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Wise words. The bible is what it is. It isn't the "word of god", and regardless of whether it was *intended* to be taken literally, it most certainly *shouldn't* be taken literally.

[As for Judas, one theory is that Jesus wanted him to contact his militia for a gathering at Gethsemane to prepare for a formal assault on Jerusalem. But it was a set-up, and Pilate's intelligence launched a sting, using Judas as their man on the inside. We already know that Jesus had a number of powerful contacts who were unknown to the disciples. The disciples were very much the stooges, although what their precise role was to be in the attack is not clear.]

If I have quoted the following from W.R. Rodgers before, please accept my apologies, however it does seem rather appropriate that I include these, the thoughts of an Irish Presbyterian minister, on this thread.

W. R. Rodgers ministered in Loughgall until 1946 when he moved to London to work for the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ and the section quoted below is from 'Resurrection, An Easter Sequence'.


"And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say onto you, that one of you shall betray me.

Name him not, Name him not, nor constellate
The one who led him to his fate. Nevertheless
Judas was part of Jesus.
For the god has always a foot of clay, and the soul
Grows in soil, the flower has a dark root.
And deep in all is the base collaborator.
The betrayer is ever oneself, never another.
All must say, 'Lord is it I?' There is always
Evil in goodness, lust in love, dust on the dove's foot,
And without it purity's groundless. And the Cross
Had never been."

Helio, I realise that it might seem I am hanging on your every word at the moment, but I've a little story for you too.

This JVF (Jesus Volunteer Force) or, in the interests of equality, this JRA theory; em, that actually does seem to be one of the issues his disciples, be they the 'stooges', as you call them, or the unknown members of the 'Syndicate' (I want to believe), had to work through. Messiah was kind of expected to throw out the occupying forces and establish the monarchy again in Israel, The Kingdom of God; Messiahs were supposed to answer the question in Acts 1:6 with a, "Well, we're taking the city now boys, tally ho! Over the Boyne and onward!"

However, as you pointed out, he didn't, for, on arriving in Jerusalem he attacked the Temple not the Roman Garrison, effectively saying to Israel, what, funnily enough, Rodgers says in his poem, "Em, sorry boys, but you guys are actually the betrayer". Unsurprisingly the head honchos in the Temple took umbrage against this, seized their chance and had him 'done away with', not until however they had released Mr. Barabbas, who was, ironically enough it seems, a rebel leader and if you think about it a chappy with the same name as the guy they nailed for blasphemy.

Anyway, after all these shenanigans their Messiah was dead, hope of the rebellion was quashed, Rome continued to rule, and the Priesty boyos continued with all their 'Rendering onto Caesar' expediency and that no doubt would have been the end of the story if the defeated stooges hadnt gone and made up a ridiculous story about this erstwhile, defeated and humiliated Messiah having come back from the dead; some people, eh!

Peter, yes indeed. So you're a disciple who Truly Believed (TM), and suddenly the entire anchor point for the victory that you Really Really (C) believed was going to happen is gone. You have a choice:
1. Recognised that you had been sold a pup, and get on with your life, or:
2. Reinterpret the disaster as a victory of a *different sort*.

It's not rocket science - just basic psychology :-)

As for poor old Jesus, it is not *god* who makes him the Christ, but *us*. WE decide whether or not his story is a useful scaffold for us, and we can use him as a sort of parable to work through things.

Don't you think?

Well, my first thought is that William has kindly (although perhaps inadvertently) granted us a pretty little thread on Christian Atheism.

I shall rewrite your points (1) and (2) using the words of N.T. Wright, Simply Christian, page 95, pub. SPCK.

"The death of Jesus of Nazareth as the King of the Jews, the bearer of Israel's destiny, the fulfilment of God's promises to his people of old, is either the most stupid, senseless waste and misunderstanding the world has ever seen, or it is the fulcrum around which world history turns."

Seems you're currently with the former (but in an kind of deconstructed, reconstructed, about Jesus, but not actually about Jesus, being, rather, an immortalised possession of that which is truly the divine in all of us, way [see below] ) and I'm with the latter.

As for Christening Jesus, "WE decide whether or not his story is a useful scaffold for us, and we can use him as a sort of parable to work through things." That sounds a tad rockin' Rollins, awfully unlike you to tap your foot to that sort of beat! :-)

Oh and I think you missed my point about people expecting a new King and a new government and a new national identity centred on the overthrow of the oppressor, actual, realisable, in Israel, in their day, anything, anything short of this was a failure.

But in one way you're right, it was a different sort of victory, very different.

Hi Peter, I *enjoy* the Rollins PoMo stuff, even though it's nuttier than a KP lorry, and after a medium-sized dose, it becomes a bit too much. Very entertaining. All things in moderation. Well, the death of Jesus isn't the greatest tragedy etc the world has ever seen - he was just a man, and he had a lot of opportunities in his life. The death of a child from diarrhoea in the developing world is a far greater tragedy. Oh of course many people have used their warped understanding of Jesus to inflict enormous horror on other people (another reason why a *real* god would not use this perverse implement that we call "faith" or "religion"), so potentially Jesus did herald the greatest tragedy to afflict humanity. It's a pity we didn't figure it out earlier. But we live with the wreckage of our history all around us. Our responsibility is not to the past, but to each other here and now, and those who come after us.

But is it (the death of Jesus - funny the "resurrection" isn't mentioned; it's not as if Pilate didn't crucify dozens of Davidic pretenders) a fulcrum on which world history turns? That again is over-egging things to the point of melodrama. Every event has a part to play in the crazy chaos (in the mathematical sense) that his human history. There is no fulcrum. The size of the avalanche has nothing to do with the size of the snowflake that sets it off. If we weren't killing ourselves over Jesus, we'd find someone else.

A side point, of course - without Judas's "betrayal", Jesus could never have completed his "mission". Quite why Judas is therefore painted as the Bad Guy is therefore not entirely clear. I can't quite recall the details, but isn't there a sect that claim that *Judas* was crucified, and Jesus escaped? Then, when the body was being disposed of, it was tossed into the Potter's Field, with all the stuff about the guts etc. Can't remember where I came across that. Any help?

Yea Helio, I used to smile at the Ikon (the k is important, don't you think) stuff too, very cutting hedge, until it occurred to me that they might be taking it seriously, and there are only so many ways to remake the Jesus story, only so many ways to have 'Jesus without Jesus', only so many times you can spell theism with an 'a', before you say to yourself, here, all this is fine and dandy but is there anyone here who knows How (not) to Speak about Nothing? All too Winnie the Pooh, if you ask me.

You'd be better off fishing, which, interestingly, is what Peter thought, in between, no doubt, writing the script for the resurrection, "You know boys," he must have said, "fishing's not what it used to be, why don't we say that Jesus is still alive and, never mind Jerusalem, let's take on the whole Empire, that Caesar one needs a bit of a shake up. You stay here and I'll phone Spartacus, see how many he can round up. Yes! I promise you, a new Rome. A new Italy, and a new Empire."

As for Judas being crucified, no idea, I hadn't heard that one before, but sure, no worries, we can just go right on ahead and make it up, you and me, I bet we could do as good a job a Peter R, we could leave our day jobs, tour the world, set up a TV channel and who knows, ca-ching!

On another point, who was it said, "the death of Jesus (was) the greatest tragedy etc the world has ever seen"?, I don't remember coming across that before. Any ideas? And of course, any death is a tragedy.

Here, this is important, this (TM) and (C) business, you used it on another thread too, are you claiming some kind of Trade Mark or Copyright on certain words and phrases? Is this a cunning plot to prepare such for a forthcoming book on the life of Atheist Christians?

Please explain, for if it is, I'm claiming the term 'Christian Atheist' (TM) (C), ha! you're done for now!