care less about the Scots than the Scots do about the English, and that's reflected in a far few comments here. Let's not dress it up, what goes on at Scotland v England games in the name of banter is often pure racism.
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Having grown up in Ulster and studied in Scotland I think that Mr Beattie is being a wee bit precious re his comments on Ulster supporters. Anyone who has been to Ravenhill on a Friday night will appreciate the 'banter'and the spirit in which it is intended. I am surprised Mr Beattie could make out the words the Ulster fans were singing as their tongues would have been jammed in their cheeks!
Rugby is the most social game in the world and will always remain so. Let's not bring sensitive PC discussion to the table. Let the banter and the 'craic' continue!
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I like many of the others who have commented here would like to think that the comrade ship of rugby players/fans the world over would outweigh the rivalry. yes there is banter but we can only hope that this never goes the same way as that round ball game and all that goes with it!
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I am an Australian living in Sydney and I am worried about our great game. I am a confirmed rugby tragic. In my day I have played at a reasonably high level, represented my state at junior level, played in different countries on 4 continents ( have toothbrush will travel) coached seniors and juniors and won some grand finals and I can honestly say that if more people in the world played rugby there would be less strife and more good will. It is the most unigue and harmonious sport on the planet.
I have been to 4 of the five world cups and I can still dine out on the stories. Big boofy blokes, talking to big boofy blokes about big boofy bloke things. Ah! What larks!Discussing the Intricacies of this play or that move or so and so's outrageous side step etc. Important things.
No matter what country / city you go to , as soon as you hook up with the rugby crowd you run into all the personalities from home. There is always a Jono, a smithy, a jacko or what ever. A couple of drinks and its like you never left home, where ever that is.
Then of couse there is all the girls that get attracted to these knock about rugby buggers... ahh! memories, enough to warm the cockles of an old mans heart.
Rugby people are the best people on the planet. Lets keep it that way. We should all be custodians of the game.
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A small point, but one I hope that is well made.
I too was at the Glasgow V Ulster match, and as I heard it (and I was beside the bulk of Ulster supporters) the chant was 'You're just a suburb of Edinburgh'.
Have we all had sense of humour by-passes?
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I think there has always been a great bit of banter between all the nations involved, that is what makes this the great tournament that it is.
Hope the banter stays as banter.
Would jsut like to comment on Ed's post. I know many Ulster fans that do go to Ireland games, but I know just as many Ulster fans who consider Ulster as their home nation& don't bother with Ireland. As for having a dig at the IRFU, Amhran na bhFiann is the Irish National anthem& by right should be played at all whole games just as any other nation would.
If your going to have a dig at the IRFU maybe you should have a close look at the reasons why fans such as myself stay away from Ravenhill. The fact that the team is hailed as a N.Ireland team& not a 9 county Irish province& the carrying by many fans at the games of the "Northern Ireland Flag" a widely recognised loyalist symbol.
The majority of Ulster Fans behave excellently& show how rugby fans should behave. As for considering Scotland being a small part of England... Ironic?
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My goodness, this is a thread that could run and run John.....
Just a quick point to poster #9 about his comment on Andy Murray. He was asked about why he made such an inflammatory remark. He explained that a reporter at a press conference made a joke about wheter he would be supporting Scotland in the World Cup last summer? He also criticised Murray's tennis at Wimbledon which does seem a bit harsh. Anyway, Andy Murray replied 'I will support anyone against England' as a rebuke of this guy. Naive yes. Nationalistic hardly.
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It has been 35 years since I have been to Cardiff to watch an international. So it is with huge excitement that I find myself knowing I'll be at the Wales v England game on March 17.
Living in Canada since 1974, I do get down to the local pub on game day (early morning) and share "beers and banter" with opposing fans, mostly Irish, Scots, English and Welsh expats who all still have that sense of national pride when their team plays. Never have I experienced anything close to abusive, just the same sorts of remarks I gave out (and took) 35 years ago.
I'm expecting the same come March 17 or am I living in cloud cuckoo land?
I hope not!!!!!
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I'm an Englishman who's lived in Wales for 27 years.When England play any other team the Welsh will cheer for the other side whoever they are.I believe the Scots and Irish do too.Now before all the replies testify that's it's so much banter and good natured-don't believe it for one minute.During the last world cup one of my patients announced that Australia had just scored against England which was then greeted with loud cheers!
My Pharmacy is in the Welsh valleys.
There is still a great and pernicious dislike for the English here in spite of the fact that without English money and taxes Wales would have an economy similar to Latvia.Just jesting Dai!
Bora Da.
FMJ
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I'm from Northumberland and when Scotland, Ireland or Wales were playing I gave them my backing without really thinking about it. Then I went to Uni in Scotland for four years and was shocked at the level of hatred of the English. In particular the Irish who made up a large part of the uni. Having said that I went to last years game at Murrayfield wearing an England top and the only abuse I suffered was light hearted. I still want Scotland to do well but the Irish are another matter!! I also refuse to shove my chariots where they tell me to!! Its all fun and games and would hate it if crowds were seperated like football.
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rugby fans aren't aggresive, hell i'm a new zealander and i often go to games being played at Twickenham and sit next to England supporters. Rugby is not football. Rugby is a yobs games played by gentleman whereas football is a gentlemans games played by yobs and we shouldn't be assuming that the trend of football will reach over in rugby. Rivalary between nations is always good as it sets the match up better, Scotland vs England in particular. The atmosphere in the stadium was amasing and then when scotland won, it just was so different to what would happen in football matches
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I totally agree, the great thing about rugby, and a point I have proved to many of my footie friends is that you can go to a rugger match have a few beers with the oppos have plenty of banter without getting nasty
lets keep out the idiots and keep rugby a supporters games
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I find the attitude of many on this blog ever so slightly patronising. British politics has changed significantly in the last number of years with all the home nations having some form of political autonomy which in turn breeds nationalism to varying degrees. This can be seen in the stands of many sporting arenas. Granted, rugby has this to a lesser degree but I do think this will change in time. Not all football fans are nationalistic uneducated thugs as they are perceived to be by many posters. PS Remember Thatcher was hysterically anti Scottish and therefore created a lot of the resentment felt by Scots towards England.
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I like most of the people making comments on here hope that rugby supports doesn't descend into the depths that football did.
I am English through and through and get ribbed by the celt friends who have this "anyone but England attitude."
They can never answer why they don't want England to win against any opposition and I will often remind them that the celtic and English players stand shoulder to shoulder and spill blood and sweat for eachother when they play for the Lions against the southern hemisphere.
Maybe the media does stir things up....I'm fed up with watching Geoff Hurst's goal. But I do think too many people live in the past.
Did you know that most of the Britsh army in Culloden were Scottish. I didn't and don't care because it was centuries ago.
If someone tells me they are a rugby man that's good enough for me and tells me volumes about them.
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I too have a sense of excitement on a 6 Nations Day. It started as a kid in the 1970s being taken by my Dad to The Arms Park to watch those mighty Welsh teams. Sitting on a wall at the back of the East Terrace.
A fond memory is of a huge Scotsman very much the worse for wear draping himself around a bemused Policeman and saying "Och it doesn't matter that we lost. We're all Celts as long as we beat the English."
It was funny and was not meant with any hatred towards English people. Just the longstanding friendly antipathy the Celts have towards the English.
Sadly I think what little nastiness there is now comes from people who do not follow the game week in week out but who travel (maybe corporately?) to away games and don't understand the differences between some good hearted banter and nastiness / hatred. And that covers all the home nations I feel.
Finally for what it is worth when Wales beat England on that glorious day two years ago not one Englishman congratulated me or my son (thought both Flag carrying Welshmen). Unlike the Irish a few weeks later.
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I'm Welsh and I went to university in England (Birmingham). When I was there in the 80s there was a mixture of nationalities in the rugby club, mostly English and Welsh but with a few Scots and Irish thrown in. There was never any animosity during the five nations. In fact, groups of us would trek to Twickenham every other year to watch Eng v Wales and arrange to 'meet under the posts' The losers (mostly England in those days :) ) would be sore, but never angry. It used to amaze football playing friends of mine that the Welsh and English fans would not only travel to the game together but mix in the crowd. Having been to Cardiff only a few times recently then I'm pretty sure it's exactly the same now.
As to the Welsh/Scots hating the English. As I said I'm Welsh but I live in England, my wife and kids are English and I don't hate the English. Only in Rugby will I cheer anybody but the English, although even then I did support them in the World Cup. Football and Cricket I'm definitely an English fan. Why? Well there are several reasons.
One is historical, in the part of Wales I'm from, the South East corner, it was English owners that originally ran the mines and iron works. Those owners outlawed the speaking of Welsh (which is why so many people from that are do not speak Welsh today) and were generally bastards!
Another reason is the press. The Welsh perceive the press to be completely biased towards the English team, even in Wales the press carries more England stories than Wales stories and I've often wondered why the 成人快手 hasn't renamed itself to the EBC, people in the north think the 成人快手 is London centric, think of the Welsh, to us it's all about England. Try this as a test, next week during the build up to the six nations, listen to which country gets most coverage on Radio5 and which country gets mentioned first and then wonder why the Scots/Welsh/English get so annoyed. Another example, last night there was coverage of the English Premiership on the main 成人快手 news, but no coverage of the Magner's league. Why? It's the 成人快手, the BRITISH Broadcasting Corporation, the last time I looked, Scotland, Wales and Ireland were in the Magner's league, only English teams in the Premiership.
The press coverage, leads to another reason why people in Wales cheer against England, they consider the English arrogant, which I believe mostly comes back to the press coverage. Although English people have to ask themselves how many times they say England when they really should say Britain. My wife does it and she's married to a Welshman. My kids do it and they're half Welsh.
Is it no wonder we get so bloody annoyed :)
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As a Scot and somewhat overly patriotic who lived in England many years I find this sad. Many times I have been the only Scot in the pub watching games and had a great time. Sometimes to strangers amazement I could be seen cheering England or any other on as they played well.
Hopefully the few who think it is good to insult others will disappear if the true supporters drown them out.
Funnily enough only came across this here in Norway first year I moved here. But it was a skinhead so did't pay much attention and wasn't about to lose a 7 quid beer!!!!
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As a Scot and somewhat overly patriotic who lived in England many years I find this sad. Many times I have been the only Scot in the pub watching games and had a great time. Sometimes to strangers amazement I could be seen cheering England or any other on as they played well.
Hopefully the few who think it is good to insult others will disappear if the true supporters drown them out.
Funnily enough only came across this here in Norway first year I moved here. But it was a skinhead so didn't pay much attention and wasn't about to lose a 7 quid beer!!!! on a numpty
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Mr Beattie
The point you make about arbitrary borders from along time ago is a good one and even more so when considering any ethnicity arguments. Afterall we are just humans moving around the face of the planet
So whilst we do live in social communities any rivalries we have should just be friendly one - those that rugby has exemplified for so long.
I hold the communities I belong close to my heart and have rivalries with others but I never boo or jeer them. Indeed when looking at a wider picture I may even support the other - like the rival town in my county I'll support against teams from outside my county. With neutral teams I'll resort to a wonderfully British cultural 'support the underdog'!
As such in rugby - personally sticking to a very strong 'wandering around the planet' philosophy - I support any team from the British archipelago. I may cheer louder against France but not against France and sometimes I may even cheer for them.
This should remain the spirit for rugby and be the spirit for all sport and relations even without my geographical identity.
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I fully agree, but what worries me even more than rugby, and sport in general, is that this dislike is now spilling over into all areas of life.
If nationalism eventually leads to independence for each of the home nations, I do not see why this should be accompanied by antagonism and contempt. The Scots, Welsh and English share a small island. We are compelled by common sense to get on.
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I agree absolutely with the comments posted. My memories of doing the rounds of the rugby stadia during the 80's and 90's were of conviviality and commonality, celebrating the great matches, commiserating with strangers over a pint or a hip flask or a leather wine jug with no antipathy at all.
Surely,if it is going wrong now, it is when we focus on differences, rather than similarities, when we become petty and parochial instead of proud that we all share this great tradition of rugby. I am English but was genuinely delighted to see the wonderful rugby on display in recent years by the Irish, the fabulous inter-play of the Welsh backs a couple of years ago and the spirit of the Scots last season.This,in some way, compensates me for the mess the English are in but to a certain extent that is what the 6 nations is or should be about. If it all goes horribly wrong for our side, we can at least marvel at the spectacle some of the other sides are putting on and celebrate the greater good.
Here's to a wonderful 6 nations, on and off the pitch!
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Your example cites the bad behaviour of Ulster fans but I really think your bad luck here was to come across the team with the most ill behaved fans in the Magners league. They seem to pride themselves on acting like football fans - abusive songs, cheering "eeyor" when kicks are missed, screaming at officials, shouting at other fans. I too have enjoyed rugby for many years, particularly the ability to go out on match day with zero fear of a fight. But Ulster fans are a different breed and they are poisoning the game. Someone needs to get a grip on this before we end up like football.
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One thing that always really annoys me about the 6 nations is when England play away at Murrayfield and the pre-match nonsense that the Scots lay on with the whole Braveheart thing. If the English did something similar, there'd be uproar.
I've got to say that my attitude towards the Scots has changed enourmously as a result and the post about Andy Murray typifies that.
I think it's a shame if things are going this way but it's the same in many walks of life - the world's changing and not for the better.
As regards over-celebrating winning the World Cup (footy or rughby) or bringing it up too many times, it's difficult to know how the Celts would behave if they ever won it, because, errrrr, they never have. One suspects we'd see some very similar behaviour.
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Well said on post 55. I am Irish and would never support England in any sport in any competition and I reckon this is the same for the Welsh and Scots. It's just schadenfreude, cheeky satisfaction at seeing the old enemy fail. However, I feel it only pertains to the realm of sport. I have no problem with the English or any other people whatsoever. Having said this and although not condoning what Trevor Brennan did, my experience of some Ulster fans means the incident didn't surprise me. Let's not go down the road of football.
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I'm afraid Sean may have misread my contribution. It is worrying if he did not. I did not complain about the republic national anthem being played in Dublin. I accept the reason given by the IRFU that it shows respect for the host country. I would like that extended to Ravenhill and the opportunity for those from the other part of this island to have the same respect shown. I've always argued to cynical friends that the IRFU line shows that there is no disrespect or bias against unionists from the North shown and that if a game was played in Belfast the UK national anthem would be appropriate. The recent IRFU decision makes my argument redundant. However comments such as that from Sean add a political frisson to it, completely disrespectful of my own community. I have always thought that those who did not support the Ireland team from Ulster were politically oversensitive and were unneccesarily affected by politics in a sport which does not want it. The IRFU decision now gives the impression that politics has always been involved, and of a greener tinge than that worn by the rugby team. Would respect for the actual political position in Northern Ireland not be an example of the new understanding that is meant to permeate the island of Ireland in recent years? Or does Sean believe that we should ignore the facts and consider the anthem of the republic to be the anthem of the whole island? Would Sean come to Ravenhill and support an Ireland team which played with GSTQ as its anthem and with the union flag flying just as I and thousands of others from the unionist family have done with the republics anthem and flag for generations? And if he won't, does he think that neither national anthem , or flag, should be produced at any home Ireland match? I would be very interested to read Sean's views.
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I am a Scot living in England and I regularly travel (home & away)to watch both the Scotland and Rugby teams. The travelling Scottish football support is always good humoured and trouble free (less than 10 arrests in the last ten yrs at away games & 3 of these were in Cardiff)My dealings in general with English supporters of both sports has always been good on an individual basis, the problems always seem to arrise from the `tribal collective` on both sides. There are some who genuinely hate England and English and these people are not worth bothering with - England also have their equivelant. In general the Scots (Irish + Welsh) fans hate the media coverage of England & not the individuals i.e Britain = England & England = Britain etc. and the patronising attitude towards the Celtic countries (or regions as some would have it)` The National anthem is meant to be British but now viewed by most as English in regards to Football and Rugby. In the same vein going back 20 yrs most English football & rugby fans did not seem to realise that the COSG was their flag (look at Wembley 1966 - not one in sight)this has now changed although the Union flag is still hijacked as well. Most Celts can`t stand cricket yet it is treated in the media as a `British` sport and given saturation coverage nationally which is why most of us are having a sly little laugh to ourselves with the current ashes tour. I don`t believe things are as bad as some `posters` here make out and some of the complaints raised are just mirroring the lack of tolerence and different mind set of modern life. I do not see anarchy breaking out on the terraces and I am sure that apart form the few idiots (who nobody wants)we can continue to co-exist as sporting rivals with good humour and some occasional `sledging`.
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Thankfully there is still an obvious difference between rugby fans and football 'fans'. Just read these posts - in the main they are articulate, interesting and demonstrate not just undirected passion but a real love for the game of rugby. compared to the football posts its like reading Joyce or Hemingway. Particularly GK's post earlier on - I had to get a friend with a degree in socio-economic politics to explain what he was talking about.
I think that the people who really care about rugby can see the bigger picture, whereas the hooliganesque aggresive fans aren't fans at all they are just thugs who want an outlet for their feelings of inadequacy. In football the thugs seem to be winning - lets try and keep rugby for the rest of us real sports enthusiasts.
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I think that one reason for the aggresive nature of tadays banter at the games is the dilution of Rugby support at internationals by football fans!! May sound daft but I know quite a few die-hard football fans who have ended up with hospitality / corporate match day tickets at Murrayfield. The unfamiliar surroundings and rugby-esque craic goes out the window after a few beers and they revert to type.
Remember it only needs a few voices in every thousand to alter the overall impression!
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Rugby banter as it is is great.
I was recently at leicester Vs. Munster, the banter between fans was amazing. i was stood in a leicester shirt in a terrace full of munster fans, no indivdual abuse was given at all. The banter part is the best. we are no where near football nor are we on a slippery slope towards it. Its all a bit of light harted fun that 99% of the fans laught at!!
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I think in general John is right, and as a nation we are becoming more anti-English. I wouldn't agree that this sentiment has become any stronger at Murrayfield and the surrounding rugby banter. Yes, at the Calcutta Cup last year every big hit on a white shirt was met with a roar, but haven't they always been?
In the pub after the game my friends and I were talking to a group of England fans and it was all good natured banter, they felt we had the run of the ref's decisions (and I agreed), but they were happy to admit England didn't perform and our boys played out their skins. They marvelled at the atmosphere in all the pubs, and said that it was probably a good thing that Scotland won as they couldn't possibly have enjoyed their trip up here more.
John couldn't have said it better about this time of year, I love it too. Travelling along Princes St to work and seeing the flags outside the Balmoral fills me with anticipation and still makes me feel like a kid at Christmas.
I've got tickets to all the Murrayfield matches again this year, and only hope they're as special as they were last year!
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Totally agree but as a long suffering England fan I must admit tired of the 'anyone but england' mentallity and also players like Gavin Hastings/John Jefferys' hatred of the English. If an England player spoke in the way these two have in the past they would be absolutely lambasted.
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I think that both rugby and football have come along way in recent years in becoming more globalised. Look at the Chelsea football team for example and the amount of foreign players. And then look at teams in rugby union with the amount of players who have represented another country because of mixed parentage/upbringing. Whether or not you support a country because of your bloodline, is up to you the supporter. There is alot of positive things to be said about the globalisation of the sport. Yet a bit of cross border banter doesn't hurt. One of my mates is Welsh and we always enjoy some decent piss-taking when a rugby match is on.
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Spot on, Doug.
I hate politics' involvement in sport, but I think, in general, Devolution has led to a more mature attitude about our identity (and others) not a more immature one. I think there has been a general opening up of the game. It has certainly become more popular in England after they won the RWC and I think some people (football supporters or not) who either aren't aware of rugby's traditions or don't respect them are dragging it down. It should be up to the supporters around them to tell them to shut up or get them removed.
Could it be that professionalism has changed things? We see a lot more cheap shots, cheating and professional fouling now by players (which some amateurs emulate?) that seems to agitate crowds. I've gone back to playing social rugby and was amazed by one team of youngish lads, who clearly take their rugby seriously (no problem with that), constantly lipping at the ref, making smart remarks to opposition players etc etc and still lost. They could barely even shake hands after the game. Maybe some people just need a sense of perspective.
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I have to agree with all the comments made by John Lyons. I myself am a Scot who has been living in England for 20 years, and I think any anti-English attitudes are aimed at media and a minority of ignorant fans.
I am also tired of the English=British attitude amongst some fans, and the endless patronising of Scottish sport. There are one of two prime culprits, especially on rugby comentary. Brian Moore, Jeremy Guscott and Will Carling are typical examples of the arrogant attitude which Scots dislike. Even when Scotland play well, they still do not acknowledge the fact adn they berate all Celtic nations likewise.
I myself supported England on the recent Ashes tour, and support the football and rubgy team whenever they do not play Scotland, but it is easy to see why some dont.
I am not insinuating that it is all one sided, both sides possess negative attitudes towards the other, but can rugby remain the one area where that is irrelevant? I hope so, for the sake of the sport.
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at the end of the day, even rugby fans are human, therefore there will always be a certain percentage who are idiots - let's hope that this percentage stays small and everyone can keep enjoying the game that we all love. After all - that's the whole point isn't it? Roll on the Calcutta Cup...
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I am very proud of the traditions of the game of rugby,I started playing the game in the 70s when a large number of schools played, nowadays very few play.I think we have a duty to show the young the tremendous benefits of the game of rugby,the camaradrie,the discipline and spirit.It is a brotherhood saying that no matter how hard I try god I hate the aussies
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i totally disagree!im a loyal munster fan and have been all around europe and have never seen this kind of behaviour!even when we beat leister they were very nice to us and when they beat us at thomand park we all had a great time!!!!!
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Excellent banter. I have to say that most rugby crowds that I have the pleasure to mingle with enjoy and appreciate good rugby .....why is this ? Because (and different from football in my experience) most have played, at whatever level, and understand and respect the game, your opposition and the officials. This is a key difference and why I still (along with the majority) just want to watch and appreciate rugby. As a Cornishman (who obviously doesn't support England due to our Celtic nationality - when will it be the 7 Nations and we can rightfully take our place in the competition ?!) all I say is good luck to all 6 teams this year. Let's enjoy the rugby, the crack the banter and the beers. I know I will !! If a minority is unable to understand that this is what rugby at all levels is all about then they are not rugby fans - and we need to make sure they either get with the programme or are encouraged to follow another sport. Kernow bis Vikan !!
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I think we all have a collective responsibility to ensure the tradition and etiquette of rugby support continues. The songs sung should be in support of your team and not aimed at riling the opposition. Lets ensure that those who are new to the game know where to draw the line. I believe each nation has it's own role to play in reigning in unwanted abuse, since a word to the wise from a fellow countryman will surely go down better than from an opposition fan.
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I think I may be drifting from the original theme here, but thought I would just cover a quick point of who supports who and why.
I am a passionate Scotland fan, but do have a soft spot for my fellow Celtic nations and Italy too. It is the old argument that Englands' population is 50 million plus. Scotland, Wales and Ireland total about 10 together. We're underdogs, and that is my only thought. Regardless of 1000 years of history of getting invaded, persecuted and bullied, I really couldn't care. Politics? Irrelevant to me. Supporting the underdog to beat big brother who has more resourses, support, funding, players and hype? You bet! It's not racist. It's not hatred. It is the fact that we don't get many days beating the odds, so when the time comes, we revel in it. Simple. As for is it getting worse? As long as England is bigger, and believes they are divinely intitled to be better (and as long as Jeremy 'neutral 成人快手 pundit' Guscott remains in a job), I'll be giving out the banter and singing along with the wee fellas. No more than 10 years ago, and no more less than I will in 10 years time either.
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I experienced serious racism whilst watching England vs Wales in the world cup quarter final back in 2003. In a pub at the top of George Street in Sydney, I noticed some english fans (face paint, flag, outfit, the lot) try to turn banter with some Welsh fans in a full blown fight. They looked like football hooligans, not your average fan despite having the shirt on. The Welsh fans concern was that they were getting in the way of the screen. So they tried it on with the Aussies next to them, with the same result.
Eventually, I and my friends had had enough of this, grabbed the attention of the bouncer 20 foot away who literally sent them airborne through the open door. The entire pub as one regardless of shirt colour turned from the screen, waved goodbye to them, sarcastically wished them a nice day and then focused back on the game.
The above comments are right, rugby does not football fan mentality.
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I'd like to back up the comments of #62 re the Media. A number of English posters have stated that they happily support Scotland / Wales / Ireland when they play and express hurt bewilderment at the fact that actually this support is not universally and automatically reciprocated.
A huge part of this attitude (on the part of the Scots etc) is in response to the ridiculous bias and weighting the national media organisations give to coverage of all things sporting and English. The national press, writing for a market numerically dominated by England gives the people what they want - a flood of coverage bordering on the obsessive and obsequious. Coverage of other nations is at best patchy and often dismissive, patronising, uninformed or often simply absent. The 成人快手 is as guilty of this as any. In the face of this I am not surprised that many people take delight in seeing the "tall poppy" that is England being taken down. I can assure you that if the boot were on the other foot The English would be as desperate for the Scots / Welsh / Irish to lose and make the (media) noise stop. I wanted England to win the RWC in 2003 but a while afterwards I was almost wishing they hadn't.
Unfortunately there are a number of tiny minds who cannot tell the difference between the English media and the English people and who transpose this into a hatred of the "arrogant English".
One last point - Arrogant English? I'm a Scot and I shudder to think what we'd be like if we won anything. Truth is we're all a damn site more alike than we'd all probably like to think.
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Throughout my adult life I have only been aware of a very anti- Engliah attitude from Welsh and Scots fans and have felt compelled to respond in a similar way. I fully understand the History of the resentment and have a degree of sympathy.
I do think that with professionalism and greater commercialism the divisions have grown wider but the seeds have been there a long time but Mr beattie is overly nostalgic in his assessment of Nationalism as a new sentiment. What is newer is a harder English recation.
If you look at all the Nations who play Rugby then England would be in most "top 3 teams we most like to beat" of most of those countries supporters and Number 1 for;
Scots
Welsh
French
Irish
and posibly Aus (depending on how they were doing in the Southern Hemisphere at the time).
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Lets forget politics devoluition etc and get back the fun in the internationals the game is just 80 mins long comrady last for life spcially friendships made thourgh rugby union who cares about who comes from where lets get back to the having a beer to drown our sorrows or celabrate a bit of mickey taking with our FELLOW RUGBY SUPPORTERS from ah the airts will always be welcome at Murrayfield and hopefully in the local hostileries by the locals see you at Twicker in the cabbage patch
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Lets forget politics devoluition etc and get back the fun in the internationals the game is just 80 mins long comrady last for life spcially friendships made thourgh rugby union who cares about who comes from where lets get back to the having a beer to drown our sorrows or celabrate a bit of mickey taking with our FELLOW RUGBY SUPPORTERS from ah the airts will always be welcome at Murrayfield and hopefully in the local hostileries by the locals see you at Twicker in the cabbage patch
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The banter is still there and long may it continue. I have not missed a Wales match since 1971 (and I am only 46!) and still enjoy the ribbing, the sharing of beer, jokes etc. and the handshakes of congratulations / commiserations from the opposition supporters. However, it is OUR job to ensure that this continues and the 'younger generation' know the rugby etiquette. Take note of the Munster crowd last weekend who were silent when Leicester kicked. Sadly, this is unusual now in stadia and let's shut-up those who boo, hiss and jeer kickers. By the way, another Grand Slam on the way for the Welsh, followed by a great showing in the Worls Cup - England - bring back Jonny, Johnno, Backie - it's your only hope!
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If I recall correctly, last season's Calcutta Cup took place in a Murrayfield stadium which resembled a scene from Culloden - complete with kilted Highlanders set to repel all boarders. Perhaps you should address the 成人快手 Unions before calling for restraint amongst spectators?
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An Englishman by birth (and by the grace of God - only joking fellas) I had the dubious 'pleasure' of living in Northern Ireland for 9 yrs. Never in my life have I experienced such hatred of everything English. Any England match (football, rugby, lawn bowls, tiddlywinks, etc) was greeted in the pubs by hordes of the locals sporting opposition strips. (when England played Argentina in the 2002 world cup, the majority of sports shops in the province suddenly had a huge upsurge in Argentinian shirt sales). Their hatred even spread to the point that when the Queen Mother died, graffiti appeared across walls all over Belfast proclaiming 'about time'!!
Unfortunately I see some of the same hatred evidenced in the above comments, while most people on here are obviously sane and realise that we all eat, sleep and you know. There are the small, ignorant few who are determined to make their hatred England's fault. Is it the fault of the football team that commentators constantly mention '66, most English people are sick of hearing about it themselves!!
Is it the England Rugby team's fault that, at the time of the World Cup they had the best fly half in world rugby operating at the height of his ability (admittedly he is not at the moment, I am talking about that period in time). Of course not!! the problem that I see is that a small section of people in the Celtic nations are jealous of England's past achievments. ( I lived in Belfast during WC2003 and the backlash to England's win was horrendous) I realise not everyone is like this and it is the few bringing down the many, why? Because the few shout louder. Personally I would be more than happy to sit and watch a scotland/ireland/wales game and support the home team, in fact come autumn international time I see it as North vs South. however I find myself reluctant to do so when all i seem to get back is abuse. People need to start showing that they dont care, when you see/hear these idiots starting up, let them know they're not welcome rather than ignoring them like most people do. Things might be a bit more peaceful then.
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The character and unique appeal of the six antions tournament is, for me, fundamentally based upon the traditional and 'stereotypical' attributes that each nation brings to the party - be it the style of rugby, the silly hats or the rousing songs that distinguish one nation from the other. I am an England fan, but am affected as much by the Welsh fans bellowing 'Land of our Fathers' or a frenzied French 'Marsaillaise' as I am by the rising chorus of 'swing low' in the stands of Twickenham. This does not reflect my alleigence to a national identity, but, rather, stems from a great love of the rugby tradition that, in the modern era of proffessionalism, continues to make the Six Nations so special.
Thus, I was appalled when the Scottish authorities thought it suitable to greet the visiting England team in 2006 with a re-enactment of the 1314 battle of Bannockburn - something that was only ever going to provoke sentiments of national confrontation and hatred. The idea that the event and the re-enactment were somehow inkeeping with one-another shows a dangerous level of stupidity in the organisers and the result, I believe, was an utterly boring game of rugby in which the traditional spirit of the tournament was shunned. Shame on the Scottish RFU for for trying to evoke such deplorable and unwanted nationalistic fervor!!
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in reply to "I am a Welshman, and the problem is the english". First of all the English have not been Anglo-Saxons since the Norman invasion of 1066, in which the normans took power of England. second of all the fact that you claim your Celtic heritage with the idea of "the celts against the Saxon invaders", the celts are as foreign to the Brittish isles as the saxons are (the celts originating in central Europe and being forced to Britain by Roman expansion). so why not drop this racist idea of the English and bear in mind we are all people living in the brittish isles (despite our German, Celtic, French and Roman Lineage), there are no vast diferences between myself (a Scot), my son (English) and you (a welshmen)
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to number 23's comment.i'm scottish and i support England in every game except against Scotland,towards your comment about english arrogance i really disagree, many people hated wilkinson for his apparent "arrogance" also half the english team, but we must look around the world at other "arrogant" players, dan carter, gavin henson,shane williams,dominici,george gregan. now how many players are actually arrogant, i think its jealously of opposing fans which gives them they're arrogant label.
i also agree lets not follow football fans, lets keep the love banter and passion for the game as it is.
phil.
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I am also a football and rugby fan, a season ticket holder at Celtic and a keen home internationals spectator at Murrayfield. The fans who are all bemoaning the decline into a football type atmosphere at rugby matches are way off the mark.
This is another example of rugby snobbery, with some rugby fans consistently seeing themselves as better than football fans. It's allways easy to take the supposed moral high ground and look down on football supporters but the truth is they are more alike than the green welly wearing faction of rugby fans would like to admit. I can remember years of fans booing 'god save the queen' at Murryfield before the aNthems were changed and this was in the so called 'golden age' of rugby camaraderie. Rugby support recently has got more passionate and vocal, also, international sport allways reflects social and cultural differences. Look at southern hemisphere rugby for example and the fan rivalry there, it makes some of our games in years gone by sound very tame. However my main point is that most fans of both rugby and football are not members of the 'prawn sandwich brigades' but do constitute 90% of the atmosphere at every game and if we the fans want to have a wee dig/rib of opposing fans then why not? Also, lets face facts, 99% of all negative rugby banter is aimed at the English media and players by the rest of the 6 nations. They will allways be the team that everyone loves to beat/hate. Indeed look at when they won the world cup and proudly displayed the slogan 'The Empire strikes back' across a prominent london landmark. You didn't see the Aussies getting all antsy and complaining about 'rugby gone bad'.
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One of the main things that has changed is that rugby 20 years ago or so was a game run, played and watched by "rugby people" who understood the special quality our game has. When I used to visit Twickenham it was full of rugby people as well as the corporates of course.
With professionalism, which has tremendously improved the quality of rugby, a wider audience has been attracted to the game.Unfortunately not all of these appreciate how to behave and treat the day as pseudo - soccer environment.
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Dear number 73, the Roman expansion forced the Celts into the British Isles?????????????
Please at least look up some history facts before posting such nonsense!!
You are at least 1 thousand years off the mark
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Hi there,
As a proud Welshman and Celt, id say yes...we do need the Nationalistic rivalry, but keep it the way it always has been in rugby...friendly and fun but competitive!!
Its not a bad thing to be proud to say who you are and were your from.
There is too much 'PC' in the world now, and its starting to creep into our beloved game. Take away the pride of your own country, then kill the fun of banter before and after matches.
Besides...Im Welsh, there is no way i am letting the enghish have an easy time when we play then!!:-)
Best regards.
And.
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*45 Jonathan Chapman - good perception: "there is plenty of anti-anti-English feeling" and I'd be happy if your countrymen kept that as their focus. Goodness knows you have evry right to defend yourselves against unwarranted criticism!
I'm proud to be a Scot but I also know that anti-Englishness adds NOTHING to my Scottish identity - in fact it subtracts from it. I'm happy to be a rival and I don't want to be an enemy.
I admit to having difficulty supporting England but really wrestle with that in the face of my English friends who I care for deeply. If you can genuinely wish Scotland well then you're doing better than a lot of my countrymen can in response and perhaps it is precisely that quality, that gives a lot of English people the 'ethical edge' over us that grouse, which the English are in very real danger of losing. PLEASE DON'T LOSE IT. I just wish some of my own would learn to celebrate their own identity without having to make their neighbours lives a misery.
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I am a Scot living in London who travels to both football and rugby Scotland internationals, home and away. The rugby atmosphere is something very special, and it saddens me to see an increase in booing the opposition kicks and the other incremental deteriorations in the support. I'd hate the mixed crowds and the banter in the pubs before and after to be lost. In particular, the Cardiff weekend is always absolutely fantastic.
I don't think it can be doubted that Scots enjoy beating the English at football and rugby. Very much. It doesn't happen very often, but it's great when it does. That's natural: neighbours enjoy local rivalries. My English friends know that our rivalry probably matters more to Scotland than England, but that's OK; again, it's natural for the underdog to feel it more. There are idiots on both sides, of course. I feel for English supporters abused in pubs supporting their team, as they are entitled to do; and then when Scotland played England last time at Wembley in 1999 (fitba), some friends were spat at on the tube, and some others were punched in the head from behind whilst walking up Wembley Way. Horrible.
I think that the best that can be said is that those of us with any sense, which I'm pleased to see seems to be almost everyone on this thread, should recognise occasional incidents as regrettable but isolated, take a deep breath and try not to let that colour their view of Scotland/England/other fans generally (example: 4 young england supporters watching 'final score' in a pub in rose street, surprised that the scots premier football results were shown first in Scotland: 'what's this jock rubbish on for, why don't they show the proper football first'). Deep breath.
It's up to us international-attending supporters to make sure that in 20 years a six nations weekend is still as fantastic as ever, recognise loval rivalries for what they are, and stick to self-policing where possible/seeing the wood for the trees where there is an occasional halfwit.
Enjoy the championship
Craig
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I went to Gloucester last week to watch my beloved Leinster play, and I had the displeasure of sitting next to this idiot who supported Munster who travelled all the way from Ireland to cheer on Gloucester in a Munster shirt, he had no interest in Gloucester he just wanted to cause trouble for us Leinster fans, as he intentionally sat with the Leinster fans, I thought what a idiot. In conclusion I think the Leinster Munster rivalry is getting out of hand, and Munster fans like that really have no right to call themselves the world's best supporters, before this and many other unpleasant experiences I'd always shout for Munster if it didn't affect Leinster as my Mum is from Cork, and have extended family in Limerick and its an Irish team, but seeing them lose in Thomond Park last week as well brought a huge smile to my face.
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It's not just Six Nations rugby, the footballisation of the game is evident at club level too - I watched Saracens play Narbonne in Watford two weeks ago and although the visitors scored three good consolation tries towards the end, no-one around me applauded the scores. I was brought up in the 80s to appreciate both teams' play, however reluctantly and however painful it was to see your rivals score, perhaps that's a thing of the past in this age of cheerleaders and the overexcited Sky-ification of our sport.
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I'm English and at Uni in Swansea. This will be my 3rd 6 nations here, and hopefully not my last, I want to live here. But, the attitude of the Welsh does annoy me a little. It is only a minority, as Im usually watching games with Welsh fans, but I've endured booing of the anthem, booing every time an English player touch the ball, and personal abuse for wearing the rose with pride, none of this when we were playing Wales though! During the autumn game against Argentina I heard the comment that causes alot of the problems, "I dont like rugby but as long as England lose I dont care". That attitude will cause problems, but I know its not the attitude of most true rugby fans. I have ultimate respect for fans of all the other nations and hopefully will always be able to have a drink with them after the game.
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Think Posts 80 and 87 are what its all about. My best and worst match was in Edinburgh September 2001. Drove up from England full of hope and cheek, spent the Friday night in Hawick taking the mick. Watched the match with a Welsh/English couple whose honeymoon had been diverted to Glasgow because of 9/11 and a couple of Scots who had got tickets from friends who thought it was a waste of time turning up. The result was a disaster for Ireland but the sight of the Scots celebrating afterwards made up for it, almost!
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The problem is i think the popularity of rugby, back in the good old days it wasn't a game for the masses and therfore excaped the thuggery associated with the masses, now everybody loves rugby it has attracted fans away from football who see the competition as a chance for both verbal and physical sparring with the opposing fans, so until the game slips back into partial obscurity again we may be stuck with the louts. Living as i do in New Zealand i can happily say the aggresion has yet to sufae over here still stuck with happy banter and drinking too heavily and comisserating with new found friends
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I reckon the whole Scots & welsh assembly has pushed everyone into a corner. You look at the 1966 world cup, you could not find a England flag in the old TV footage it was all union jacks. Same as the cricket in the mid 80's when Botham was dishing out lessons to the Aussies. Again union jacks. But since the talk about Scots and welsh independence the English have been forced into a bit of a corner. No longer is the British identify enough, it鈥檚 now required to find a English identity, mainly because the Scots and Welsh have had reason to reinforce their own national identify and pride via the new parliaments. I reckon this has gone a long way to splitting the bonds between the home unions and strengthening the differences. I neither agree or disagree with this. I live in Australia now where I have more in common with the English than I have ever, but also am now the proudest Scot possible. But in a climate when the Euro has help more and more countries find there identify England have followed suit. This has sadly meant we now feel obliges to stress the differences. Common Scotland!!
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I think some of the marketing of the games doesn't help either e.g. the 成人快手 & SRU emphasising the Wallace & bannockburn stuff before a Calcutta Cup game. While most people will take it with a pinch of salt, there'll be a few who will take it to another level and believe the game is a recreation of a battle long ago.
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Well, I've spent the best part of a bleary eyed Monday morning reading every single comment and with the exception of the football fan, who doesn't realise that you can have a beer and enjoy a sporting occasion without violence and a few narrow minded 'lost souls', we can all take pride that the bulk of people that are prepared to contribute to rugby (like in this blog) all have the best interests of the game and sportsmanship at heart.
I am a scot living in England and have played rugby in England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales. It is a sport that crosses borders and always has. There will, unfortunately, be a minority that try and ruin it for the rest of us, but it is equally our responsibility to stop it happening. I've stood up before and had a go at scots who have crossed the line with english friends of mine. Equally I've actually taken a beating from 3 english blokes, wait for it, when they played Scotland a few years ago ! Who stepped in ? An English man with morals ! Did it bother me ? Yes. Does it change my opinion of the people in the country that I choose to live...NO !! Minorities aren't worth the time of day !
Rugby has always transcended nationality and will continue to do so, provided the responsible rugby loving fans continue to keep it that way. We all have a responsibility !
Just one other point.....please, please can we drop 'Flower of Scotland' many scots on here have spoken of being baited by the English.....our chosen song for rugby (NOT !! national Anthem 'the Brave !!' is pretty blatantly aimed at showing off for beating the English (700 years ago)......and we are all too happy to complain about the English being proud of a world cup win in 1966 or 2003 ! Thats just a little hypocritical.
Long live rugby and all its traditions ! We should all be proud that we are standing up for our sport !
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A lot of footy fans started watching England when England won the world cup. So you have lots of these at the matches now. Not all fans are like this tho, it's still a very small majority. I went with some footy fans that were newly converted to rugby to watch the local club play. It was London Irish at the Mad Stad and my Reading footy supporting friend was amazed that firstly we were drinking beer in our seats watching the match and that secondly we were sat next to fans of the opposing side! Lets hope that rugby stays this way!!
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It is quite clear from these comments there is a problem with anti English hostility at sporting events. I suggest that England drops out of Rugby home internationals as they did with football. I would like to see no more GB teams,and I definitely never want to see English only teams like the GB Rugby league
play under the union jack again.
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You are trying to make a story where there isn't one. Despite the talk, I do not see any genuine anti English hostility at any of the six nations clashes. If anything, your story is only likely to create such hostility and attract the people who want to fight. Leave rugby out of this kind of media hype please.
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I think it's an unfortunate fact of life that there will always be some individuals who get a bit carried away, however let's not blow this out of proportion - I've been going to Scotland games for about 20 years now, both at Murrayfield and away, and have never witnessed any serious incidents of crowd trouble.
In general most people at these events are there for the right reasons - to support their team, have a bit of banter with the other team's supporters and maybe a wee sherry or two after the game. I don't really see that changing any time soon.
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For every idiot in the crowd you will find 50 decent rugby fans. I think this is the same with most sports althugh unfortunately some other non handling codes of Football have slightly different ratios.
Decent sportsfans will always exist, rugby fans will banter with their mates too. Lets not sanitise the crowd by making us all PC. Viva la difference!!
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Well when we see the front tiers at twickenham filled with meat heads wearing hacket I think we know where this agression originates. I think its fair to say that the core England support has been significantly infiltrated by the BNP and its very sad to see.
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I agree with the opinions expressed by a number of readers that the media tends to get up the nose of anyone who is not English. However, this is not the fault of the English fans as it is just that they happen to be in the majority. The newspapers, channels and websites obviously cater for the majority, regardless of whether they are supposed to be public as in the case of the 成人快手, as this is common sense to boost readership/spectatorship numbers. I feel the historical angle is blown out of proportion and if more of us Celts spoke our native languages as a mother tongue and read news in the Celtic languages, we wouldn't react half as violently to English journalists crowing because we simply wouldn't be exposed to them.
As an Irishman who speaks fluent French, I've often thought the French are as bad as the English and believe that if the Celts were exposed to the French media we would treat the French supporters and team like the English one despite having no historical reason to do so. I can remember watching Leinster vs PErpignan at the HC SF a few years ago and being annoyed by the racist chants of a small number of the opposing team's supporters, a rage which was shared by the people around me when I translated for them.
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I think you're worrying a bit too much. Last year at Twickenham I ended up with a Welshman, Scotsman, Frenchman and an Irishman and it was a fantastic day. I've never had a bad day at an international except once at the Arms Park when the crowd around me were very aggressive when I shouted 'accidental offside'! (The referee agreed).
I once saw someone at the Middlesex Sevens who had had rather too much beer and tried to start a fight. About four of the crowd around him grabbed his shoulders and told him to shut up and sit down as if he were at school. He did and he enjoyed the rest of the tournament.
If you think it's different just go to one of the pubs or speak to the police!
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I absolutely agree with the sentiment of the article in that rugby has a fantastic reputation as a friendly sport. Indeed one of my favourite memories is mixing with French fans in a pub before the match at Murrayfield last year, and I am sure this will continue.
However, the rest is complete gobbledigook....'just because someone drew a line in the ground and called it a border', have you any idea about how differently our nations have developed? When you were 16 did you just support rugby and hoped that the best team won? Not much of a Scotland fan eh? And just aswell someone had the presence of mind to draw all these borders...otherwise we'd all have to support one massive world team...and have no-one to play against!
You're talking about national team sport here, of course passions and rivalry will be involved, and you're talking nonsense in my opinion.
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Having studied and travelled abroad I have come into contact with a number of other 成人快手 Nations countries(Irish,Scots and Welsh) and to a man they all want England to get beat in any sporting event(my friends included).
At first I thought this was just light-hearted banter but actually there is a deep-rooted anti-English sentiment, whereas from an English standpoint the opposite is not generally true.
While, clearly I have made a generalisation here, from personal experience I have found the above to be true.
This may be being a bit simplistic, but why can't all the home nations root for each other when not playing each other.
The Olympics sees a unified team(ecxcluding ROI) and the Ryder cup and other sporting events sees a British team so why does it now seem that Rugby may head down the football route.
Rivalry is healthy but fanaticism is not.
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Having studied and travelled abroad I have come into contact with a number of other 成人快手 Nations countries(Irish,Scots and Welsh) and to a man they all want England to get beat in any sporting event(my friends included).
At first I thought this was just light-hearted banter but actually there is a deep-rooted anti-English sentiment, whereas from an English standpoint the opposite is not generally true.
While, clearly I have made a generalisation here, from personal experience I have found the above to be true.
This may be being a bit simplistic, but why can't all the home nations root for each other when not playing each other.
The Olympics sees a unified team (excluding ROI) and the Ryder cup and other sporting events sees a British team so why does it now seem that Rugby may head down the football route.
Rivalry is healthy but fanaticism is not.
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I couldn't agree more John.
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I would rather see any other team win the 6 nations than england because we'd hear about it for the next 20 years. The spirit of the english players is different to that of any other team, they have tempers which aren't needed in rugby. I can't remember the last game I watched where a Scot lost their temper when they were at fault!! The scottish players are so much more laid back and usually any arguments, pushing, or fighting is started by one of the english players and the english fans cheer it on so no wonder we take it out on the fans! I was at the scotland vs france and scotland vs england games last yr - in the french game, 2 french guys walked out in the last couple of mins because they knew they couldn't win, and in the english game I was sat in the middle of two english blokes - the one to the right of me walked out before scotland were handed the calcutta cup and didn't clap for us once! sorry but what do they expect back from us????
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Thanks for the interest in this. I do believe that, for some reason, attitudes have hardened between some fans which is a manifestation of the hardening attitudes of our countries toward each other.
Which is a flaming shame.
I'm not, actually, sure that it is the media's fault either. I don't think producers think: "Right, let's pick this idiot and stick him on TV."
Thanks alot to post 121
which is very sensible. I grew up believing that the British Isles, all of them, are a bit special and bound together somehow.
Happy rucking everyone, remember, a ruck a day helps you live that little bit longer. It can be painful and tiring, but it's always worth the effort
JB
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Reading John Beattie's article, I think the problem lies in him having a total humour bypass. Every international I have been to home or away banter is the only thing flying, no fist but plenty cutting wit. So John try to remember to bring your humour with you when you come to the pub after the game!
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Agree with John 100% though am wary of his timing ahead of the holyrood elections - these things get hijacked by the 80 minute nationalists, so this year will probably be worse than ever. The SRU has to take a fair share of the blame - the embarrassing "Braveheart" display before last year's Calcutta cup match was a disgrace, with face painted, kilted actors jabbing spears at the England team as they ran out. Surely we are better than that.
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This thread has its share of cranks. John P at 114 above spent nine years in Belfast and spotted graffiti gloating about the Queen Mothers death 'all over' the city. Mmmmm. Anyone with the slightest knowledge of Belfast would know that in very large areas of the city one could define such attempts at anti-royal graffiti as suicidal. As for the Argy tops and anti-England pubs. Perhaps John H restricted his 9 year stay to republican areas. England flags and tops were much in evidence in Belfast over the past 2 World Cups in the absence of a Northern Ireland presence. Not down the Falls Road, I grant you, but then Belfast consists of more than that. As for rugby, I was not alone in Belfast rejoicing when the Aussies got their comeuppance in the last world cup, or who did not cheer when Wilkinson scored in such dramatic fashion. John H has a vivid and warped imagination. Maybe he should move to Metropolis for his next set of experiences.
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I'm afraid this new style of rugby supporter isn't cofined to the 6 nations. I, being an Irish rugby fan travelling around New Zealand, thought I was blessed getting my hands on a couple of Bledisloe cup tickets for myself and my Aussie flatmate a few months ago. We arrive at Eden park, me in my green jersey and flag around my shoulders, flatmate with his golden top, to be greeted by kicks, pushing, spitting and food thrown at us by the Eden park "faithful", and continued for the whole match. Afraid to say, our experiences don't hold much for the RWC in 2011, when New Zealand will have to accomidate more than a couple of Aussie fans and the odd lost Irish one. Also, been to a Bledisloe in Sydney 2 years ago, and not 1 single bad thing to say.
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Rugby World Cup Semi-Final England v France 2003, myself and my girlfriend are at the game with French, Irish, English, aussies and kiwis all around us the banter is as per normal and everyone is enjoying the game. In comes an Englishman and some of his friends and trys to a) upset the French crowd by offensive comments and b) get the crowd to join in. What happend next was what I expect from a rugby crowd. The guy was pointed out to by 3 stewards who threw him out.
At the final we were behind a guy called "Killer" (well thats what it said on his shirt!) who as an aussie was peoud to wear the green and gold and was enjoying and taking part in the banter. Through the game the comments were on-going, but in the spirit of the game, after wheich we both enjoyed the evening (and early morning) and still keep in-touch.
Thats the game and thats the spirit of the supporters that watch it - god help us if this changes.
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I totally agree. I am worried about the road that rugby fans appear to be following. Some of the best rugby days i have had were at Murrayfield mixing with the fans and to take that aspect of what makes rugby unique to other sports in my opinion would only make it worse. I remember one game ages ago, my dad was worried about the non-segregation of fans so to speak, but we got there and everyone was everyone's best friend. Of course you do get the occasional idiot just spoiling for a fight but in general, rugby fans are more mature and civilised in relation to their football counterparts. The evidence is clear!
and in response to aiden synott's comment (138) i totally agree. the media are very guilty of stirring things up among the english. To quote Irish comedian Tommy Tiernan, "I like the English. I think they're good people. Obviously I like to see them defeated in stuff like football and war..."
I'm Scottish and fiercely proud of it. I like to beat England as much as most countries in the world do! but i do like some of the english. i know a lot of them, play rugby with them and get on well with them. i think the media just stirs everything up and in general pisses everyone off north and south of the border.
but back to the point in question. Rugby fans have a good reputation in general and it would pain me to see things otherwise and especially to see seperated fans at International games. even "auld enemy" games!
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I think there has been a deterioration in crowd behaviour over recent years but I suspect this is more a reflection of wider society than anything to do with nationalism. All is not lost; at last year's Calcutta Cup match I had a wonderful time in a packed Edinburgh pub before the game where Scottish and English all united in cheering the Italians on against the French and swapped many a good natured jibe. In the ground however I felt that some of the abuse aimed at the opponent's supporters bordered on the nasty and was uncomfortably close to the type of behaviour which is commonplace at football.
I make no attempt to understand the anti-English attitudes openly displayed; you could write a thesis on that. I do have to laugh at the 'arrogant' label though. I mean, Welsh rugby supporters calling the English arrogant? I must have been dreaming in the mid 1970's, or did we all just miss the point?
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I think there is a lot of hype. Most is just good banter and part of the fun of watching an international be it at the club or at the ground. I sat amongst the Murrayfield crowd last year as an English supporter and was surprised at the lack of stick I got following a good performance by Scotland and an equally poor one from England. My wife however who was in the hotel felt there was more anti english feeling amongst the fans. I do not feel there is a problem and expect some banter and you have to take as good as you give, just like playing really.
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Thanks Dave Scott, #122 for your comments. Rivalry and the lust to be better is a great motivator and one of the fine aspects of sport. It's for that reason I have always found the "Celtic" desire to see any team England play win baffling. I've even seen "Celts" say they would prefer their team to lose than England win! (Read into that what you will about the psyches of these countries.) In Rugby we have been largely excempt from this, but as this blog and recent history has highlighted this is increasingly not the case. More sadly, for me as an Englishman, the English are now starting to join in on this petty xenophobia and whilst we can blame the "moron minority" we are all collectively responsible for the actions of the citizens of our own countries. So, those in the "Celtic" countries who have sat aside and watched this cancer grow and thrive have to take some responsibility as do the English who will let it grow there.
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Could this lead to the end of the British Lions? Could it be that hatred amongst the '成人快手 Nation' fans will lead to Scotland, Ireland and Wales, or indeed England ceding from the British Lions arrangement? If we are to see the end of the British Lions, let it not be because we, the fans killed it. I support independence for my country, Scotland, but I don't support the notion of baiting fans of other nations.
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I think too much is made of the non-sport causes of this. I've seen and heard some less then nice things in the crowd, but never in the pub afterwards. As an Englishman living in Edinburgh (and turned somewhat native) I think the problem with England stems from:
1) They are bigger than us - more new players in a year than we have in total, I'm told.
2) The London media DOES saturate with English images as if nothing else matters. True, after the 1990 Grand Slam there was no escaping re-runs of Tony Stanger's try, but this was on Scottish-only TV. British TV and radio does need to show more balance.
3) 成人快手 TV punditry has too many Englishmen. Much as I respect them, they know the England players and are immersed in English culture - so that's what they talk about.
4) The English Premiership has sucked in money and coverage. Coverage of the Magners League (and even the Heineken Cup) is not given enough space. It has also changed the atmosphere, using football grounds and drawing in some ignorant people.
I grew up in Bath and am a supporter of the club. Atmosphere, especially for Rag Doll matches and others v the Welsh clubs, was usually A1. A few years ago I watched Bath v Leicester on TV. Neil Back scored a wonderful try with a chip over the defence and catch. Any centre would have been proud of it. As a former back row player I was amazed - and yet the Bath crowd didn't applaud at all.
This is creeping into the Magners league and we must stop it.
5) English culture isn't good enough at cheery, friendly, mild-insult based, FUNNY, banter. I don't know why - but trust me, it's true. Might be connected with the way Scottish, Irish and Welsh folk culture is celebrated, whereas in England it is patronised and denigrated (nowhere else would Morris Dancing be a cause for ridicule).
6) At Murrayfield, the English crowd is always large and loud and expectant. Nothing wrong with the first two (except that Scotland fans are badly short of decent songs to drown out SLSC other than YCSYFCUYA) - but the expectation grates. For all the other home nations, it seems the fans travel in hope, not expectation.
7) As the ticket prices at Murrayfield have risen, I've gone more and more for the cheapest, and you do get a more footbally crowd in these. The Tartan Army is normally great but there is a blindspot for England.
8) National Anthems: GSTQ has a bad history in Scotland and we all know why. It's meant to be for the UK, so England really should find something else.
I have no particular solutions, but we should start with the tannoy clamping down on booing the kicker - it's so insecure. We should be saying that we can still win without all that because we are confident.
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Vigorous game, vigorous play, vigorous celebration and vigorous friendships. A game for shapes, sizes and nationalities.
I was taken to task for a boo-ing an opposition kicker, 40 years ago. I've behaved myself ever since. I'm afraid the professional sport has ushered in winning at all costs but there's enough decency left in the game to keep it the great sport that it is. Yes, small minded folk will always attract each other.
Here's to a great 6 Nations with stacks of tries all round.
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Words of wisdom in an age when tribal rivalry of any kind is encouraged by the popular press, the same crowd who always hail England's (insert name of any sport) team as the next world champions, before they have even started to compete.
i too remember meeting under the Murrayfield clock and the fun of being at any international game in the terracing, along with the international beer drinking competitions and sing songs on Rose Street afterwards. For me though much of this has been eroded by the redesign of Murrayfield and my last visit, now nearly 20 years ago was marred by an over enthusiastic steward telling me, my chums and some supporters from England that we had to keep quiet as we were disturbing some corporate hospitality guests with our shouts of support for our respective teams.
The pub we go to now is just like the old Murrayfield, we drink, we shout at the telly, we applaud good rugby, boo bad and have a good time with everyone who turns up to enjoy the match.
So do I believe there is any real evidence of petty nationalism - not really, not on the strength of what I have actually experienced.
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Hi John, I've met you a couple of times at the Hunters and was with Rod when we saw the Scots win at Twickenham in 83.
I think it's minority stuff but it's encouraged by the stiffs at the SRU who start internationals at Murrayfield with leaping roaring flames and a crowd of Braveheart extras making idiots of themselves. Last France game I was embarrassed with two good French friends beside me asking why we needed such theatre for a game of rugby, and who, when they stopped laughing, asked by the way what had France ever done to the Scots to get this kind of treatment.
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This is the first time I have ever commented on a web site. I am very proud and really glad to see such a response. Rugby is not like, and will never be like football. As a Welshman living in Cardiff, I must admit to seeing some 'over the top' banter towards the English. But again, it really is a very small minority! In Wales, we do support the underdog. In rugby it is every one else but England. In football and cricket its a very different story. 100% will support England in cricket and about 80% in football. Not bad considering. There has been a bit of English arrogrance, but at the same time, a large amount of celtic jealosouy when it comes to rugby. All in all, I have had a great experience when I have been to Twickenham. Fianlly, I will never forget seeing a very drunk Englishman and Welshman singing Delilah, arm in arm, on karaoke after a Wales England game in Cardiff. I couldn't even tell you who won an that day.
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Totally agree with Johns comments. Rugby is a game for the fans and what makes it so special is fans from different clubs, nations enjoying a drink or too and having a good time and what we don't need is the football element creeping in.
Wasn't it last year though that the Scottish RFU who decided there should be a re-enactment of Braveheart before last years Calcutta cup match? If there is a problem creeping into the game, the last thing we need is the RFUs stoking it all up before a match.
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One thing that does concern me is the growing licence to be biased on the 成人快手. One reporter on 成人快手 Sport recounting watching the World Cup Final said "Obviously, being Welsh I was supporting Australia"! My kids wondered why - I couldn't explain. Seemed a bit strange for someone who chooses to work for the British Broadcasting Corporation.
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Dear Sir,
All this liberal bleating is really getting up my nose. As a Welshman of English stock, I have had a lot of ribbing from the Welsh for my origin and not being ''Welsh enough'', but when it comes to rugby, for 80 minutes I have nothing but hate for our good neighbours next door. I recall being a 15 year old, watching the last ever Five Nations game at Wembley with my 12 year old brother, and having to a group of eight or nine English idiots, nay reprobates, constantly tell me and my brother that my country was merely a part of England, and we had no right to even play them, and making various sheep based jokes. This to two kids who didnt even know what they were going on about!!! This continued up until the 79th minute, when the genius Scott Gibbs scored the best try Ive ever had the fortune to see, converted by the Ginger Monster. Despite their onslaught, the unsporting so and so's didnt even have the humility to give us our moment of glory, adding snootily ''Well weve still won the Five Nations'', alas the Scottish had won it!!!
So yes, some of us do remember the arrogance shown by some Englanders, and do rejoice when we can rub their finely moisturised, and Barbour-wearing bodies in it.
Mike(Half English, but 100% Welsh rugby fan)
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As an Irishman I'm amazed that so many of my fellow countrymen have jumped on board the anti-England bandwagon. Maybe they've forgotten one very important year in our RUGBY history. The year 1973. After our "Celtic cousins" had refused to travel to Dublin the previous season, due to security fears (and perhaps the minor matter that Ireland, having won in both Paris and Twickenham were on for a rare GS). Mercifully France came over to bail the IRFU out financially in 1972, but it was feared that the entire 5-Nations Championship would collapse if England decided not to fulfil the fixture at Lansdowne Road in '73.
Fulfil it they did and I will never forget (even watching on B/W television the emotion came through) the sustained 10 minute applause that greeted these sporting heroes from England. I forget the captains' name that day but his post-match remark "We might not be very good, but at least we turn up" has gone down in rugby lore.
I resolved that henceforth, as far as rugby was concerned, my "second" team would be England. Something that has been re-inforced through the years with successive visits by English teams and their fantastic rugby supporters to Thomond Park for European Cup matches. Not least the sporting and knowlegeable Leicester fans who deservedly took Munster's record recently. And those of Gloucester, Bath, Sale, et al who must be among the most gracious and sporting of rugby fans anywhere.
In conclusion, I feel that the "soccer" influence is creeping into the game with chanting, boo-ing of kickers and inane comments from people who think they are at a social event and feel that admission to the grond entitles them to engage in all types of abusive behaviour. This is fast replacing the respect, cameraderie and good humoured banter that was part and parcel of International rugby. No one should defend it by closing their eyes and ears to this when it comes from sections of their own "support", best to clamp down on these people now.
PPS: To Arash, who maintained a "Munster" fan sitting next to him was causing trouble at Gloucester. Given that you established he had bothered to travel all the way over to cheer against Leinster on the same w/e that Munster had a vital home fixture, I agree he would indeed qualify as someone who had issues well beyond my remit, but surely there were enough of you there able to put manners on this guy or call the Stewards if he was causing trouble. I was at the ML game in December between Munster and Leinster and the atmosphere generated by both sets of fans was exemplary - including complete silence for ALL penalty kicks -and I was on the same Terrace as the Leinster contingent. Perhaps your last sentence reveals more about your own prejudice, when you became this mans' altar ego in a way!. Observing a clown doesn't justify becoming one.
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The Six Nations tournament is fantastic, and I say this as a foreigner living in England. I have been to all locations, except Ireland which I hear is one of the best, and the only place I will not go back to is Murrayfield. As England is where I have always lived, I support them without fail and Murrayfield was the only place if encountered hostility. I just can't understand the resentment, it just seems such a waste of time. My English friends used to cheer for the other home nations when they played France or Italy but that now seems to have changed. It is a pity, but rugby is still a game that inspires passion and I love it. I hope the people never really change and this is only a blip because of talk of devolution, as rugby fans have always been fun and tolerant. The Six Nations and Heineken cup are what helps me get through the winter months!
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I remember being at Murrayfield in 2000 listening to some arogant english about how they expected to turn up and get the GS , at thened they quietly disppeared without so much as a well done
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It is sad when stereotypes are all that people see. 'Arrogant' English etc. The real attitudes are different one-on-one but crowds bring out the worst in each home nation's fans - the Fench excepted. Don't know quite whether John's memory is quite as good as he thinks though. I can remember some fairly aggressive Welshmen back in the 1960's - and some thoroughly charming ones as well.
Some things don't help - the Scottish team of Gavin Hastings wearing Australian shirts to the World Cup Final at Twickenham isn't likely to endear the Scots to the English and the dreadful pantomime that Murrayfield puts on before a Calcutta Cup game isn't too clever, either.
Let's all abandon the name-calling, the football-type chants and the stereotypes and remain true rugby fans. After all, if we all behave with mutual respect, humour and decency to each other, as we have done in the main, the (currently small) minority of morons of every nationality, again I except the French, will be squeezed out.
One quick memory that encapsulates the difference between Rugby and Football. One year we went to Paris, the Rugby International was on a Saturday after an England-France Football International had been played the preceding Wednesday. Jacques Chirac, then Mayor of Paris, had the riot police out in force for the rugby match. The French supporters thought this hilarious. During the game, in which England were comprehensively thrashed, the noise was indescribable. Walking away from the stadium afterwards there was simply a hum of conversation. Couldn't get into any of the bars around the ground as they full of riot police raising a glass or three!
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cuckoo land. Mon the scots!
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cuckoo land. Mon the scots!
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Last year I proudly wore my Scotland shirt while watching the Calcutta cup match with some English work buddies in a pub in Bath. There were only 2 of us small lasses supporting Scotland at the beginning of the game but by then end there were quite a few more cheering our boys on, with quite varying accents. The only trouble I encountered was from a hacked off looking barmaid who came up to me and told me to be quiet... not something I find easy at the best of times and no one else in the pub was bothered by my cheering either. Anyhow, the Scots won, I was congratulated by many an Englishman and after a few tears from both sides into our pints of the black stuff, a good night was had by all. If there was any increase in bigotry within the supporters of the game I certainly would not have felt comfortable being such a lonely blue in a sea of white. I'm just sad that I won't be able to attend the rematch this year!
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I agree with post no.134. This is trying to tell a story about a problem that does not exist. We are not seeing an inevitable progression from the 'good old days' to a soccer-type atmosphere at matches at all. No doubt there have always been the occasional supporters who have taken a healthy sense of competition too far, but I have certainly seen no sign of a more general depreciation in behaviour.
A brief story to illustrate the point. I was at the Wales/England 6N game two years ago, and as usual, myself and my wife were standing in the square outside the 'Owen Glendower' pub in Cardiff, drinking alcohol in company with a host of both Welsh and English fans. A welshman walked past with a look of real hatred on his face - shouted 'English b_____ds!' as he walked by. He was looked on with as much contempt by the Welsh rugby fans as he was by the English ( all of whom looked a bit bemused by it all). He wore a Cardiff City football shirt, and, beedless to say, was not attending Millenium Stadium that afternoon.
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thats right the celtic culture was spread throughout europe even as far as spain,but was spread to the brittish isles from Gaul(modern day France)
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I agree that all of this is being blown out of proportion. Britain is currently experiencing a wave of increased nationalism (English, Welsh and Scottish) for reasons that are irrelevant to rugby. Britain also seems to be in a state of manic paranoia about "racism", for reasons that are again irrelevant to rugby. I am a Welsh supporter through and through, but I am not a nationalist; I am inclined to support other teams against England, but I am not racist in that I harbour no ill-feeling towards the English. This is the kind of attitude that has existed for many years, and rarely has it led to ugly, football-style confrontation. There is a small minority from all 6 nations who exhibit nasty, genuinely offensive behaviour. But we MUST recognise the vast difference between fierce national rivalry, and incitement to racial (national) hatred. Long may the former continue, for it is that which makes the 6 nations such a great competition. The media must not be allowed to sterilise it by confusing the two, and thus tarring patriotic rugby fans with the same despicable brush as nationalist bigots.
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the reason for the England fans saying that us welsh are a part of England is because we are thanks to the union act that took place under the rule of Henry VIII. that is why Wales are not represented in the union flag.(not to justify the unsporting behaviour of those few idiots, but not everyone is like that.)
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The fact that we are having this debate says something. People do feel pretty strongly on each side. Far too strongly in some cases as I unfortunately witnessed last year. So after a lifetime of playing and watching I have done the unthinkable; I've given away my tickets for Saturday.
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John Beattie talked about stupid songs from some Ulster supporters in Glasgow.
Some of them had a bad behaviour in Toulouse in the last HC game.
Sorry for the real good fan supporters from Ulster but some of them seem to be really daft.
Maybe because they do not have a professionnal Football team to support!
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John Bettie is a unionist. Say NO MORE.
IN this world today we need to be strong, not cow tow to London. Scotland is a Country as any other (apart from Independence)and we need to want to win so much that we disregard the opposition. This is the flaw. To be a part of the uk means that we treat our opposition as firends and 'jolly good fun', well that des not cut it.
John Beetie, get that union jack away from you and support Scotland 100% that means NO FRIENDS.
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John Bettie is a unionist. Say NO MORE.
IN this world today we need to be strong, not cow tow to London. Scotland is a Country as any other (apart from Independence)and we need to want to win so much that we disregard the opposition. This is the flaw. To be a part of the uk means that we treat our opposition as firends and 'jolly good fun', well that des not cut it.
John Beetie, get that union jack away from you and support Scotland 100% that means NO FRIENDS.
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To all of us true Rugby fans we owe it to ourselves to ensure we dont go down the road of football rivalry. So c'mon all the Scots, Irish, Welsh, French & English supporters carry on passing the hip flasks, singing the songs and celebrating / comiserating the wins and defeats. We and only we can maintain the spirit of rugby!
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Last year I went to the Calcutta Cup for the first time, as an Irish fan with an English accent living and playing in Scotland. The night before the game I got some stick from Scots who assumed I was an English fan and berated me for an assumed arrogance. Most of them got beyond the knee-jerk hostility after I started talking rugby with them.
The next day I, wearing my Irish shirt, met up with a couple of mates, in a Wales and England shirt respectively, in a pub on Rose Street and, in common with everyone in the place, supported Italy against France. After the singing of Flower of Scotland led by a chap from the SRU wearing a kilt and an England shirt, I baited the English contingent ("Can we hear the English sing...") into a rendition of Swing Low. Fair being fair, I then led the company in Molly Malone and the Wild Rover. The least said about my friend's rendition of something in Welsh the better, but it did spark someone else to start the pub singing Delilah. (A note to Huw, the football fan @ comment 54, we were in the pub for hours, packed as tightly as any pre-all-seater stadium terrace, knocking back pints and the occassional single malt for 3 or 4 hours without a hint of trouble, nor was there any at the game; I think your rugby fans + drinking = inevitable trouble point is way off the mark.) Then onto the ground, via quick pint and a wee dram in the British Legion, and with the combination of a green and a red shirt attracting a lot of good natured comments about being in the wrong city. Luckily, I'd spent enough time soaking up the real rugby atmosphere before the game to miss the pre-match nonsense on the pitch and proceded to enjoy the game and the craic afterwards.
What to make of it? Rugby has of late attracted a lot of attention from those not part of rugby culture (which transcends nationality while getting a lot of fun out of the national rivalries). I suspect a lot of the negativity observed comes from these people rather than dyed-in-the-wool rugby folk. The best antidote is to expose them to the camarderie and good spirit which is still an integral part of the game. I'm also firmly in favour of proper singing rather then chanting; everyone can join in in the pub or club, even if it's not your nation's song, celebrating rugby. Hopelesddly optimistic? Possibly; but I'm still hoping a friend of mine can get me on the London Welsh coach to Cardiff for the Wales - Ireland game, and my biggest worry if she does is whether I'll keep up drinking with the Welsh... no, on second thoughts as an Irish prop I've no fear...
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During the last 60 years I have found a great sympathy between supporters of both union and league sides. Many times I have left Twickenham and Wembley in parties containing both colours, all in a good mood whatever the result. I do see a change in recent years, certainly with Australians ('who don't know how to take a win'), but not New Zealanders, South Africans etc. In Europe, I have always been anti-French as they have, until recently always had to play a UK (with apologies to S. Ireland) team, whom I support. It pains me that Scots particularly, would sooner see England lose to anybody than give their support and I am sure devolution is an underlying fact. If England are not playing then my colours will be attached to another British side and if that fails then, Ireland!! Just joking!
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I think a lot of people get a little precious about this whole Scotland/England rivalry in sport. The fact is that virtually wherever you go in world sport there are local rivalries. I follow football closely, and I recall that when Arsenal played Barcelona in the European Cup final last year there were Tottenham fans (Arsenal's local rivals) going out to buy Barcelona strips/flags etc. It's an absolute fallacy to claim that Scots are obliged to support England in sport because England are their neighbours (or indeed vice versa) because it barely happens anywhere on the planet.
I also do not personally object to this sort of rivalry, so long as it essentially remains good-natured (if competitive). Admittedly, things can become unpleasant when taken to an extremity - but I firmly believe that these instances are very much in the minority.
Furthermore, I firmly reject any suggestion of a correlation of a 'rise in anti-English feeling' in Scotland and Devolution. This is for no other reason than I do not perceive there to have been any 'rise in anti-English feeling' in Scotland since 1999. Devolution has allowed Scotland to take a lot more responsibility for their affairs (which was a lot of the point of Devolution), and therefore Scots are now far more ready to look at themselves for explanation for their problems, whereas before simply 'blaming the English' was all too easy. Scots have gone through periodic spells of 鈥榖laming the English鈥 throughout their history, but I firmly believe that now is not one of them.
Perhaps, in some quarters, there has been more vocal resentment in England towards Scotland since Devolution, because of the West Lothian question etc, but that's another matter.
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Lets get something straight shall we, most of the people in England aren't Anglo-Saxon, Anglo-Celtic is a better description, the vast majority of the Roman Army in "Briton" was made of locals and as for 1066, the "Bretons" were merely reclaiming what had been taken by the minority of Saxons. (and now to sit back and wait for the onslaught)
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There is only one answer. England Scotland Wales and N.Ireland should seperate and become independent countries.
Then we can have rugby without all this British nonsense.
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I am European, with Scottish, Welsh, English and German blood. I was born and bred in Scotland, going to 1 of the top Scottish Schools for rugby. I have always supported Wales and Scotland equally, my Mum is "from" Wales, Dad "from" Scotland.
I have been brought up with an open-mind in terms of rivalries against the English and the other Six Nations teams. The times I have been to Murrayfield to support Scotland against...I have felt that the England supporters are more arrogant and and fiercely against the non-English. I was there in 2000 and again last year when "we" beat them, some people left the ground both times before the whistle, but they still call themselves supporters. We enjoy the celebrations while they last. I have been going to Murrayfield regularly for almost 10 years now and the majority of the scots supporting Scotland have kept their chins up and not booing their own countrymen like happened at Twickernham over the Autumn tests. Every Scot wants to put 1 over the English. I have been to all other matches against the other nations and there doesn't seem to be the animosity between the rival supporters as there is when the English come up to play. We don't turn on our own players, we are always the under-dogs, it has been fantastic over the past few months with Frank Hadden at the helm. I have been at uni in England for the past 7 years now (I have an English fiance) and I despise the animosity towards me being the only Scot on my courses and at the rugby clubs I have joined, I come home to Scotland to watch the Scotland-England matches on TV or go to the match, I don't feel welcome in a pub watching the match being the only Scotland supporter! I should feel welcome in my own country.
With other "rival" supporters that doesn't happen, with the french we have "the auld alliance" and with the welsh and the irish supporters we are all friendly celts to each other. The italians are always fellow under-dogs. I am happy to wear my welsh top with a scottish t-shirt underneath or vice-versa. I am proud to be Celtic!
Why do the English supporters turn on their players or leave the ground when they are losing? An air of arrogance maybe?
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I agree with the general consensus on this thread however, some of the things said still rile me up. Being an Irishman living in Australia I have come to believe that the Australian people are a whole lot worse than the English when it comes to gloating and 'Arrogant' comments. I truly believe 99% of English rugby fans are not arrogant but it is the media and constant rubbish from english commentators that are the problem. I even found myself shouting for England when they played the Aussies here last Autumn (unimaginable for an Irishman I know)
As for the comment made earlier that Ireland should fly the union jack and stand to gstq at a one of game in Ravenhill is just offensive. Im also sick of Irelands Call and a flag with a random selection of shamrock on it being flown,,,, here is a way we can fix it,,,, we should ask all players from 'Northern Irelnd' (not Ulster as there are counties of Ulster which are in the Republic) if they are happy to stand to the Republics national anthem and face the tricolour. If not then they can be graciously dropped and thanked for their contribution. All Im doing is suggesting a way to keep everyone happy which is what the previous poster wanted!
Also can we please stop including Ireland in the '成人快手 Nations' or the British Isles,,, This is not only offensive but geographically incorrect.
Anyway,,,, with all that said of all the games I have been to home and away I can honestly say they are the best of days and have enjoyed the company of people from all nations.
Ireland for the slam
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In the 51 years since the Ireland team has played exclusively in Dublin every Ulster player has conducted himself respectfully on the playing of the national anthem of the Republic as a tribute to the country hosting the match. As have the thousands of Ulster folk who make the trip to Dublin to cheer them on. A F's question need not be put to any Ulsterman currently asked to have the honour of representing Ireland. What a shame this petty little man cannot fathom similar courtesy from his fellow Southern Irishmen. I hope he is not representative of Southern rugby fans.
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I am always heartened to read rugby blogs and find the majority expressing sensible views, with only the minority of idiots. However, the minority does seem to be getting larger. Thankfully still, for the majority it is still about the rugby and long may it last.
The more I read the more I realise how ignorant of their history people are. The Scots bring up pathetic "Braveheart" analogies (forgetting that he was fighting a Norman (Edward I), for a Norman (Balliol) who was being challenged by another Norman (de Bruce)) and the Irish remember every time they had a bad year, thinking what happened 80, 100, 200 years ago have any relevance to today. When are these people going to learn to live in the present?
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Sean - it's called history and it's important to most people. Before you read the rest of this, I should say i'm a Scot who lives in England.
It's actually impossible to support your team without being nationalistic by definition. It crosses the line when some idiot hits a Scots born kiwi kid in a park because he's wearing an England football top, or drags a disabled guy out of his car because he's flying an England flag etc.
But ironically, given how vocal they are in complaining about our alledged behaviour towards them, the English are usually the most nationalistic sports supporters of all!
Believe me, their football fans laid waste to Germany last Summer in a way only the Poles came close to matching (and they went home after 2 weeks whereas the English assault was sutained). Speak to any German and they will tell you the fans they dreaded and hated the most were the English. It was a spectacular piece of public relations engineering which kept the true nature of their behaviour out of the press and won them awards, and hatred of germans motivated much of their behaviour. Yeah, but that was football - this is rugby and those rough, lower class chavs tend not to be so interested in our delightful middle class game, you may say.
Not true. A fair proportion of those same people will be populating the pubs this Saturday howling like baboons and throwing beer about in front of the big screen. Let's just say it's unlikely they;ll be of a friendly disposition to anybody in a Scotland shirt.
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It is good to see that Frank Hadden has buried the hatchet towards the English. As a sign of the growing warmth between the camps he has decided to pick an Englishmen in the second row for Scotland. This is good of him and should save the Scotish RFU an airfare as James will only have to travel down from Leicester.
As a Tigers fan, it is good of him to give our 4th choice 2nd row a run out as he has not been selected recently.
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I have to agree, I have got some concerns with rugby fans values to the game and each other. There is no doubt that it is changing and for the worse. I have seen a number of games this season in the Magners L eague and have lost count how many times certain fans have started shouting 'cheat cheat cheat '( Ulster and the Ospreys seem to be the worse ) at the Ref when things not going their way. This is soccer values, not something I want rugby to become. Rugby used to pride its self on its values and how we respected all parts of the game, IRB and cetan clubs have a huge responsibility to ensure we dont go down soocers path and that new fans to the game are informed of rugby's values. If they dont like it - watch another sport !
I just wish all fans could be as respectfull as the Munster crowd. You could hear a pin drop when the away team are kicking at goal. Munster fans - you should be very proud.
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I had my first ever 6 nations away-day in London-Welsh last year. Granted it was more like home from home for a Wales international but the best part of the weekend was had at a pub across from Richmond underground station.
Inside was a great mix of Welsh and English fans as well as a healthy dose of non-rugby locals. We proceeded to chat, drink and sing the night away with a few geordies (who'd travelled further than us for a home match!), some local folk and a smattering of Welsh support.
Next week we're off to Scotland and if the locals are half as friendly it'll be more than worth it. Especially if Wales win!
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John - From the ignorant minority on this website and others, history obviously isn't important or they would get it right! As I point out, these historical points are continually dragged out to justify the venom of the bigots the majority on this site have condemned. Further, history is frequently distorting and often falsified to satisfy bigoted, xenophobic feelings. I am not arguing there are idiots everywhere, but by allowing this petty regurgitation of, often inaccurate, interpretations of single events in history gives validation to these idiots. In England we don't tend to give it a justification for the idiocy of the fans. Perhaps there should be a Culloden reenactment at Twickernham this weekend?
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In response to Ed.
Firstly I apologise for getting the wrong end of the stick as regards your earlier comments. Secondly its nice to have a debate with someone that seems to have a bit of brains.
In response to your questions:
There was always going to be complaints from certain sections if Amhrann na bhFiann was sung at Ravenhill. And certain political parties did have there 2 bits after the decision was made. It was a tough decision for the IRFU, I think they choose the safe option, but I would like to have seen this occasion used as an example of what our community is like now.
I do consider Amhran na bhFiann as an anthem for Ireland, as it would be recognised worldwide. However as with a growing number of people in the Republic I think we are approaching a time when it should be changed. Whereas I'm proud of its roots& what it stands for, I think we have reached a time in history where it needs to be less milataristic, anti-English& more inclusive of all the people of Ireland, as was the ideal of the 1916 proclaimation (apologies for the politics).
As for supporting an Ireland team, I always will no matter how good or bad we are. But I think your point on supporting them at Ravenhill with GSTQ& the Union flag is a situation that could never take place. An Irish team that largely is made up of Irish citizens could hardly play under the flag of a union they're not part of& an anthem that is not theirs. I know that your trying to get at the point that many Ulster fans do the same at the minute, but I think its a slightly different situation. We'll probably agree to disagree!
Do you know if the NI soccer team still play GSTQ as their anthem? I have been told that this is officially the British Anthem& that land of Hope& Glory is the English, but I always found it strange that England& NI played the same song.
As for another national flag, I think the tricolour is the most representative flag we've got. Although I'm sure it could be taken that way a lot easier by your community if it wasn't hung up on lamposts marking out territories in certain areas of the North.
I hope I've anwered all your questions. Any other points let me know.
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In quick response to post 114. I was born& bread on the Falls Rd in Belfast& I read your comments with some interest. Living in the most Republican area of Belfast I can safely say you are exaggerating some points& being oversensitive in others. Yes whenever England are in a tournament we aren't, we cheer on the other team. It for the most part is a rivalry& a bit of banter. We don't all rush out& buy Argentina tops! It's the same in any of the other home nations who like to see the old colonial power get its commuppance! For the huge majority there is no hatred, its part of us all living in close proximity.
As for the Queen Mother part, I can't deny that it hasn't been written, but to say it was all over Belfast! Come on! A few walls at most, by some depraved teens with spray paint cans that don't have any part in our community& could do with a good shoeing!
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I have lived in England for 18 years and the only significantly unpleasant experience was a mistaken visit to Twickenham in the early 90s where the braying arrogance of drunken City types was as hard to stomach as the result. There has recently been an upsurge in anti-Scottish rhetoric in the media down here but its more linked to Conservative electoral calculations than sport. But cloud cuckoo land is the belief that devolution has increased Scottish anti-English sentiment. Thatcher was the catalyst, unfortunately. And if you want to see cheerful rivalry try visiting Dublin when England roll in. In spite of all the political history, and Croke Park which will provide a magnificent arena for this years match was the scene of a massacre of Irish civilians by British troops, independent Ireland now gets on better with England than ever. A lesson for us perhaps?
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Just one further point. What John, and the other "Celts" on these websites fail to realise is that the English, in a country of immigration, usually have relatives from the emmigrant countries around us. I for one have close relatives from all over the British Isles and Ireland and am not unique. So, therefore, we tend to (increasingly used to) support which ever of the home nations is playing. The "Celts" (a racist term in it's own right to distinguish these countries from England) are or were some of the most ethnically pure countries in Europe and therefore explains some of the xenophobic opinions of certain sections of these countries. Sadly, we are starting to see anti "Celt" feelings creep into England. Something I, for one, am not particularly proud.
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In response to Sean - you'll find Scottish people and the Scottish press don't generally condone mass abuse heaped on English fans, particularly in the incidences where it has turned violent (usually football related, rather than rugby).
But english fans are no angels!
As for Jamie Hamilton - his dad's a scot, I also don't think he's Leicester's number 4 choice lock either! Why d'you think leo Cullen is going back to leinster?
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As an Ulsterman living in England I'm a bit shocked by all the negative comments about our crowds. While I haven't been to matches recently, I've always found that the crowds at ravenhill were passionate yet just as respectful as any other, with the whole stadium deathly quiet whenever kicks were taken. As for the banter, yes we give it, but we're prepared to take it as well and anyone who finds it offensive obviously doesn't understand our dark humour that comes from growing up in country at war with itself.
As for the Soldiers Song being sung at the national games, I've never had a massive problem with it, however it is fairly indicitive of the IRFU's bias against us northerners. Many Ulster players have played under the Republics tricolour and stood for their national anthem out of respect. Shame that they cannot extend the same curtesy to us. Hardly surprising though when you consider the dominant anti-british sentiments that underpin the Irish Republic as a whole.
As for AF, Ireland is part of the British Isles, get over it.
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As an Ulsterman living in England I'm a bit shocked by all the negative comments about our crowds. While I haven't been to matches recently, I've always found that the crowds at ravenhill were passionate yet just as respectful as any other, with the whole stadium deathly quiet whenever kicks were taken. As for the banter, yes we give it, but we're prepared to take it as well and anyone who finds it offensive obviously doesn't understand our dark humour that comes from growing up in country at war with itself.
As for the Soldiers Song being sung at the national games, I've never had a massive problem with it, however it is fairly indicitive of the IRFU's bias against us northerners. Many Ulster players have played under the Republics tricolour and stood for their national anthem out of respect. Shame that they cannot extend the same curtesy to us. Hardly surprising though when you consider the dominant anti-british sentiments that underpin the Irish Republic as a whole.
As for AF, Ireland is part of the British Isles, get over it.
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John - I appreciate that English soccer fans are no angels and believe I alluded to that, but digging up incidence of soccer hooliganism (a Scottish invention, I believe) adds nothing to this thread on rugby but more to your deeper issues? Thanks. When I make the point that (inaccurate) history is frequently used as an excuse for xenophobia you reply with a lecture on English football hooliganism. I've never seen the English fans regurgitate Culloden or other victories over the Scots at any rugby or football game. So, why do a significant number of Scots feel the need to dig up something that happened 700 years ago if it is not to stir up racial intolerance? I appreciate the "official" line in Scotland may be toward tolerance but it glosses over an unsavoury anti English vein that is quite pervasive and not totally restricted to football hooligans and yobs. Read your original comments. The SRFU's, and other official channels, may have painted the re enactment of Braveheart as just "good fun" but knows it stirs up the unsavoury elements within Scotland and runs rough shod over the sensitivities of the visiting nation. So, the "Celts" watching would have no problems with the reenactments of past victories over them before games? And there would not be a vicious back lash?
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"As for AF, Ireland is part of the Bristish Isles, et over it"
Eh David B I dont know how you can get it so wrong!!
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John - I appreciate that English soccer fans are no angels and believe I alluded to that, but digging up incidence of soccer hooliganism (a Scottish invention, I believe) adds nothing to this thread on rugby but more to your deeper issues? Thanks. When I make the point that (inaccurate) history is frequently used as an excuse for xenophobia you reply with a lecture on English football hooliganism. I've never seen the English fans regurgitate Culloden or other victories over the Scots at any rugby or football game. So, why do a significant number of Scots feel the need to dig up something that happened 700 years ago if it is not to stir up racial intolerance? I appreciate the "official" line in Scotland may be toward tolerance but it glosses over an unsavoury anti English vein that is quite pervasive and not totally restricted to football hooligans and yobs. Read your original comments. The SRFU's, and other official channels, may have painted the re enactment of Braveheart as just "good fun" but knows it stirs up the unsavoury elements within Scotland and runs rough shod over the sensitivities of the visiting nation. This is the typical double speak of the closet xenophobes. Stoke the flames with one hand and wag your finger with the other when the flames catch. Then say publicly "of course we don't condone these actions".
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"Ireland is part of the British Isles, get over it"
David B that statement is so wrong I dont even know where to begin!
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In response to post 197 by David B I would just like to take issue with the idea that "a dominant anti-British sentiment somehow underpins the Irish Republic". Perhaps you should take a trip to Dublin some weekend where you can would notice the countless numbers of visitors to Dublin from our neighbouring island who mix effortlessly with the locals. A recent survey carried out by the British tourist boards found that Dublin is now the most popular destination for short breaks by English people.Obviously they are unaware of the sentiment which you have just described.
With regard to the fact that the Soldiers song is sung before internationals in Dublin this is due to the fact that Dublin is the capital city of the Republic of Ireland and the national anthem of that state just happens to be the soldiers song. You will note also that in recent times the song Irelands Call has been adopted in attempt to include those of the Northern protestant tradition more entirely. You may or may not be aware that in days gone by Ireland played home internationals at Ravenhill where the Irish National Anthem was God Save the Queen with no allowance made to those players from the South.
Perhaps what you mistake for anti-Britishness in the South is actually an attitude which is displayed when face to face with bigots such as yourself (Trevor Brennan comes to mind)
I would be grateful if any of our British neghbours could back me up on this just in case anybody is put off travelling to Dublin for this years 6 nations as a result of the rantings of one individual.
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"Ireland is part of the British Isles, get over it"
David B that statement is so wrong I dont even know where to begin!
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I think that they should play GSTQ at Ravenhill V Italy. IRFU shame on you for cowardice. It's only fair.
I'm a Galway man by the way, from the Repubulican tradition, but I would never think of letting politics enter into any sports or get in the way of a good session of drinking and singing.
Personally "anyone but..." team at the minute is NZ. England used to be for a while, but now I feel sorry for them so find it hard not to root for them...especially against France or an SH team.
The only trouble I've ever experienced at a game was when I went to the bar in Newcastle and got a bit of hassle from Ulster fans (don't know why they were even there but...). Connacht may not be the most successful province (which makes it even more difficult to take criticism), but I have to say there has never been any trouble at the games. Heckling is limitied to donkey noises when the full back misses a high ball. haha :)
Never seen trouble at an international (hurrah!)
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John - I appreciate that English soccer fans are no angels and believe I alluded to that, but digging up incidence of soccer hooliganism (a Scottish invention, I believe) adds nothing to this thread on rugby but more to your deeper issues? Thanks. When I make the point that (inaccurate) history is frequently used as an excuse for xenophobia you reply with a lecture on English football hooliganism. I've never seen the English fans regurgitate Culloden or other victories over the Scots at any rugby or football game. So, why do a significant number of Scots feel the need to dig up something that happened 700 years ago if it is not to stir up racial intolerance? I appreciate the "official" line in Scotland may be toward tolerance but it glosses over an unsavoury anti English vein that is quite pervasive and not totally restricted to football hooligans and yobs. Read your original comments. The SRFU's, and other official channels, may have painted the re enactment of Braveheart as just "good fun" but knows it stirs up the unsavoury elements within Scotland and runs rough shod over the sensitivities of the visiting nation. This is the typical double speak of the closet xenophobes. Stoke the flames with one hand and wag your finger with the other when the flames catch maintaining that you don't condone the actions of the idiot minority.
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"Ireland is part of the British Isles, get over it"
David B that statement is so wrong I dont even know where to begin!
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David B and other Ulstermen who think the IRFU are disrespecting them:
I posted this on the other thread about Croke Park where there is some discussion about the playing of anthems at rugby matches.
----
I just did a search for the words of "Ireland's Call" on the internet and came across a little background information which might be of interest to you (Wikipedia):
"At matches played in the REPUBLIC, both Amhr谩n na bhFiann (as the anthem of the host nation) and Ireland's Call (as the anthem of the home team) are sung. ELSEWHERE, Ireland's Call is the only anthem used."
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Even though I'm from Munster (a Republican hotbed in some Ulstermen's minds!) I would prefer GSTQ to Ireland's Call for Ireland v. Italy game in NI, but I don't think I would go - the chances of a fraca starting between the extremists of the two communities within Northern Ireland is high!
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I think there is a place for friendly rivalry in all sports and Rugby is one of the best examples of this.
I am Welsh and like nothing better than getting one over on our friends the other side of the river Severn.
However my Brother-in-law is an Englishman although we may wind each other up it is nothing more than friendly banter.
Thank goodness we dont have the violence that seems to go hand in hand with Football.
If you want to represent your local club in poker, have some friendly banter and a chance to represent your nation then go to www.rugbypokerclub.com and enter bonus code 35107.
Let make the world a friendlier place!
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I think there is a place for friendly rivalry in all sports and Rugby is one of the best examples of this.
I am Welsh and like nothing better than getting one over on our friends the other side of the river Severn.
However my Brother-in-law is an Englishman although we may wind each other up it is nothing more than friendly banter.
Thank goodness we dont have the violence that seems to go hand in hand with Football.
If you want to represent your local club in poker, have some friendly banter and a chance to represent your nation then go to www.rugbypokerclub.com and enter bonus code 35107.
Let make the world a friendlier place!
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I think post the World Cup, English Rugby has attracted a more mainstream fan and because of that some of the football attitude had started to cross-over. Hopefully England's recent (and hopefully over) problems will have dealt with that!
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i think it shamefull that as a rugby lover since about 5 that a rugby player was driven to violence by fans rugby is a game for fans to get along not beat each other up and taunt players
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Pedro, I would have few worries on that score. Tens of thousands of English rugby fans have voted with their feet down through the years and Dublin is a favourite destination for many, on top of that more have followed their clubs to the same city for Leinster games, to Thomond Park and memorable European rugby week-ends in Limerick. Some have even ventured to Galway for the Challenge Cup. Few if any will have witnessed what David B hopes they would find - this "dominant anti-British unpinning of the Irish Republic" is manifest in this mans mind. It's more than his humour is dark when it comes to mentioning the Republic. And to refer to the IRFU's alleged "bias" against Northerners...take that one up with Syd Millar of Ballymena, David, he pulls more strings in that body than anyone else. We have him to thank for "Ireland's Call"/The UN? flag(or whatever it is) at the World Cup and away games and soon a 50/50 green and white jersey to compliment the Ireland-Ulster tag for the team which has been creeping in. He's gotten quite a bit for NI since his attempt for Ulster to join the then Zurich Premiership was rejected some seasons back. Are you suggesting the team should be picked on a "quota" system now rather than one of merit?
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ENGLAND ARE QUA GOOD?
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DennisL....I very much doubt you are 'a true Galway man from the Republic tradition'. I love my rugby, but I have to be honest and say that I would 'never' stand for GSTQ.....of course, I being a true Dublin man from the 'true' republican tradition. Ireland's call should be the only song played for Rugby internationals!!
btw I feel very sorry for people like David post 199.
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Sadly Pedro, whilst I agree it is getting better, there is significant anti English/British feeling still in the South that baffles me. Granted it's not the agressive, in your face, type you see from a significant minority of Scots and slightly less so, the Welsh. But it is there. Hung out with plenty of young Irishmen during the 2002 world cup. My English mates and I went and supported Ireland in all their games. A few of my Irish mates could be seen smarting and just staying mute during English games, evidently wishing for a loss but not willing to insult their friends. Comments of "there's an IRA man in every village in Ireland" were also used. Then look at the GAA's attitude, which thankfully has changed, but to not allow "British" sports (they allowed American Football and combined rules) is symptomatic of that. Look at some of the comments on the Croke park blog as well. But you are right, it is typically politer and less common.
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I must confess I'm staggered by the "they're all a bunch of..." and "we're perfect, you're not" comments. The bottom line is, in any crowd, city, classroom, group of people, there are elements who do not accurately reflect the feelings/opinions of the vast majority of the group. What we're talking about is the odd one or two tosspots who drink too much, think they're a hero and insist on telling everyone how fantastic they are because they come from a certain area or believe a certain thing. It's not about rugby or football (by the way, football hooliganism actually originates in South America...1930s I think - we're so up ourselves in our "Britishness" that we've forgotten there's a whole world out there). It's about peer pressure. If those quiet souls standing around the offensive rowdies were to stand up on their hind legs and tell Mr (or Mrs) Drivel to shut up, less offence would be taken by the object of the comment. We're all to blame. Moral? When at the game or in the bar afterwards, don't forget your social responsibilities. Easy.
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I must confess I'm staggered by the "they're all a bunch of..." and "we're perfect, you're not" comments. The bottom line is, in any crowd, city, classroom, group of people, there are elements who do not accurately reflect the feelings/opinions of the vast majority of the group. What we're talking about is the odd one or two tosspots who drink too much, think they're a hero and insist on telling everyone how fantastic they are because they come from a certain area or believe a certain thing. It's not about rugby or football (by the way, football hooliganism actually originates in South America...1930s I think - we're so up ourselves in our "Britishness" that we've forgotten there's a whole world out there). It's about peer pressure. If those quiet souls standing around the offensive rowdies were to stand up on their hind legs and tell Mr (or Mrs) Drivel to shut up, less offence would be taken by the object of the comment. We're all to blame. Moral? When at the game or in the bar afterwards, don't forget your social responsibilities. Easy.
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In response to post 187 - Steve
This 'Petty Little Man' was making a tongue in cheek remark in response to a previous posters comments in relation to the Irish team standing to gstq & the union jack in Ravenhill. I would never ask the Northern Players to 'pick sides' as such, but was merely making a mockery of a previous ridiculous comment.
Perhaps Steve you should brush up on your 'Tongue in Cheek' skills and realise the context of a post before you reply to it with such candour.
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I fear that JB is right in his views. Lighthearted banter has always been there and that makes for good sport and honest rivalry, but I feel that as the ever increasing profile with our sport continues to grow, especially with more inter-nation club competitions, I feel it will attract an undesireable football type culture. I'm Welsh, living in England and take my children to support our local club Worcester without any worries. However, at a recent Worcester vs Dragons game, there were many expletives aimed at the opposition (2 British Lions), by a small minority. Yet at an autumn series game against SA at the Millenium, I found myself amongst hundreds of highly passionate SA fans and never heard anything remotely offensive, likewise with the NZ fans. True fans of a wonderful sport and I hope it stays that way.
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Re: 199
When will people from Northern Ireland realise that they only constitute 66% of Ulster? If you are talking about accuracy (Ireland being part of the British Isles) then please practice what you preach. By the way Amhr谩n na bhFiann is an all-ireland anthem and always has been, Ireland's Call has been used to placate certain elements from Northern Ireland who insist on emphasising the differences between Orange and Green. The tricolour could not be a more unifying emblem given that it symbolises the peace between the two cultures unlike the Union flag which does not recognise the green of Ireland at all.
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As a french resident (irish national), I agree with the different writers suggesting the english supporters and team suffer from backlash to an arrogant media. I now generally support most teams that come up against France partially as a reaction to the french media here, partially due to a natural tendancy to favour underdogs. This includes England.
- wonder how many get this far...
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David B:
Ireland is traditionally referred to as part of the British Isles because it is the British that called it such. Even Northern Ireland isn't part of Great Britain, hence the term The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
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I think things have changed for rugby and can well remember in the 80's standing at Murrayfield where friendly banter was exchanged but a very definite code of behaviour was adhered too. For example conversions and penalty kicks at goals where watched in silence with respect for the kicker but how things have changed these days with supporters of all sides booing and cheering as the kickers make their attempt. This seems to be a malaise brought on by the professional era where respect for the opponent has been replaced by lust for victory at any cost. Sadly rugby would seem to be reaping the rewards of professionalism, which demands success over spectacle, and this has transmitted itself to the supporters.
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I'm afraid that most of the blame for the increase in spiteful remarks and behaviour at England/Scotland rugby matches can be laid at the door of the Scots. As a nation, they seem unable to get past the fact that the English walloped them in a few battles hundreds of years ago. Even their dirge of a "national anthem" commemorates an old battle. Until they can get past all this ancient history, no doubt they will continue to blame England for all their woes. It will interesting to see what happens if Scotland does get independence - then they'll have no-one to blame but themselves! Personally, I'm all for re-building Hadrian's Wall - then maybe we won't be able to hear the whingeing!
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Re Point 194:
1. No more our ancient sire land
Shall shelter the despot or the slave Tonight we man the gap of danger
In Erin's cause, come woe or weal
2. To arms, citizens!
Form up your battalions
Let us march, Let us march!
That their impure blood
Should water our fields
3. O Lord, our God, arise,
Scatter her enemies,
And make them fall.
4. The hour has struck
For us to join forces.
Let us gather in legions,
Ready to die!
Well Sean, a selection of lines from the anthems we shall hear this year. Are you saying the Irish one is more militaristic than the French, British or Italian one? Where does the Irish one mention England or the English particularly? You are the one to allege that the rest of us are a bit thick compared to your historical expertise. Leave the blog to sport please.
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Reading most of the comments on here gave me more than a few goosebumps, I have to say. Living in Japan at the moment, there's nothing I would love more than to be heading to Murrayfield again for the upcoming 6 Nations matches. So rather than debate the roots of national rivalries, I think you should all be basking in the glory that is the 6 Nations tournament. & spare a thought to those who wish they were there!
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I spent a brilliant day at Twickenham at the Tsunami Aid North Vs South match. People from all over the world attended and mixed hapily with each other. Everyone applauded each point as a job well done.
This is surely not exclusive to charity matches!
I can go to my local pub to watch a football match, but only if I'm not flying the colours of a team. Unfortunately that's accepted with football. I can however mix with exactly the same people for a rugby match, wearing my New Zealand All Blacks shirt and as with the Tsunami Aid match applaud every point scored with supporters of any other rugby team.
Why is this so? I'm not complaining about the good spirits in the least - KEEP IT UP! What is is about rugby that brings out the mutual appreciation and respect that many football "supporters" are seemingly incapable of.
A healthy support for your countrys rugby team (or any other sport for that matter) is a good thing. Add to that a healthy respect for another country and that's better.
If supporting your countrys rugby, football or any other sports team whilst respecting and applauding the opposition is living in cloud cuckoo land, I want to apply for citizenship there!
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Joe McK:
Don't tell me who I am. I am quite secure enough in my patriotism and my feeling of nataionhood to allow a song to be played at a sportsground. I'm not saying I would sing it or accept it as "mine". Remember the reason for playing "Amhr谩in na bhFiann" at internationals is to respect the host nation. Now like it or not NI is not part of the Republic (hence the trouble), and is infact part of Britain.
The Northerners have to put up with hearing our Anthem every time there is an international, so on the EXTREMELY rare occassion that Ireland play in Ulster I think that letting them have their day is right and proper.
By "of the Republican tradition" I meant that I am not of the Acsendancy, and so would like to one day see a united Ireland. If by "true" republican you meant "willing to kill for an idea of nationhood coming from markings on a map", then no I am not one of those. Get over yourself boyo.
And yes Ireland is part of the British Isles...geographical fact. I prefer the more neutral term "North Atlantic Islands". Not going to worry much about it though.
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An example of the difference between rugby & football fans is when I went to the Middlesex 7's last year. Most people around me were Saracens supporters but ther was one Wasps chap in the middle! When the 2 sides met, they each cheered loudly for their respective team and the Wasps guy went as far as to sit with the Saracens croud and shout for the team with them! This would never happen in football as the supporters are not able to show respect to the opposition!
I am a Welsh girl working in London and well be supporting them all the way! Come on Wales, show them what you're made of!!
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John, post 219, I have to whole heartedly agree. I put something similar on this or another blog. As an Englishman I am ashamed of the growing rise in xenophobia toward our "Celtic" brothers and confront it where ever I see it. But, I have to confess that to me (and most English people), this is a direct counter to the incideous, latent bigotry, verging on hatred of the English that has been evident in a small, but significant minority in Scotland, Wales and Ireland. Whilst in Ireland this seems to be deminishing, in Scotland and Wales it is increasing. In the past I have challenged these views and invariably get two justifications:
1) English "arrogance". When I ask people to elaborate why they are arrogant I have usually got "because they just are". Look on these blogs how many time that phrase is misused!
2) they dig up, often inaccurate, historic precedents (yet again look on these blogs). I have heard from Scots at least 3 or 4 times each "you took our crown", "you took our parliament" and "you invaded us and took our culture"????? Work that out if you will. I even had an Edinburgh student tell me she hated the English because they eroded Scots culture by "making Edin. city shops open on Sundays"???
Any country with a long history has good and bad moments. It seems to me that this particular dwelling on points in history when you were on the recieving end of the English is a particular problem. Why pick on points where you feel the victim instead of proud, historical point?
Thankfully, rugby has been largely excempt from this ignorance but not sure for how much longer.
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Banter is banter, and in rugby it is usually friendly. Whether it's a home game in Cardiff, or an away trip to Paris, Edinburgh or Dublin the thing I love the most about rugby is the fact that I can sing, dance and drink with the opposing fans.
I went to Paris in 2005 and watched Wales' stunning comeback. i was the only Welshman in the whole section and was teased and sang at through the game.When the final whistle went though, 16 frenchmen literally qued up to offer their congratulations. Rugby is one of the few sports where that happens.
For some reason though this just doesn't happen when England come to town (I've never been to Twickenham so can't comment on that).
History and tradition has pitted England against the Celtic nations when it comes to rugby, and there is no doubt for me that that adds to the exitement and intensity of the tournament. Very few rugby fans use the sport as an excuse for violence, so why should the banter stop? It's what makes the 6 Nations so special and so passionate.
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I have been a rugby fan since i can remember, i still believe it attracts the right fans and good sportsmanship. Years ago if England were not playing i would support ther underdog, albeit Scotland, Wales or Ireland. Going into this tournament like the past few, we are the underdogs, and i am excited about what capabilities we have if any. My sentiment on the cup has changed having witnessed Scots, Welsh and Irishman put down the English constatnly even when we were a winning team, This is what has brought bad form to the game and is why more and more English men and women having a grwoing distaste for are neighbours in respect of sport. I know there are excepetions and i always felt i would rise above it. Enoughs enough though i will be supporting the ref when these teams play each other.
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I don't know if anyone is still reading this blog, but I've just been reading rugby league writer Dave Woods' piece about Andy Farrell. According to him, up until now most league afficionados are at best indifferent to England RU or even hope they lose. So it doesn't seem to be only a nationalistic antagonism against England, they seem to get up a lot of people's noses. Just passing this on - let's not have any silly rants about rugby league, there's some great stuff there.
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I couldn't agree more. What I've always loved about rugby (and the 6 nations especially) is the camaradie between sets of fans, and the lack of animosity (for the most part).
When in Cardiff last year for the Scotland vs Wales clash I noted that I spotted perhaps 2 policemen during the afternoon and thought "If this were a football match they'd be crawling all over the place" - you just don't need that same presence when a rugby match is on.
I love nothing more than a good natured banter & a couple of pints with the other home nations fans, and I hope that doesn't change just because of small-mindedness.
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Just a note. John, I read somewhere that the first rcorded incidence of football hooliganism was btw soemthing like Arbraoth vs livingston. But a quick look on the internet acknowledges scuffles at football matches almost certainly broke out before but, unsurprisingly, the first riot of note was probably between Celtic and Rangers fans in 1909. :-)
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Just a note. John, I read somewhere that the first rcorded incidence of football hooliganism was btw soemthing like Arbraoth vs livingston. But a quick look on the internet acknowledges scuffles at football matches almost certainly broke out before but, unsurprisingly, the first riot of note was probably between Celtic and Rangers fans in 1909. :-)
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Nationalism can get silly. I dont care who wins the six nations as long as its not Wales, France, Scotland, Ireland or Italy
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Or Australia!!!
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I'm not so sure things are so bad these days and I do hope they aren't as I'm off to Twickenham for the first time this weekend. I like the away games for the chance to meet the other lot and love going to Wales and hearing them sing Flower of Scotland better than I do. It's only once I experienced a bit of negative banter and that was at a pub in Derby but some of the English lads there were so embarrassed that they told the others to quieten down and were really apologetic. I'd like to think the same might happen in Scotland though fear it might be less likely
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Well Chris, I alleged that no one here was a bit thick, I should have actually been more specific and said I was talking about Soccer fans on the blogs. As for the anthems, here's 3 separate lines from 3 separate verses:
"Our fathers fought before us,
And conquered 'neath the same old flag"
"Shall set the Tyrant quaking"
"Out yonder waits the Saxon foe"
Pretty obvious what nation it has been written about?
Although I know my history isn't quite A* since I moved to England, I can't think of any other country Ireland has been at war with since the Vikings (discounting the Irish men that fought in WW1&2)!
All I was saying that i have heard that some people aren't entirely comfartable with it in the "new Ireland".
As for keeping out of the politics, the fact that we are all talking about nationalistic rivalry is going to involve politics at some stage. And all I was doing was answering some valid points raised on a previous post!
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Well Chris, I alleged that no one here was a bit thick, I should have actually been more specific and said I was talking about Soccer fans on the blogs. As for the anthems, here's 3 separate lines from 3 separate verses:
"Our fathers fought before us,
And conquered 'neath the same old flag"
"Shall set the Tyrant quaking"
"Out yonder waits the Saxon foe"
Pretty obvious what nation it has been written about?
Although I know my history isn't quite A* since I moved to England, I can't think of any other country Ireland has been at war with since the Vikings or someone like that (discounting the Irish men that fought in WW1&2)!
All I was saying that i have heard that some people aren't entirely comfartable with it in the "new Ireland".
As for keeping out of the politics, the fact that we are all talking about nationalistic rivalry is going to involve politics at some stage. And all I was doing was answering some valid points raised on a previous post!
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Well Chris, I alleged that no one here was a bit thick, I should have actually been more specific and said I was talking about Soccer fans on the blogs. As for the anthems, here's 3 separate lines from 3 separate verses:
"Our fathers fought before us,
And conquered 'neath the same old flag"
"Shall set the Tyrant quaking"
"Out yonder waits the Saxon foe"
Pretty obvious what nation it has been written about?
Although I know my history isn't quite A* since I moved to England, I can't think of any other country Ireland has been at war with since the Vikings or someone like that (discounting the Irish men that fought in WW1&2)!
All I was saying that i have heard that some people aren't entirely comfartable with it in the "new Ireland".
As for keeping out of the politics, the fact that we are all talking about nationalistic rivalry is going to involve politics at some stage. And all I was doing was answering some valid points raised on a previous post!
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I'm an Englishman and if England lose then I hope France wins.
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I lived in Nice for a couple of years and watched my 6 Nations in the bars there. Fantastic atmosphere and true appreciation of good sport by the majority. Of course we were passionate about our team winning and yelled approval when a French player dropped the ball and groaned quietly when it happened to our team.
It should be noted that in that environment the English were barracked by Ausies, Kiwi鈥檚, Irish, Welsh, and Scots together with any other nationality who wanted to wind up the English. Didn鈥檛 matter at all. (although they were correctly left out of the next drinks round?????).
I also watched several football matches between England & France in the same bars with the almost the same crowd of people. The atmosphere was often threatening during the football due to a few individuals who we didn鈥檛 see during rugby matches. It sadly seemed to infect a few of the normally restrained rugby addicts who behaved differently during the football matches also.
Sad really when we loose it like that.
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I lived in Nice for a couple of years and watched my 6 Nations in the bars there. Fantastic atmosphere and true appreciation of good sport by the majority. Of course we were passionate about our team winning and yelled approval when a French player dropped the ball and groaned quietly when it happened to our team.
It should be noted that in that environment the English were barracked by Ausies, Kiwi鈥檚, Irish, Welsh, and Scots together with any other nationality who wanted to wind up the English. Didn鈥檛 matter at all. (although they were correctly left out of the next drinks round?????).
I also watched several football matches between England & France in the same bars with the almost the same crowd of people. The atmosphere was often threatening during the football due to a few individuals who we didn鈥檛 see during rugby matches. It sadly seemed to infect a few of the normally restrained rugby addicts who behaved differently during the football matches also.
Sad really when we loose it like that.
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"Football is gentleman's game played by thugs and Rubgy is a thugs game played by gentlemen."
By and large this is also true of the supporters. I hope that it remains so and that the inter-country rivalries never get so strong as to take away from the game itself.
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"Football is gentleman's game played by thugs and Rubgy is a thugs game played by gentlemen."
By and large this is also true of the supporters. I hope that it remains so and that the inter-country rivalries never get so strong as to take away from the game itself.
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Some great comments from a wide range of people, but please remember it's only about rugby! I have lived in the UK for the past ten years, and only twice have my friends and I ever experienced any grief from England fans, once in a pub in Sheffield (clearly football fans) and once in a pub in Riga (bizarre, yes, but again I suspect they were footie fans). On both occasions England were playing and I was supporting the opposing team, in these cases, Ireland and Wales (I'm Irish). But these were sole, unusual cases, and completely unindicative of rugby supporters in England as a whole. By and large, for all matches in the Six Nations (England involved or no) the banter, atmosphere and goodwill between fans is superb, and has led to a lot of my friends becoming converts after attending matches around the stadia of the 6 nations. I don't think the fans have gotten any worse, and I think the rivalry between nations is something to be cherished - exchange of witty banter over a few beers with complete strangers makes the whole 6 nations experience all the richer, and long may it continue!
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Apologies for the same post 3 times it kept saying that it hadn't posted!
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I'm your standard English mongrel, went to a Scots Uni and loved it. Represented Scottish students in my sport (once, v.badly!). Arrived in Scotland happy to support Scotland if England weren't playing; left unable to support Scotland at anything.
This thread has convinced me that however justified I may have felt in my anger at the bigotry displayed by so many Scots (exemplified by the "no friends south of the border" saddoes), not to support them against non-home unions was petty and small minded.
My attitude in future will be more positive.
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As a Scot born and bred, I would have to admit that I'd be far more generous towards the other 5 nations generally, and England particularly, if we were to give them a good stuffing rather more often than we do.
Having watched my (English) cricket loving husband in the company of Australians lately, I don't think sour grapes are limited to any single part of the British Isles.
Still, not a bad 6N showing for Scotland last year, and if we continue to build on that, I'd be up for as much 'good natured banter' as even my husband could throw at me.
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Niall's right - let's get this blog back on course. I tried to be honest John in my earlier note, criticising the SRU for all the Braveheart nonsense at Murrayfield which stirs up .... well, to be honest, you'd have to be pretty thick to allow that to influence you.
The main problem I've found over the years with our English cousins is that they're both bad winners and bad losers : no credit to the other side in either instance. I think this causes some of the backlash we see. The French still call the Scots "l'茅quipe de fair play", and that goes for after the match as well as during it. Let's see England measure up to that tomorrow, win or lose.
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Where as Scotland have only had reason to be bad losers. :-)
Only joking John. More seriously, why ask to get back on course and then have a anti English dig? I think you have Blue tinted glasses. But while we are still on the xenophobic thread. I have lost count of the number of Scots who have said to me that they would rather see England lose than Scotland win. What kind of mentality is that? The number I've seen wearing opposition shirts in bars when England are playing, IN ENGLAND! I even have Scots (rugby following, University educated) friends, in England, who unashamedly do this. Who will openly say "I hate the English, Oh, but not you Sean". And if you hold a poll of English people on this site you will get an idea of how common this is. The Braveheart thing was embarrassing to everybody (and I am most embarrassed for the sensible majority of Scots), but also indicative of the latent, pervasive English xenophobia in Scotland (and the other "Celtic" nations). You might say it was a joke, but it was a deliberate attempt by the SRFU to appeal to the base English xenophobes in Scotland. And this in, what I agree is the most "liberal and openminded" of all team sports, rugby, where the vast majority of fans are true sports fans and don't let petty prejudices intervened (look at the vast majority of comments). A couple of honest questions for you John, how many English people have you seen acting like the Scots I have mentioned? Have you ever seen behaviour like that by English fans in Scotland? How wold you like to see a reinactment of Culloden at Twickers? Would you see it as a bit of "harmless fun"?
Like most "Celts" who come out with this "English arrogance" tripe I defy you to find more English comments of "arrogance" etc. than those from the "Celtic" nations. Dispite the fact we have a population at least 10 times any of the "Celtic" nations and, therefore, entitled to 10 times the number of idiots. :-)
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Watching today on the EBC. Until today I disagreed with people calling the 成人快手 the EBC but after todays coverage I must agree. And as for Brian Moore's behaviour today as a supposed professional commentator I think it is outrageous.
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I often find peoples prejudices stem from their total inability to accept reality. This is a common theme with prejudices within the British Isles.
John P - England has a population of approx. 50 million, Scotland 5 mill, Wales 3 mill, N. Ireland 1.5 mill. Any popular broadcaster will try to cater to the majority. Can you see the link here? It's like saying "Why do these Hollywood studios keep catering to the Americans"???
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I always find it bizarre that people get so hot and bothered about Scots not supporting England in sporting events, thats the way old rivalries work folks and there is nothing sinister about it! Same thing goes on all over the world without people being labelled bigots or narrow minded. Personally I always have a good laugh at England following flat on their faces. When they do win, like the RWC in 2003, Ill be straight on the phone to my Englishh friends to congratulate them.
People should also lay off football crowds. Ive been following Scotland for years and the common practice is to go and have a drink before and after with opposition fans, thats not unique to rugby!
Rugby could learn from football fans to be honest, the atmosphere at Murrayfield, Twickenham etc isnt a patch on Hampden.
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Rob - to a large degree I agree with you. Rivalry is great. To me the main problem is that people often use the "rivalry" excuse to actually mask their petty chips and in some cases to give credibility to their bitter and sometimes deep seated xenophobia. It's all about the intent. As you say, you are also willing to give credit where credit is due as well as tease people. But believe me there are an aweful lot who take it a lot further and more seriously than you.
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I am an Irishman living in Scotland so I tend to support either Ireland first then followed by Scotland. I would love to support England today against Italy but once again the commentry and startup program always tending towards England England England and Johnny Johnny Johnny really drives me up the walls.
Think of the outrage if the program was 30 minutes of talking about Ireland then just show the match. Last Sunday this is what happened, Ireland game on and all you hear for almost half the program is the return of Johnny.
When is the 成人快手 going to realise that they are forcing people from the other parts of the UK to become anti England rugby by this continual one sided view of rugby there are 5 other countries involved in this game not just one but you must make it more equal for the home nations.
Oh and one last thing when is English Rugby going to get their own song rather than using God Save the Queen which is a UK wide song and not relating to England only, just my views of why there is this greater and greater divide and haterid for English Rugby just hope we dont go down the football route, but for all the games I have attended the only fight I have seen was a few years ago when an English supporter could not take the fact that Scotland had beaten them !! Not good showing your country up for its stupid single minded mentality of being the best !!
Just my views away to watch the game
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I am an Irishman living in Scotland so I tend to support either Ireland first then followed by Scotland. I would love to support England today against Italy but once again the commentry and startup program always tending towards England England England and Johnny Johnny Johnny really drives me up the walls.
Think of the outrage if the program was 30 minutes of talking about Ireland then just show the match. Last Sunday this is what happened, Ireland game on and all you hear for almost half the program is the return of Johnny.
When is the 成人快手 going to realise that they are forcing people from the other parts of the UK to become anti English rugby by this continual one sided view of rugby there are 5 other countries involved in this game not just one but you must make it more equal for at least the home nations.
Oh and one last thing when is English Rugby going to get their own song rather than using God Save the Queen which is a UK wide song and not relating to England only, just my views of why there is this greater and greater divide and hatrid for English Rugby just hope we dont go down the football route, but for all the games I have attended the only fight I have seen was a year ago when an English supporter could not take the fact that Scotland had beaten them !!
Just my views away to watch the game
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I am an Irishman living in Scotland so I tend to support either Ireland first then followed by Scotland. I would love to support England today against Italy but once again the commentry and startup program always tending towards England England England and Johnny Johnny Johnny really drives me up the walls.
Think of the outrage if the program was 30 minutes of talking about Ireland then just show the match. Last Sunday this is what happened, Ireland game on and all you hear for almost half the program is the return of Johnny.
When is the 成人快手 going to realise that they are forcing people from the other parts of the UK to become anti England rugby by this continual one sided view of rugby there are 5 other countries involved in this game not just one but you must make it more equal for the home nations.
Oh and one last thing when is English Rugby going to get their own song rather than using God Save the Queen which is a UK wide song and not relating to England only, just my views of why there is this greater and greater divide and haterid for English Rugby just hope we dont go down the football route, but for all the games I have attended the only fight I have seen was a few years ago when an English supporter could not take the fact that Scotland had beaten them !! Not good showing your country up for its stupid single minded mentality of being the best !!
Just my views away to watch the game
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I'm disgusted to have to say that I have it on good authority that Mrs Hadden, the Scot's head coach's wife, was verbally abused by some snobbish suit at Twickenham the other week. Bad enough in the cheap seats but to behave like that in the VIP area is disgraceful.
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I am an Englishman who has mostly English blood, but also a Scottish grandfather, Irish great-grandfather, an uncle in the OLD IRA and a Welsh grandmother. I have always supported the home nations and considered myself British, being proud of my diverse heritage. However this changed after I lived abroad and met many Scots, Irish and Welsh who expressed nothing but hatred and an unhealthy obsession for England and the English. They would happily cheered anybody but England and I have also met Irish people who try and justify IRA bombings and many who silently support the IRA. This was a real eye opener and changed me forever and cemented my Englishness
Thanks to these people and the current events like devolution, I am now an English Nationalist who wants English Independence. I no longer care for the other countries we share this island with, I don't hate them, I just don't feel any love or loyalty towards them. Although I must admit I do enjoy reading about Scottish, Irish and Welsh losses in football.
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Dennis L,
I found your somment..."secure enough in your nationalism" to be quite funny!! Sounds insecure to me. I am not telling you who you are, but I don't think you know who you are anyway. (they are looking for more of your ilk in D4). Playing GSTQ to represent an IRISH team, representing the 32 counties would be an abhorrence of nature. It goes to show how much you respect the 'other half' of Ulster who have lived under british oppression, and continue to do so. By the way, I am very anti-IRA and violence, but I am sick and tired of D4-like spineless people with no national pride, who spend more time trying to appease the british crown, than standing up and being proud of who you really are. btw... the term British Isles is quite a more recent term when you look at history as a whole.
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If the banter is healthy there's nothing wrong with it!
Mind you I probabally support anybody scotland plays against appart from England! Unexpected national rivalry perhaps, and like the country just not their rugby team!
Never rated their style of rugby, years of being on the receieving end of it maybe! Last week prime example
and very hard to take being dominated by such a dull one dimensional team.
Come on Italy! Hopefully they'll get their win against the scots instead of us!
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The banter is part of sport. If your team loses you've got to put up with the comments and have something to retort.
It's not vicious, it's not PC but it's part of rugby.
Most rugby supporters know this and take it with the spirit with which it is meant.
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This is such a sad (but ongoing) debate. I would like to say that I am an Englishman, whio lived in Scotland for 6 yeara and LOVED the place, and loved most of the people. Without doubt, my best friends are Scottish.. BUT. . there are also those that are just plain stupid, and feel that they have to have something really nasty to say about the English (are we really hated that much?!).
These people do the majority of the wonderful Scots no favours. It is also (again, sadly) the only reason why I left Scotland and am now living in the USA. It is also the reason why I miss my very good friends, but it is ALSO the reason why suddenly (never before) I always want England to beat Scotland.
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I'd say there is still a massive difference between football and rugby, the feeling at rugby is still much better and I can't think of a time I've felt any animosity from english supporters towards me as a scotsman, although maybe thats because its easy to be a good winner and they usually win.
At Twickenham a few weeks back I spoke to many an englishman before, during and after the game and we always had a laugh.
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This thread is absolutely ridiculous.
So what if there is are 'anti-English' tendancies during the 6 Nations?. That will always be the case whenever the smaller/conqurered nations are involved with the old enemy.
Look at the behaviour of "The English" towards countries such as Germany, France, Argentina and Australia when they are about to play or God forbid emerge as victors. Free World War 2 mementoes in the Daily Red tops, puns about bombers and the Belgrano?. There seems to be an element posting here who seem to think that 'The English' are above Celtic Anyone but England type behaviour... Oh please. In my experience Twickenham can be an absolutely vile place to watch a match and lets not kid ourselves, if you walk into the wrong pub in London or oop North with a Scottish / Welsh or Ireland top you'd better start looking for the nearest exit quick.
Ps - Also, to the chap who posted about his experiences in Northern Ireland and supporting England? Given the historical and current political climate what on earth did he expect? Do Bosnian supporters politely clap their Serb neighbours for good play?
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One thing that keeps running through my head as I read the posts in this thread is how careful we all must be. There is no question nationlism is on the rise, but that's an issue in society as a whole, and rugby is merely reflecting that. We can't look to rugby to address society's issues - to do so would inevitably spell the end of the game, definitely as we know it, and perhaps all together. I've made so many friends out of 6N encounters I can't even count them all, and I would hate to rob future generations of that experience.
That said, we can't claim innocence in this, nor can we claim that this is an Association Football disease and how we're "above all that". We're not. Each nation has a role to play in this. I don't really know too much about the relationship between the Irish, Welsh and English, so I'll keep my nose out of those, except to say one thing in relation to the situation of our friends across the Irish Sea: I realize that this is very unlikely to happen, but what a magnificent gesture it would be if following the 2007 6N, the GAA were to offer the IRFU an indefinite stay (and base) at the magnificent Croke Park (in return for appropriate "rent" of course) instead of going off to build a replacement for Lansdowne. Will it happen? No. But what a hand of friendship it would be, in these times when Ireland's future is in constant motion, to say "the past is the past, forward as one sporting nation, regardless of what the politicians do".
Now, onto the Scottish-English Relationship...
As a Scot, I personally found the pre-CC2006 "Braveheart" stunt unnecessary and unbecoming. We ARE better than that, and the SRU should be ashamed of themselves for having given it the green light. At the same time, it would also be a step in the right direction if a new anthem replaced Flower of Scotland. FoS is a great song, it stirs the blood, but as the lyrics of the song itself even say, "these days are past now, and in the past they must remain". This isn't pandering to political correctness, simply a recognition that we need to move on. What does it say of us as a nation that apparently our greatest moment was a battle nearly 700 years ago?
Unfortunately, there are few likely candidates to replace it. Scotland the Brave has never really been accepted, despite efforts by both the SRU and SFA years back to make it so. The only other song that's perhaps as widely known is "Loch Lomond" - it too has a slightly unpleasant historical link (it's penned about the flight of many clans following the defeat at Culloden I believe), but (a) I doubt many know that anyway, (b) any Englishman who found Loch Lomond offensive would, I think, be proving themselves to be more a part of the problem than anything inferred by LL, and (c) it's a known crowd-pleaser (as anyone who's ever watched Runrig play live will know). Failing that though - the only other apparent option is a newly-commissioned song. I never like those efforts, they always sound "contrived not to cause offence" and fail to stir any passion, even of the good kind, as a result.
As to the residents of the "Green & Pleasant Land" to our south however, this is where I'm probably going to lose them. While I would imagine many would support the notions I've put forward above, I've noticed a few respondents in this blog entry who, in my opinion, are finding it a bit too easy to blame some deterioration in the relationship largely (or entirely) on the Scots. Sorry guys, that just isn't the case. In fact, if you look through the thread as a whole, the common factor in the areas of concern mainly tends to be... well, you (or rather YOUR relationship with fans of the other nations - there's nothing like the same issue between the other nations themselves). Shouldn't that signify something to you? You're as much of a problem in this, moreso in fact, than Scotland, Ireland and Wales. It's been proposed that this is all a product of devolution (causing increased nationalism in Scotland and a corresponding backlash, partially linked to the West Lothian Question, in England). True? Perhaps. But let's not put the cart before the horse here. Devolution was a product of nationalism, not vice-versa. It was there already. Never stop to ask yourself why?
I'm not going to pull this into a poltical argument, but the fact of the matter is that Scotland historically has tended to blame England for its issues rather than look at its own faults. We are world-champions in self-pity, and hold the same title in an unwillingness to accept much of the burden for our failures. That, slowly, is changing now: possibly in the past, many in Scotland moaned about independence, but were never willing to go through with it because once all the flag-waving and jingoism was stripped away, Scotland knew deep down that it would struggle on its own. Now, that case is lessening - Scotland is increasingly showing the signs of being a nation that can stand on its own two feet, especially with the industrial landscape of the UK as a whole moving away ever increasingly from manufacturing and heavy industry, Scotland's enormous potential in what will be one of the most (possibly THE most) important commodities of the 21st Century, renewable energy, and the fact that Scotland as a whole has natural resources which can sustain its own population quite easily (while England, vastly overpopulated for a country of its size, does not).
That brings us rather nicely to the former PM still referred to in many some areas of Scotland only as "that woman", who, in retrospect, may have done Scotland a favour, but who at the time, spared the country no pain whatsoever, and seemed to take a positive delight in it. I mention this only as response to those who suggest that the resentment of some in Scotland of England is about nothing more than events of centuries ago. It's not. It's a very real, living thing for some people, because it is of events that happened in their lifetime and of which the ramifications are still being felt. In time that will change, but it remains today for some. Resentment? Xenophobia? And you wonder why? Oh, and speaking of xenophobia, let's just leave things by saying... well... Pot, Kettle, Black? There is some xenophobia in Scotland, no question, but for anyone of the English persuasion to attempt to make a point out of that is akin to living in a greenhouse while throwing some boulder-sized rocks. In short - don't pretend you're innocent and it's all down to "rabble-rousing jocks". You're a LONG way from innocent when it comes to the Xenophobia charge - I don't see the BNP making many inroads north of the border.
But as I say, we can't ask Rugby to carry society's issues. There are however a number of issues Rugby as a whole can at least influence, if not solve entirely.
Booing kickers - that's pure "football behaviour". Stop it. It's up to us to point out the offenders to stewards, and it's also up to the Unions themselves to make it clear that this kind of stuff is not welcome. It's not part of our game, never has been, and it needs nipped in the bud.
Aggressive behaviour between fans - see above. We cannot inherit "Football's Disease" - that will, more than anything else, be the death of our sport.
TV Media - The 成人快手's coverage has become horribly slanted towards England, mainly through the continued use of correspondents such as Guscott, Morris and of course, our old mate Mr Moore (the exchange between Keith Wood and Moore during the '06 6N when Wood finally snapped and called Moore for the blatant homer he was - absolute classic TV). I do suspect Moore does it more for TV purposes than anything truly hateful though, whereas I'm never sure in Dewi's case. True, all the 6N countries are represented on the commentary team, but let's be honest and say who does a good job and who doesn't. Andy Nicol and Gregor Townsend have never been afraid to criticize Scotland, nor Woody to have a pop at Ireland. Jonathon Davies actually seems to do little else except criticize Wales (although the way they've wasted their potential since 2005, you can perhaps cut him a little slack and understand why). Saint-Andre hasn't been shy about criticizing France either (but that's the French way, criticizing their rugby team is as popular a national sport in their country as dogging the England football team is). But the English representation? God forbid they'll say anything bad about England.
Print Media - I actually think the broadsheet coverage is fairly OK on both sides of the border (although the "Jonnyfest" was really OTT - frankly, if I was Harry Ellis, who played one of the best matches by an English 9 in recent memory, I'd feel a bit aggrieved). The tabloids are a different ballgame. The Scottish redtops, to a man, ran pictures of Colin Henry in Braveheart garb prior to the Scotland-England Euro 96 clash, and spent the week prior to the game whipping up as much anti-English sentiment as possible - it never fails to amaze me exactly how hypocritical the Sun can be, the most pro-English and pro-Scottish paper in the world... all at the same time!).
The English redtops generally (from what I've seen of them) don't pay much attention to Scotland at all, but instead infuriate Scottish fans (of pretty much any sport) by their constant "Little Englandism" whenever one of their national teams play, together with (a) an apparent expectation of a God-given right to win and (b) obsequity and fawning over England's stars taken to a whole new level. Much has been made in this thread already of an "anyone but England" attitude in Scotland, Wales and Ireland. Yep, and you wonder why? Probably something to do with the fact that we know that if you did (God forbid) win, we'd never hear the end of it. For Years. Decades in fact. 1966, case in point. Constantly harping on about it (成人快手 Sports Dept) doesn't impress anyone, in fact it only highlights you've had 10 shots to repeat since and have failed every one while Argentina, Brazil, Italy, France and Germany have gone about merrily adding to their totals. You see Scotland celebrating when you eventually make your exit? That's not vindication or hatred, my friends - that's relief! (not to mention the fact we also know how the rest of the script go's - that the same hacks who were placing your team on a pedestal a few weeks before are now about to tear them to shreds... so predictable, every time... and there's few things we enjoy better than watching tall poppies get lumberjacked).
It doesn't stop with football either - shall we mention Cricket (if we do, will you PLEASE promise to take it off "national" TV? - no-one outside England gives a hoot). You win a two-team tournament against a nation one-fifth your size, approximately every 10 years or so, and you give the entire team an MBE? OK, I know that many people in England found that inappropriate too, and more down to the publicity-craving clown in 10 Downing St than a national urge, but still? The message is... when you win, win with grace. Learn some humility. You've won a sporting event - that's all. You're not retaking the empire. It's not as if you don't have sportsmen who know how to do it - look at someone like Sir Steve Redgrave, a real sporting hero whose achievements are TRULY remarkable and deserving of honours from HM, yet who feels like all he did was his best.
On a similiar topic, the attitude of some of your players doesn't help either - again, it's an arrogance thing. By no means all England players have it - having met all of Martin Johnson, Rob Andrew, Dean Richards and Lawrence Dalalligio, I can say all were perfect gentlemen. The problem is that for every hundred guys like that, we still get a Will Carling, who embodied every ounce of smug "I'm better than you" arrogance that we so despise. One in a hundred? OK, that's alright, the problem was that he was the highest profile one of the lot.
Last couple of things:
How about you lose the Union Jack? It's not an English flag, it's the flag of the Union, and therefore to apppropriate it as a symbol of "Englishness" is not only wrong, it's insulting and actually hints (as the flag itself suggests by the subjugation of the crosses of Saints Andrew, David and Patrick under that of St George) of oppression and triumphalism. I've noted that more English fans are now adopting the COSG (by itself) instead. Good for you, that's your flag. You might have to have a word with the some elements of the N. Ireland society though, because when they appropriate it for their own and place the Red Hand of Ulster at the heart of the cross, that's about as inflamatory a symbol in that area of the world as you'll find. That said though, let's be honest: the increased use of the COSG isn't anything to do with any sudden rush of contrition for past acts. Never mind - we'll take it anyway. Just one thing though - if we agree to drop the silly Braveheart extras, could you reciprocate by getting rid of that silly bloke who wanders round Twickers before and after games dressed in a top-to-toe COSG outfit waving a flag? He doesn't particularly offend me, he just looks... well, a bit daft (especially if you've lost). Ta!
While we're at it, the same can be said of GSTQ. It's the anthem of the Union, not of England, and to many in Scotland, carries a similiar whiff of oppression - although never sung, many Scots have heard of the content of the 6th verse. Even less well known, have a look at the words of the EIGHTH verse, added following the 1745 Jacobite Rebelliion: pretty impressive, three of the other 6N countries insulted (at least indirectly) in one verse! Time to let it go guys - use LOH&G if you need something. Or why not just stick with Jerusalem (a bloody fine song that the Twickenham crowd does great justice to)? (Trivia Point: King George V was greatly in favour of using Jerusalam over GSTK. Given the latter was, well, about HIM, I'd say if he could have lived with it, so could you). Failing that, why not take the advice of Scotland's greatest philosopher, the one and only Billy Connolly, whose sketch on the subject suggested using the theme from the Archers? ;-) Rugby is one of the only (maybe THE only) sports where international events are marked by the each of respective countries' national anthems being sung with gusto by BOTH sets of fans, yet that has always been noticably absent from Scotland-England internationals. Hardly surprising given the content and implications of the songs we've mutually chosen, and we're both at fault there. Let's change. It's a great tradition, and we should all be a part of it.
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crikey, give someone else a turn.
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I agree with the idea nad yes its a dangerous move i beleave the problem is bringing in ancient battles and fights mainly by media as a reason to win turns what is simply a match into a international cross borders battle. So what do we do we as people calm down enjoy the sport rather the chance to belittle a nation with the international in dublin next week we could do a huge amount of good and well done england for learning the lesson before you play. Or untold damage to both nations yes what was done over eighty years ago was wrong but lets forget it for the game and celebrate our fantastic sportand our wonderful nations.
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I've been to many games at Twix and also Dublin and Paris, personally I don't like to go to Cardiff or Murrayfield because I'd rather go to Paris or Dublin and as somebody with brown(ish) skin I feel uncomfortable in Cardiff and edinburgh with an english accent. As a result I have always found the Scots and Welsh for the most part to be fairly small minded and parochial when compared to the Irish or French. I can't tell you the number of times I've been told that I'm "not really English". But that is my individual experience, most telling of all for other England fans (and me) was on the '01 Lions tour of Aus. All of the home nations songs were belted out except one nations.......Englands, which was often booed down or just met with silence by non English fans.
The friendly rivalry of years gone by is dissapearing but thats because of the problems in mainland GB, you won't find those problems with France, Italy, Ireland or any other teams (OK, NZers can be more than a bit one eyed and cry a lot when they lose). Sort out the in-balance in the UK Parliament and things will probably change to what they were but the very fact that we are seeing these attitudes creep in to rugby is a symptom of something much deeper in British society.
Its a shame but also the way of the world.
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Re: Michael Gilbert. You shouldnt be afraid to go to a match in Cardiff, I have been there twice supporting Italy and had a fantastic experience both times. Sure its intimidating being the only Blue shirt surrounded by 80000 Red shirts inside the stadium (and many more than that on the streets of Cardiff!) But I never faced any hostility from the home fans, sure I got a bit of a ribbing in 04 when we got stuffed, but last year after it finished 18-18 many locals came up to me to congratulate us on the result and declared that we were unlucky not to have won. Perhaps if we had won they might not have been so happy, but that said, I do not think there is anything even for an Englishman to worry about!
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The fans may forget their marbles occasionally in the stands and outside, but while the players still remember it then there is hope for rugby still.
It seemed genuinely insane when you saw it, and considering the 80 minutes of hard hitting rugby beforehand it was crazy but the most amazing moment in rugby I remember was 2003 World Cup, After the game between South Africa and Samoa when both teams shared a prayer with each other after the game.
They didn't forget the spirit of the game, the home nations teams haven't forgotten the spirit of the game so maybe it will eventually filter back to the fans.
Saying that I've never had any problems with different nationalities in rugby. It's always been one of the highlights of rugby for me. The fact that there are rivalries is great but their's no need for it to be confrontational. (apart from the haka!!!) :D
Enjoy the rest of the 6 nations everyone!
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I remember making the long trip to murrayfield in 1986 to see england play scotland.
English hopes were high having beaten wales a few weeks earlier (in the days when wales could still regularly compete at top level unlike now)
We were beaten 33-6 and, quite frankly, did well to get the 6 points.
Only having standing tickets was unhelpful, and wearing an england scarf perhaps unwise, but the misery was compounded by the feeling of warm liquid trickling down the back of my trouser leg. Anyway, at least I was grateful that we had whisky in our hip flask instead of the warm tea that the Scottish fans immediately behind us must have had in the thermos flask they'd obviously spilt.
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I've been a Welsh fan all my life and even when I was a small boy there was always one result that mattered...Wales beating England. Always raised a smile. Do I hate the English, no, not at all. But then where would 6 Nations be without National Pride?
It's only a game mun.
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Having been born in Wales, with an Irish Dad, lived in England since I was knee high, my Brother has a Scots partner our family has all bases covered apart from the French & Italians, but we still drink the wine & enjoy the pasta!! The 6 nations will always be among the greatest sporting occasions because of the rivalry.
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British society has all sorts of problems at present nationalism is only one of them.
Don't confuse the, apparently endemic, problems of our drinking culture with nationalism or rugby though.
I have been and England and Bath supporter for a number of years and have travelled with both. Most notably at Cardiff for the EDF semis a year ago.
In the run up to the game the pubs were packed with adult (i.e. over 25) rugby fans of all clubs having a good time with each other.
After a fantastic game of rugby, we retired to our hotel and went out to hit the town.
The population of Cardiff had changed from an adult population of sensibly merry adults to an enormous group of aggressively drunk adolescents. None of them even knew what rugby is. Their behaviour towards some of the English fans (I fortunately had dispensed with my rugby shirt) was disgraceful. But nothing to do with Rugby.
The bottom line here is that racism (lets give it its proper name) is frequently used as an excuse for aggravation rather than any deeprooted prejudice.
Lets not blame rugby or its supporters for the problems caused away from the ground.
As a point of note, the friendliest place I have watched rugby is Dublin. Now if there was ever a nation with a recent enough history to retain prejudices!
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Although the other members of the Six Nations always take the England game more seriously it certainly won't do England any harm!
As for the banter- it's always been like that. Go to a Lions game on tour- it is fantastic with each of the countries fans having to sing a song in turn and plenty of friendly taunting. This is all at the game not in the bar.
I do agree (and do not understand why) the other nations- especially Wales, will always support the other side- even when it's the World Cup against a Southern Hemisphere side. I have to always support the home nation. I can't possibly NOT support the home nation and I do not know one English fan (from hundreds) that I know, who does not feel the same.
Sincere apologies to all the other nations (what ever it was and whenever it was).
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I too remember with almost a tear in my eye the trips to Murrayfield that I made in the 1970s as a teenager. Almost invariably to watch a gallant Scotland score two converted tries plus add a few penalties (from the boot of Peter Brown or Andy Irvine) but still lose the game. Happy days. I have lived abroad for 13 years now so have had limited access to 5/6 nations but did manage to catch the 'Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny' pre match build up to the Enland v Scotland match and the 'Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny Jonny' post match analysis. Incredible that some people still do not understand how this gets up our nose. Never in the days of Cliff Morgan and Bill McClaren. Sad really.
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Steve Jones 113,
I'd hazard a guess that those fellas on the field at the 2006 Calcutta cup game weren't re-enacting Culloden... However idiotic the idea was, and as cynical as we are up here, I don't think the organiser would re-enact one of the battles we lost...
PS. The "you're just a suburb of Edinburgh" chant made me laugh... Then again... I'm from Edinburgh... And I'll bet that one winds you up even more than the England chant John.
Not everybody's got the same sense of humour (although, to a man, I'll bet everybody thinks they have a good one), There will always be folk who take it the wrong way, or visa-versa overstep the line. The more airtime the media gives it, the more credibility it gets...
I must commend nearly all of you lot on here... Impressively mature comments coming out of folk on here... Considering this is the Interweb n' all.
One final comment... John, what do you think of our Rugby anthem then?
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Al 284 - I completely agree about the media.
There is no such thing as bad publicity and if the media tuts and sighs about a half dozen morons you can guarantee there will be a whole dozen the next time.
Coming from a nation that seems bored with its identity, I find it amusing when the Scots re-enact Bannockburn (is that right Al?)their most recent victory of note over the "English", although technically the enemy at the time was French.
I find it amusing when Eddie Butler and Jonathan Davies commentate on Wales games apparently sharing the one eye.
I find it amusing when a former Irish captain comments on the "pride" he feels for the Favourites and erstwhile WC contenders. Who have just been beaten as a result of poor execution and lapses of concentration.
And everyone finds it amusing when I seem to be the only one who sees opposition infringements every 3 seconds in an average game.
At the end of the day, apart from 40 minutes each way plus injury time, its just a game and us sensible folk (and I include those listed above) will all sleep well at night.
Leaving the not so sensible to their drinking and fighting over whatever "cause" offers the opportunity of a punch up.
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to all celts out there as an englishman I find the press coverage of the 6N one sided to the point of comical buts lets be honest the red tops know nothing about our great game and that John Inverdale on the 成人快手 is just hopeless infact apart from Keith woods and Jonathan davis the whole 成人快手 6N settup is a big joke but that does not mean all englishman feel the way the press do although when we do beat you it does feel good
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I think all of the nationalistic rivalries would end very quickly if we all just sang the National Anthem -which is God Save the Queen (this goes for scotland, wales and NI)- anything else should not be allowed.
If we could get the Irish, French and Italians to do the same the problem would be solved.
God Save England..............he is an englishman after all.
(Instructions - Light blue touch paper and retire a safe distance...........)
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Remember Dickie Davis and World of Sport on Saturday afternoons many, many, many years ago (jeez I am old). Anyway my favourate part of that sports programme was the wrestling (I was a kid then right). There was a wrestler named Mick McManus. The guy everyone loved to hate. We all watched when he was on and cheered every time he was put on the canvas. Well for me, England are Mick McManus. Not sure why but I love to watch them play and usually hope they get beaten. I was however cheerin for them in the WC final in 03(northern hemisphere and all). England have 1.5 million registered rugby players and have 12 professional teams in their premier division. Ireland have 4 pro teams and 100,000 registered players. David and Goliath type thinkin still remains in the Irish psychie. I am goin to the game on Saturday and hope all the English fans enjoy the weekend and sing their anthem as loud and proud as possible. I will be singing mine even louder. Heres hopin for a great game of rugby and an Irish victory of course.
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Hi Al, 284
I am wary of anthems. Most of them have inappropriate words written years ago about beating people in battle or dying for causes. Having said that I am not sure that many people listen to the words in that sense, it's more the tune that evokes a feeling.
Flower of Scotland, well, I know lots of people like it. I think if I am honest, I find anthems in general very strange. Should we maybe do away with anthems and that whole phony process of lining up to face the main stand.
Mums of boys earning their first caps would disagree of coures
JB
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I believe the majority of rugby fans still believe in enjoying the event together,whether English,Welsh,New Zealanders..However, you always get idiots in any large group of people and unfortunately they are often the ones you remember.We need the rivalries because without them and the history attached the game is nothing(the atmosphere in regional games in Wales nowadays is nothing compared to the former club games for example),its only when people take them too far and border on xenophobia that it becomes a problem.
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No. 272 Colin.
What I like to see. Short, sharp & to the point.
Good grief!!
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I'm a football fan (Celtic & Scotland) first and foremost but I do enjoy watching the 6 nations and rugby world cup. I love heading into Edinburgh the day of a Murryfield match to experience the atmosphere and banter in the pubs especially when the Irish and welsh are in town.
I totally respect the way rival rugby fans can sit side by side at a match with no animosity and the sportsmanship of the players puts the diving cheating footballers to shame. However, I must object to the majority of views on football fans on this forum. Contrary to popular belief, we are not all hooligans and thugs intent on fighting and rioting. I have never seen any trouble at a football ground and have watched many a game in pubs with rival fans with only good spirited banter. Also any misbehaviour of rugby fans seems to be conveniently blamed on football fans attending the game.
Anyway I鈥檓 off to book a ticket for the Scotland Italy game as I hear there鈥檚 still some left at the reasonable price of 拢20. Good luck everyone, cmon Scotland!!
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Quite right I do agree - all this rivalry between English and Scots is rediculous - yes the Scots were oppressed by the English but so were the welsh and the Irish and generally speaking we get on fine with them - There have been a number of comments in the paper regarding the England v Scotland Row but personally I thing it is rubbish - the six nations is not about politics or about a chance to defeat the English (or any other team) in some kind of revenge for events past - it is a rugby tournament a chance for genuine rugby fans to come together and proudly support their country so I have one message to all English Fans who hold small grudges against the scots because they have always held grudges against us - Buck Up and forget let us join together and remember we are all countrymen whether English Scottish Welsh Irish French or Italian we are all living in this world of ours and so technically we are all fellow brothers and countryment - to those few Scots who still hold a grudge against the English for the events of years past then allow me to apologise on behalf of the nation for the oppression and redicule your people suffered at the hands of the English - it is unacceptable but it should not get in the way of a freindly game of rugby. Let us ALL watch the remaining games with pleasure and enjoy the tournament for what it is so hopefully by the time the next England v Scotland game comes around both sides can say to each other we're sorry - The English for the Oppression and the Scots for the Grudge - remember rugby is about rugby nothing more!!!
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Have read a lot of this session....
and yes, rugby has changed with professionalism and the Heineken cup.
people will always embue internationals with Nationalistic fervour and significance but the craic is mighty because over a lifetime whoever you support, you will have your day and that will compensate for any drubbings and ribbings received.
I'm Irish. I support anything in green. I remember the triple crown in the eighties, I love the fact that the rugby is drawn from the whole island and 'that' politics is parked at least 5 times a year.
The anthem thing is a bit weird, but hey, it's another song to sing!
I wish the press would get over the 'historic' issues associated with Croke Park. Ireland has moved on, we've had the Celtic Tiger and Father Ted, we're loaded and laughing and we might even win something one of these days but either way there will be beer.
C'mon the boys in green.
ps anyone got a ticket for tomorrow?
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On the issue of anthems..... The IRFU commissioned a new song to be sang at Ireland rugby matches. Ireland's Call is a great song - it brings a great sense of pride and sends tingle down the spine when sung in a packed stadium. Yet it does not tell of battles lost and won are pledge any alligence expect to the country itself. As an Irish Protestant, i think its time the IRFU handed out a gesture and drop the Soldiers Song from home internationals - why commission a new song and them sing the old one too!!. Now, why can't other unions commission such a song. I'm sure there are plenty of tallented songwriters in Scotland who would thrive on such a challenge - The sru could even hold a competition for the best song. The English RU need to drop GSTQ as their Rugby Anthem and it is the national anthem of Great Britain and Northern Ireland and they seem to have hijacked it for Rugby Use. Maybe they can use the 'chariot' song............
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In my experience there are only two teams whose suppporters are aggressively partisan one is Scotland and the other is New Zealand. The Scots hate the English and always have and vice versa, I've heard the Scots openly celebrate English defeats in all sports not just rugby so I feel we are justified in feeling the same way about them. The Kiwis are just bad losers and would win at any cost even to the detriment of their National Sport.
The majority of the time all rugby supporters mingle and get on with each other and it is important we keep this going, I have two young sons and I'm looking forward to taking them to Twickenham for their first experience of live rugby and I will be confident that they will be in a safe and friendly environment but I will pause for thought before doing the same for a Fooball match. Therefore it is essential we keep rugby with no borders and keep the family atmosphere and the 'craic' apart from with the Jocks they just can't take having no decent national sides!!
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Out of interest ...
- in terms of perceived historial slights, England has been invaded by Scotland more often than vice versa.
- there are more Celts in England than in the rest of the UK combined, and they largely are not ex-pats. They've been there all the time. This Celtic brotherhood stuff is largely based on outmoded and discredited historical ideas. Besides, these days, it's well dodgy in the light of US white supremacists' eager adoption of the Celtic label.
- there is no 成人快手 or Radio England (there is a 成人快手 and a Radio Wales and a 成人快手 and a Radio Scotland). So is it really fair to blame them for having to share a channel with the rest of the UK?
- sporting banter is exactly that and part of the fun and English people know they are pantomime villains, due to being biggest nation probably. The problem is that the racists out there exploit this banter in order to scream vitriol and, in the worst circumstances, attack English fans. It might be good if we banterers exercised some peer group pressure on such people? We've all seen them, every match, and we should keep them firmly at arm's length.
- there are considerably more Scots in the English sporting written and broadcast media than any other representative grouping from the wider UK.
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#272 Colin - Blimey mate you need a hobby or something.
I started reading it but tired about page 26, what you're basically saying, with a lot of qualification and vaguely related wibbling is you don't like English people much, yes?
There, that didn't take long did it?
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Why did your biased English commentators not mention the hampering in the 1st lineout by the English forwards? It lead to the first try by England against Italy
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