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Ruskin the Dog died 1 year ago tonight. So I am off up the Glen with a bottle to sit by the river where we seperated and went our seperate ways. Till we met again. .

Thanks to all from the NN blog who have visited his page and your kind words.

Celtic Lion

Hi Celtic Lion,

best wishes to you, could I ask where the page is,

BubblegumTriffid

Dont care which end its coming from its good to see you presenting Martha. I always wished you would present NN. Unfortunately I'm in a haze of Amoxicillin and delirium so may well miss my chance to see a rare NN Martha presentation.

May the Buzz be with you.

LIFE IS A TERMINAL ILLNESS

As some of you might have gathered, I have recently become acquainted with the care-home industry.

I am of the opinion that care homes serve as storage facilities for the 'waiting-dead' a kind of purgatory for a considerable number of inmates. The idea that a person with a terminal condition is any more deserving of death than a highly rational man, robbed of all previous activity - mental and physical - WHO IS CALLING FOR IT DAILY, is just SO typically British. None of us ask to be born, the least we can do is shove off as we see appropriate.

There is no god - there are loads of them, and all bogus. 'Life' is not a precious gift, it is a phenomenon of precisely arranged 'death' - which is why you turn into dead stuff when disarranged, e.g. by an IED.
The dead and the 'afterlife' - have never done more than tell someone where uncle George's missing cuff-links are. They never said a word about missing WMD.

No wonder Dawkins gets out of his pram so often. How dim can a supposedly civilised, enlightened, scientific, rational, logical species be?

#2 bubblegum triffid



Sorry can't post much, just got back with empty bottle. If you don't know where I live. New Fazer has worked it out. God made where I live first and assembled the rest of the planet with the bits left.

So have just watched the sun set. Over a river in a valley just the trees.

Can't give you the page because it would get moderated. But my best friend was Ruskin. If you address me as Celtic Lion. I could only assume Google may also respect 3 words:

ruskin celtic lion

Obviously I have no control whatsoever where Google may direct you using those 3 words;).

Celtic Lion

barrie (#4) "How dim can a supposedly civilised, enlightened, scientific, rational, logical species be?"

It's a language problem isn't it? It's tyrannial.

Finally a classic NN presenter that can truly speak to the NN audiences.
After a week of a certain change in style that did not go down very well for some NN viewers...Martha is back to remind us all how much we really miss her interviewing skills and style. Tonight's programme was by far the best of the week (I dare say beating also Peter Mandelson's cameo a couple of days ago). Well done to the presenter and team of producers for resuscitating the programme from its summer hiatus style.

Hi,

thanks Celtic Lion,

and well done to Newsnight for the report on Hotel workers, I posted on the blog the other day a question, about what a particular programme had achieved, but a report like this can help a lot, please follow this up and ask the Government what they intend to do ,and environmental health people, tourist board etc, perhaps email the details to some news outlets overseas, might enourage the hoteliers to behave a better?

The Guardian ran a story on this
'Five-Star abuse, Migrant hotel workers blow the whistle',
in the Work section, 29.4.06 a report by Hsiao-Hung Pai,

perhaps you can compare notes from your reports and take this further in some way,

seems like the hotels dodged the issue when the Guardian ran the story perhaps if you work together, the combined pressure might lead to some changes?

best wishes and thanks again for this story,

I watched with interest the discussion tonight involving Andrew Motion and Andrew Roberts about the legacy of the first world war in terms of extension of franchise and the beginning of the end of deference. Incredibly the influence of the Russian revolution on working class thinking and ruling class fear was not mentioned though not really surprising considering the contributors. What a disappointment, and shallow discussion

Hi Celtic Lion

found your site, seems like a lot of others have put these search terms into google,

what a wonderful looking place

best wishes

the ultimate professional Martha Kearney hosted the show. I do wish she would do it on a permanent basis. Her and Emily are the best ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ female presenters and both know their stuff and are head and shoulders over some of the men we have at the moment. Peter Barron keep Martha on permanant duty.

I wonder if the lack of posts, tonight, can be explained by the programme's first report. The far-from-Earth-shattering news of contract workers' low pay may have caused a rash of switch-offs or switch-overs.

On the changes brought about by the First World War, one which Wilfred Owen's poem, "Dulce et Decorum Est", encapsulated, didn't last very long. My school's motto was "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori", emblazoned on the school organ; however the words and, by intimation, the sentiment, were obscured to the point of illegibility and incomprehension, on a headmaster's instruction, when a painting of the organ was commissioned. You see, to think it is sweet and fitting to die for one's country isn't on; not the done thing. I hadn't ever thought, previously, that the type of person found as headmaster at my secondary school could have so much in common with the loony left.

# 10 Bubblegum triffid

Too drunk to post. Glad you found an oasis that others sometimes refer to. If not comments, emails.

Please drop by again.

#4
Mr Singleton
Sorry to read you are in trouble and in a purgatory establishment.
Perhpas it's the time to stop puppeting.

11. At 11:56pm on 30 Jul 2009, leftieoddbod wrote:
Peter Barron keep Martha on permanant duty.

As it seems many who author posts do not subsequently read them much less reply, I do believe that the new editor is indeed another Peter, but Mr. Barron is now off promoting Google.

Didn't watch, but I have to say the prospect of 'an expert on cleaning' was almost intriguing, but just not quite enough to stay up for.

mimpromptu (#14) I'm pretty sure many people would sorely miss barrie's contributions to this blog. Criticisms such as your's and thegangofone's tend to be the exception. I suggest you take a cue from that.

When you aren't twirling, have a look at this and let me know what you think (you'll need to read the rest of the blog). Most people are so busy wit hthir immediate interests (usually themsleves) that they don't see the bigger picture which determines even their own interests.

#14 mim I think this comment is uncalled for. Barrie has a brother who is very ill, it' a bit cruel to jibe at him. And having had old relatives in hospital and care homes, I can sympathise, and dread ever ending up there myself.

MY ONLY SIN? (#14 and #16)

(Apart from personal, rude health) is lack of clarity.

My brother (76 - left side stroke) is in a VERY CARING care home. It is a pleasure to visit - until I enter my brother's room and empathise with his personal hell.

The point I was clearly failing to make (#4) was that as none of us ask for life, we must surely have some right to die?

I maintain that a rational male with no issue - brother and sister 72 and 74 respectively - has close to ABSOLUTE right to die, on his request.

I shall certainly return here to be advised otherwise - but please leave out any suggestion that 'life' is a discrete 'thing'.

Cheers JJ.

I was pottering around while listening to the first item on NN, so didn't really hear it all. Although like the others I like Martha Kearney.

I notice very few have commented on it. I feel the reason for that is that it doesn't come as any surprise to any of us. Why do the government import all these immigrants, it IS so that wages will be kept low, and people work very long hours. I feel sorry for these people and many in other jobs, but the fact is big business and this Labour government want it.

Many years ago I worked in the City of London area, I also worked odd hours. I met a lot of the cleaners that came in to clean the offices. Most were middle aged women from the eastend, I often chatted to them, they didn't feel under pressure to rush around and do a crap job. They came, chatted, worked hard, did a good job and then left. Those people no longer exist in London, they have all moved to Kent, Sussex, Essex etc. They were forced out by overwhelming immigration, ask them, they will tell you their area changed so much, they couldn't stand it.

I'm not having a go at muslims, who live close to the city, but what muslim man would allow his wife to go off and clean offices in the City these days. It would be improper in their eyes, they might show an ankle or a wrist to some man, and would be dishonoured. They also can't speak english, so no chatting to other workers. This problem has been brought about because of our sloppy way of importing people, and then exploiting them, which I'm fully aware of. And doesn't the government feel ashamed at encouraging all these lower paid people from the eastern block, to come here and work hard and be exploited.

I know foreign farm workers who are exploited in the same way. They work extremely hard and very long hours, and are often young, so fit and energetic. I've also picked fruit, I did it with a mixed gang of local people, usually women. They also chatted, had a laugh, and worked hard. But they didn't work in the pouring rain, or long hours, usually a 37 - 40 hour week. They also picked the fruit to a high standard, and were checked on, they took a pride in the job. Did you know any fruit picked in the rain is more susceptible to damage. Obviously we only got paid for the hours we did, but imagine if there isn't enough fruit to pick these foreign people don't earn any money which must be a disaster for them. And I certainly wouldn't have liked to pick strawberries laying on my stomach at the back of a stinking diesel tractor for any length of time. And yet the foreign young men said it was no problem! Tough lot aren't they?!

I'm also sick to death of the tired old quote, "british people won't do these jobs". Have you asked them? How do you know? It wouldn't be worth a cleaner commuting to London to a low paid job. And as 1 in 3 people are foreign living in London now, there aren't enough indigenous people living there to do the work. Foreign people don't seem to mind how their living standard is, probably because they are poorer than the poorest indigenous person here. So they will do any work.

About 15 years ago I was talking to a teacher from a secondary school. She commented that nowadays all her pupils expected to get a highly paid job, that was comfortable and clean, or go on to further education. BUT as she pointed out, most of them were not clever enough, and should go for work as plumbers, painters, electricians, bin men, shop workers, cleaners. So that chimes in very neatly with something JJ would say! What annoyed her was the false expectation these pupils were made to believe. She wasn't against these artisan jobs, she felt they could earn good money, and have a reasonbable life. But with all the hype about how wonderful they must all be told they were, it gave everyone a false perspective. Just look how we could have done with those skilled workers in recent years!

Now I'll shut up, or put another way, I'll get me coat.

'ON YER BIKE' = BALKANIZATION/INDIVIDUATION

ecolizzy (#19) "What annoyed her was the false expectation these pupils were made to believe. She wasn't against these artisan jobs, she felt they could earn good money, and have a reasonbable life. But with all the hype about how wonderful they must all be told they were, it gave everyone a false perspective. Just look how we could have done with those skilled workers in recent years!"

Very nicely put. That's a perspective on recent trends which deserves a lot of careful thought in the context of all this constant talk of globalism and anti-nationalism, which in my view is just an alternative way of bringing workers in rather than colonizing abroad to make use of cheap labour. Only rootless cosmopolitans aka internationalists would ever think of doing such a thing, I suggest as many people can't/don't/won't move because they have strong family, community ties/duties.

Addendum (#20) For those who don't remember Tebbit, the 'conservatve' (anarchists if you look into it) party mantra was taht there is no such thing as society. That means no community, family, etc... Hence 30 years of narcissitic selfishness which is great for consumerism and naked capitalism, but terrible for nationalism and socialism, hence all the anti-nazi, BNP etc propaganda.

Martha's programme on who killed the honey bee is excellent. It was shown again earlier in the week so might still be on i player.

If you haven't seen it, it is recommended. It shows Martha is one of the few presenters that understands more about what is going on than the 'just climate change' fluff the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ normally peddle.

Like others glad to see MK back. It really is time to give the tired regulars a long run in the reserves and put your decent anchors down more often. One quibble. The thing about hotel staff was quite interesting even if it went on a bit long but surely it belonged in the evening current affairs/consumer slots on ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ2. Didn't it?

good bit of investigative journalism on NN.

there is a definite niche for that sort of thing now hardly anyone does it.

Hi,

I loathe criminals, the sort in the news today and would give them extremly lenghty sentences but the hacker threatened with extradition is not in my view a criminal,

what is really behind all this?

the whole thing seems cruel and barbaric,

ECOLIZZIE #19 - A TRULY TELLING POST

I have posted on the insidious nature of British corruption (even got told-off). You have fleshed it out nicely, while JJ highlights the 'supporting structures' so well.

But still we must be impotent spectators to the illusion of the (5th?) Iraq enquiry - Blair and IDS wandering off into the (golden) sunset - and then watch the Westminster charade continue. But REJOICE! If the Tories PRE-SELECT three, party-loyal, wannabe candidates, such that we can CHOOSE, is this not a major advance in DEMOCRACY? Well - no.

The only viable spoke an emasculated electorate can put in this juggernaut Westminster Wheel, is to elect a maximum number of independents and

SPOIL PARTY GAMES.

(Other than that it's a military coup led by outspoken generals followed by duped, disaffected squaddies.)

MARTHA

I didn't bother to comment because she is so obviously 'bigger than the job'. Does she win any awards? Not 'edgy' enough perhaps?? Shall we award her the NN blog-posters' Award of Unobtrusive Style and Excellence??? (:o)

#25 Bubblegum

Hi

Like you I feel there is something going on. There is also this extradition and getting people out of Guantanimo Bay lurking in the back ground. All these deals about not revealing torture etc.

Has the UK anything the US wants in return?

THOU SHALT NOT INCITE VIOLENCE OR LIVE OFF IMMORAL EARNINGS.

In recent times 'moral hazard' has been a pet phrase of politicians. My comment above #26, regarding 'insidious British corruption', returned my thoughts to governance funded by alcohol (an established inciter to violence). The swathe of sickness (physical and mental) with ensuing social consequences, that arises from wilfully imbibing organic solvent (was Mohammed on to something?) surely should inhibit any decent person (or government) from profiting from its sale? (And I haven't even started on tobacco.)

What hope has any society that uses war as an 'easy option' (against the less monstrously equipped) and poisons, degrades and kills its own, to fund the former disgrace with tax on the latter?

Definitely NOT a topic for Newsnight.

Really good work from Martha

There's 3 days left on i-player

/programmes/b00jzjys

Note the true reality is emerging ecological system collapse.

Climate change is soundbite politica/media superficiality, concealing the real problem

This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the house rules. Explain.

On the UFO hacker could somebody illuminate the issue of whether the hackers claims that he did not in fact cause much of the destruction of files and so on?

In fairness he must know that if you apparently start moving US Navy ships around remotely they are going to be cross.

Hotel Cleaning Staff

At the interview of your undercover reporter , I heard -
Interviewee
And could you tell me how much do you pay ?

Employer Rep
£5.73 per hour , but you have to clean two rooms and a half per hour. If you don't you don't get that.

Interviewee
So if I clean less than two rooms I receive less money

Employer Rep again
Two rooms and a half.

So there seemed to be confusion from the outset.

But I understood it, the employer was saying spend 20 -24 minutes on each hotel room. Presumably because that's the level of service the cleaning company was contracted to provide to the hotel ?

Later on, your reporter said words to the effect that the cleaning company said 34 minutes should be spent on cleaning a suite, presumably because suites are larger than normal hotel rooms ?

But then that raises a question , if the cleaning company stated (whom did they say this too ? ) 34 minutes should be spent on cleaning a suite , then did they also state clearly the time allotted for cleaning each normal sized hotel room or was it left to the employee to workout (eg 60 minutes divided by 2.5 rooms) ?

Maybe the real problem here is that the contract between the hotel and cleaning company seemed not to be measured by how effectively a room was cleaned (eg by outcome), it seemed by your report it was solely time based ?

I would think the lower management at the hotel who negotiated this contract is at best going to get sent on a course or two.

Or maybe I have completely misunderstood the whole report ?


Assisted Suicide

I believe Laws should be understandable , so any clarification of a Law must be welcomed.

Off Topic

Afghanistan

Maybe it is only me, but I think the explanation of the increase in casualties this month has not been very well expressed , and rightfully people question the human cost. I recently came across what to my mind used to be knows as , you might want to read the Army's explanation of their part in the recent ISAF mission.

On a different note but on the same subject , there is somewhat damming admission from the government today, , and if like me you like reading other peoples views on issues the comment section is worth a read too.

And finally on a broader issue ,there has been another announcement today, this time about EuroFighter, the picks up the story.

bubblegumTriffid (#25) "I loathe criminals, the sort in the news today and would give them extremly lenghty sentences but the hacker threatened with extradition is not in my view a criminal,"

Take note:- you are simply telling everyone that you don't know the law, and perhaps, the difference between right and wrong.

Hi,

there is a difference between the 'law' it seems and what is right and wrong,

whoever we are, how we treat others is key, to me it doesnt matter how something is dressed up, ie by a law, if an action is immoral that is exactly what it is,

a law does not justify an action which is wrong or cruel

best wishes

Hi KingCelticLion

#28

our servility perhaps?

as well as asking for something that is quite wrong, is humiliating a country considered to be your closest ally a good idea? demonstrating that anything goes, ie extraditing the hacker is clearly immoral and unncecessary, but they are asking for it anyway, no other country would show this level of subservience, what really is going on here? how do they do it?

best wishes

bubblegumTriffid

Nos 34 is a typical bating tactic of JJ . he/she/it probably gets off-on it.

Best not to concern yourself with the off-on-it and just post your views.

EXTRADITION - RENDITION - USA

So there is good reason to suspect that America treats prisoners brutally. How, then. is it legal to hand over the computer hacker?
(Perhaps it doesn't count if you ship them to another country or a non-state for the beatings?)

Noticeable that the ³ÉÈË¿ìÊÖ Office always uses PRESENT TENSE. "We DO not condone or practice torture." Perhaps they DID before getting rumbled?
Any chance they might be questioned in the past tense NN?

bubblegumTriffid (#35) "there is a difference between the 'law' it seems and what is right and wrong"

Not in the world we live in (especially today). :-(

Listening to people say what they think HMG should and should not do in recent times is quite depressing as they clearly don't understand how their behaviour is constrained by the law.

Ironically, neither the USA nor Israel are signed up to the ICC. Yet what we are seeing in this hacking/extradition case is another step towards international law taking precedence over domestic law. Another is EU law.

The rest is derivative. You need to come to terms with this. 'Wrong' outside of the law is mere venality, and it's handsomely rewarded, alas.

streetphotobeing (#37) Clearly the antibiotics did't help you think any more clearly. You to need to understand how sophisticated behaviour is controlled by verbal contingencies embedded in laws.

Please try not to post nonsense.

Few commented on the inside story of hotel cleaners so maybe I'll get the last word on the bigger issue of Minimum Wage policy - I'm agin it!

When it was drafted (1998?)I was surprised that it included no mention of work content/output/minimum inputs, etc., but then I would be, as Work Study/Job Evaluation/Remuneration were my career. (I risk the tag of 'narcissism' here, but wish to show that my view is not a subjective one, but based on long experience in several industries and governments)

The subject of 'Equality' intrudes once again. Yet in every country I worked it was a fact that locals were paid less that expats for the same job titles. Obviously, developing nations could not afford to pay local employees international rates, and expats wouldn't take the many risks of overseas work unless rewarded by pay at least equal to those in home country - plus various allowances and incentives. I have 'put down' many riots over such alleged unfairnesses and have many tried and tested solutions, but won't expand on that aspect here. The point is that there are exceptions to 'equality' as always.

My wife works in UK as a Care Assistant and gets minimum wage as it is classed as unskilled, though demanding many personal attributes. She, and hundreds like her, accept the UK Min Wage as she earns in one hour what it would take several days to earn back home, assuming that work could be found there. Even adjusting for cost of living the multiple in earnings UK v Africa/Asia is so vast that I was right to fear that it would be an additional driving force for immigration. Other UK benefits and standard of life are so disparate with those in poor countries that there was already more than enough pressure on immigration. This ensured that immigrants from most African and Asian countries would never return home (unlike some from Eastern Europe).

MinWage law should have made special provision for such immigrants.

Also, all job descriptions normally include minimum inputs, such as education and previous experience requirements - particularly relevant with immigrants is knowledge of English language 'sufficient to understand written and oral instructions'. The lack of English ability not only lowers the comparative efficiency of many immigrants, but also offends against Health & Safety on-the-job. In turn, this has given rise to Gang Masters from the immigrant community, who can minipulate and exploit their fellow-countrymen and women, and has disadvantaged indigenous employers (eg Chinese Cocklers, fruit pickers, corner stores and smaller supermarket chains such as NISA and Costcutters, most of which seem to recruit only their own people).

In the Hotel Care case, it appears that required output standards were not stated clearly, and appear to be unreasonable. Payment by results was a major factor in my career and this government has shown an over concern with targets, therefore employers should be encouraged to employ people on contracts stipulating payment levels for stated output levels, rather than impose a fixed Mimimum Hourly rate irrespective of output.

We all employ workers such as gardeners, cleaning staff, windowcleaners, plumbers, and other tradesmen by agreeing with them a rate for the completion of a task, wth no involvement of minimum wages. This should be the way to reduce the burden on employers of more and more UK and EU employment legislation bringing with it more and more outsourcing of work and unemployment for our own people.

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Honestly, I feel sorry for these migrant workers from Eastern Europe. Now that the economy is in recession, they are at the centre of blame for unemployment problem, and yet, they are actually victims themselves, often stuck doing back-breaking work at below the minimum wage notwithstanding the high costs of living in the UK.

Where are those highly skilled jobs in the manufacturing and services sectors? The indigenous Brits with adequate education and training should be in these jobs that pay decent wages, instead of competing with migrant workers, most of whom can barely speak English, and thus have no choice but to take up low skilled physical work at whatever hourly wage they can get. In my opinion, the underlying problem is with the structure of the economy, which had its competitive advantages eroded by an uncompetitive business environment largely due to government policies. As a result, the export industries have shrunk considerably; people are losing work because businesses (being the profit maximizing bast***s they are) relocate themselves overseas. This weeks report on the close of wind turbine factory in Isle of Wight is just another example.