Scotland and Independence
will be a big talking point in the programme - sparked by from Scotland's first minister. Have a read - and, wherever you are in the UK - or the world - add your comment here.
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Eddie, tsk tsk. You will exceed your 1000 posts this way (though, as I've explained to you, you don't need to count Friday's New Beach, or Glass Box in your calculations).
So, 3 posts ago you said the total was 993, which presumably means you're now at 995?
Let's think now. You've done today's Glass Box, you've got Wednesday and Thursday to supply Glass Boxes to (=997), so you've three to 'spend' between now and Friday. And remember there'll be a lovely symmetry about it if the 1000th coincides with the moment the Blog began (12.22 p.m. from memory - Am I an anorak or what?)
So, a little of Mr. Brown's 'prudence' now! You've only 2 available, by my calculations, between now and 12.22 pm on Friday.
Then again - What the heck! - you could just get on with it and enjoy yourself.
There was a young man from Dundee,
Got stung on the leg with a wasp
When asked if it hurt
He said no not a bit
It can do it again if it likes!
Once united, England and Scotland created and sustained a global empire, forged the Industrial Revolution, and created an outpouring of scientific, medical, philosophical and architectural innovation which was the envy of the world.
But this once-strong marriage seems now to be turning to sulking separation. Fellowship has been replaced by rancour, and common purpose by suspicion and bickering. Scotland and England have been pulling apart since the discovery of North Sea Oil in the 1970s, though the establishment of a Scottish parliament in 1999 has been the catalyst for most of the existing mutual hostility.
I travel to Scotland often. I can see why devolution has proved popular in Scotland, yet has caused huge anger and resentment south of the border. Critics of the Holyrood parliament have accused it of a lack of radicalism, yet, to my mind, the opposite is true. Westminster could learn much from it. It has certainly brought government closer to the people; the introduction of minority parties through PR has stimulated lively debate; and much of the legislation, such as a smoking ban, funding of residential care and abolition of tuition fees, has been both populist and visionary.
The huge overspend on the new parliament building, which ended up costing 10 times its initial £40m budget, before a roof beam in the main chamber fell down and closed it, is symptomatic of a Scottish establishment mindset which sees the British taxpayer as existing to be squeezed rather than served.
Only recently, a new independent study by prominent economists revealed endemic waste in the Scottish public sector, adding up to perhaps £4.5bn a year. Health and education are revealed as particular culprits: despite the huge spend, both are areas where service provision verges on the lamentable. Increased investment, the report notes acidly, has resulted in bigger salaries rather than better outputs.
It is the English who pay for much of this.
Disentangling government spending is a notoriously difficult business, but it is generally accepted that Scots receive about £2,000 a head more in public spending than their English counterparts. Some of this can be justified – in a country with a highly dispersed and often remote population, service provision – from broadband to air ambulances – is going to be disproportionately expensive.
And other parts of the UK, such as Northern Ireland, also receive higher per capita funding. But there is still a Scottish addiction to the pork barrel which is irresponsible, unattractive and socially provocative.
There are other issues in the post-devolution settlement which rightly rankle south of the border. The so-called West Lothian Question, which allows Westminster MPs representing Scottish seats to vote on and decide matters affecting England, while English MPs have very little say over Scotland, is a nonsense which is causing very real embitterment. The result is that we have turned the British constitution into a dog's dinner.
It would seem to me that devolution would solve a lot of problems for England. One, all MPs with constituencies in Scotland would cease to in the English parliament. Oh dear, that includes the PM, what a shame. Two the Lothian problem evaporates with the MPs. And three - won't it be cheaper for us?
These are, of course, the reasons why it will never happen!
Why cannot Westminster pass a one line Bill to dissolve the Union right now? I'm fed up with the Scots tail wagging the English Dog, even before devolution.
Nothing against Scots personally...
I'm concerned about this 'act' which Eddie has mentioned in his 'Twitter' box.
Brings to mind the South-East weathergirl who, one evening, slipped onto her map place names that sounded like deviant acts.
So instead of Dover, Brighton, Eastbourne, you got Upper Dicker, Filching, Pett and a whole lot more. She might have added Badgers Mount, if only I could remember more of the forecast. I was laughing too hard to take it all in though :-(
It led to someone atwork the following day describing in lascivious detail what 'Filching' meant. He was wrong, of course. He meant Felching.
Si.
I'm half-English and half-Scots. My natural instinct is to say if the Scots want independence, they should have it.
But - some odd things come up in Salmond's paper.
The notion of a separate Scots army seems odd, for some reason.
Also odd are the assertions that the Queen will remain head of state, and that an independent Scotland would continue in the EU. There is an implication here that Scots would not have the choice - which in turn implies that independence would not be as complete as they think.
I'd say there's quite a lot of question-begging going on here, and a lot to be clarified before we go much further.
Sid
(or McSid, if you prefer)
Bring on the independance referendum - it's bound to be voted down, and that should be then end of all discussion, at least for a few decades. The SNP represent a minority of Scots, and many SNP voters don't actually support independance.
Then again, maybe not, it'll be a huge waste of money and a distraction from more important subjects, just to leave us (hopefully) exactly where we are now.
Nice to see Labour, the Conservatives and the LibDems are all able to agree on something!
- An Englishman (mostly) in Scotland
An independent Scotland - I look forward to a reduction in my tax bill once we stop subdidising them.
I was on holiday in Ottawa, Canada, last week where I found evidence of Mr Salmond's plans being more advanced than anyone thought. There is a bureau de change near the centre of town that advertises different rates for the Scottish and English pound! I took but the rates don't show up very clearly: they were selling 'English' pounds for 3 cents more than 'Scottish' pounds
Here we go again. The soap-dodging, benefit-fuelled career protesters find another excuse to cause aggro! The police will recognise half of them!
So far, all the "eco-warriors" (yawn) I have seen interviewed admit to going on regular holidays by plane! The usual hypocracy.
Why aren't they protesting at the Chinese & Indian embassies? Those country's output of CO2 etc. outstrips ours thousands of times over! so why don't these loonie lefties protest about China & India? Because China and India aren't part of the Western establishment these pretend tree-huggers hate so much, that's why!
Les Bate, Bristol
Joe (20)
I counter with:-
There was a young lady from Hyde,
Who ate a green apple and died.
While her lover lamented,
The apple fermented,
And made cyder inside her inside.
...and raise you
Les Bate (11):
Your post doesn't quite make clear whether you're in favour of independence for Scotland or not. In fact I'd go so far as to say it doesn't make anything very clear.
Sid
If we're smashing up Iraq, just to impose democracy on them, then surely we should accept that Scottish people have a right to decide whether to be independent or not. Once a majority say 'yes' then why not? As for the person who wonders about a separate army for Scotland - if they're independent, they should have one just in case England invades them for their North Sea oil. As for the Queen remaining as head of state, she's head of state for most commonwealth independent states. As for membership of the EU, Scots aren't really into UKIP type of politics anyway. So it makes sense decide Scotland would be part of the EU.
Until very recently I was opposed to any form of devolution of the UK. I hate the idea of the union being broken up and the prospect of another level of politicians and bureaucracy fills me with dread, however I'm beginning to wonder if a more federal UK with power devolved to the regions is the way to go.
I live in the South East, and from my point of view the distribution of tax pounds seems to be weighted heavily in favour of the north of Great Briton. Each year my County Council receives less grant from Whitehall and is forced to increase our council tax and reduce services.
Thanks to the massive restructuring of the civil service my wife's job hangs in the balance; the work she was doing has been moved to Birmingham where they have struggled to recruit to fill the posts - ultimately 2000 odd jobs will probably disappear from our town. Our hospital is under threat of being downgraded or even closure - ludicrous in a town with over 100,000 residents. (I could go on about the poor transport links - but I fear I'm already too far off topic.)
Is it any coincidence that this is all going on in an area that is staunchly conservative, while investment is pumped into labour strongholds?
Perhaps if locally collected tax pounds where spent on local issues maybe we'd see some better results from local authorities and health authorities.
So, yes let the Scots have their independence, so long as we can have it too.
There was a young lady from Riga
Who went for a ride on a tiger
They ended the ride
With the lady inside
And a smile on the face of the tiger
I've just realised I can't spell "Britain".
The shame! :¬(
It worries me that Labour, Conservatives and the Lib Dems in Scotland are ganging up and issuing a joint statement against Alex Salmond's plan for a CONVERSATION. What is it that they don't want to have discussed democratically? The fact that Scotland could be viable as an independent state, just like Denmark (same size of population), Norway, the Republic of Ireland and many others?
Or do they still insist on insulting the Scots by telling them that they are too stupid to run their own affairs? (Maybe that's what lost them the Scottish election in May)
Yes there are many questions arising... but let's examine them objectively.
Bring it on
I want Scotland to take over England! Then, cancer treatment drugs would be freely available, students wouldn't have to pay for university education, nurses would be given a fair rate of pay and pensioners wouldn't have to sell their homes to pay for their stay in a Nursing ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ!!!
Ahhhhh...... August 14th.....the new April 1st?
There was a young man in Baghdad
Who happily lived with his Dad
But a person named Blair
Dropped these ‘things’ from the air
And now he's no arms and no Dad!
Just to make it clear, I'm one for the English to do a Czechoslovakia on the Scots; let *us* decide that we want to break with them now.
I always said that the half-hearted devolution New Labour gave Scotland wouldn't work, and I was right.
Personally, I like the Union and the fact that people like myself (a Scot) can wander in and out of Wales, England or Scotland to live work or play without a great deal of fuss.
But let's get real about how the money works. It's not one lot subsidising t'other, it's about layers of government and bureaucracy gobbling up the money before it can do any good to real people.
The more government you have, the more you need to spend on the government. The more you spend on the government, the less is left to spend on people.
That doesn't make me a Tory, or a Communist, or anything else. It's the weary opinion of someone who has been involved on the (unpaid) fringes of local government for many years, watched administrations come and go, and despaired because the same have-nots still have-not at the end as they did at the start.
Remember what Macchiavelli said: The purpose of the politician is to get into power. Once elected, the purpose of the politician is to stay in power.
Please don't let's have this debate sink into Scots-English name calling. Devolution has been a massive red herring from the start. Either have a Union or don't; half measures will always end up with your glass half empty.
Fifi
"It is now ten years since the referendum to establish the Scottish Parliament. We have seen its potential to respond to the wishes and needs of the people of this country. But we have also seen the limitations of its current responsibilities. I believe it is now time for us, the people of Scotland, to consider and choose our own future in the modern world."
-- Alex Salmond
AYE to that!
xx
ed
Fifi (33),
"I always said that the half-hearted devolution New Labour gave Scotland wouldn't work, and I was right."
I don't think so! It's beginning to work really well. Read the conversation document. The best possible situation in a democracy is one in which there is no likelihood of any single party (or better, no two) to command a fixed working majority.
xx
e3d
yeah Ed as if....
Fifi has hit the nail right on the head with "Devolution has been a massive red herring from the start. Either have a Union or don't; half measures will always end up with your glass half empty."
I would be rather interested on how the Scots possibly think they have the strength of economy to fund themselves....and don't give the 'we have the oil and gas' story.....it's gonna run out!
DIY
Independence would be ruinous for the Scottish economy. The First Minister should try to win support with policies and influence in GB's Parliament, not this folly of independence.
I sincerely welcome the opportunity of visiting the World's newest independent nation - Scotland!
Good luck Alex.
Stephen
I like Scotland.
I like it as part of the United Kingdom.
If we start breaking up Britain where will it stop - an independent Leeds Metropolitan Area, the National Government of Kent?
Will the rest of the Union get a chance to vote on whether we want to devolve power to the Scottish parlianment?
Blimey! Embracing closer EU integration and while discussing greater UK diss-association, what's is this all about really?
Politicians ego's and legacies perhaps.....
I sincerely welcome the opportunity of visiting the World's newest independent nation - Scotland!
Good luck Alex.
Stephen
Great - let's get rid of Scotland.
Then we can have an England/Wales/N.I football team in the Olympics.
And we can have British Standard Time back again. Remember those three glorious years when we didn't have to change the clocks?
I voted for independence for Scotland before because Someone In Scotland said, "Oh it doesn't get light till 9.30am." Fine, I thought; Have your own time-zone!
Hight time Scotland was given back to its countrymen. Puting the fate of England back into the hands of Enlishmen.
there is no desire for independence in Scotland. Alex Salmond only got elected (with a minority government) because the last first minister Jack McConnell was such a dead loss. God knows how he got elected, purely through the demise of his predecessor. The danger is that Salmond is such a eloquent speaker, similar attribute to those of Tony Blair. he could persuade a fair number of voters, but I think we should have a referendum and knock the idea on the head, sooner rather than later.
If the Scots wish to have independence, fine; but make sure all the Scottish MPs leave the Westminster Parliament to the English. All Scottish MPs should return to their own country.
Let the Scots become independent if they want to. We are promoting devolution elsewhere in the world, e.g. Kosovo, so it would be hypocritical not to allow our own people the same chance to rule themselves.
Di (#26)
How absurd to say that Scotland couldn't go it alone economically. That's like saying that Denmark should be run by Germany!
The thing to remember about the West Lothian question is that it was dreamt up by a mischief-making opponent to devolution in order to throw a spanner in the works.
In fact, the answer to the WLQ is simple: the UK parliament needs to devolve the responsibilities covered by the question to an English parliament, in the same way it has done with Scotland, Wales and NI. This leaves the, perhaps slimmed down, UK parliament to legislate on UK issues.
Proposals to have the UK parliament discriminate amongst its members as to who can vote on which issues, ie English members only on English issue, is dangerous for the Union and plays into the nationalists hands.
Were such proposals implemented, it would turn the UK parliament into an English parliament, with residual control over a number of issues affecting the other areas of the UK. Just what the nationalists would love.
The key thing the English need to grasp in this debate is that the Westminster parliament is not and English parliament. If that's what they want then they need to set one up and not perform some sort of coup on the UK parliament.
Independence for England.
Stephen
Why do we have to listen to endless Scottish voices droning on about Scottish affairs? The population of Scotland is about 5 million; a tiny proportion of the UK total. Indeed most Scots seem to love their country so much they can't wait to leave it and live elsewhere. Does this topic really merit so much attention?
What a mess Blair has left.
(i) A House or Lords in a half reformed state who's members seem to reflect public opinion more than the government.
(ii) A house of Parliament where Scottish MPs get to vote on English issues.
(iii) Having lost Scotland to the SNP in a protest vote a Union that is a mess.
Give Scotland a referendum on independence. Then give the English a chance to vote on a modern system of government. Something like the US system with its system of checks and balances would be better.
As an English person, I want to see the end of the Union. Since 1945, an English elite has fooled themselves into believing that the UK is still a superpower. We're not. We hang on to this idea in the face of all evidence.The UK is an offshore island used by the USA as an aircraft carrier to make sure Europe can't threaten their power. The USA and all its presidents flatter our leaders, telling us we're one of the big boys and repeating the magic phrase "Special relationship." when they don't give a fig about us.We've squandered hundreds of billions on military fiascos. Aden Cyprus, Kenya, Blue Streak, TSR2, V bombers, Concorde, Ireland, Polaris, Trident, Iraq, Afghanistan and neglected our infrastructure -roads, railways, flood defences, hospitals, schools, crime, social services etc, etc.
So good luck to the Scots - and the Welsh too-
They can only do better than the English establishment that has run the Union for 300 years. It would solve the Irish question too.
And if the Scots don't vote for Independence, they are just a bunch of little North Britons, not worthy of the name Scots.
What would that part of the UK south of the River Tweed and west of the Irish Sea call itself?
In the past Scottish armies lead the way in creating the British Empire.
Today their armies occupy places closer to home.
There is one army occupying the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ - "the Kirsty overload" and another
occupying Westminster.
If Scotland gains independence they should pull back their forces north of Hadrian's wall and the wall should be electrified.
Wow! Such anti-Scots sentiment coming out here.
Member of the Public (3):
You'll get no argument from me on the West Lothian Question, or the appalling waste of money that is the Parliament building - that should never have been build, there were perfectly adequate venues that could have been upgraded. The arrogance and self-importance of politicians however are not unique to Scotland.
One place I would take issue is this figure of £2000 extra funding per head that you say is "generally accepted". I've certainly seen it often enough, but I've never seen a peoper reference to the source. Expecting a Treasury document, I usually end up with a pointer to an article in the Daily Telegraph or equally suspect source.
Perhaps you can enlighten me so that I can judge the matter for myself?
The quality of many of the posts here shows exactly why many fellow Scots are led to feel that England is a country with which they no longer with to cohabit.
Many of these comments reflect the way in which the English voting public has been poorly served by the UK-wide media in being made aware of the radically different way in which Scottish voters can now engage in the democratic process. Whilst such multi-layered government may add a small cost to the tax-payer the level of political engagement has dramatically increased.
If we're chopping bits off the country which receive huge public spending budgets then rationally we should be looking at saying good bye to Northern Ireland? But that just shows the facile and selfish nature of that line of discussion.
Perhaps more appropriate to the Glass Box, but why did we have to listen to the irony of 'Lord' Forsythe recommending a referendum on independence as a means to defend the union, when it was this very man's slavish imposition of Thatcherite policies in a country where there was no mandate which thus pointed up the hugely undemocratic possibilities allowed under the pre-devolution settlement and thereby hastened its end? Forsythe spoke for very few in the Commons and no-one but himself in the Lords.
Yes, 'Essex Lad', I agree it's time Scotland was
'given back to its countrymen. Puting the fate of England back into the hands of Enlishmen'.
Maybe then the economic migrants who come north to the Highlands to buy-up all our housing at grossly inflated prices, then form little committees to 'improve' the communities they've displaced, will go back south and organise the 'fate of England' instead.
We have a lot more than oil and gas to depend upon, certainly more resources in terms of industry and technology than Denmark, which manages perfectly well.
I wondered why Alex Salmond thinks a referendum necessary to achieve Scottish Independance, when all he actually needs to do is to ask the people, made sovereign by the Declaration of Arbroath 1320, whether or not they will ratify the Treaty of Union 1707.
The current Treaty of Union 1707, has never been ratified by the people, and therefore may not actually be legally valid.
Scots must either ratify the Treaty, or recall Scots MPs from Westminster.
England is represented by a government that was not elected by the english people. The english view is certaintly not put forward by the biased ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ. The scots are over represented in the media particular ly the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ.cThey are also over represented in the government. It is the non english MPs that prevent England having its own parliament. The sooner this is resolved the better.
Well done Mathew Rees & Paul Andrews..the truth always hurts folks... and now my two-pence worth, into this debate..
My wonderful late grandmother was born in Scotland before being taken to the Falkland Islands as a small baby on a troop ship going to the Boar War... in essence another Colonial fiasco of gigantic proportions....Hence, this is a possible supposition as I see it, if Alex Salmond is successful at freeing the Scottish Nation away from the jack boot of the English Ruling Class..again. He could be setting down a chain of events (sometime in the future) that could also free the English 'working class', chavs and the majority of 'wage slaves' in little England, for ever. Because without the Scottish MP's in Parliament we could end up with a Tory regime carring out Thatcherite type polices with such cruelty again, for generations that the French Revolution would appear like a Vicars tea party...just a thought; but worth consideration especially after seeing and hearing the great John Pilger in Bristol, last night..
Brian
A referendum on Scottish Independence? Yes, as soon as possible, but on that issue alone. Scotland should make up its mind whether it will stay or go. No "strengthening of devolution" option or other half measures to further disadvantage the English. We have been blackmailed long enough.
I cannot see why England would continue to be in Union with N Ireland in a post Scots-independance British Isles. (Alan, 45) Surely NI would have far more in common with Scotland, which was where many of the Ulster protestants would have originated from, than England, who has a poor reputation with the Ulster catholics.
As for Wales, I imagine it will the last colony to receive independance, but why do just do it all in one one-line act at Westminster, and dissolve all the unions?
Mr Salmond doesnt say very much in the link.
And I haven;t really thought it though either -
separate currency? Banking system? with adopting the Euro? border controls? armed forces?
If the answer is NO to all the above, then it is exactly the status quo.....n'est pas?!
n-n
sacrebleu (36)
the point I am making, which I believe may have passed over your head at 40,000 feet, is that at this moment in time Scotland DOES NOT have an economy upon which it can support its people and infrastructure, and probably never will have.
....beware the ides of Alex!
Eddie, do I agree or disagree? Yes! I agree or disagree.
Being an English Nationalist, and a republican to boot, I can honestly support the SNP and its goals. The actual end goal if we are honest is a federal system. Internal governance with a common external face. The EEC is the greatest threat, a largely unelected bureaucracy pursuing personal goals, to object is to be xenophobic, but I know where my loyalties lie. On an individual basis I don't care who lives in the UK providing they subscribe to the common culture that brought them here. Having lived abroad including the middle east and West Indies, I know this is what those countries require. Let the Scots vote (I lived there for ten years) the English will be denied the opportunity.
I suggest all here should actually read the document.
Then, perhaps, a sensible discussion of its merits (or the lack thereof) can occur.
Slainte
ed
Greetings to Sacrebleu. Where've ya been?
"When you are about to do an objective and
scientific piece of investigation of a topic,
it is well to have the answer firmly in hand,
so that you can proceed forthrightly,
without being deflected or swayed,
directly to the goal.
-Amrom Katz
Slainte
ed
Yes, lets give the Scots their independence, then perhaps (God willing) they'll all go back to "bonnie Scotland"and stop interfering in our politics, education, health care, banking and communication systems. Could we also create Hibernian immigratian control, perhaps securing the border at Hadrian's wall?
Scotland - who needs it?
I am fed up with being over-taxed to subsidise the Scottish.
Lets get rid of them, and see how they get on without the Post Office, the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ, subsidised health and infrasturcture etc etc etc.
Miranda (57) - I do hope you don't mean that we should give the Scots Northumberland as a leaving present!
Sid
Miranda Newton (57) - Hibernian control at Hadrian's Wall? Do I really have to go that way, rather than flying directly to London?
Hi Dr. H! How's you?
I agree and disagree.
But, above all, I'd hate for the English and the Scots to be at each other's throats. After all, I'm married to one ....
Miranda Newton now @ 58, please can we hang on to the results of their interference in our engineering and medicine, though? Or ought we just to stop using any advances Scots made and from which we have benefited? Not that I want to stop getting the advantage of for instance tarmacadam or steam power retrospectively or telecommunications or sundry antibiotics and surgical procedures, but I feel that we ought to be fair about these things and remember that over two or three centuries the English weren't terribly innovative in one or two fields...
Miranda Newton now @ 58, please can we hang on to the results of their interference in our engineering and medicine, though? Or ought we just to stop using any advances Scots made and from which we have benefited? Not that I want to stop getting the advantage of for instance tarmacadam or steam power retrospectively or telecommunications or sundry antibiotics and surgical procedures, but I feel that we ought to be fair about these things and remember that over two or three centuries the English weren't terribly innovative in one or two fields...
Miranda Newton now @ 58, please can we hang on to the results of their interference in our engineering and medicine, though? Or ought we just to stop using any advances Scots made and from which we have benefited? Not that I want to stop getting the advantage of for instance tarmacadam or steam power retrospectively or telecommunications or sundry antibiotics and surgical procedures, but I feel that we ought to be fair about these things and remember that over two or three centuries the English weren't terribly innovative in one or two fields...
"By the union with England the middling and inferior ranks of people in Scotland gained a complete deliverance from the power of an aristocracy which had always before oppressed them. "
--Adam Smith; The Wealth of Nations
"Yeah, Right!"
---
What's all the fuss about?
I don't often get drawn into the serious side of the Blog, but I'd like to express my horror at some of the comments expressed above.
I would go through the totally erroneous points made one by one but that has been done much more elegantly already. That doesn't mean I'm willing to read and be frustrated by some of the invective that's being hurled about, without protesting.
It's all very sad that the man on the top deck of the Clapham omnibus and the man at the top of the Scott Monument should have the impression that they are so far apart from each other in terms of humanity, so far apart that they should actively wish each other ill-will. As usual, disinformation from politicians and media sources may be targeted as the source of much of this bad feeling - please can we learn something from past mistakes instead.
There's not much point saying any more, it's not nearly so interesting reading how upset this makes me and so many others like me. I have no firm views on whether Scotland should be independent from the UK or not - I don't know enough about it. All I do know is that this venom and name-calling isn't going to help anything. If you're still reading, thanks.
Believe it or not, I didn't post my comment three times -- in fact I was under the impression that it hadn't been posted at all, because I got *one* "malicious" notice, and gave up and went to bed!
I know we are trying for 50,000, but I don't think we're so desperate that we need to *cheat*!
Sorry, all, not that I did it on purpose but I still feel bad about it.
49,601!
Val (68),
Can I recommend Brian 's Blether for a better view on this matter.
Once again, I recommend a reading of the actual document to anyone who wants to have an informed discussion.
Slainte
ed
Chris (69) - don't feel bad, it just makes up for the times when people lost posts altogether.
Val P. (68) I do agree, it's very sad that people are so wound up as to see each other as somehow 'the enemy'.
It's also dangerous since we have numerous instances in recent history when neighbours who had lived amicably together have turned on each other in violence. Don't know why we humans are quite so tribal or so easily roused against each other, but it happens and we need to remember that it does before descending to invective.
There is clearly a lot of disinformation around about who gets what share of which cake, if Eddie and the team can help to shed some light on the facts I for one would be grateful.
But Ed, @71, what on earth made you suppose that they wanted to have an *informed* discussion? Surely you must recognise Sounding Off by now, and realise that nothing gets in the way of a good rant so much as facts?
Nasty awkward things, facts, unyielding and unforgiving and they don't allow for wishful thinking. My shorthand for this is "Don't blame me for gravity! I voted for velcro."
The electorate in Scotland if given a referendum also need to consider whether they will gain greater diplomatic and political clout globally as part of the United Kingdom, or as a tiny country on a par with Belgium or Albania. Perhaps Scots will step back from the brink of independence when they consider the potential loss to Britain's nuclear defence capability on the excellent deep-water port at Faslane on the Clyde.
And maybe, on reflection, Labour-voting Scots will realise that they don't really want independence, but rather they desire a change of leadership at Westminster. At any rate, I sincerely hope that the debate on the future of the Union can be conducted free from the kind of narrow xenophobia and bile that does neither of our peoples any credit. The Union may have its imperfections which need ironing out, but it has served Great Britain well for the last 300 years. Even though I may be on my own on this one, I propose a toast: "To another 300 years of (relative) peace and prosperity."
Anne (72),
"There is clearly a lot of disinformation around about who gets what share of which cake, if Eddie and the team can help to shed some light on the facts I for one would be grateful."
You can find everything you need .
And you can get it in very readable pdf format as well.
From Brian Taylor's blog (see my namelink):
xx
ed
Tom Harrop @ 74, I'll drink to that!
Apart from anything else, most people I know from either side the border seem to have some Scots blood as well as some English, or some English as well as some Scots, which would make their/our position awkward. One can't put the blood one doesn't want into one arm and then cut that arm off.
There is a need to define where the boundaries of "Scotland" are and therefore what or who may possibly be seeking independance from what or whom. I am thinking particularly of the Orkney and Shetland islands. Thes populated not by Scots but by the decendants of Vikings with their own particular traditions. Any referendum should include a question as to whether they wish to be included in this view of "Scotland"
This may be a question which has been asked many times before, but if Scotland and England separate (and would Wales do the same, I wonder?), would each country have to reapply for entry to the European Union? Or would we still come under the original agreement?
Since the government decision to make Cornwall a unitary authority, a few people from Cornwall are talking about having a Cornish Assembly instead. Well, we are of Celtic extraction - we're a lot like Scotland, but at the other end and with a funnier accent. Mind you, as Chris Ghoti points out, there's been a lot of intermingling here too.
Roll on 50,000!
Not much happening on this blog.
How can we get a debate going?
The blog is about as quiet as a Scottish pay toilet.
That might do it.
Last week I was upset to find out how many contributors dislike children. Now I find they also dislike Scots.
Prejudiced bigotry, straight from the tabloids.
Eddie, you'll have to go back to Reporting Scotland when they throw you out. Apparently you are interfering in their "communication systems" (58), and are part of the "Kirsty overload" (43). Och well, we'll have you back.
a Scots wumman wi fowr bairns
Away and get on with your knitting!
Independence for Scotland will never come about, because the people realise that it cannot be made to work.
Nikki-N makes the point succinctly - armed forces? border controls etc.
Maintain the status quo and celebrate being same but different. (better?) - University fees, health service, judiciary.
Quirky difference is great for the tourist trade (thankyou for all your lovely English pounds), stubborn indepedence is not so attractive.
Wee 'eck has got off to a great start by pointing out that things can be done differently even if we are all one Union (animal movements started in Scotland within 4 days of the FMD outbreak) - but he hasn't got a chance of persuading enough people that independence will work.
Anne (80):
Mmmmm, "Kirsty Overload"...
As an outsider, it seem to me that it will be difficult for Scotland to become independent because:-
a) The Labour Party will oppose it as they need all the Scottish Labour MPs to have any chance to control the parliament at Westminister.
b) The Conservative Party has as its full name ' The Conservative and Unionist Party'; thus it will take a complete and utter change for them to give any support to independence.
c) Liberal party - completely ineffective.
Never the less, I (of half Scottish blood) wish the Scots 'all the best'
'Here's tae us - Wha's like us!' as my father used to say.
What would Scooby Doo?
Jacques @ 83, my wee grannie used to finish that toast:
'Here's tae us - Wha's like us!'
'Dom few an' maistly daed.'
DIY (53)
I did get your drift. Many people much more qualified than I am have said they're convinced of Scotland's viability as an independent nation. The former CEx of RBS for one (couldn't say so when in post) and likewise the head of the Scottish CBI no less.
Miranda (58)
It's not about repatriating Scots back up north or kicking the English out of Scotland. I like Eddie where he is! It's about having a mature discussion on how Scotland (and the rest of the UK is governed.
Scotland is perfectly capable of being an independent state. I just wish they would get on with it and do it.
If the Welsh did the same then England might finally get her act together, stop behaving like a daft old baggage - "I used to have an Empire you know" - and drag herself into the 21st century.
Trossachs (81)
"Wee 'eck has got off to a great start by pointing out that things can be done differently even if we are all one Union (animal movements started in Scotland within 4 days of the FMD outbreak)"
I agree he's mad3e an excellent start, but I disagree with your conclusion:
" - but he hasn't got a chance of persuading enough people that independence will work."
See the discussion HERE
for some enlightenment. (and follow the next few threads....
Slainte
ed
"Gai few an' they're a' deed!" was the version I learned.
The sound of summer from Birmingham! So what if it rained. It was lovely.
Mary