The Glass Box for Friday
Comment here about tonight's programme...INCLUDING the Princess Diana coverage.
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Re the song on tonight's newsletter - apart from being Absolutely Rubbish, you do realise it's about having sex with underage girls, and is sexist to boot? How about Canned Heat "On the Road Again"? Always makes me think of summer...
Diana: you just HAD to, didn't you!
Grrrrr.
Fifi ;o)
Tony Benn - Absolutely Fantastic !!
He is always great value for money..
Inspired pairing of David Steel and Tony Benn .. both perfectly civil, both holding strong opinions, both articulate and charming.
Well done Eddie for backing off a bit and letting them get on with it, by themselves.
Move over John Bird and John Fortune!
Fifi
Quite the most disgusting headline today must have been the SUN
" I buried Diana"
How crass can you get!!!
The only person who survived the crash in which Diana died was wearing a seatbelt. If she had been wearing a seatbelt she may well be alive today. In the interests of road safety surely this fact should be widely publicised and used as an example. By not wearing a seatbelt she was instrumental in her own death.
Cracking discussion between Lord Steele and Tony Benn. Why do politicians only sound like normal people whenever they're no longer in the political front line?
How many people give two hoots about the European Treaty?
Why not a referendum on things that many people really care about - like 'should our troops remain in Iraq and Afghanistan?'
Eddie & team, why did all your postings regarding the vaccination story come from the "anti-" brigade? There's a lot of comment on previous threads that show how arrow that view is and how it is not supported by peer-reviewed science. You should really have put both sides of the view at least, particularly on a story like this.
an exasperated FFred
Did I catch the name right - a Mr Barker talking about pets? Especially dogs, presumably.
How many people give two hoots about the European Treaty?
Why can't we have a referendum on a subject about which many people really feel deeply, such as'Should our troops remain in Iraq and Afghanistan?
As ever - a great programme -
from intelligence of Tony Benn & David Steel -
to those ducks having a 'quack' in the morning!
I'm still chuckling over that one!! ;-)
Thanks Eddie!
I鈥檓 not a person who laughs out loud very often. Don鈥檛 know why, just the way I鈥檓 made I suppose. However鈥ddy鈥檚 comment of 鈥榙on鈥檛 we all鈥 after being told by someone that his ducks needed to have a quack in the morning had me laughing into the washing up water.
Does Eddie believe that the 鈥淔lat鈥 earth causes boats to sink when they go over the edge? He clearly believes the anti-MMR nutters have a right to continually mislead the general public with quack science and tragic unscientific anecdotes. Thinking how PM used to give so much time to these individuals when the 鈥渄iscussion鈥 was at its peak; I thought they might have learnt their lesson from the real deaths caused by diseases that should have eradicated but for irresponsible reporting on programs like PM.
Okay boys, the last item went from barking to quackers - and then you topped it by becoming batty.
It's what we love about PM - sublime to the ridiculous in 60 minutes
iI enjoyed the programme from start to finish, particularly the refreshingly cordial debate between TonyBenn and David Steel 'facillitated' brilliantly by 'Eddie' somebody-or-other.
The dips from the blog etc zipped along.
I do like to hear the names of the contributors, though. Yes, I know it takes up valuable time..
Mollyxx.
You should scrap the blog; it's crap; it doesn't work; it's impossible to figure out; it's mostly puerile one-liners; it phuquing useless.
Bring back the old scheme. At least that was filtered to get rid of the nonsense. Right now you're just a little bit worse than Sky.
And I bet you don't print this.
C.
The 成人快手 is so obsessed by Princess Diana. I really get fed-up with people speaking on my behalf,ie'The whole country were in mourning etc'
The grief is private to her family and those who genuinely knew her, not the general public, who never met her and know only the image portrayed by the media. And here we are again 10 years later. The media again generating mass hysteria. Let her sons grieve, but do not inflict this false sentimentality on those of us who prefer not to be a part of it.
I have had it explained to me, by both a doctor and a nurse, that the MMR problems are most likely caused by the fact it's a combined vaccination.
Little bodies can usually assimilate a single inoculation at a time - but expecting them to cope with 3 biggies in one go is too much.
My mum had been a nurse and it was the 1960s so of course I was going to be vaccinated. One at a time.
I got measles, I got german measles, and thanks to my jabs they were unpleasant but I survived.
If I had children I'd be looking for single vaccinations for them, not the MMR. The option should be available to everyone. Why isn't it??
Oh yes. Cost again. Silly me...
Fifi
Fifi (19)
Yes but tetanus is always given with the pertussis vaccine because the protection for each is better when they are given in combination. It's not as clear cut as all that...
The difficulty as I understand it is that autism tends to manifest itself at the same time as the MMR is given. This is going to make it difficult to prove conclusively to everyone that there is/isn't a link between the MMR vaccine and autism. I have to be honest and say that I genuinely don't know whether there is or isn't a link - it hasn't been proved or disproved to my satisfaction really.
When I was at the baby jab stage there was a scare about brain damage from the whooping cough vaccine. My mum had me vaccinated, but worried about it. When I was 4 I got whooping cough - but it could have been a lot more serious for me if I hadn't been vaccinated. I reacted to the flu jab so rely on my colleagues providing herd immunity and reducing my risks of getting flu. May be that is a solution for the future - using genetic profiling to identify those who may be at increased risk from vaccines and targeting immunisation schemes accordingly to maximise the herd effect. This still relies on everyone behaving for the good of the community.
Going back to the argument about multiple jabs at once. My grandmother worked in an isolation hospital in the 1930s - she had all the jabs that were available then in one go. She left to join the WAAFs during the war and had them all again in one go. I asked her whether she worried about getting so many vaccinations at once. She said that once you've looked after someone who is dying of what we now consider to be trivial illnesses the vaccines aren't scary at all.
She won't have the flu jab though -She's convinced it gives you a cold!
;o)
The MMR is probably also being heavily propagated on the grounds of efficiency - it only involves one appointment and one trip to the doctor / nurse, whereas single jabs for all three would have resulted in three appointments and three visits - and in reality, not everyone would attend all three appointments.
The Wikipedia articles on the vaccine and controversy are interesting to read - the scientific article Andrew Wakefield wrote only mentioned an association in time between MMR and the onset of symptoms, but didn't look into any possible biochemical links between the two. What caused all the controversy wasn't so much the paper, but Andrew Wakefield's comments to the media that until such a time as the triple vaccine was definitively proved to not cause the symptoms, the separate vaccines would be safer: "For the vast majority of children, the MMR vaccine is fine, but I believe there are sufficient anxieties for a case to be made to administer the three vaccines separately."
-oOo-
Meanwhile, it's interesting to note what may be lurking around the corner - MMRV, which is MMR + chickenpox vaccine.
From a biological point of view, surely this trend is a little worrying - surely with 4+ "infections" roaming around the child's system simultaneously (plus any colds/pathogens they've picked up from the environment), their immune system is going to be a little stretched?
It would be worrying if sometime in the future a "one size fits all" megavaccine is developed (immunize little Johnny against every known childhood disease - plus a handful of adult diseases just in case...)
Cameron (17):
I certainly hope Eddie doesn't print the blog... it'd be a terrible waste of trees.
Sorry, was that a puerile one-liner? Here's a puerile multi-liner...
Having missed the first part of the programme due to my being too mean to buy a new personal radiogram for listening to on the train, I'm just listening to the Listen Again feature - "Well worth the licence fee on its own": SSC...
Interesting piece on the Erith attack, previously I'd only known it as the birthplace of Linda Smith.
The Diana item: far too long. I agree with the Bishop of London: "Let it end here." Nicely ironic comment by Peter though that the Bishop's speech had the theme of "not raking up the past." As if this whole thing was anything other than raking it all up again.
Fifi (19): I don't think the '3-in-1' nature of the MMR is a problem. Our bodies face all sorts of bugs and beasties every day.
The MMR scare was at its height when our eldest was due for the jab, so we investigated as far as we could. MMR is used in countless other countries around the world, with no apparent link to autism.
However - the level of hysteria whipped up by irresponsible journalism at the time was still enough to make me feel physically sick when taking him for his jab!
Have also had another thought (whilst in the bath - I do all my thinking there).
Some very eminent person (can't remember who, when or where) once postulated at some learning thingy that autism and schizophrenia are two ends of the same spectrum. His proposal was that we all operate towards the middle of this spectrum: some days we hear our conscience loudly, other days we're a bit of a hermit and suffer from interaction overload. The individuals that we label as schizophrenic or autistic operate, according to him, primarily at one end of the spectrum.
If we've now got a pretty good link between cannabis use as a teenager and the schizophrenia-end of the spectrum is it really such a leap to propose a link between a childhood vaccine and the autism end?
This is all getting a bit "furrowed brow" now, so I'll stop...
Who are the nurse and doctor who said that combining vaccines makes them problematic? Do they read any up to date literature? Plus advice from a nurse that is over 40 years old..please!!
We need to vaccinate as soon as possible because small babies have no ability to produce antigens for some of the illnesses we vaccinate against, plus elderly peoples resistance to many of the illnesses decline. Vaccinating children eradicates the illness in the vulnerable members of our society as well as those who have recieved the vaccine. German measles is a mild illness for a child but a devastating illness for a pregnant woman. Measles kills children and this will be fully demonstrated if we dont get our children vaccinated.
Still on MMR - achieving herd immunity is important. There are many children who for various reasons have poor immune systems, cannot themselves have the vaccinations for this reason, and would also be more likely to be badly affected by the diseases should they catch them.
For example a neighbour of mine whose son was born with kidney problems, and had a transplant at age four.
By an odd coincidence, this child's dad is deaf in one ear from childhood measles, but if the son were to catch it the consequences may be even worse.
Amy Winehouse has phenomenal talent and ability.
I heard her songs played on Radio 2 - I wouldn't
have heard of her except for this and seeing her on Buzzcocks. I am very sorry to hear of her problems
and really hope she is able to overcome them with
the help of her loving family and friends. Sometimes, extraordinary talent comes with a bold yet reckless nature which is an easy target for critisism.
Fifi (19), Karen (21) &c on MMR
I missed PM (for work reasons), but have read the New Scientist articules on this over the years.
What Wakefield found, in essence, was that some autistic children had evidence of the strain of measles used in the MMR vaccine in their gut. Some idea also that this might make the gut wall "leak" some of the contents not normally absorbed by the gut into the blood stream (other mechanisms probably were suggested as well). And could those componds then lead to the autism? The timing of onset of autism to the *first* MMR jab (there's meant to be a second just before school age) made it a hypothesis, although at what stage does autism show if someone is affected and not have MMR jab? Was there really a connection between the MMR and autism?
This relationship did not appear in other countries as it appeared (at first at least) to in the UK, which made the idea that the UK made MMR may have some difference to other countries - way it was made? way it was stored? The flu vaccine (and the threatened Super-flu, currently that has gone quiet) shows that different countries have different ways of making what is essentially the same vaccine.
So fearful of the costs of single vaccines, and of not having herd immunity for these diseases, the "establishment" tried to squash this - and predictably, it had exactly the opposite effect. And then things turned really ugly, doctors doing a profitable side line in single vaccines privately which the NHS turned around and refused to give (just to make things worse) and even the original research team went into in-fighting. Comedian Marcus Brigstock took quite a bit of flak when he did a turn on the "Now Show" on this topic, at the time (he explained) when his child was due for the first jab.
I am unaware of the original observation (evidence of the strain of measles used in MMR in the guts of children with autism) being disproved, or indeed of perfectly healthy children also showing this "symptom" (which would tend to disprove the hypothesis, or at least suggest that there is also a genetic susceptibility). Research teams on this topic appear to be working in headless chicken mode.
Herd immunity does always take the risk that individuals may suffer reactions - mild or severe - to the vaccine for the good of the whole herd. Clearly if all were affected, then that vaccine would be useless, but just where does one draw the line - 1 in 100,000? 1 in 1,000,000?. And should there be recompense if your child happens to be that one in a million, or as here, "Tough".
Trusting that the item on PM did not make this precis pointless/useless/pack of lies.
Orange Pekoe (26),
Further to my piece on MMR (yet to appear), I too am deaf to high frequencies in one ear due to Measles. I remember staying in bed, with an electric fire roaring (this was the early '60's) to keep the room warm. Also had Mumps. Had a scare about Rubella, but probably not, that was never confirmed.
orange pekoe (23) - 'irresponsible journalism' hits the nail right on the head.
As a parent (with 3 MMR vaccinated children), teacher of autistic children, and husband of a medical statistician, I'm embarrassed and frustrated by the unscientific way we approach these things.
My frustration arises from the fact that as a liberal I don't see what we can do about the lazy journalism that makes it OK to consider all arguments as if they are equal. One man and his dog thinks there might be a link between MMR and autism. No one else who is in a position to know does. But hey - it's a good story, so let's run with it. Oh look - an even better story has come along - lots of unvaccinated children are catching measles and dying. That'll get a few headlines.
Sorry if I appear to be ranting - it's because I'm ranting.
Sid
DeepJohn (28) : Pointless? Certainly not!
Thank you for that considered and well researched response. I have copied and filed it away for the next time my SO and I have one of those opposing-knee-jerk arguments about this topic.
Very very grateful.
Fifi
No idea if this will now appear, but I am trying again because it cvlaimed to have lost it.
Deepthought @28, you say:
'I am unaware of the original observation (evidence of the strain of measles used in MMR in the guts of children with autism) being disproved, or indeed of perfectly healthy children also showing this "symptom" (which would tend to disprove the hypothesis, or at least suggest that there is also a genetic susceptibility). Research teams on this topic appear to be working in headless chicken mode.'
Surely the MMR jab was prevalent at the time of Wakefield's research -- most children at that time were having it? In which case it seems likely that a large proportion of them had the measles strain and didn't become autistic, I would have thought. One ought to be able to work it out with simple numbers of jabs given versus numbers of autistic children. One could also have a look at whether the number of autistic children rose dramatically at the time this particular measles strain came into use.
I expect there is something very wrong with that, but it looks like a place to start.
Chris F and Sid C (32/30)
Statistics don't work how you might like, especially in the low numbers we are trying to discuss. Yes, lazy journalism (Sid), but could there not be a real effect? And the measles strain in the gut (Chris F) was, according to New Scientist, unique to these (autistic) children. Of course it was after everyone had the jab (Chris, 32) since the numbers are such that "no effect" would be seen otherwise. See my previous arguement re herd immunity - that just got out of hand. And if 0.01% are affected, what do you do - go ahead or abandon the programme?
Autuism *is* increasing - no question of that. Wakefield simply suggested that one cause was MMR. Other causes are available for arguement.
Provide proof otherwise, I'd be happy to remove my comments.
So far as I know, the MMR measles strain in the gut (Chris 32), is not a common response to the MMR vaccine. If it were, the Wakefileld analysis would have been shot down on first outing years ago.
Wakefield gave one idea - it got transmuted, vulgarised, whatever, and he did himself no good also - but maybe some seed of truth? Perhaps it's below the threshold of acceptibilty (see my previous entries in this thread), but it *might* be true, despite all the flak of several years.
On a completly different tack, I just point out my late father had 'flu within a week of his 'flu jab every year. Perhaps some evidence of genetic suseptibilty? Could it be the same thing here?
BTW, I'm a scientist, but not specialising in this field. But I do have to deal with contraversal opinions, and make judgements.
I think you will find I have not said "yea" or "nea" in this case, but tried to report the situation as best I know it - and it is complex, and despite being childless I've have had reason to study it closely. I admit to not being keen on the 3 in 1 on the grounds that the poor blighters' immunity system would not know what has hit it, but have reserved judgement.
But, in my opinion, and on my experience in other fields of science, mucking around with more than one variable - or vaccine, if you like - leads to trouble.
Chris F (32),
Just to be plain, if *all* children who had MMR vaccine had that measles strain in their gut, Wakefield's arguement would be dead in a ditch. But that was not the case, if only because no-one bothered to prove the otherwise.
But, for whatever reason, there is a large increase in the number of children labelled as autistic.
I'm no chearleader for Wakefield, but seeing science being trashed like this gets up my nose. It was just a hypothesies, not even a theory, to start with...
The Evans family must listen to a different version of In The Summertime Time to me. The lyrics in the newsletter aren't what I hear in Mungo Jerry's warblings.
For instance "Scoot along the lake, do a town an' then return her twenty five" - means what? Isn't it something like "Speed a long the lane, do a ton or a ton and twenty-five" - hardly sound advice from Auntie.
And the end of the verse "You can make it, make it good and really fine" takes on an altogether different slant as "you can make it, make it good in a lay-by ".
Drink driving, careless speeding, sex in lay-byes. What were you up to as a lad Eddie? Tut!
Hopefully if the GMC do their work properly in the Wakefield hearing we'll have a way forward to prove or disprove a link. That's another year of waiting.
The head of the British army during the Iraq invasion has said US post-war policy was "intellectually bankrupt".
Oh good
UK general attacks US Iraq policy!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and they attack our policy
The coalition of willing (aka
The coalition of yellow bellies) are now fighting among themselves. The Americans don't give a hoot about their closets ally.
The Iraq war is lost. Period
Anil,
The alliance is certainly out of the closet!
xx
ed
Autism studies are a long, time-consuming, and expensive process.
One leading US expert into this *range of disorders* has stated that when he "... began treating autism in the 1970s about 3 children in 10,000 were said to have Autism. Now, reports are 1 in 166 children have the condition. The number of cases has mushroomed because of better diagnoses, and *a changing definition of autism that includes a broader range of disorders*..."
A new and interesting model for understanding how Autism might be acquired has recently been published:
www.cshl.edu/public/releases/07_new_autism_model.html
Cameron (17) : I refer you to the entirety of the MMR conversation on this thread.
Yes there's a lot of frivolity on the blog. It reflects the tone of the PM programme.
There are plenty of 'sensible' threads if you prefer that sort of thing. Have you tried the Furrowed Brow lately? It's a must-read for those of us who wish to learn, and a must-say for those who need to speak out.
Let's have no more of this 'scrap the blog' talk, my friend. Just because you don't happen to like what you've seen of it, doesn't mean it's all rubbish.
Fifi
Deepthought (33): "Autism *is* increasing - no question of that." This is actually extremely questionable. It is more likely that more children are being diagnosed, and certainly in the case of Wakefield et al, wider definitions are being used (they typically refer to 'autistic spectrum disorders').
"Statistics don't work how you might like." Not sure what you mean here. As I said, my wife is a medical statistician. She trained at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, and now works at ICH/UCL. I get my statistics from her.
Karen (37): I believe the GMC are looking into dishonesty and unethical behaviour - which will not gives any answers to the MMR question.
Sid
Ref Saturday's program.
What's wrong with monoculturalism? It is after all the basis for states, where people of common ethnicity, values and heritage, find security in living alongside like minded people.
The project of multiculturalism, is an unnatural state, where people of difference ethnicities values and religions are thrown together, requiring heavy policing limiting free speech, expression etc to make it work.
The fact is multiculturalism is a project to inject tribalism into a stable mono cultural state,, which leads to disharmony, and desperate attempts to re-establish the cohesion lost.
So perhaps the 成人快手 sneeringly dismissive of monoculturalism, even though it flies in the face of the multicultural project they hold in such high esteem, yet which fails at every level.
Deepthought (28): "I am unaware of the original observation (evidence of the strain of measles used in MMR in the guts of children with autism) being disproved, or indeed of perfectly healthy children also showing this "symptom" (which would tend to disprove the hypothesis, or at least suggest that there is also a genetic susceptibility). Research teams on this topic appear to be working in headless chicken mode."
I'd be interested to know what you make of Brian Deer's suggestion that Wakefield's research assistant has confirmed that no such evidence (evidence of the strain of measles used in MMR in the guts of children with autism) was found.
Sid
I often feel that I should be questioning the pronunciation of words on the air - by various reporters and news readers, etc., but not by Eddie. Before I do that in any detail, and take the debate in a direction that perhaps it shouldn鈥檛 be going, do you fellows have any issues of that kind?
I can at least generalise and say that there seem to be quite a lot of Radio 4 persons who use 鈥榓r鈥 or 鈥榓h鈥 sounds for 鈥業鈥 sounds. Others seem to miss out syllables here and there.
Doc
I worked as a receptionist in an NHS hospital in the 1980's,Princess Diana visited as she was a Patron (her father had been a patient at the main hospital) they painted the coridoor especially but only down as far as where she was to be taken on the official walk about. No-one told us to cancel the clinics so we didn't but the administrators were horrified when the realised hundreds of patients were due for appointments that day. She was taken round by the top brass and we were working and didn't see her. She was offered coffee,cakes and biscuits but would only touch a sip of water.The matron could think of nothing inteligent to say except "I liked your wedding dress" but the consultants who met her who were the top in their field said she was really interested in the hospital and its work. I have some photos and ones taken by a colleague are much nicer than the offical ones which we had to order and pay for.
Sid (42,44),
I take your point that the increase in autism is (at least in part) due to much greater diagnosis. And, of course, of similar symptoms falling under the title of autism but having completely different causes - and probably one day will be given separate names.
Now I've not seen this no measles in the gut claim (as claimed by Dear) before (don't recall seeing it New Scientist). If true, it suggests that all the authors on the first paper are guilty, and that not one of them would have spoken out much earlier (say, to the Lancet, which had supported the claims for so long, or GMC), especially as the panic grew deepens their guilt. I did know about the Lancet's retraction, etc, as they were reported by New Scientist.
The GMC is not going to solve the question as to whether MMR is safe. As I said earlier, nothing is "totally safe", unfortunately a claim that was made for MMR. Unaware of the "no measles" claim, some of what I wrote before is weakened. I did point out that the claimed mechanism was just that, a claimed mechanism, and that I am unaware of any research looking for the measles in the gut of healthy children.
The GMC *may* have some success in finding if mis-practice was done or not - I don't have that much faith that any real result will emerge.
Amoung the casualties of this whole affair is the public perception of official claims based on science. The BSE episode, where initial official claims that all was safe (remember Gummer and his daughter with the burger) proved to not be true certainly did not help during this episode. But whatever the GMC result, the public will take a long time to regain confidence in such official statements, assuming no other episode occurs in the future.
I'm also non the wiser as to what the expected reaction rate to the MMR vaccine is (e.g. that from other countries).
New Scientist 3 March 2005:
"Parents need have no more fears about the triple vaccine against measles, mumps and rubella. A study of more than 30,000 children in Japan should put the final nail in the coffin of the claim that the MMR vaccine is responsible for the apparent rise in autism in recent years.
"The study shows that in the city of Yokohama the number of children with autism continued to rise after the MMR vaccine was replaced with single vaccines. "The findings are resoundingly negative," says Hideo Honda of the Yokohama Rehabilitation Center."
4 March 2004:
"Ten of the original 13 authors of a controversial report suggesting a link between autism and the combined MMR vaccine for measles, mumps and rubella have retracted the paper's interpretations."
31 August 2002:
"GUT disease does not make children more likely to develop autism. The new finding undermines a crucial link in the argument that the combined measles, mumps and rubella vaccine can cause autism.
"Critics of the MMR vaccine argue that it aggravates chronic gut disease, which subsequently triggers autism. But by analysing data from British GPs, Corri Black's team at Boston University has shown that children who developed autism were no more likely than others to have had gut disorders (British Medical Journal, vol 325, p 419). The results show that about 9 per cent of vaccinated children suffer gut problems, irrespective of whether they later develop autism."
Deepthought (47): if you prefer your evidence to come from the New Scientist, then I offer this selection of gobbets for your delight:
New Scientist 3 March 2005:
"Parents need have no more fears about the triple vaccine against measles, mumps and rubella. A study of more than 30,000 children in Japan should put the final nail in the coffin of the claim that the MMR vaccine is responsible for the apparent rise in autism in recent years.
"The study shows that in the city of Yokohama the number of children with autism continued to rise after the MMR vaccine was replaced with single vaccines. "The findings are resoundingly negative," says Hideo Honda of the Yokohama Rehabilitation Center."
New Scientist 4 March 2004:
"Ten of the original 13 authors of a controversial report suggesting a link between autism and the combined MMR vaccine for measles, mumps and rubella have retracted the paper's interpretations."
New Scientist 31 August 2002:
"GUT disease does not make children more likely to develop autism. The new finding undermines a crucial link in the argument that the combined measles, mumps and rubella vaccine can cause autism.
"Critics of the MMR vaccine argue that it aggravates chronic gut disease, which subsequently triggers autism. But by analysing data from British GPs, Corri Black's team at Boston University has shown that children who developed autism were no more likely than others to have had gut disorders (British Medical Journal, vol 325, p 419). The results show that about 9 per cent of vaccinated children suffer gut problems, irrespective of whether they later develop autism."
Sid
As an aside to the MMR debate, I thought it might be useful to say a few words on what a virus is, what a vaccine is, and how vaccines work.
Unlike a bacterium, a virus is not a living organism - just a strand of DNA/RNA wrapped in a protein coat. If you can remember any of the biology you learned at school, you may have heard of MRS GREN (aka the seven stages of life: Movement, Respiration, Sensitivity, Growth, Reproduction, Excretion, Nutrition). If something's alive, it can do all seven (in layman's terms, you can move, breath, feel, grow, make babies and go to the loo - and that applies to most of the individual cells in your body, as well as your body as a whole). If it fails on any of these, it's not alive. So although viruses can reproduce (with help!), some may move, and some may be able to sense if they've landed on an appropriate target, they can't grow, they don't feed, and therefore they don't produce any waste to be excreted - so aren't alive.
Vaccines contain either weakened or deactivated pathogens (viruses or bacteria). MMR is "live", which means that it the viruses it contains are capable of hijacking human cells in order to spread, but they've been tweaked so they don't reproduce as intensely as the real thing.
As vaccines contain samples of the 'real' pathogen, your immune system produces antibodies in response. Later on, if you get infected by a full strength pathogen, your body will use its reserves of antibodies to start fighting the infection during the time between the infection arriving and the new antibodies being produced. Therefore, by giving your body a 'head start' in the war against the pathogen, you're greatly increasing your body's odds of successfully fighting off the pathogen.
And while I'm on the subject, apparently the 'definitive' test to see if a farm animal has been infected by any particular disease in the past is to see if it has antibodies to the disease. If it has, then the animal is assumed to have had the disease. However, this doesn't take into effect natural immunity (bodies have a range of antibodies - and not just for pathogens already encountered) or antibodies produced by a vaccine response. This is the reason why whenever there's an outbreak of a "notifiable disease" in livestock, you'll find NFU spokesmen moaning that you can't tell the difference between an infected animal and a vaccinated animal.
And one last word on viruses - not all are bad for you. Watch out for mention of "phages" or "bacteriophages" - these are viruses that attack bacteria, and there are currently teams of scientists searching for ones that will attack MRSA and friends whilst leaving your body's cells alone - and one's already been found to deal with E. coli 0157 (it's called T4 and wouldn't look out of place in a Sci-Fi novel - search wikipedia for "T4 phage" and look at the diagram).
(38)
Agreed. Wholeheartedly.
Now the Brit Generals are saying it all went wrong through not implementing Colin Powell's post war plan.
No, it all went wrong thinking war was the way to change Iraq.
And the reason the UK and the US thought war was the only way is because for them dictatorship and majority rule are equally legitimate.
That's what they had in common with Saddam.
That's why they didn't think peaceful change was possible.
Both sides knew that dictators doing the 'right thing' (ie carrying out US - UK wishes) were encouraged everywhere in the world. And democracies doing the 'wrong thing' (ie thwarting US - UK policy) were undermined everywhere in the world.
(Try Arrow and Discussion 16 there (at the link)for an American account of how societies governed by majority rule can only be made rational by becoming dictatorships. And he got a Nobel Prize for saying so).
America and the UK, given the stance of their academics, could not find credible ways to persuade Saddam that it was time for change.
War was also a convenient chosen instrument for reasons of symbolism. Say 'USA' before the Iraq war and everyone thought of 9/11 and the planes flying into the Twin Towers. Say 'USA' now and everyone thinks of Shock and Awe and a quarter of a million US soldiers at war in Iraq.
Hegemony demands images of dominance. America is at it again. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are more pleasing images to American minds than Pearl Harbour.
Overkill overwrites the 'inappropriate' past.
America and Britain have proved they do not believe reasoned argument can bring political change. For them, see the link again, 'reasoned argument' identifies majority rule as 'irrational' and dictatorship as rational. That's what their most favoured academic elites maintain.
Re my previous post.
Erratum: Please see Discussion 25 at the link.
With apologies.
mac.
Mac
Basically Bush, Blair, Bolton Rummy, Colin, Condi, Cheney et al are a bunch of war mongering bastards. They all claim to be good Christians. I disagree. The are violent Christians. To be fair Muslims who have a siege mentality are the same. Violence begets violence. These Abrahamic religions have brought us nothing but violence
The Iraq war will haunt them well into the here after.
The reaction to planes flying into the Twin Towers was an overkill on massive scale.
Twin Towers was small beer. Thing like this happen. Worse has happened.
Fresh UK attack on US Iraq policy
Maj Gen Tim Cross, who was the most senior UK officer involved in post-war planning, told the Sunday Mirror US policy was "fatally flawed".
Here we go again
The Coalition of the yellow bellies is rapidly falling apart at the seems
The morons in FO and No 10 will no doubt side with the morons like John Bolton and play down the comments
God help this misguided lot
Not covered by Friday's PM but featured extensively earlier in the week...
Wonder what part PM contributed to this hopefully
good news for the soldier Ben Parkinson..?
www.observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2160832,00.html
"Disabled soldier's pay-out victory
MoD will review controversial policy
Ned Temko
Sunday September 2, 2007
The Observer
The government bowed last night to the outcry over its 'insulting' compensation plans for a young paratrooper horrifically injured in Afghanistan.
The Ministry of Defence has signalled for the first time that it will review the case of 23-year-old Lance Bombardier Ben Parkinson, whose injuries have left him disabled for life..."
Piper (55):
"But MoD sources repeatedly said it was 'highly unlikely' to be retrospective."
Sid
Doc H (45): As you asked so politely I feel I should answer. My response is 'no'.
Some people are irritated by perceived pronunciation 'errors', others are not. The language we use is constantly changing. It was ever thus.
There are many such circular discussions on the Word of Mouth messageboard - maybe you could bob over there to indulge this particular bugbear of yours.
Sid,
I use New Scientist as a source simply because I read it for a general overview of areas that I'm not an expert in. I certainly don't take it as gospel, and have found errors in it on areas that I am expert in. The Dear articule, however accurate the science, does appear strident and clearly against Wakefield, assigning to him motives (how does Dear know those?), and at least in part because his previous reporting on the saga has resulted in various legal actions/retractions.
I don't know what view the Private Eye publication on this topic said - I have not read that.
None of your extracts actually say "no measles found in gut after all". The Lancet retraction is reported, and that the claimed mechanism ("leaky gut") was not substanciated.
I'm not intending to post any more on this matter, but am more mindful that there could be scientific fraud in this saga as well (subject to GMC decision).
(54)
Agreed, agreed, agreed.
And when you look at the so called Christian countries, their populations are mainly Godless these days.
By contrast the nation of Islam preserves deep respect for the prophet Jesus Christ and his mother Mary.
Dear orange (57),
I have indeed been over at the WoM board in the past. Thank you kindly for replying.
Doc
The effect of social pressure on dispossessed communities is well known.
They feel the injustice of their position but that social critique is not supported by the dominant community. (They it is who have dispossessed them).
As a result their aggression takes on preposterous forms. Often it turns in on itself.
That is surely the classic explanation for black on black violence.
What is less recognised is that poor white communities (less dispossessed but still disadvantaged) feel a fellow feeling - a need to express thier discontent violently.
Again without proper political analysis the aggression can turn in on itself.
I鈥檓 not going to labour this, but when I wrote, 鈥渢here seem to be quite a lot of Radio 4 persons who use 鈥榓r鈥 or 鈥榓h鈥 sounds for 鈥業鈥 sounds鈥, I could just as easily have said that there do seem to be quite a number of posh-sounding southern English accents on news and current affairs programming.
I would suggest that the true 'yellow bellies' are Allah's foot soldiers those who blow up and murder in cold blood their own people.
Pronunciation - aided by cacophonous notes - is what makes us all have different understandings of pop records.
What was that about: You, blue, stuck in a groove, Cuthbert, Diddle, Rock?
Oh dear Doc (62), how you must've groaned on seeing how I'd misread your gripe! I've been dropping in on other messageboards, and on first sight thought I could try and save us from some pernickerty phonetic wrangling.
I must say, your 'ah' for 'I' swop still puts me in mind of a deep south american accent, if anything, so thanks for spelling out to me what you meant.
In terms of accents on news output, I don't get to listen to much more than a snatch of Today and about half of PM, but can report little of the glory that is the East Midlands accent in evidence.
OK. Listen out for words such as 鈥榝ar-arms鈥 - apparently they are a problem in our current day 鈥榮osarty鈥...
Sid
Sorry for delay - have spent entire weekend on call...
Looking at the GMC transcripts they are looking for malpractice but will have a thorough trawl through of the evidence, the way it was gathered and the inferences drawn. Hopefully if they do a full review then they will be able to acknowledge areas where inferences were drawn either with poor support - evidence not tested or corroborated - or completely inappropriately.
I'm still open minded on this one. I'd probably have any kids of mine vaccinated with MMR because every injection carries a risk. I'd rather that they were vaccinated with one shot than 3.
It was a subject that came up in our 4th year of our pharmacy degree and our lecturers were similarly vague on their thoughts. The evidence isn't really there but theoretically there could be a possibility.
Anyway, I'm now off to catch up on some sleep!