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There are millions of losers from the 10p tax debacle and the biggest loser of them all is Gordon Brown

It makes a mockery of the democratic process when MPs can be persuaded (or bribed in everyday language) to vote a particular way rather than based on principles.

Shame on our parliament and shame on the MPs who are not the least bit interested in reforming the so called democratic process in this country.

The democracy that we live in is an illusion and we have no right to refer to ourselves as a democracy.

What a sad, sad state of affairs.

A Labour Prime Minsiter on his knees to backbenchers to try to ensure that the low paid are more highly taxed.

Just who would vote for such a man? Other than saga, of course.

Like a second world war bomber limping home, shot to pieces, blinded and with a cabin full of wounded and very ill crew. This barely airworthy wreck may yet circle the landing strip of an election for some time yet, only making the inevitable crash to earth more disastrous for the delay. Love it, as Mandy and Jimmy wrestle with the controls!

'One MP I've just spoken to asked the PM for reassurance that a government funded project in his constituency would not be sold off. He was promised a meeting to discuss his fears in more detail. The government will now get his vote.'
Well, at least one MP is a fool. Isn't he?

Fairly innocuous issue (10p tax debacle)? I don't think so as we're into summer plotting season - backbenchers and cabinet members see an opportunity to unsettle Brown and this or another issue may be the 'straw that breaks the camels back' - and pushes him out.

Let us hope so!

The 10p tax issue characterises The Dear Leaders thought process. Having dreamed up a way of offsetting the reduction in base rate he was so anxious to trumpet as his main sound byte in that budget, he just didn't want to listen to those who told him it would penalise the poorest. To those who said the kimg hasn't got any clothes he said he must have I can see them.It must have been a little like "crisis? what crisis?" He was determined to steamroller it through, come hell or high water, except he like canute (wrong spelling according to some who who write here) could not hold back the high water.He caved in but instead of reversing his move the easy was (no U turn surely!) he dreamed up some complex scheme worse than what he had before. An unholy mess entirely of his making, and no-one else. Go now Dear Leader.

"All this over a decision taken in the last Brown Budget which for months the PM insisted did not produce losers and was not causing any political problems."

Clearly demonstrating his complete loss of a grip on reality. Also, can we call those that will be getting less or taxed more "those that lose out" or something similar? To call them "Losers" sounds so belittling in 'modern' parlance and as has been said there is only one "loser" in this equation, Brown...again.

By scrapping that rate, Gordon Brown declared himself my enemy and I'm not the only one.

When do we get *our* vote? On that day even Brown's henchmen whips won't be able to save the result.

Total and utter DESPERATION.

Get this CLOWN off - and lets have the NEXT CLOWN.

Pork barrel politics? - so that's what it's called when you put the interests of a few of your constituents before the need of the nation.

No wonder we have lost all faith - and this practice is seen a 'good'?

I guess that MP will at least get 1 vote (the Government) at the next election - even if it doesn't count - I wonder what his / her other 30,000 constituents will vote.

Nick - have you seriously considered changing your career? Politics has killed itself off I'm afraid and it's only a matter of time before the people take to the streets.

Civil war correpondent - now that's a career you can get your teeth into...

@poprishchin post 5

"At least one" understatement of the year

Does anyone remember Browns 75p pension increase, my Dad does, hence Brown won't be getting his vote just as my brother is suffering from the abolishment of the 10p tax band.

Two FORMER labour voters that will be backing David Cameron.

Here in the Netherlands, Brown and Nulab have lost a lot of respect.

People do not understand how such an unpopular government can go against the wishes of the electorate and act as if they are doing what's best, when they are patently just trying to save face.

A little embarrasing sometimes.

Listened to Frank Field on R5 today. There's an MP of principle - one backbencher who will not be bought off. He recognises the damage done to those with lower incomes over the 10p tax fiasco and intends to hold the Government to account.

If only they were all like him.....

Good to see you've highlighted the pork-barrel politics here Nick. This seems to be the disgraceful style when the government has its back up against the wall.

Even if the threatened revolt manages to wring out some concessions, the move shows up New Labour as a nasty party with a budget which would have hit the poor.

Isn't this also revenge for Frank Field who was frozen out of the race for speaker because he dared to put poor people above petty party politics?

#5

My thoughts entirely!

Any MP whose vote can be bought on the basis of a non-commital cozy little chat with the PM should be named and shamed for selling his constituents short.

Quote Meantime the whips have been mighty busy persuading the sick (Kali Mountford); the shamed (Elliott Morley); and the resigned (Hazel Blears) to back the PM. Unquote

Bullying I say, certainly not democratic. Looks like I'm wrong thinking these lot rob Peter to Pay Paul, more like rob Peter rob Paul and fritter the money away elsewhere.... looks like the PMs trying to avoid being a bad loser, after all he's never wrong and never makes any mistakes.

Sorry Prime Minister, you are plain ol Gordon brown not the messiah.... and never gets anything right.

He trapped himself into a corner on this one and thought it had gone away.

One million low paid workers have lost out. I heard someone say it was only a pound a week. Only a pound a week works out at 52 pounds a year. Enough to pay at least one fuel bill.

When some people are counting their pennies and are still having to pay tax to fund cheap mortgages and car scrappage schemes any Labour MP who votes against Frank Field's bill will be well scrutinised by us the voters.

This is a Prime Minister who clearly has loose or no morals.

I find it reprehensible that he can bribe MP's to cover up his mistakes and that his party will accept bribes rather than vote for the interests of the people who elected them.

Shame on him
Shame on them
Shame on us

Spin, manipulation, bribery and corruption. The mark of a dying nation.

This government makes me sick. I work hard for my money only to see it ripped from my fingers and abused by these parasites.

How they can hold their heads up any more is just incredible.

Call an election - now.

blue matter @ 3

who would vote for such a man? Other than saga, of course

I am a floating voter - I vote and I float - as it happens, I have very little to say in Gordon's defence on this 10 pence issue ... well, other than it was his (good) idea to introduce it in the first place ... thing is, he was quite obviously playing politics when he ditched it in the budget speech - not his best moment by a long chalk ... maybe among his worst

Of course all MPs should act entirely on principle and vote accordingly at all times. And all business leaders should ensure their customers come before their shareholders. And all journalists and newspapers should always speak the truth. The wish for perfection from Parliament will never be realised, but we should insist on transparency about every single aspect of what happens and then make our judgements. Just slagging everyone off and throwing up our hands in despair is pointless. Don't agonise - organise.

20. At 4:32pm on 07 Jul 2009, sagamix wrote:
blue matter @ 3

who would vote for such a man? Other than saga, of course

I am a floating voter - I vote and I float - as it happens, I have very little to say in Gordon's defence on this 10 pence issue ... well, other than it was his (good) idea to introduce it in the first place ... thing is, he was quite obviously playing politics when he ditched it in the budget speech - not his best moment by a long chalk ... maybe among his worst

=================

I thought at the time the introduction of the lower rate was a master stroke and certainly wrong footed the opposition parties at the time. As for its removal, it did not make sense then and certainly does not now. A really terrible decision.

"All this over a decision taken in the last Brown Budget which for months the PM insisted did not produce losers and was not causing any political problems."

This from "I always tell the truth" Brown.

More power to the elbow of Frank Field, a man of intelligence and integrity, what a pity there are not more like him in Westminster.

Is the pork-belly,scratching, politician from say,...Devon ??>>>''Pennies from Devon''

I'd just like to point out that the 10p tax rate was never scrapped. It was doubled for earned income.

The 10p tax rate for savings income still exists.

#20 sagamix

For those of us who saw Brown's triumphal grin, and the baying cheers of the Labour MPs behind him, when he announced the abolition of the 10p rate, that was sufficient to prove that New Labour had not only abandoned Socialism, but also concern for the low paid.

Since the consequences were obvious, it still beggars belief that some with tribal loyalties still support this UK Government. Of course, it's a bit easier for me since I don't have to choose between them and the Tories.

At least an honest man - Frank Field has just started speaking to overturn this nonsense.

14. At 4:22pm on 07 Jul 2009, jonties wrote:

Listened to Frank Field on R5 today. There's an MP of principle - one backbencher who will not be bought off. He recognises the damage done to those with lower incomes over the 10p tax fiasco and intends to hold the Government to account.

If only they were all like him.....
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As much as i admire Frank, he was bought off once before on this issue and i get that sinking feeling he will be bought off again... Even though he said he wouldn't.

20 22

Remember that the 10p tax band was not removed but doubled ....

I watch ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ Parliament a lot. I'm well used to excellent debates (the most recent being the debate on the Iraq Inquiry) with hardly a word being uttered by backbench supporters of the Government and the Front Bench team obviously bored and considering their only duty is to hold the Government line. Then, as the vote is taken, they all come out of the woodwork and vote for the Government, not having heard a word of the debate. It'll doubtless be the same tonight. Frank Field is up at the moment - good luck to him and he's gone up in my estimation for obviously understanding how this has hit people with low incomes. Mind you, why would MPs be interested in the poor? And why would the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ? Michael Jackson's memorial service is obviously far more important.

This Labour Government are simply despicable.

Elected officials, and I mean worldwide, are the same. Financed by business, protectors of wealth, both individual and corporate, and providers of vague promises to those casting votes, or just presenting positions they never intend to defend. Current politics are like the steam engine, combersome and inefficient and costly. Politics have run the course and become distant from the people and internally corrupt. Reform is not a bad word if real and not like the recent past which meant that the system would become more corrupt. Maybe some ethical behavior could become in fashion, maybe less greed and more thought for what is best for all the people and not just a select group. Maybe voters should expect more from those elected and when not satisfied, elect someone new. When citizens don't object politicians believe they have consent...they always think silence is approval. If you think they are all corrupt, they will be. Because they have created a mess we shouldn't let them come up with easy solutions that benefit a few but promise the rest of us some rewards in the future. There is a difference between politics and religion and I would rather have some returns that might be realized in this life-time from my elected officials. Currently our wages are paying for their sins.

"25. At 4:54pm on 07 Jul 2009, ColonelDigby wrote:
I'd just like to point out that the 10p tax rate was never scrapped. It was doubled for earned income.

The 10p tax rate for savings income still exists"

Only under Labour could it be claimed that a doubling of a tax rate did not represent the scrapping of the old rate.

Besides, the 10% tax rate for savings only applies if your non-savings income is below the starting rate band, meaning (in practice) that if your non-savings income is above around 8,900 p.a. then your savings income will suffer the 20% rate.

(Another example of how GB's endless tinkering has made tax so complex).

32

Yeah. It's a load of old balls.

This is a very sad day for Democracy,The low paid are being hit hard with the 10p Tax rate while MPs can demand thousands for Gardening!! And all because we have a Prime Minister who was never elected in the first place.
I now see why people turn to crime! A very sad state of affairs indeed

Not a surprise at all. This government are not interested in the public at all. They vote for what they want with no regard for the electorate. They have a scorched earth policy and when we get our turn we will vote against them.
We are all going to pay for decades for their utter ignorance, incompetance, greed, self interest, and shallowness. I have never had any faith or expectancy of houour from them so no surprise. What promises and trades were made to achieve this win. When good men do nothing...........