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"Earlier the chancellor told Greg Pope and Frank Field that he would consider new measures in his autumn pre-Budget report."

Is that the same as the Pre-Election Borrowing Giveaway?

They really are a spineless bunch. If they can be appeased with promises of "we'll do something later" then they deserve the trouncing they will get in the general election. If they believe any of Gordon's promises, despite the evidence that he doesn't intend to do anything about this, they are more stupid than they appear.

It really says something when a labour government is whipping its backbenchers to ensure that the lowest paid members of our society have to suffer a tax rise to pay for a tax cut for the middle and well off.

I really fear another climb down is on the cards. MPs being swayed from their original principles is dispicable. We really are in political melt down now. Have said before but i was once proud of our Government. Now i am ashamed.

Hang on, isn't the government supposed to serve the electorate ?

So apparently these "principled" and "honourable" MPs can be oh so easily bought.

Sad.

Something smells fishy in the state of the Treasury.

From a government that has forced so many legal changes through on a whim, I suspect that this is more about not losing.

Can this parliament sink any lower?

Yes.

Don't forget to check on how your MP voted. Why not send them a note as well to register your opinion...



or

Greg Pope. Who's he?

I do hope his isn't a marginal seat for his days are certainly numbered.

To put himself forward as a champion for the poor only to retreat because of a little bit of bullyimg is pathetic.

This is pretty exciting stuff to see some Labour MP's who do have some backbone standing up to the executive.

I hope they will not be let down by the rest of the oppressed or depressed. Even the whip Hilary what's her name is getting out.

"Earlier the chancellor told Greg Pope and Frank Field that he would consider new measures in his autumn pre-Budget report."

They were going to do this last year but didn't. They're just not bothered about the 1.3 million - they're not enough to get them re-elected are they?

I think the whole affair shows the calibre (more correctly the lowness of it) of the MPs we have at the moment.

If anyone's in a position to realise that the government cannot be trusted it's their own backbenchers, if they are dumb enough to believe this sort of spin then what hope have labour voters got?!!

If anyone needs a particularly obvious example as to why Labour no longer work for the Working Class, this is it. Abolishing the 10p rate takes money off hard-working people who aren't as fortunate as others. Surely these people need more help not less?

I expect Brown will come up with the answer

"Under NewLabour I have abolished the trivialities of the maximising or minimising of spending, budgets and cuts and from now on all three will be miximised".

Expect stunned silence from the HoC followed by a sad nod of agreement between Darling and Cameron and the entry of the men in white coats

Usual shambles then.

It beggars belief that after 12 years in power, a government can be so administratively, economically and politically incompetent.

The Labour Party is in a shocking state. One wonders, however, if the other lot are any better equipped to govern than the socialists?

Our political class is a disgrace and this is just another example of the dire state of British political leadership today.

Prime example of why this Government is dead in the water. It cannot do anything now without compromising or doing a deal.

They've got to go now so we can get some leadership in these toughest of times

Earlier the chancellor told Greg Pope and Frank Field that he would consider new measures in his autumn pre-Budget report.

Isn't that what he said last year

At least there are a few honourable people left in parliament,the spineless pope should get his reward from his electorate.If this problem had been acted upon earlier instead of the £2.5 billion give away to try and buy a by-election where the lowest paid were ignored for political gain,and labour even managed to lose the elction.

#8 virtualsilverlady
Greg Pope. Who's he?

I do hope his isn't a marginal seat for his days are certainly numbered.

=====

Greg Pope MP for Hyndburn. 7.8% swing needed by the Tories.

Abolishing the 10p rate was a serious mistake, but one which could have been so easily rectified. Instead Labour decided, as is usual in UK politics these days, to do things the hard way, just for the sake of it. The easy way would have been to put it back as it was before the abolition - simples!
But then they do have to 'appear' to be doing something, apart from ripping us all off that is!

It's not surprising to see that the usual suspects who jumped all over Cameron and his quango bonfire announcement are missing on these 10p tax rate blogs. Glad to see saga making a comment on this debacle, but where are all the others? They usually appear late afternoon, but not a peep on this one. More motivated by shallow tribalism than by genuine concern over their fellow citizens?

it looks and smells like the brown whips have been busy getting those unruly mp's to tow the party line.
party politics have destroyed this country its time for a change, real honest change.

There never was any chance of these unprincipled yes men ever rebelling against their political masters. Frank Field has huffed and puffed throughout his career, but has never put his neck on the block; it's all principle and posturing but no substance. The only way to get rid of this immoral unprincipled and incompetent government is at the ballot box. Why no comment Mr Robinson on the "defence revue " (code for defence cuts ) ?
This is apparently just a revue, with no decisions implemented till after the election. Believe it if you like. This is a statement of intent to decimate the armed forces , but not until after the election . If the Tories win , then the problem will be theirs, along with all the other hard decisions this government is deferring " till after the election ".

Didn't take long for the wheels to come off as soon as GB leaves the country the plotters are on the prowl again.

19. At 6:42pm on 07 Jul 2009, TheBlameGame wrote:
It's not surprising to see that the usual suspects who jumped all over Cameron and his quango bonfire announcement are missing on these 10p tax rate blogs. Glad to see saga making a comment on this debacle, but where are all the others? They usually appear late afternoon, but not a peep on this one. More motivated by shallow tribalism than by genuine concern over their fellow citizens?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

With all due respect Blame, Saga has been a tad sporadic on here recently, i tend to think he is more of a take the micky for the sake of it poster

Actually, i would like to know what the Labour supporters on this blog think of this latest from Their glorious leader ..... Where are you all ?

Oh well another honourable chanced missed.....

oh the okie-koke,

you put your 10% tax break in

you put your 10% tax break out

you put your 20% tax break in

you put your bank baliout billions in

they take there bonus out

you put tax breaks in out in out

turn around and spin , spin , spin at lot

you flip your first , second and third homes

you dip and dive your CGT

you swirve and dive you Council tax

and shack them all about.


This makes it look like Healey + Co actually had some idea about what was going on.

Now wonder the reporters have trouble keeping up with the full extend of the problems around tax.

it looks like Bob Hope has just left town leaving us with No Hope.

· 3. toughtopperbrown wrote:
I really fear another climb down is on the cards.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Youre having a laugh here because they cant climb down if they never climbed up.
Did you really think these spineless backbenchers would put up a decent fight?
How many times have they put up their fisty cuffs, only to go running behind the bike shed when the school bully arrives?
What an absolute load of old twaddle they listen to as well.
Come on; the Pound will not collapse if the 10 percent band is reinstated & our countries economy will not deteriorate any more than it already has.
These are pathetic scare stories & show just how desperate Darling is becoming.
Darling had no problems in forking out many Billions of Pounds to prop up the Banks & he still seems to find Billions of Pounds for Foreign Aid, even though we are flat broke & desperately need to sort our own house out.
And they cant work out why people are leaving them & moving to the BNP.
Wakey, Wakey.

FF's clause amendment defeated by 43.


Let's hope those Labour voters who could least afford it, will not forget the cynical attempt by Brown to win over Middle England at their expense.

Nick.
We really do now truly have a "Turn-Style" Government in Nu-Labour whereby what ever they seem to do keeps coming around and around again.

It further seems that this Government is living, and dying a slow death by the hands of its own Back-Benchers, as well as everyone else who has an outstanding gripe and score to settle, for whatever else is now daliy happening we are continuing to see a Party of Government in total Melt-Down, and for ALL our sakes lets hope it will not be much longer now before we finally arrive at a chance for ALL of us to pass our verdicts on this Government failures in the 10p issue as well as the many others issues in the form of a General Election.

Notwithstanding the expenses fiasco, this is the most singular act that damaged Duff in the eyes of the British public.

Nick do you also remember the event that occurred shortly after the 10p fiasco kick off. The Crewe and Nantwich NuLabour bye-bye-election.

Nick what effect do you think this 10p second round playoff will have on the Norwich North bye election?

Yep two weeks this Thursday NuLabour will face the electorate. I have booked a ringside seat.

Some things you can't buy, for everything else there's Barclaycard.

Roll On 2010 - The Biggy.

And how many Service Personal have lost their lives in the last
week ?

And these Cowboys are making decisions about the why , where and with what they are losing them for?

It makes you sick in your stomach to see these donkeys in charge.

Maybe there should be a coup for the sake of the country

That Was the Tax Rebellion That Was .... then.

So no surprise.

Just wonder whether Nick's next posting will be titled: "Government steamrollers through doubling of initial tax band for the poorest"?

Don't think so.

Can anyone point me at any example (just one would be useful) of a simple change to the tax system which benefits Joe Public?

No wonder we are governed by a bully and a liar. Look at the cowards that look to lurk in dark gloomy shadows of the Labour party but are afraid to do so in case they bump into their own sullen and immoral little silhouettes. With these Grima Wormtongues rasping their poisonous venom is it no wonder that a mad man can be left to run OUR country unchallenged. There has never been a greater need to place an X in a box in modern times. Afraid to do the right thing because you will loose the next election that you are going to loose anyway. Why not remove the rot and try as hard as you can to patch up and pass on something that resembles an act of sanity and honour to the next government or is there really not one soul left that remains uncorrupted?

Well Duff, since he became PM, has had his few brief moments in the sun. Now he is back in the mire where he belongs.

I remember not long ago one blogger said:

Duff just stumbles from one cock-up to the next, it's getting difficult to see where one cock-up ends and the next one begins.

Seems rather apt now!

So GB has waved two fingers at one million low paid voters.

According to all the news reports the 10p rebels were defeated by GB and Co lying to MPs and frightening them about the effect of their ammendment on the entire finance bill which would fall.

Experts in parliamentary procedure say that is nonsense and if the ammendment had won it would only require another ammendment to adopt it as part of the finance bill.

So not only doe GB have problems with veracity again but he must consider he does not need a million votes and the votes of the families of that million.

I keep pinching myself but I dont wake up !

and all this started with slight of hand in his last budget
when he new he was soon to be PM and call a election in the october.
to try and wrong foot the tories over tax

which he bottled over IHT or CGT (???)

And none of this mention by Mr Nick, the history of the 10 tax issue
are as important as the effects on the poor. As both show the contempt that Nulabour has for the working classes

Two Men's vanity and a whole nations mess

How many will now vote for the BNP as a result of this then ?

Any political fallout analyst on this then ?

Nick can you post a list of NuLabour MPs who voted against this amendment.

As you did last July on the occasion the MP's voted against the expenses debate.

Or at least a list of the rebels who voted for it.

on @ 30

this is the singular act that damaged Duff the most in the eyes of the British public

maybe, Roll ... but that dive off to Iraq in the middle of the Clown conference was, for me, right up there too ... both were instances where he appeared to be 100 pc calculating politician and very little else ... still, Catch always looks like that so, you know ...

world @ 23

Saga has been a tad sporadic on here recently

quality not quantity, Ghost ... that's what counts

Another end to another phoney war.

It's like watching Gilbert and Sullivan but with no happy ending.

The longer it goes on the more we see what a load of zombies were voted in to run this country. All pre-selected for their inability to think and vulnerability to brainwashing.

A little bit of excitement today at the thought that there may be a flicker of concience among them but sadly they turn out to be no hopers.

Frightening to think that they are still the ones in charge of our economy for the next few months.

"It's not surprising to see that the usual suspects who jumped all over Cameron and his quango bonfire announcement are missing on these 10p tax rate blogs... They usually appear late afternoon, but not a peep on this one. More motivated by shallow tribalism than by genuine concern over their fellow citizens?"

I admire your "Concern for fellow citizens" but maybe you should get over yourself? You seem defensive of Cameron tribe? and I've never seen a shallower tribe than the Current Conservative party.

Lets face it. Non of you cyber revolutionaries are interested in the poor. It was a good idea for Labour to introduce the 10p rate. and not so good for them to withdraw it. but it wouldn't be there if it was up to your shallow tribal leader. I blame Thatcher for your attitude.

Just for a few minutes I though Wow! this is just like the expenses furore. All of us singing from the same hymn sheet.

And now its back to blue/red yah boo sucks. Such a shame.

Can you not put aside your partisan feelings and think how the lowest paid have just been stuffed, AGAIN.

#40 sagamix

Naw saga my moment was Duff telling Teflon Tony he had a blank cheque for Iraq in 2003.

Certainly hit my ezone.

Nick what do you think the media headlines will be tomorrow?

Good article in the Telegraph today:



In a NuLabour land some of the lowest-paid are paying higher marginal rates of tax than millionaires?

So 42 dhwilkinson we have no concern for the poor. All I can say is that I watched the original budget presentation by Brown and could not believe that a Labour Chancellor could present such a proposal - worse that the Labour Cabinet could agree it. Don't lecture me on Thatcher as I did not support her. However, my support for Labour disappeared that Budget day as no longer could the "son of the manse" be seen as having any credibility as a Chancellor, let alone as future PM. Whether the Tories have got it or not, the thought of seeing a party continue in power under Brown can only leave Britain's poor worse and worse off. The sham of soaking the rich is just that - a political ploy - it won't help those who still lose from the loss of the 10p rate

Well Nick it looks like 30 NuLabour rebels voted for the budget amendment.

Truthful and moving speech by Frank Fields:

The golden thread that knits us all together is that we came into this place not only to protect but to advance the interests of those who get the least from life.

The 10p is a denial of all that we have come into public life about, and this is our last chance before the general election to rectify it.

Have NuLabour moved that far from its core beliefs?

Unfortunately Frank it was not enough to move some of the noddies you work with.

46

Thats me told! Good luck with whatever it is you're trying to achieve!

The 10p rate shouldnt in my view have been removed but what do I know? Im a nobody commenting on a blog like you. There could be a reason. Maybe its because its subsidising wealthy couples who have a partner with an extra part time job. rather than helping who its meant for people who depend on that low paid job.

unfortunately mr pope has signalled his intention to leave parliament at the next election so his accrington constituents (who, on average, have among the lowest per-capita income in england)will be denied the opportunity to demonstrate their support. nice one greg!

"Earlier the chancellor told Greg Pope and Frank Field that he would consider new measures in his autumn pre-Budget report." Always "going to be done in the future" with Labour but it then never happens. But between now and when Darling gets round to thinkign about doing anything/nothing those on low incomes who were not "compensated" because Brown felt unable to U-turn after making a daft decision can all still be worse off in already very difficult conditions.

Labour used to be the party representing the less well off. They seem to have deserted them these days (maybe not enough votes in it for them).

42. At 8:19pm on 07 Jul 2009, dhwilkinson wrote:
"I admire your "Concern for fellow citizens" but maybe you should get over yourself? You seem defensive of Cameron tribe? and I've never seen a shallower tribe than the Current Conservative party." etc.

46. At 8:41pm on 07 Jul 2009, distressedone wrote:
"So 42 dhwilkinson we have no concern for the poor." etc.


Bit bizarre this. I thought dh was addressing me. However...

Just to put my record straight. Wrong on all fronts dh. Thatcher. Never voted for her. Demo'd against. Don't blame her for all our problems, moved on since '90. At least she had some b*lls. I don't take the view that this government is somehow acceptable because the Tories will be worse. I do not have a problem with Cameron on Quangos, just the way he announced it. If you read my post I wasn't referring to my own concern for my fellow citizens, rather those who are quick to slag the Tories but not so quick to hold their government to account. Strange when 'abolishing' the 10p tax rate was so alien to what Labour stands for.
I'm very unlikely to vote Tory in the GE, will be sharpening the knives for DC if he gets in. Maybe I just have a problem with authority dh. You know what they say, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

sorry about that blame but its quite humid up even up here and I flamed at your comment which was quite provocative. Being a significant proportion of tribe you refer to as "the usual suspects" on the quango blog. you suggest I should inform you that I commented on this in the quango blog. I was critical and have been critical here. I also commented on the quango situation. fairly impartialy criticising politicians in General for trotting out this Quango line. As did another('the' other I think) Eaton Rifle. If we did comment here short of complete outrage about the 10p cut or even offer the fairly rational explanation I have given. We would be Ironically dismissed as Trolls! So I think not commenting is comment enough and there is no need to be judgemental about it.

fairlyopenmind

Tax cut benefit? One the reduction of VAT by 2,5% however the loss of revenue has resulted in other stealth tax increases to make up for it. So I suppose you're right.

So. The myth that Labour tax policies target the richer in society is exploded. What kind of 'moral compass' allows the Prime Minister to alter the tax regime to make the less well off, including pensioners (such as myself), pay more income tax? Shame on the Labour government, shame on Labour MP's. But will the Tories pledge to reinstate the 10p tax rate if they are elected and so follow through on their Commons vote yesterday - or was that just posturing and opportunism?

19

Yes you are a little judgemental aren't you. How would you like to be dismissed as one of "the Usual suspect." I don't like to state the obvious. but I was against the removal of the 10p limit. The downside of the 10p limit is though that it isnt targeted. It subsidises wealthy couples who have a partner who works part time for a bit spending money. It would be better if it could be targeted to help people who depend on that low paid job. Don't want to massage the inflated egos in that troll fest on the current blog.

52. 55. dhwilkinson


Fair do's dh. I'm happy to take criticism, deserved or otherwise.
I would probably agree with you on some issues, just have a different way of going about it. I'm more focussed on holding those in power to account rather than those in opposition.

55.

PS Isn't 'usual suspects' better than 'trolls' which is pretty damning?

"I'm more focussed on holding those in power to account rather than those in opposition."

There are plenty of people who appear to feel the sameway. I see no point in just paroting what other people have said over and over again. By opposition you mean the opposition who feels it is the natural sucessor of this government? Maybe someone should challenge them as to why they are? What reason other than by default or time for change should they take over? Anyway my position isn't a NuLab troll or Usual suspect. It is to challenge the political and economic system. which (I'm sorry if this upsets you) started in the 1980s after the disaster that was the 1970s Labour party. The Thatcher thing started after I made this point and someone accused me of blaming Thatcher. So I ran with it.

"dhwilkinson wrote:

There could be a reason. Maybe its because its subsidising wealthy couples who have a partner with an extra part time job."

Wow, I don't think even Mr Fantastic of the Fantastic Four could stretch that far :)

But seriously if that is the reason why doesn't the government tell us it is? Well apart from the fact that it would probably be a core vote loser!

58.

Nothing wrong with challenging the system.

In general, your default position seems to be to attack the Tories on whatever the blog topic, with a sprinkling of criticism for the government.
My default position tends to go the other way. I suppose that balances things out. Back to our starting positions then.

Good old Frank Field, you can always rely on him to propose something that will never get approved while at the same time making him look like he cares about the poor.

In my opinion, the 10p tax rate was little more than a political gesture from the Labour party, if they really wanted to help people on low incomes they should have raised the Income Tax threshold to £20,000, made National Insurance 5% for everyone with no upper limit and they should never have introduced working tax credits (or whatever they're called this week).

59 Mark_we

Amazing how you can change a message with a little editing. I said I didn't necessarily agree with the dropping of the 10p rate and I offered a possible reason. I said I don't want to parrot what other people have said. Nor do I want to parrot what I've said. I don't answer for the government.

Trying to string me along all day is a familiar pattern and my typing fingers are getting itchy.

50. At 10:20pm on 07 Jul 2009, DeimosL wrote:

Labour used to be the party representing the less well off. They seem to have deserted them these days (maybe not enough votes in it for them).

"Less well-off". I love that! Agree with your sentiment though.

61. At 12:35pm on 08 Jul 2009, Secratariat wrote:

In my opinion, the 10p tax rate was little more than a political gesture from the Labour party, if they really wanted to help people on low incomes they should have raised the Income Tax threshold to ?20,000, made National Insurance 5% for everyone with no upper limit and they should never have introduced working tax credits (or whatever they're called this week).

Spot on. And an income-based Council Tax would also be quite helpful to people on low incomes. What a symbol of the re-claiming of socialist principles that would be! What a rallying-cry! With that one move they would probably bring half the country behind them again. So no chance.

We can't call it a poll tax anymore because:
a) Some people don't pay it. MPs for example, and
b) It was outsourced to Councils (a stroke of Tory genius).

"dhwilkinson wrote:
59 Mark_we

Amazing how you can change a message with a little editing. I said I didn't necessarily agree with the dropping of the 10p rate and I offered a possible reason. I said I don't want to parrot what other people have said. Nor do I want to parrot what I've said. I don't answer for the government."

If you don't agree with the 10p tax policy why are you trying to find reasons to justify it? Especially one which is so flawed (all tax allowances apply per person - regardless of how rich their partners/parents/roommates are)

To be honest your suggestion does sound reasonable from a New Labour spin point of view - don't focus on how badly the core vote are hit from a policy but distract them with how hard the rich are hit!

Slight of hand and smoke and mirrors is no way to run a government, but I am sure we can expect more of the same if the Tories get in.

Trying to string me along all day is a familiar pattern and my typing fingers are getting itchy.

65 Msrk_WE

I'm sorry I have to say this again. I don't speak or 'spin' for the government. It is possible to disagree with something without getting all melodramatic. Decisions like this are not made because according to the blogspher 'Labour are pure evil'. They just wanted to make people cry! The simplistic approach adopted in blogs like this who's contributors all claim to be impartial. There are reasons. I pointed out a problem with the 10p rate and that it wouldn't exist if the Conservatives were in power. Doesn't mean I agree with its removal!

Yes the allowances do apply to everyone. They helped many of those who lost out but there are others who are still worse off. Thats a bad thing! There you go how's that? The thing is should this 10p rate help people who are doing OK get an extra income? or people who need that job? That is a Point I put forward. Im sorry if it was off-Message for the blogsphere. Actually I couldn't care less if it was. Brilliant if it was in fact. Most of us are here for fun aren't we?

I also have concerns about taking people earning under £20000 out of tax altogether for 2 reasons. There's a kind of political fact that maybe people could care less about that it would create a new group of non taxpayers to snear at and scapegoat, and then there's the wealthy couple again. 1 person doing £34000 salary job pays tax on that amount minus the allowance. 2 people doing £17000 salary job get £34000 tax free. Potentially taking jobs away from people who need them. The 10p option is better. Again I am arguing against my own political leanings. Being impartial! Not spinning for anyone!